Hainan 787

[thatwasclose]

Hey Guys,

Anyone on the 787, or other aircraft with a 4 week on 4 week off roster. If so can you care to comment on how it is working out etc.

thanks

[gusf]

anyone recently joined HNA screening for the 787?
Im going in the end of april. Need some infos!
rgds

[Maisk Rotum]

"There are currently no expatriates on the 787 at Hainan". Quoted by an agency.

What remains to be seen is if the burden of paperwork, checks and rechecks (which can take up to a year if the China Southern experience is a guideline) that slows down the pipeline can somehow still meet the demand for pilots for 30 787s.

Lots of interest I suspect but who has a spare 11 days (including travel) to spend on a job interview?

A decade or more ago, getting flying in China was easy. Perhaps they suspected that what was rampant in their own country was rampant in the rest of the world and decided to up the ante on the paperwork burden.

[LimaVictor]

Does anybody know which bases are they offering? Can you be based anywhere you desire or anywhere were Hainan operates?

[skysx33]

DXB on 22nd and 23rd .... I be there !!
Slavery with EK is over !!

[Kapitanleutnant]

Evidently Hainan has listened to some issues brought up by the agencies regarding the length of the interviews. They are now broken up into I believe they said 2 days at a time but that means several trips to the interview site.

They are hiring 777 captains who will then be trained on the 787. Longreach also mentioned the 787's are mostly for US and Europe expansion.

Regards to foreign basing…. The airline needs to have from 6 to 8 pilots wanting to go to any particular base whether North America, Australia or European cities. They mentioned a few bases are full… I think it was Amsterdam and Melbourne. It seems it's a reverse type rostering system when based outside China.

1 month on, 1 month off…. WOW!!!

K

[Maisk Rotum]

There are no expats on the B787 so the statement that the bases are full is a nonsensical one. They do not offer month on/off either. The least work/pay option is two weeks on/off.

Bases for the 787 will be PVG and SIN. The assessment is two five day sessions if you can believe it!!!!

[Dihedral1]

Masik perhaps you missed it, but emails from 3 different story Agencies, all indicate 5 Roster patterns to include month on / month off, or even 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off..:D
To Quote ads on Flight Global..

" Fly for this highly regarded Airline! this is lucrative positions for top professionals.
Fantastic new pay package and bonus. 5 different working patterns to choose from including local and 1 month on 1 month off; free international tickets and ID travel.

This contract can offers:

Generous pay and benefits package upto US$21,500 monthly earning plus overtime on top

5 different roster pattern to choose from

Generous contract renewal bonus up to $20000

Paid annual leave and sick leave

Free international tickets and ID travel

Fantastic Medical insurance， loss of license insurance and schooling allowances for two children

Commuting /residential bases include all HNA international destinations in Europe, North America, Asia and so on. "

[safelife]

Be aware that you will operate mostly domestic flights. International flights are crewed with Chinese.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Maisk...

The briefing we all received in Dubai from Longreach said Hainan was offering month on/month off rosters. The basings mentioned that were full were not all for 787s. It was for airbus and Boeing and I believe it was for CSA

Also the interviews at Hainan are no longer 5 consecutive days. They have broken them up due to most piloting rosters not allowing for more than a few days at a time.

Kap

[olster]

Yes but the first clue as to what you will be dealing with is the expectation that any pilot can spare 11 days from a roster for an interview process. Let alone the spectacular levels of Alice in Wonderland bs that you will undoubtedly encounter when you get there. Many years ago Captain Olster applied for a DEC position with a 'glamorous' Asian airline from a UK airline run by a famous 'entrepreneur'. I was sent a standby Econ ticket (gee, thanks) to not -mentioned Far Eastern destination but the problem was the return as I was due to fly the next day. After phoning and politely asking whether the return could be 'firmed up' due work commitments I was then subjected to a harangue about my lack of suitability for the position. The mild suggestion that 'going sick' for my current company to facilitate the interview was not exactly the personal qualities required did not resonate at any level. Be careful what you wish for.

