23 DFCs [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

27th Mar 2015, 08:38

Let's not get too carried away - this was not the Battle of Britain and we (thankfully) didn't lose a single crew.

Have a thought for those on the ground who really were in constant danger - where so many came home with life-changing injuries. Any of those in the SH force?

You ought to listen to comments from other arms about the distribution of medals....

Unchecked

27th Mar 2015, 08:58

Crab - are you for real?

If you bother to read some of the DFC citations you'll see just how close to being casualties some of those crews were. Lives on the line in valiant attempts to get those wounded soldiers back to the care they needed to save their lives. Of course, the crews themselves would be the last to tell you all about it.

Crass

rock34

27th Mar 2015, 09:07

I'll bite Crab. Having been on the ground with the 'other arms' and called in Tricky, Pedro, Ugly and all the others to come get us out of the dwang on numerous occasions, then I can tell you that the 'other arms' had nothing but praise for all* the aircrew that assisted us.

*Maybe not the Moltens who dropped us way off target but they were let off when they picked us up......

[email protected]

27th Mar 2015, 09:48

Unchecked - if getting shot at in Afghan was the requirement for a medal then every soldier on patrol would have a chestful.

I'm not showing a lack of respect for the SH force, just trying to keep the chest beating in perspective.

Out of interest, how many DFCs did the AH force get awarded by comparison?

Hempy

27th Mar 2015, 10:33

13,000 casualty uplifts? I'm not denying the number but there must more than British casualties lifted.

p.s crab. 2 VC's, 4 GC's, 36 DSO's, 33 CGC's, 194 MC's

Tankertrashnav

27th Mar 2015, 10:36

User:Necrothesp/List of recipients of the Distinguished Flying Cross (United Kingdom), 1948?present - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Necrothesp/List_of_recipients_of_the_Distinguished_Flying_Cross_%28Unit ed_Kingdom%29,_1948%E2%80%93present)

Old Duffer - if you take a look at the list of DFC awards on the link, you will see that all of the RAF recipients have been officers, the only NCO recipients being from the AAC. I am unfamiliar with the make up of Chinook crews, but I am assuming rear crews will be exclusively NCOs, so the assumption is that only pilots (probably aircraft captains) have been getting DFCs. (The list only goes up to 2012 so there may be more recent awards to NCOs that I am not aware of.) 'Twas ever thus, in WW2 the ratio of DFCs/DFMs was over three to one, in spite of the numerical superiority of NCO aircrew over commissioned.

Speaking realistically, in most cases it's a crew effort, and if there's one medal going, the captain's going to get it. After all, if it all goes wrong it's his (or her) neck that's on the block.

crab - taking your general point about the disparity in awards between ground and air forces, once again this was also the case in WW2, with the numbers of DFCs/DFMs exceeding the number of MCs/MMs awarded, in spite of the numerical superiority of the army over the RAF. Incidentally you can also check the link to answer your question about army recipients of the DFC

SimonK

27th Mar 2015, 10:48

Ok I'll bite too Crab. Your previous comments on here about SH lead me to the belief that you have a fundamental lack of knowledge about SH, a lack of knowledge about JHC, lack of knowledge of operations and a disdain for anything rotary not yellow.

I'm led to believe from colleagues and friends who knew you on SAR that you are not quite the weapons grade tool and Internet troll that you normally come across as on PPRune, in fact most said that you were 'usually' ok.

You could extrapolate your crass comment across to what the rest of the RAF might have thought every time we read in Pravda about yet another AFC awarded for a long range SAR op in bad weather......if you were childish and pathetic. However most of us acknowledge the respect due for trying operations in challenging circumstances, bit like the SH force (and others of course) in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Let them have their moment to pause and reflect on a successful but trying period and go back to where you belong and are truly in your comfort zone: bitching and moaning about civilian SAR on PPRune :E

chinook240

27th Mar 2015, 10:57

SimonK, well said.

Herod

27th Mar 2015, 11:22

It shows how easy we had it in other times. Back in the '70s I was on SH and sported a GSM with bars for South Arabia and Northern Ireland (before it became bloody) and a UN medal for Cyprus. These guys now are REALLY working for their pay. Well done to all, front and back crews.

air pig

27th Mar 2015, 13:29

Crab, you can't get out of an SH helicopter and take cover, your sat in a nice big target for incoming.

