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dream747
22nd Mar 2015, 03:46
Hi guys,

In the securing aircraft section FCOM dictates that the batteries should not be turned off until the APU flap is closed. If you are on external power, is it necessary to wait for the APU flap to be closed before turning off the batteries?

Also, is APU fire extinguishing available with external power ON and batteries OFF when the APU is running?

Thanks, couldn't find any information on these or maybe I've missed it somewhere!

whitelabel
22nd Mar 2015, 04:41
As long as the dc bat bus bar is supplied then it will close and fire protection will work. See fcom electical supply.

vilas
22nd Mar 2015, 05:56
dream747
If batteries are turned off before flap is closed there will be smoke in the cabin as APU de oil sequence is interrupted. It is true even with external ON. APU does not start with batteries OFF.

fruitloop
24th Mar 2015, 01:58
Which APU ??

Fursty Ferret
25th Mar 2015, 14:50
As long as the dc bat bus bar is supplied then it will close and fire protection will work. See fcom electical supply.

So with batteries off that'll be a "no", then... ;-)

Confirmation of this on status page or by trying an APU fire test with batteries off.

Checkboard
25th Mar 2015, 16:55
In normal configuration TR1 supplies the DC BAT BUS.

i.e. the DC BAT BUS will be powered from the EXT PWR, even if the BATs are selected off.

vilas
29th Mar 2015, 16:07
I wish to correct my statement. With external power connected and batteries off APU flap will open or close but APU will not start with batteries off.

dream747
29th Mar 2015, 16:12
Thanks guys for the answers.

So it would be absolutely necessary to keep the batteries on as long as the APU is running regardless of external power status to ensure the availability of the APU fire protection.

Dream Land
29th Mar 2015, 16:47
As long as the dc bat bus bar is supplied then it will close and fire protection will work. See fcom electical supply. The answer is no, battery needed only for starting.

FlightDetent
29th Mar 2015, 21:11
http://i57.tinypic.com/icrev4.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2prfqtj.jpg
ECB = Electronic Control Box,

TURIN
30th Mar 2015, 10:51
If batteries are turned off before flap is closed there may be smoke in the cabin as APU de oil sequence is interrupted. It is true even with external ON. APU does not start with batteries OFF.

Fixed it for you. :ok:

Epsomdog
4th Apr 2015, 16:58
If you turn off the battery's the APU will shut down! Due no fire protection. I know because I've done it!

That's not reading from a book, that's experiance!

Fire protection is powered from the hot battery bus, regardless of electrical system configuration. That way you have fire protection during the start sequence on a "dead" aircraft.

Togue
4th Apr 2015, 19:09
I agree with this:

As long as the dc bat bus bar is supplied then it will close and fire protection will work. See fcom electical supply.


And


In normal configuration TR1 supplies the DC BAT BUS.

i.e. the DC BAT BUS will be powered from the EXT PWR, even if the BATs are selected off.


If the APU starter motor is connected to the DC BAT ( by External Power via AC1-TR1-DC1 ) even with the Battery PB off (DSC 24-10-30-20 P2/4 27 NOV 13) why the APU won't start?

Epsomdog
4th Apr 2015, 23:01
Touge/Whitelable/Checkboard

I think you may all be taking the FCOM diagrams too literally! They are designed to give a basic understanding of system distribution, rather than a full system logic explanation. There are in fact a lot of contractors/relays omitted, just to keep the diagrams simple.

If you attempt to start the APU with the battery's switched off but with ground power ON, the start will initiate but the ECU will sense a lack of fire protection. An AUTOSHUTDOWN will occur.

If you turn off the battery's with the APU running, ECU will sense lack of fire protection. APU will shut down.

Simple..... NO BATTERYS NO APU!

The explanation is in the AMM not the FCOM.

dream747
5th Apr 2015, 02:07
I tried it last night, turning off the batteries when the APU is running and the APU did not shut down.

FlightDetent
5th Apr 2015, 16:24
http://i62.tinypic.com/xe3mea.png

EpsomDog, in general I agree with your comments on the "simplicity" of FCOM ELEC diagrams. They are not wrong, though. Please take care with the terms used, to avoid confusion. Fire protection is powered from the hot battery bus, regardless of electrical system configuration. That way you have fire protection during the start sequence on a "dead" aircraft. On a cold aircraft the fire detection loops and bottle #2 only become available after the BAT are selected ON so power is made available to the DC BAT bus.

dream747 I only have the FCOM for guidance, if we look at PRO-NOR-SOP-26-A:

BAT 1 pb-sw and BAT 2 pb-sw ..................................................OFF
Wait until the APU flap is fully closed (about 2 min after the APU AVAIL light goes out), before switching off the batteries. Switching the batteries off before the APU flap is closed may cause smoke in the cabin during the next flight.
If the batteries are off while the APU is running, APU fire extinguishing is not available.
Further up the procedure says EXT PWR as rqrd". The text of BAT1+2 procedure should be good for both cases.