Cheers.

[Maisk Rotum]

I stand corrected on the month on/off bit as it is worded as "4 & 4 Commuting" (weeks?) in my documentation.

And yes the Melbourne base is full for the CSA A330 reverse scheduling but that is not what this thread is about.

"Be aware that you will operate mostly domestic flights. International flights are crewed with Chinese"- I very much doubt it with numbers they have on order and their expansion plans internationally.

What remains to be seen is if the burden of paperwork will be less than the CSA experience.

[Dihedral1]

Agree Silberfuchs, their plans seems to suggest 787 flying will be predominantly international, wouldn't expect it to be domestic..

Hainan Airlines order for 30 787-9s underscores trans-pac growth. Partnerships will need to increase | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/hainan-airlines-order-for-30-787-9s-underscores-trans-pac-growth-partnerships-will-need-to-increase-216151)

[FLYJET123]

I worked at Hainan Airlines. The airline has many CRM issues, the local pilots do not want or like foreigners. There are literally physical fights on board multi crew flights. The Chinese have no appreciation of the term professional. Standards of safety fall short of European operations. They flaunt rules on flight deck and smoke on board. This is why they offer good salary...no one wants to work there it is hell.

[dignified]

Not to mention the luxury accommodation in China which is short of the standards of the barracks in the military, you face issues such as:

1. Staying with F/A's, and Chinese Flight Crews who are relentless smokers and boisterous, sleepless nights.

2. Rooms with precarious issues such as showers leaking, toilet flush defective, no fridge, no iron table, no breakfast or restaurants nearby, airport traffic overhead every two minutes, mattresses as hard as a rock.

3. Flying rosters that do not go beyond one week, Chinese schedulers cannot digest more than seven days, your life depends on decisions of cheap labor; they violate every days off request. You spend the month deadheading from one station to the other, to fly unexpectedly for days, weeks, months without being told you need more than a weekend set of clothes/uniforms.

No money in the world can replace your quiet and comfort wherever you are, and remember they want you to move to this dump land with family, misery galore, and your salary depends on bonuses that are subject to smooth landings, or maybe the emotional estate of the manager who decides when and what to pay of your long overdue claims, regardless of contractual agreements.

Road shows have been conducted in Europe, most recently Panama, and they continue advertising for benefits beyond salary that are not in place to-date, such as Medical Insurance, LoL insurance and schooling for your children. All a failed plan to attract more pilots, such is the same plan to offer narrow body pilots the chance for NTR on the B787, another failed project like most of HNA.


This Chinese venture is a scam, come and join the Masters of Deception, "welcome to your future", as advertised in the Hna-Overseas website.:yuk:

[gusf]

Guys, just got back from HNA assessment.
What I found out so far:

- screening = 2 phases (medical and atp test + sim assessment)
each phase last about a week. They are very SLOW on the hole process.

- there is no 2 weeks on/off period.

- 4 weeks on/off is ONLY for B777 or B787 rated (not 767 as I am)

- contracts are 100% resident (25k usd); 8 days off (23k usd)or 11 days off (21k usd).
* salary is approximate and considering ALL benefits such as housing, health insurance, etc)

- no base overseas at all. (you can commute though, but its not a base!)

- only base for the 787 is PEK so far.

- no foreigners at 787 so far! That is weird. But: there are at least 2 on ground training.

- was said by the HR lady that ground training takes about 45 days and flight training from 3 to 6 months.

- domestic flights are usually 30% but can get up to 70% on high season.

- They looked nice at the company though; warm reception.

I would like to get more information from someone that has already signed the contract or is at the ground/flight training or even better solo flying already.

Cheers.

[dimashipt]

Go back from phase 1 with vor holdings. Everything very well organized.
2 Russians B737 already flying B787. They went direct entry after 2 months training and are the first foreigners B787NTR.
It is not true only PEK base. They choose Shenzhen.