To the guys and girls who fly SH, you have a magnificent record and with the MERT you have contributed in order of 97% survivability of those injured both military and civilian, everything from a twisted ankle to soldiers with injuries on the order of Cpl Ben Parkinson. The legacy left by the aircrew and medical teams of such improved care is amazing and on going. In the words of Squadron Leaders Charlie Thompson-Edger and Fiona McGlynn both PMRAFNS, 'what we do is provide morale to the ground forces as they know if they are injured we will come and get them. Charlie Thompson-Edger has just been awarded the ARRC for her work in developing MERT to what you see today and also in developing post trauma mental health. A friend works with C T-E, she said she is the most unassuming person you could meet, and is embarrassed by all the publicity.

Anything like this is a team effort.

The Cryptkeeper

27th Mar 2015, 14:30

Crab,

I don't post much on here but I am a bit surprised at your comment. For what it's worth I was privileged to be crewed with SSgt Bertie Banfield as part of Gazelle Flight on Telic 1 in 2003 with 663 Sqn AAC for which he as awarded the DFC after multiple missions in contact with a determined enemy at low level. In 2012 I was lucky enough to fly AH on Herrick 15/16 during which time I witnessed the courage of professionalism of the Chinook crews.

After the Iraq experience I must admit I felt a certain empathy with them flying into hostile areas at low level in unarmoured helicopters. I certainly don't take anything away from those AH crews that have been awarded gallantry medals for their undoubted courage but for the majority of the time flying an Apache at 2000' above Helmand is probably one of the safest places to be! In fact I'd go as far to say that most AH pilots are quite keen for the enemy to take a pop at them because we can turn around and very quickly hit back hard (as the Taliban found to their cost early on in the campaign). Not so in other aircraft types.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, to me, 23 DFCs genuinely is a reflection of the danger that the Chinook Force (and Lynx, Sea King, Pedro etc) faced - a record that they can be justifiably proud of. I've yet to meet the infanteer that would disagree.

All the best

Chimpy

Evalu8ter

27th Mar 2015, 16:22

SimonK,
I know what it must have been like now being in the next office to me - good rant!!

I've had the pleasure of flying with crab, briefly, and can confirm he's highly professional - but understandably a bit bruised as his way of life has been sold off to the lowest bidder so I'm prepared to cut him some slack.

Crab - I see your point: I have the utmost of respect for those I watched 'walk out the door' or run off my ramp. Heaven knows where we find such people in this country nowadays but thank God they still exist. Immense courage, and doing it for each other - not for Blair, Brown or Cameron. We did get some people hurt, at least one Chinook pilot has been invalided out due to a gunshot wound - and we know that the spectre of PTSD stalks us all, and it has already claimed some.

ex-fast-jets

27th Mar 2015, 20:24

I dabbled with helos during my time.

I always enjoyed my brief time flying them - and I was usually very impressed with the folk operating them.

So I am not at all surprised that they have done a superb job on all operations from the Falklands to the more recent Afghan adventure.

Who gets the gong will always be contentious - but to the drivers who got their DFCs, I say very well done, and to those who were in the crew of those who got the DFC, I say that in your own mind, you know that what you did was brave, important, no doubt saved lives, and was a major part of the recognition that generated the DFC. At the end of the day, it is what you think of yourself and your colleagues under fire that is important.

We should all be proud of what our younger comrades have achieved in recent years, and we should all hope that we would have done as well if we had been put under the same pressure and danger.

Great effort by all - aircrew and groundcrew. Welcome home, and may you get a proper break with your families before the next adventure begins!

Old-Duffer

28th Mar 2015, 06:14

I have the greatest respect for the SH force, having dabbled in it when the cabs were called 'SRT' short range transport. I am delighted that the perseverance and courage shown, has brought forth due reward.

I must return to the unfairness of the system which fails to reward the rear crew. Furthermore, I don't have the figures but think that the supporting ground crew were similarly inadequately honoured. As an aside but pertinent to this, I would like to see a breakdown of the meritorious, rather than bravery awards, given the Army v RAF v RN and numbers deployed. I know multiple deployments will probably skew the figures but it would be an interesting exercise.

Apart from the major who wrote his own citation, I offer my congratulations to all those rewarded but we still need a fairer system.

Old Duffer

PS Perhaps we need to have something like the Air Medal which shows operational commitment

Basil

28th Mar 2015, 09:41

Impressive! As a 'plank' who has only flown in rotary twice of his own free will - once before I knew any better ;) and once to please a colleague who wanted to show me how he could insert his 'angry palm tree' into a hill clearing - I've thought of the situation in the ME of being low, slow and very obvious to the bad guys. Day after day - respect!.

I'll probably have the honour of saying hello at an annual reunion I attend at the new Chinook base.

Heathrow Harry

29th Mar 2015, 10:25

what disapoints me is that the Great British Public will have to wait 30 years to find out who these brave men & women are......................

