Landing at Norwich and ATC Norwich CTR

[Lucasorg]

Please forgive my lack of knowledge here!! I am an NPPL with only limited experience of flying in controlled airspace.

I'm planning a flight from Gloucester to Norwich next week in a PA28 and know that I will have to speak with ATC before entering the Norwich CTA and CTR. I'm happy to call ahead and let Norwich Radar (119.350) know of my intentions, but...

1. What do I ask for? At Gloucester, I would simply ask to join the circuit, but I guess that most of the traffic at Norwich is commercial (could be wrong there...!) and therefore not flying circuits.
2. I'm clearly not asking for a transit, but need to request permission to enter the zone. What's the official terminology?
3. Should I expect then to be transferred to Norwich Tower (124.250) or Norwich Director (128.325)?

Thanks, and sorry if I sound rather inexperienced...I am! I just want to get it right when I get there.

Adrian

[taybird]

You will have called beforehand to book an arrival slot so they know to be expecting you around x 'o'clock.

- Norwich Radar G-LUCA inbound request basic service
(or traffic service if the vis is poor and you have a transponder)
They'll come back to you with
- G-LUCA squawk <something> pass your message

You can then say what you are, where you're from and to (inbound Norwich), where you are, conditions (VFR) and give the ATIS Letter and pressure setting that you'll already have before you called them because you listened to that first.
This will tell you the runway in use, QNH, surface wind, cloud base etc. if you aren't happy in the circuit it's perfectly fine to ask for the QFE if that helps you.

Once you're established in contact with your Basic or Traffic service, they know you're inbound so they will clear you into the zone for a VFR join to the circuit. It won't be an overhead join, it'll be a downwind join or a left or right base or even a straight in, depending on their traffic and runway in use.

Be prepared for them to ask you to hold at a VRP. Know where they are on your chart so you're not surprised by them. They may ask you to do this while they get other traffic in or out, and then ask you to come in and land.

Good luck and enjoy - it's not cheap to land there but the handling people at Saxonair are really lovely.

[Talkdownman]

See CAP413 (https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20413%20Radiotelephony%20Manual%2021_4.pdf)Chapter 6 P.35 Para 6.67

1. Simply tell Norwich that you are inbound
2. Norwich ATC knows that Norwich is in a CTR and will provide the clearance
3. Don't try to second guess anything. Simply respond as instructed.

And, yes, get the ATIS first.

Keep it simple.

Enjoy your flight.

[stopbar]

Hi Lucasorg

First off obviously ring in for PPR on the published numbers and think about handling when you arrive, normally Saxonair. If you use them no need to go through terminal security etc.

Call 119.350 at least 10 minutes from edge of zone, or get a handover from Marham when inbound. If you can check the ATIS before you call 119.350 you should get it from 30/40 miles to run it will give you RW and Met and allow you to plan. On 119.350 tell ATCO normal message who you are where you are, etc tell him you are inbound to Norwich and request a visual join. The ATCO will give you a VFR clearance. As you are inbound no need to ask for a zone clearance etc that is implicit as you are inbound to the airfield. Read it back verbatim and comply with any conditions and route as directed. Expect to join direct into the circuit (not via overhead). Most of the traffic is commercial and mainly CAT helicopters operating to/from the southern North Sea IFR and domestic fixed wing CAT. It is busiest 0700-1000 and 1600-1830. Be aware of the VRP,'s although you will not normally be routed via them unless busy.

You will be transferred to 124.250. Director is only used if a second radar console is opened when busy. Enjoy your visit ATC are both friendly and helpful any questions ask to speak to an ATCO before you set off. The CTR/CTA are no big deal.

Stopbar. :):)

[Lucasorg]

Thanks everyone - and such helpful and speedy responses. Much is as expected in terms of PPR and the usual radio calls, but there are lots of useful extras here. I know Norwich well - I was married in Norwich Cathedral! - so I know the VRPs well and have already looked at the airspace guide online.

Thanks a bunch - we will look forward to our trip now!

Adrian

[sycamore]

Adrian, first check the Notams for the route,Wx as well,decide on en-route/terminal diversions,Safety altitude(about 2500ft). If you are going via DTY,it`s about 070, then about 078 to NWI.Be aware of possible para stuff at Sibson and Chatteris.Wyton is only local club /Police/Hems,but call if nearby(you may not get an answer). Stay outside Mildenhall,as you won`t understand the `quickfire r/t` unless you drift into their airspace/emergency.You can call Marham,even if you are not passing thu` their zone, get a `handover` to Norwich as well,or call Norwich early(20 miles),(best if you`ve listened to their ATIS for R/Wy /wind ,QNH).If they are on 09, you can position for a straight-in,or if it`s 27,fly around the south of the City(VRP`s),or ask for radar vectors as you are unfamiliar with local area.There can be civil commercial traffic,and also NSea helicopter activity as well.Circuit is usually to North of airfield.
Yellow vest,licence ,passport/identification...Have a nice trip..

Beaten to it....

[Whopity]

Thanks, and sorry if I sound rather inexperienced...I am! I just want to get it right when I get there.To use the radio you need a radio licence. To get one, you are tested on all this stuff, so how can you not know the answers?

[Cusco]

Ignore the preceding comment: this is PPRuNe after all.

For GA nowadays your requirements are dealt with by Saxonair and you will taxy to the western apron (not to the passenger terminal any more).

There you will be right royally ripped off for landing fees and 'handling', but I'm told the coffee is nice.....

But it's the only way now.

Give Saxonair a ring before you go so you have some idea of how much you will be forking out.

Don't even think about any practice instrument approaches while you are there.