Waiting for phase 2

[looseygoosey]

I would like to get more information from someone that has already signed the contract or is at the ground/flight training or even better solo flying already.


I encourage anyone interested in flying in China, especially for Hainan group, to look here and download this 400+ page book on expat experiences in China:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/564634-working-pilot-china.html

Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)

Best of luck to all on your journey into this fascinating world of aviation.
L.G.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

I posted this on another thread but it applies equally here.

For those considering the NTR 787 program I would advise some caution. On paper it looks good but Hainan is notoriously untrustworthy. The off days offered on the commuting contract may or may not be consecutive. One contract choice is 8 days off and another is 11 days off. The recruiters and agents will tell you the Lies you want to hear but don't trust them. The Off days will most likely be non-consecutive. This will most likely be a Cruise Captain job for at least 3 years. You will be paid as a Captain but never be the PIC listed on the flight dispatch (flight assignment). This makes using this flight time almost useless for follow on jobs outside of China. Almost every job application will specifically state only list the PIC as flight time when you signed for the aircraft and were listed on the flight release as the PIC. Parc and Rishworth and Korean airlines are well aware of Chinese PIC flight times. Another issue is not being able to land the aircraft unless the PIC is an Instructor. Normally the Captain (PIC) or FO will do all the takeoffs and landings unless the PIC is an Instructor so you will have lots of Cruise captain time. Hainan is notorious for 1+ year training programs so you will only receive 70% of salary for the 1st year. When flying many of the chinese pilots smoke profusely so expect the PIC and the FO to smoke non stop while you are their crusie captain getting them coffee. Things to consider. For those wanting more info. on the Chinese atp written test there is a thread explaining it in detail with links to other information sources. It may be a bit dated but not much has changed here.

[CSAneggar]

Wyoming :ugh: why do you come on all the China threads degrading our jobs? I'm a China Southern Skipper and I can assure you I am not a cruise Captain := but you are right that on 4 crew flights I am the 2nd Captain but that will soon change. I am however PIC on domestic flights just like you are, Im sure it's the same deal at Hainan 787. Would that not be acceptable to other world airlines? So I resent you calling us cruise captains. Have you ever even done any long haul flying?

I realise you SH guys get paid more than us but I believe that is fair as you no doubt work harder.

Btw I'm quite confident I could walk in to KAL DEC on the B777 tomorrow.:ok:

[Jet Man]

Hi CSAneggar

When you refer to 2nd Captain you say but that will change - why does this change? Does the contract change or do China Southern have some period of time you must be a 2nd Captain before being the PIC?

When CSA or Hainan quote 11 days off per month is that 11 days at home and the company commute you during the other 19/20 days of work? Or will you end up having 9 days at home with one day at either end commuting to/from work?

[fatbus]

First Capt or second Capt, if the pay is the same who cares . You go to china for the money, you got the job based on your PIC time. If you have an issue with that re concider going in the first place.

[Geebz]

I don't care if the pay was $50,000 per month, no way I would ever tolerate anyone smoking around me.

You guys who put up with that crap will pay the price later in life.

[rolloutflare]

Geebz you're spot on. I attended the selection process, confirmed a few rumors and one is regarding smoking in cockpit. For that matter, the whole country. The Chinese are most ignorant in acknowledging danger of secondhand smoke. It's not uncommon to see idiotic fathers carrying their kids while puffing away.
A big no for me, but works great for those smokers who don't care (at least the nice foreign dude that I spoke to), and the air in Beijing city, food, etc, don't be too quick to assume the full pay benefits, if it lasts at all.

[Capt. Flamingo]

Did they stop hiring on the 787?

[IZAD]

CAPTAIN Flamingo, please do not remind me of someone at HNA who was formerly part of recruitment management, perhaps the only foreigner to reach that level in China; Regretfully this chap identifying himself as CAPT M@¥#A when he was simply a First Officer. Other reliable sources indicate he was never a Captain anywhere he worked as pilot prior to HNA.

