Europe Moves ADS-B Requirements

[Dick Smith]

I note in the March 2015 issue of Aviation International News it is stated that Europe has revised the dates for retrofitting of ADS-B equipment to 2020 – to comply with that of the USA. This sounds sensible and it looks as if the industry is properly consulted in Europe.

[LeadSled]

Dick,
As I recall, the Eurocontrol mandate for ADS-B (like the US) in not nearly as extensive as the Australian requirement.
Tootle pip!!

[Jabawocky]

Probably like the USA, they have a bit more radar. :hmm: Maybe?

[LeadSled]

Jaba,
Have you actually flown in the US, and understand the system.
For GA VFR traffic, it is not dependent on radar, I never cease to be amazed at the deliberate misconceptions in Australia, most recently to justify ADS-B.
Tootle pip!!

[Hempy]

For GA VFR traffic, it is not dependent on radar, I never cease to be amazed at the deliberate misconceptions in Australia, most recently to justify ADS-B.

Do tell of these misconceptions, we are all ears.

[LeadSled]

Hempy,
I suggest you go back to some of the previous threads on ADS-B, it has all been done to death.

What experience do you have of light aircraft VFR in the US?

In general, VFR outside a towered airfield, there is no requirement to have or maintain contact with any ATC facility, by whatever name, and the airspace that requires a transponder (and in future, an ADS-B of either variety) are substantially less than Australia, remembering that, outside in/under Class B most airspace is E, except for Class C or D towers.

I also suggest that you look carefully at who FAA provides separation from whom, that may provide you with a clue as to the way they use their system.

The main Australian misconception, enthusiastically fostered by one pilot union, is that the whole FAA system is as it is because of radar coverage everywhere to the ground in the lower 48. Simply not true.

Otherwise it is all in the FAA AIM.

Tootle pip!!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Care to put in a link, or at least identify the copy of AI that you read the article, Dick

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The only thing I can find is the delay of the mandate for CPDLC.
http://http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2015-02-24/europe-postpones-controller-pilot-datalink-mandate

Nothing on ADS-B...

Noting, there wasn't a need for fitment under 12500lbs and under 250kts. Still mandate for modeS.

[Hempy]

In general, VFR outside a towered airfield, there is no requirement to have or maintain contact with any ATC facility, by whatever name, and the airspace that requires a transponder (and in future, an ADS-B of either variety) are substantially less than Australia, remembering that, outside in/under Class B most airspace is E, except for Class C or D towers.

I also suggest that you look carefully at who FAA provides separation from whom, that may provide you with a clue as to the way they use their system.

And the difference from that and Australia is what, exactly? Are you saying VFR in E in the US will not require a mode S transponder? Tell me more about how the FAA's separation/radio requirements differs to Australian separation/radio requirements in the different airspace classes.

[LeadSled]

Hempy,
I really do suggest you have a look at the FAA AIM and acquaint yourself with amongst other things, FAA transponder requirement. Don't take my word for it, get the facts direct. Or the below, if you want the legal words.

14 CFR 91.215 - ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
See also: <http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2090-114.pdf> particularly Page 8

Simplified, FAA does not provide separation between VFR/VFR or VFR/IFR in E, but may, in a capacity available basis only, provide traffic advisories.

Just go and read it up yourself, in this day and age of the internet, it is so easy.

Clue: Before "alphabet soup" airspace designations, E in US was called "VFR Exempt".

Tootle pip!!

FAA ADS-B mandate --- only aircraft that currently need Mode A/C transponders will require ADS-B by 2020.

[Hempy]

Simplified, FAA does not provide separation between VFR/VFR or VFR/IFR in E, but may, in a capacity available basis only, provide traffic advisories.

You are aware of the Australian system, aren't you? I asked you to show me how the US is DIFFERENT, not IDENTICAL :rolleyes: AIP ENR 1.4-8 in case you needed a refresher..

[swh]

I note in the March 2015 issue of Aviation International News it is stated that Europe has revised the dates for retrofitting of ADS-B equipment to 2020 – to comply with that of the USA.

That came out around August last year, the mandate was for new aircraft starting this year. IN reality most new airlines were already compliant. The retrofit was for the end of 2017 (start of 2018).

The biggest issue for airlines was meeting the Do260B requirements which means rewiring transponders.

Probably like the USA, they have a bit more radar. Maybe?

The highest utilization ADS airspace in the world I think is between USA and Europe where there is little radar coverage.

[LeadSled]

You are aware of the Australian system, aren't you?

Naaahhhh!!! What would I know about the Australian system ---- after only fifty odd years and tens of thousands of hours, flying from the damned nearest the smallest to the largest, and many hundreds of hours sitting on various consultative bodies, from prior Airspace 2000, to every iteration since.

If you can't work out the differences for yourself, I can't help you --- have a look at the references I posted, then consider what aircraft/operations the Australian mandate applies to.

The highest utilization ADS airspace in the world I think is between USA and Europe where there is little radar coverage. The North Atlantic MNPS area is one that is/will greatly benefit from ADS-B, unlike airspace with current radar coverage, where US airlines have largely been unable to find any benefits/savings that justify the capital expense. Anybody who doubts this --- Google is your friend -- there is plenty on both sides of the arguments published, start with the ATA.

Tootle pip!!