Tankertrashnav

29th Mar 2015, 10:39

HH - if you are referring to the DFC recipients then that is not the case. Read my link which I gave earlier (post 12) - all names up to 2012 are listed, with the relevant LG date.

walter kennedy

29th Mar 2015, 15:47

41,000 hrs on operations!
How was the airworthiness?
Was the MOK Chinook just bad luck or was airworthiness just a smokescreen to blanket other aspects, one wonders?

Heathrow Harry

29th Mar 2015, 16:46

Thanks tankertrash - good to see it

Pity the press don't feature some of these guys ............

ShyTorque

29th Mar 2015, 17:01

How was the airworthiness?
Was the MOK Chinook just bad luck or was airworthiness just a smokescreen to blanket other aspects, one wonders?

It was a whitewash, Walter, as you well know. Please leave that topic off this thread; it's inappropriate.

jonw66

29th Mar 2015, 17:28

Well said Shytorque was going to post something similar earlier but decided to take a step back.
Best
Jon

Old-Duffer

29th Mar 2015, 19:29

ShyTorque,

Many people don't believe the MOK was a whitewash but, of course, you are entitled to that view.

However, I agree - let's leave it off this Thread.

O-D

[email protected]

31st Mar 2015, 15:48

My only experience of SH was in NI back in the 80s so no, I don't have any 'real SH' background - but I seem to remember we got shot at, RPG'd, mortared and targeted by snipers all the time (and this in part of our own country) and took a great many IED-caused casualties to hospital. There were many brave things done and plenty of danger to face all with just a flare pistol and a GPMG to defend ourselves with and no other air support to call in.

Looking at the Wiki list it would appear that only 2 DFCs were awarded (1 RAF 1 AAC) during the many years we were there. Getting shot at by the enemy was just doing your job, not the reason for getting a medal.

I do appreciate the intensity of the threat faced by the SH force in Afghan and, as long as those many DFCs are meant to represent the collective effort made by the SH force, then that is fine; it is the same with AFCs in the SAR Force, many outstanding rescues go unnoticed but a few get the gongs - it is for the whole SAR force not the lucky individuals who got written up.

Some citations get massively embellished on both sides to ensure the award is given but getting shot at and then flying home isn't necessarily what I (and possibly a few of my generation) would consider deserving of such a high award.

I still applaud the efforts of the SH force for doing their job well in difficult circumstances.

Haraka

31st Mar 2015, 16:27

[email protected]
Yup .There in the mid 70's including flying with the AAC (particularly Beaver flight) and SH HeliDet.
GSM slid under the back door as an inconvenient after thought, after two consecutive roulements.

But ( as I was told at that time) , my Branch weren't officially supposed to be there then anyway ...................

( 106 IED jobs supporting the Army in those months during my initial tenure , without loss of life)
Then came back after a short leave, straight into the Cortreasa Bridge inquiry. (Q Garside etc.)

Thud_and_Blunder

31st Mar 2015, 17:58

Like Chimpy (regards from the TRI who called you 'Jim', btw!), I post here less frequently these days. However, Crab, I have to say that I don't think you realise just how different internal security in NI (not really SH, and having worked various different sides of several fences I feel qualified to pontificate) was/is from a theatre of war. By an order of magnitude, probably.

Yes, there were bombings, shootings and even the odd RPG popped-off in UK territory. Mortaring was a genuine threat too. Occasionally. In most cases the perpetrators were known, even tracked, but could only be countered iaw RoE which were appropriate to actions in support of the police.

You say:
I do appreciate the intensity of the threat faced by the SH force in Afghan - but I really don't think you do. The sheer volume of the threat (numbers, weapons, capability) faced by SH in Afghanistan (and Iraq), plus the rapidity of threat development as the opposition learned from their (and our) mistakes simply dwarves anything we 70s-90s heli drivers ever faced. Your ability to pop back to the mess after hours, or out to Maud's for ice-cream or even downtown Lisburn/wherever for a trip to the supermarket/cinema/pub indicates a totally different level of commitment to the conflict on both sides. PIRA/INLA and others generally liked to live to fight another day; not necessarily the case in recent conflicts.

You feel that your early exposure to non-yellow helis entitles you to make a judgement on what SH crews have faced. I strongly disagree, and find that but getting shot at and then flying home isn't necessarily what I (and possibly a few of my generation) would consider deserving of such a high award doesn't go anywhere near what people I have worked with had to face, let alone get written-up for. Your final comments have a whiff of 'damning with faint praise'. Not your finest submission, IMNSHO.

teeteringhead

31st Mar 2015, 18:05

T&B :ok: kjdaksjdm ';k;klffp;

Old-Duffer

31st Mar 2015, 20:20

This little spat brings to mind the phrase used in a book called : "101 Nights" - a novel about the ABC carrying Lancasters of 101 Sqn at Ludford Magna.