My unerstanding of the italic note:
1) APU flap > this is only important when the EXT PWR had been selected OFF. CAUTION: vilas says otherwise!
2) Fire extingusihing > puzzled here. As per FCOM diagram: if the APU was running DC BAT bus is supplied via DC 1/2 and, together with HOT BAT 2, the fire protection is available... ??

hence my Q:
(i) Is the APU fire protection avilable with batteries OFF but DC BAT bus supplied and BAT 2 normally charged? The DSC and PROC chapters of FCOM seem to contradict. If NOT is the reason electrical (beyond FCOM pilot-digestable diagrams) or logical?

Moreover I wonder to what extent are the failure cases already considered. E.g. EXT PWR trip-off during APU start and shutdown. Or ops with APU GEN u/s.

dream747
5th Apr 2015, 19:36
Even with the APU running and you turn off the batteries, on the ECAM ELEC page the DC BAT bus shows crosses. I would assume from there then the DC BAT bus is completely not powered in this case?

Or anyone has any information on the conditions when the dc tie contractors close?

Togue
5th Apr 2015, 19:51
Even with the APU running and you turn off the batteries, on the ECAM ELEC page the DC BAT bus shows crosses. I would assume from there then the DC BAT bus is completely not powered in this case?


Did you try it in the A/C or in Sim?

FlightDetent
5th Apr 2015, 20:11
Where is IGh and IFixPlanes when you need them?

On a second thought, probably doing someting reasonable for the Easter ...:uhoh:

Stone_cold
5th Apr 2015, 20:13
747 ,

Were you doing this as part of the securing the aircraft procedure ? Were the ADIRU's Off ?

dream747
6th Apr 2015, 01:57
Togue, we tried it in the aircraft. With the APU running, we turned off the batteries and had a look at the ECAM ELEC page, where it shows the DC BAT BUS in crosses. STATUS page shows APU BAT START NOT AVAIL. APU FIRE DET was not part of the inop system as I would have expected similar to the DC BAT BUS FAULT.

Stone, The ADIRS were on when we tried it out. Aircraft was in transit.

FlightDetent
6th Apr 2015, 10:47
Can you check this section of FCOM for the A/C you were sat in? What does it say about the crosses?


http://i58.tinypic.com/5nq6ub.png
because mine says nothing:


(3) DC BAT indication
It is normally in green. It becomes amber, if DC BAT voltage ≤ 25 V.

dream747
6th Apr 2015, 15:26
Mine describes it exactly the way yours do. Which is also why the indications caught us by surprise when we turned off the batteries.

Have you tried it on your aircraft?

vilas
10th Apr 2015, 14:57
I myself wrote this to earlier query on the same subject on 12/12/2014 now I remember.

Different APUs are fitted depending upon MSN of the aircraft. I am giving below from FCOM. However my experience is APU auto shuts down with batteries off,


Applicable to: MSN 0185-0249, 0264, 0384-0400, 0724
The APU may obtain power for starting from the aircraft's batteries or normal electrical system, or from ground service.

Applicable to: MSN 0138-0148, 0138-0148,0148- 0255, 0148- 0255, 0497-0557, 0932-0943
The APU may obtain power for starting from the aircraft's batteries alone or in combination with the external power, or from ground service.

Applicable to: MSN 0250, 0301-0335, 0440, 0758, 0976-1818
The APU may obtain power for starting from the aircraft's batteries or normal electrical system, or from ground service

dream747
14th Apr 2015, 17:55
Had the opportunity to secure our aircraft today and we tried once again putting the batteries off while the APU is running, and it doesn't shut down.

External power was connected and we put the batteries back on and shut down the APU, and turned off the batteries while the APU flap was still indicated open. We monitored it and it closed eventually.

MSN 5xxxx aircraft.

vilas
15th Apr 2015, 06:08
As I said on the other thread the flap is controlled by the APU master and doesn't need the battery but it is required for start.

Chu Chu
16th Apr 2015, 01:34
As an SLF I might easily be missing something, but it seems like an APU shutting down because batteries were unavailable would be an unnecessary (and presumably undesirable) decrease in redundancy.