Interestingly enough, the several modalities of employment at HNA at present state in their Termination Clause and I quote:

"The company or the airline can terminate this agreement if the Crew Member, during the service period:
H) is found to have misrepresented his qualifications and/or flight experience to either the Airlines or to the Comlany"

Quote unquote.

Indeed HNA stop B787 recruitment, somehow most of the B737 Captain upgrades ended serving a long term as four stripes F/O's, but they argue is better and safer that flying B737 domestic in China.

Good luck CAPT FLAMINGO, please forgive me if I am a suspect of a pilot using the acronym CAPT as his fest name.


Did they stop hiring on the 787?

[Wizofoz]

Good luck CAPT FLAMINGO, please forgive me if I am a suspect of a pilot using the acronym CAPT as his fest name.


Did someone go on an extended rant about education, because of one typo by another poster?

BTW, in (level 4) English, CAPT would be a contraction, not an acronym.....

[4runner]

I don't care if the pay was $50,000 per month, no way I would ever tolerate anyone smoking around me.

You guys who put up with that crap will pay the price later in life.

If smoke is so offensive, why consider Asia? Or for that matter, even bother to post on an Asian forum? That's like looking for work in Australia and complaining that there's too many uv rays from the sun and koala bears. I hate koala bears...

[local]

Gee, thanks for that info 4runner. I for one, was not aware uv rays also come from koala bears?.
Geebz, you've got my vote.

[fatbus]

Don't worry , I have thick skin . Auto correct is a wonderful thing.
BTV , about to leave for good with the money bucket full.

[Hootster]

Don't worry , I have thick skin . Auto correct is a wonderful thing.
BTV , about to leave for good with the money bucket full.

They certainty make it look like a great gig. Those expats probably were either forced or got a bonus for making the video. Where do I sign up, NOT!
https://youtu.be/O3uiK7I2T9M

[StinkyMonkey]

What's the latest on Hainan 787? Anyone to weigh in?

[Popgun]

They certainty make it look like a great gig. Those expats probably were either forced or got a bonus for making the video. Where do I sign up, NOT!
https://youtu.be/O3uiK7I2T9M

Haha! That propaganda video is hilarious. The Austrian kid wins the best actor Academy Award for telling the camera how 'GREAT' it all is!!!

Agreed. All those guys were either paid a very fat bonus or threatened with something less than desirable if they failed to participate with convincing and delirious euphoria!

PG

[Geebz]

If smoke is so offensive, why consider Asia? Or for that matter, even bother to post on an Asian forum? That's like looking for work in Australia and complaining that there's too many uv rays from the sun and koala bears. I hate koala bears...

Haha. Your analogy makes no sense. There are ways to protect from UV but there is no way to avoid the damages of second hand smoke in a closed environment like a cockpit.

I'm not looking for work in Asia. Been there, done that. Never say never but at this stage in life, if I ever get terminated, I think I'll spend my savings on re-educating into another line of work before I fly in Asia again, save for India. I sort of enjoyed my time there, despite the chaos of life in such a place.

I come on to prune for perspective. I am fortunate to be working for an airline with the best pay and benefits in the world at the moment. That will change, I know that. But for now it's really good (though we've been at the back of the pack before so I try not to be flippant about it). All that said, we are pilots and we complain about this or that as much as the next group of pilots does. So right about the time when my whining reaches a fevered pitch, I come here to read how other pilots are getting on. Suddenly, my gyro is reset. I have it pretty good right now and, given what you all put up with, I really shouldn't be complaining. I recently completed a contract survey that our union put out and in it they provided a 40+ page comparison with other carriers to show, overall, how much better compensated we are.

Last week I had dinner with a buddy who left ANA for an airline in his home country (in Europe). His take home pay is cut by half but his sanity is up 10x. He is happy, dare I say glowing, about where he's at in life. For him the Asian gig, and all it's games played in the name of "culture", just didn't work. It was refreshing to hear his perspective on things and how privlidged I am to be working for a carrier that, at the moment, respects aviators. It's not perfect, but it's about as close as I've seen to that word in 27 years of being a professional aviator.