F/S nav (with BEM for gallantry) to pompous career sqn ldr, out to make a name (and a medal) for himself nearing the end of the war.

"Sir, it's not how many hours you've got, it's what you've got into the hours".

Old Duffer

[email protected]

1st Apr 2015, 13:05

Your final comments have a whiff of 'damning with faint praise'. Not your finest submission, IMNSHO. your interpretation of my written word is completely wrong - it was a genuine comment not intended in any 'sub-text' way from what the words actually say.

As for intensity of threat, this would normally be indicated by the casualty count - something the troops on the ground have suffered horribly.

We didn't lose a single crew (thank God) and I believe any aircraft lost were taken out by our own side to deny the kit and int on board to the enemy.

I get it that the crews worked long hours in **** conditions - life in a blue suit I think that is called - and the physical and emotional challenge of that work clearly took its toll on the crews in other ways than bullet wounds.

It was a good campaign by the SH Force (and all others involved) but, as I said earlier, it wasn't the Battle of Britain and 27 DFCs with no lives lost seems slightly at odds with some of the chest-beating. There is no doubting the bravery of the crews but were there really 27 occasions where really above and beyond levels of bravery were demonstrated?

At the end of the day, they all came back safe - which is what really matters.

ShyTorque

1st Apr 2015, 13:47

Crab,

Speaking as someone who had (I'm relieved to say) a rather less exciting RAF career, but helped train some of a previous generation of SH pilots, I think on this occasion, you are bang out of order. I haven't actually seen any chest beating from anyone, either here or elsewhere.

Hempy

1st Apr 2015, 13:59

Read the citations ffs

minigundiplomat

1st Apr 2015, 16:38

Crab,

You've dug yourself into a hole and are busy trying to lower in a JCB to make it deeper; in short you are being an arse.

There are things you don't know, because you don't need to know, but suffice to say several members of the Chinook Force literally have scars ( and sutured holes) that attest to the ferocity of the activity they were engaged in. The Junglies, Lynx, Apache and Merlin guys have similar experiences.

The occasional RPG or mortar in South Armagh does not compare with CASEVAC's when the LS looks like a scene from Star Wars, or a deliberate air assault into a heavily contested EF location.

Suggest you stop being such a dick, and commenting on something you don't understand. I have the greatest of respect for both the SAR Force and those that experienced NI close up at the height of the troubles, but you are coming across as uninformed, out of touch and a little bitter.

As a bottom line - I don't really think those who's hard won awards you feel the need to evaluate or validate really give a rats crap what you're opinion is anyway.

[email protected]

1st Apr 2015, 17:41

Well, pardon me for having an opinion, I'll leave it at that. Not the first time I have been personally attacked for daring to have a view on a subject and it surely won't be the last.

faarn

1st Apr 2015, 18:43

While Crab is getting a severe bashing I must admit to slightly agreeing with him. It is no coincidence that the majority were awarded to RAF crew (whether on exchange or not). I know of at least one that was strongly opposed to by RN personnel out there at the time to the point it was suggested disciplinary action may be more appropriate. While I do not agree any such action should have been brought, there was some merit to what was said.

The problem with inter service rivalry out there was at times embarrassing but I can't say it lead to undeserved DFCs. What I can say is if some RN and Army events had occurred to RAF crews they would have received DFCs and likewise the RN wouldn't have awarded many of the RAF DFCs. I do think that the RN is extremely reluctant to award medals rightly or wrongly.

All that said all the crews were there to do a job and a good job they did. Well done to all recipients of not just the DFCs but other awards such as MiD. BZ

kintyred

1st Apr 2015, 20:06

.....and one incident that a highly ranking army officer thought deserving of a DFC for an RAF pilot was rejected out of hand by the RAF flight commander.
I served in both NI and Afghan......no comparison.

Tankertrashnav

1st Apr 2015, 22:30

. I do think that the RN is extremely reluctant to award medals rightly or wrongly.

Historically the navy has been far more sparing in dishing out gongs than the other two services. In WW2, for example, fewer than 5,000 Distinguished Service Crosses were awarded to naval officers, in comparison with almost 22,000 DFCs. Things were more equal on the "lower deck", but here it was common practice for a ship to be awarded a number of DSMs, and these would be allocated by drawing lots, success in an action seen very much as a combined effort.