BTW Speak to Lakenheath Radar (128.90 ) rather than Marham before you talk to Norwich:There has been a lot of fast tin recently and four A10s visiting LKH for fun and games on the Holbeach ranges. LKH will also tell you if D208 (which is pretty close to your track) is hot.They will give you a basic service and if it's easier for your track ask for a MATZ penetration: you only have to remain clear of the ATZ.

A lot of nonsense is spoken about the Americans' R/T : it is perfectly comprehensible and anything you don't understand, they will gladly repeat if you ask them: Don't be shy: I visited Lakenheath Radar and Tower last month and they really are nice people: they can get busy about 11.30 when they are recovering up to 16 F15Es but they have extra folk on at that time and you wouldn't notice the difference.

15 miles out talk to Norwich approach (119.35 quoting ATIS letter code and QNH) with your requirements.

(freecall Norwich : you won't get a handover from Lakenheath or even from Marham for that matter), You'll get from Lakenheath : 'G-XXXX you're leaving my zone, radar service terminated, squawk 7000, frequency change approved, have a good day y'all'

Basic service from Norwich will suffice which in my experience they will convert to a radar control service once in their zone.

Circuits for the prevailing runway (27) are to the south over the city: you'll get a good view of the Cathedral and Carrow
Road!You may be asked to extend downwind for spacing: if you seem to be getting close to Gt Yarmouth, just remind them you're there.....

Enjoy your visit: the guys/gals in Norwich ATC are second to none and there's not much CAT to get in your way.

Cusco

[Heston]

Whopity makes a good point. This isn't difficult. Norwich isn't busy airspace and the controllers are very helpful - but they won't be happy if you don't know what you are doing. And rightly so.
The absolute essentials are to know what your initial call should be, and to read back the stuff you need to read back, properly. And do what they tell you to do once you are inside controlled airspace!
But I think others have covered these points pretty well, so overall I'd say just go and do it. Your experience at Gloucester won't be far off the mark.

[Lucasorg]

To use the radio you need a radio licence. To get one, you are tested on all this stuff, so how can you not know the answers?

Whopity, I'm quite used to the basic principles of the radio calls as tested, as you might hope! We have covered entering an ATZ (and used it many times) and requesting to transit controlled airspace, but I was unsure as to quite how you would make a call to enter one inside the other.

Sorry again, if I wasn't clear, but I figured it was better to be sure by asking those who know better, like everyone here!

[ShyTorque]

Lucasorg, I say well done for asking the question. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as a stupid question. Only stupid answers.

But Taybird gave some excellent advice.

As far as the answers given by some others.....obviously it's far better to take a little criticism on the ground before you fly than a lot in the air and after you've landed because you felt you couldn't ask the question.

[Lucasorg]

Thanks Heston and ShyTorque. Very much the spirit in which I had intended to ask.

I have much enjoyed learning to fly at Gloucester with the level of ATC provided there. It has given me much more confidence when talking to controllers elsewhere. My only difficult experience was whilst flying out of Inverness over the summer last year and trying to understand some of the **very** fast talk from the RAF at Lossiemouth and on the ranges. Other places have been easy to deal with.

I always like to be well prepared and to have done my homework on the ground. As you say, it's much better to ask the questions down here first, rather than to make a hash and get in the way of the "big boys"!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

My most recent landing at Norwich was a weather diversion - a line of thunderstorms materialised out of thin air and were pushing me towards the North Sea.

First of all I called up Norwich to tell them I was being pushed into their airspace by weather. They said "fine" and told me what their radar said the storms were doing. After a couple more minutes I decided I wasn't going to outrun the line of storms and told them I was landing at Norwich. "Cleared for straight in approach."

The only interesting bit was after landing: "turn right and contine with the marshaller". I'd never seen a marshaller before and although I had of course memorised all the signals in order to pass the exam that had been many years before. Fortunately I managed to guess what all the waving around of bats meant.

[Baikonour]

Just to throw you off the scent (and this is not Norwich specific) ... sometimes, after making the initial call, instead of being asked to pass my message, I have been given clearance, QNH/QFE and the lot, thereby making the fact that I had information Bravo etc. rather superfluous.

No real problem; but I guess I'm just saying that you should be prepared for deviations from the norm from ATC side as well...

:)

B.

[Whopity]

From the latest CAA IN (March 2015)Currently, the UK experiences some 700 airspace infringements per annum. On reviewing these incidents, it is evident that navigation and communication skills and operating procedures are a significant factor in both the number and the nature of airspace infringements in the UK. Which implies they are not being adequately taught or tested, hence the CAA are not appointing any new RT Examiners untill they have reviewed the sitiation. Of course the removal of any relevant questions, and the absence of a map in the CAA produced exams must surely contribute to the problem, whilst the introduction of a new licence (LAPL) with even less navigation training, is hardly likely to improve matters.

It takes 18 hours to train a candidate to the standard required for the issue of a FRTOL, most do less than 3! Therefore; it is little wonder that people have to ask basic questions. Asking is the correct thing to do, but it does highlight a fundamental deficiency in the system.

[Cusco]

Gertie Wrote\:

First of all I called up Norwich to tell them I was being pushed into their airspace by weather. They said "fine" and told me what their radar said the storms were doing. After a couple more minutes I decided I wasn't going to outrun the line of storms and told them I was landing at Norwich. "Cleared for straight in approach."


As a matter of interest, did you get a Strasser freebie?

Cusco

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As a matter of interest, did you get a Strasser freebie?

There was no landing fee on the bill, but I was charged normal handling.

[150 Driver]

Re the lakenheath comments above, I speak to them a fair bit and they are just as helpful as any other ATC unit.

Their initial response will be to give you a squawk then often wait for that to register before contacting you again

If they think you are going to impact their zone they will often give Matz penetration without asking, even if you don't need it

There have been a lot of large planes around there recently so far better to speak than not
Enjoy the flight