Y'alls comments confirm that. I feel for you guys who are stuck in the contract pilot world grind. Hopefully one day you all will organize and vote lock step to fight for better conditions. For now, however, the unfortunate truth is you each undermine each other whether knowingly or unknowingly. The companies who hire use that fact to their advantage to continue the process of game-playing either aviator careers rather than focus of building bonds for a great future of running the business together for the collective good of all.

I wish you all the best of luck but don't be under any illusions that the contract world is the way to go. For 90% of us, it's likely better to take a career FO job at your home town or home country airline before any captain gig abroad. At least on a permanent basis that holds true. Contract gigs are for temporary jobs only.

[The Dominican]

Last week I had dinner with a buddy who left ANA for an airline in his home country (in Europe). His take home pay is cut by half but his sanity is up 10x. He is happy, dare I say glowing, about where he's at in life. For him the Asian gig, and all it's games played in the name of "culture", just didn't work.

Funny that you wrote that.... there have been more than a few pilots that left to go back to europe just to be back after a few years...., go figure!

[gtseraf]

Dom, more than a few?

In the time I've been here, I believe only 1 European has returned, a couple of Aussies. Just off the top of my head, so may have forgotten a couple.

Geebz does make some very valid points, we are our own worst enemies when pilots are quite happy to undercut others for short term gain, without taking the long term aspects into account.

[InnocentBystander]

Last week I had dinner with a buddy who left ANA for an airline in his home country (in Europe). His take home pay is cut by half but his sanity is up 10x. He is happy, dare I say glowing, about where he's at in life. For him the Asian gig, and all it's games played in the name of "culture", just didn't work.

An this relates to HNA how? You do realize that China and Japan are two different countries with totally different cultures and thus related challenges?

[InnocentBystander]

What's the latest on Hainan 787? Anyone to weigh in?

Nothing really has changed. The intake is still very slow, mostly due to CAAC red tape BS and overly strict medical standards. Mostly stuff HNA really has not much control over.

The airline itself still needs a boatload of Captains to fuel the expansion (Quite a few planned new routes had to be delayed simply because they don't have enough pilots, especially Captains on the 787) and they try to do everything in their power to speed things up.

Having said that, you are still dealing with a relatively young airline and things are quite different from what you're used to at your "perfect" previous employer. Don't try to "improve" things, you just work yourself into an early grave... Just relax, take the money and have a good time. ;)

[The Dominican]

Dom, more than a few?

In the time I've been here, I believe only 1 European has returned, a couple of Aussies. Just off the top of my head, so may have forgotten a couple.

My apologies...., I meant to jobs in Asia in general........! You hear these stories time and time again, sounds like a great idea until you face the fact that more airlines in the EU are getting worse on T&C's
and earning less than half with eroding conditions start to set in, all of a sudden you are "glowing" for very different reasons.

[Overtimer997]

Can anybody shed some light on the situation at Hainan on the 330? What is the latest on schedules, commuting, basing etc? Anything at all! All the info I can see here is very old.
Thanks in advance.

[StinkyMonkey]

Quick question for the Americans working in China:

Are the taxes paid in China sufficient to avoid paying taxes to the US?

I have previous experience in India, where "I paid" 33% tax, and that was of course high enough to not have to pay taxes in the US.

Thanks!

[safelife]

Highest tax rate is 45% in China...

[The Dominican]

Any updates?

[Savage175]

The problem you may face is that tx is only paid while you are in country. On a domestic contract no problems, but with a lot of overseas layovers you may find the tax is significantly less that 45%. Especially if you leave the country during off days. I average around 16% total tax paid due to this

[The Dominican]

Anyone flying the line on the 78 with Hainan that can share his or her experiences?

Thanks in advance.