Maybe the members of an aircraft's crew should draw straws for the DFC - but somehow I can't see this happening!

MPN11

2nd Apr 2015, 08:58

Historically the navy has been far more sparing in dishing out gongs than the other two services. In WW2, for example, fewer than 5,000 Distinguished Service Crosses were awarded to naval officers, in comparison with almost 22,000 DFCs.

i have no wish to generate further acrimonious debate, but could that RN/RAF disparity be explained by the fact that RAF aircrew were engaged in combat on a daily basis, often in large numbers, whereas RN ships operated in smaller numbers and [surely?] were engaged in surface actions far less frequently?

Tankertrashnav

2nd Apr 2015, 09:05

Up to a point - but don't forget the submarines who were pretty busy throughout - plenty of scope for gallantry there I'd have thought.

But your point about the RAF is well taken - particularly in the case of Bomber Command who were, numerically speaking, at the top of the list of DFC/DFM recipients by a long way.

Tourist

2nd Apr 2015, 10:22

MPN11

The UK highest chance of death in WW2 was at sea on the convoys I believe. Admittedly that was the Merchant Marine, but the RN was there too, taking heavy hits. Remember that when a ship goes down the casualties are a lot worse.

British vessels lost at sea in World War 2 - major warships (http://www.naval-history.net/WW2BritishLosses1Major.htm)

It is easy to forget the Pacific war also if your attention is mostly on the RAF.

Incidentally, I also believe that the chances of death in the RAF were worst on Coastal Command, then Fighter, with Bomber command the safest....

MPN11

2nd Apr 2015, 11:19

Tourist, I hear what you say. Many good men lost in all types of service, and in all theatres.

However, as the debate is about the award of gallantry medals, I would just note that it's difficult to earn a gallantry award when your ship is torpedoed or bombed or hits a mine ... those events tend to be a bit one-sided, don't they?

(That's an horrendous list, isn't it!)

Tourist

2nd Apr 2015, 12:06

Yes, I would agree. It is difficult to do anything but fight when you are essentially going where the captain says.

St Nazaire raid and the like obviously excepted and they certainly got some gongs for that. Personally I'd have given all 600 odd of them a medal. Brave and Barking!

St Nazaire Raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid)

KG86

2nd Apr 2015, 12:06

The DFC recipients were not awarded the medals because they came under fire, they were mostly awarded because they deliberately flew into fire, to complete their mission, or to pick up the grievously injured soldier.

Flying a Chinook into these circumstances equates to driving a single-decker bus into no-mans-land in WW1. It becomes a bullet (and RPG) magnet.

Respect!

Thomas coupling

2nd Apr 2015, 13:29

Respect indeed...but lest not forget that for every person/unit awarded a gong, there goes 'virtually' every other human being on the front line....it just wasn't their 'moment' in history.
Most of us who are/were in the military and expected to go front line, knew the score and did our best. ALL of them deserve a medal in some shape or form for they are all brave people putting themselves in harm's way to better the chances of a safer future back home. No complaints, no unions, no compunction.

Next war please...............................................:mad:

chinook240

2nd Apr 2015, 21:29

"but getting shot at and then flying home isn't necessarily what I (and possibly a few of my generation) would consider deserving of such a high award."

I have read these words over and over and I'm amazed by the naivety of someone who was in the "military" but clearly has no idea of what happened over there. The loss of a Chinook, particularly with its precious cargo, would have been a game changer and it is due to the tactical and flying skills of the crews that this never happened.

Old-Duffer

3rd Apr 2015, 05:54

In reading the citations published and the blurb that comes with it, in many cases it is a deliberate and calculated decision to place oneself (and crew and cab) in harm's way. For whatever reason the guys and gals did that, often to bring aid to others who were at or close to death's door.

This is also a feature of many SAR citations but without the 'being shot at' bit.

The accounts we have read and heard about over recent years is probably in part responsible for a remarkable change in attitude amongst young people seeking to fly in the RAF. For many years in my youth and early part of service, young men (it was only boys in those days) wanted to be fighter pilots and I need not dwell further on that. Now, a very significant number of ATC cadets with whom I come in to contact, want to go rotary wing because they see that's where their skills will be most wanted/used. It is also perhaps interesting to see that the fast jet fraternity are less well represented around the tables of power than was once the case!

Ladies and gentlemen, let's stop this bickering re who should get a gong and did they really earn it. Those awards were well earned and richly deserved recognition. What does surprise me (and I've bitched about this elsewhere) is the awards system works against those in the back and - Oh By The Way, the odd DSO for leadership wouldn't have gone amiss.

Old Duffer