Two man cockpit at all times and cargo carriers.

[NacelleStrake]

How are the air-freight industry going to implement this if some flight's are normally a two man operation?

[DaveReidUK]

The two-person rule has existed in the US for many years. It doesn't apply to all-cargo operations. There is no reason to think that any corresponding new rules or SARPS from EASA or ICAO would either.

[airseb]

Plus you almost never have a reinforced door on a cargo!

What we have is a curtain...

[DaveReidUK]

There is no reason to think that any corresponding new rules or SARPS from EASA or ICAO would either.And indeed, now it's been published, the EASA recommendation can be seen to apply only to aircraft with more than 60 seats flying with 2 or more cabin crew.

[grounded27]

N-reg freighters require an IRCD. The 763-F has no supernumerary compartment, the ****ter is in the cockpit as well. Most cargo flights have either a jump seater or supernumerary crew on board. It is a rare event that there are only 2 pilots in a freighter, the loss of life is minimal unless one could plan for a ground target. Think we need to quit being afraid of our own shadow yet a simple fix would be for a modification to allow ground crew to secure the IRCD open in the rare event of only 2 pilots alone in an aircraft.

[Intruder]

It is a rare event that there are only 2 pilots in a freighter, the loss of life is minimal unless one could plan for a ground target.
Hmmm... I fly in "rare events" in a 747F several times a month, then...

Your second premise is EXACTLY the mind set that allowed the FAA to create the "cargo carve-out" in their new FAR 117 crew rest requirements. There is little regard for the pilots in the airplane; ONLY the legal and financial liability for the passengers is important any more.

If UPS6 had landed in the middle of Dubai instead of in the desert, or if UPS 1354 had landed in downtown Birmingham instead of a rural field, maybe some eyes (including yours) would have been opened...

[grounded27]

If UPS6 had landed in the middle of Dubai instead of in the desert, or if UPS 1354 had landed in downtown Birmingham instead of a rural field, maybe some eyes (including yours) would have been opened...


Both of these losses were a result of negligence upon the crew and company, there was no violent intent, what is your point here? How is this relevant?

[Intruder]

It is a response to your callous assertion:
It is a rare event that there are only 2 pilots in a freighter, the loss of life is minimal

[DaveReidUK]

Sounds more like a simple statement of fact to me.

If Lubitz had been a F/O on, say, a Lufthansa 747-8F and flown it into the same mountain, he would at most have killed a handful of people.

[grounded27]

??? Ok yes call it callous assertion, your examples are insignificant they have no damn relevance to the issues at hand!

[Intruder]

Sounds more like a simple statement of fact to me.

If Lubitz had been a F/O on, say, a Lufthansa 747-8F and flown it into the same mountain, he would at most have killed a handful of people.
Actually, there are 2 parts to his assertion, and only one of them MIGHT come close to fact:
It is a rare event that there are only 2 pilots in a freighter, the loss of life is minimal
The first, regarding a "rare event", is certainly false. There are MANY freighters flying around with only 2 pilots. There are also some (though a diminishing number) flying around with only 1 pilot.

The second, regarding loss of life, could be considered as partially true, based solely on past events. However, it cannot be considered true in general, because a freighter could well crash in a populated area. We have been fortunate that all such crashes to date have been in unpopulated areas, though it is easy to extrapolate what could have happened if UPS 6 had crashed closer to DXB, in the city...

[DaveReidUK]

However, it cannot be considered true in general, because a freighter could well crash in a populated area. We have been fortunate that all such crashes to date have been in unpopulated areas

Not quite - the EL Al 747F that hit two Amsterdam apartment blocks in October 1992 killed 39 residents, possibly more.

[Intruder]

Before cell phone cameras and youtube -- ancient history! :ugh: