EMIRATES PROFIT SHARING ?

[Trafalgar]

Does anyone know the amount of profit sharing at Emirates over the past 3 years or so?

[SeldomFixit]

Not confirmed but Sheikh Wally Bin Wally, Sheikh ya Booty Bin Wally and Sheikh bin Mahmood Bin Mahmood believed to have pocketed 33.3% each. The remaining recurring decimal point will be donated to a charity presided over by Sheikh Rattle and Roll.

[Bangaluru]

Are you thinking of applying?

[Pilot_Recruit]

Last year was three weeks. The two years prior had no profit share. If it's not a big one this year it will certainly be interesting times ahead.

[ron burgandy]

9 weeks this year
So just a little for than ours.

[Long Dong Silver]

Do they get 13th month?

[Frogman1484]

I guess you can make money wi pith they A380...a lot more than Cathay can without them!

[boxjockey]

I guess you can make money wi pith they A380...a lot more than Cathay can without them!

You can't be serious, can you?

box

[Trafalgar]

Amen brother (sorry, couldn't resist!!). Seriously, can everyone please just proof read their comments before hitting 'send'...??? :ugh: (and it's a miracle, I completely agree with CR for the first time!). :p

[cxorcist]

Froggy et al,

Sorry, I cannot resist.

Let's say CX operated 3 x A380 + 1 744F to LHR per day instead of 5 x 777-300ER. That is approximately an equal amount of lift. Right? 1500 seats and 100T cargo.

Would CX make more revenue? I don't know, but they would certainly spend more in fuel getting it from A to B. I think that might just have an impact on profit, but I have been away from my economics classes for some time now. This to write nothing of lost flexibility to the airline in the event of a downturn. On the plus side, the A380 would certainly help solve the current crewing problems. Yes, the same crewing problems the Company says do not exist.

[swh]

How many CX 777-300ER are operated to LHR with 300 seats ?

Why no cargo on the A380 ? On a 12 hr trip the 777-300ER will take more cargo, beyond that the A380 carries more cargo. It is not zero cargo however.

There are more popular and less popular slot times, CX it turning away revenue at the more popular slot times.

EK seems to be making money hand over fist still where they have replaced 777-300ER with A380s on routes across their network. EK say the cost per seat on the A380s is around 15-20% less than the 777-300ER, depending on how the A380 and 777-300ER is configured. That is why they have been asking for an updated engine package for the A380 to beat the 777X on a cost per seat basis by a similar margin.

9 weeks profit share to employees, plus 750 million dividend payment to shareholders. A bit different to the CX half day profit share and 170 million dividend payment.

[Trafalgar]

...not to mention a proper housing package, no tax, cheap transportation, much quicker time to command and hosties you can actually speak to and have some fun with. Yup, I can see why everyone would rather have a frustrating and unfulfilling career with CX. :ugh:

[cxorcist]

Swh,

No argument on the profit share. CX is a joke. I hear EK had to have a big payout to retain pilots. Wish that were true in HKG. Housing is the last handcuff, and it is gradually going away.

My sources at LH say 747-8I is within 2-3% of A380 on seat costs, which is more than made up for with extra cargo volume. I know the 77W is very close to the Intercontinental on seat costs. So I think that 15-20% seat advantage is quite inflated.

Wrt CX 77W seats, I'm not sure. I believe it has lost numbers to PEY seating. That's up to the airlines. I know AC operates 77W in high density configuration over 450 seats. Not the point. My point is 5 77W is about the same floorspace and cargo capacity as 3 A380 and a -400F, although the former gives more frequency options and flexibility in downturns.

You can't argue the trends. Nobody outside the ME3 is ordering more A380s. Maybe Turkish buys some, maybe not. Non-ME3 orders on the books are tentative at best. Meanwhile, big twins (777, A350, 787) are being ordered by the hundreds. The verdict is in, and it's not a good one for VLAs. Engine improvements might keep the A380 on life support for a while longer, but it won't change the industry trend over the long haul.

[swh]

cxorist,

Your sources have always been a joke.

You don't know that Cathay has 275 seats on the 4 class 777-300ER, and sprout numbers about other airlines you don't work for like fact.

There is a 186 seat difference between the Lufthansa 526 seat A380 and their 340 seat 747-8i. On average their 747-8i have 363 seats, and their A380s 508 seats. An average difference of a 145 seats, more than what they carry in a 737 or A319.

Emirates on average have 357 seats on their long haul 777-300ERs (those with first class), and 503 seats on their A380s.

Lufthansa has 5 more seats on their A380s than Emirates has on theirs, and Lufthansa has on average 6 more seats on their 747-8is than Emirates has on their 777-300ERs. How many more tonnes per hours for 6 seats ? You claim the 747-8i is on par with the 777-300ER.

No way in the world is there a 2-3% seat delta at Lufthansa, their 747-8is would probably have a 5-10% higher cost per seat than Emirates has on their 777-300ERs.

Remember how you were saying an A380 did not have the range for North America, Emirates on a daily basis fly routes with the A380 longer than HKG-JFK, or needed massive fuel buildups to fly Hong Kong to Europe as there were no alternates ? Yet how many airlines have operated from Asia to a Europe ?

[cxorcist]

Swh,

Scoreboard.

[Frogman1484]

Ok let's put it this way...EK has an order of 150 A380 because they want to waste money and make a loss!

They have a profit margin of 5.1%, twice what CX is achieving only because they have 777's.::yuk:

Obviously the leadership at EK are clueless!:ugh:

They have been outperforming CX constantly over the last few years both in profit and in product.

Sorry Boeing fanatics...the 747-8 passenger version is dead in the water...I'm sure you have figured it out by now! :ok:

[Captain Dart]

CX's problem is not that of A380/747-8 vs 777, or lack of runways at CLK. It is HKG's airspace; difficult on the best of days, and in the event of widespread convective disturbances, a shambles. Over the next few Asian summers, HKG may soon become untenable as a viable hub.

There is no point ordering A380s or building more runways until the airspace is sorted out. And I am not optimistic of that happening over the remainder of my airline flying career.

[Trafalgar]

The truth of the matter is that CX is beginning a slow and inexorable decline. They have never really been 'well' managed. They have succeeded only because of their privileged position in HK, basically a monopoly, that is now being unwound by the government and the pressure of competitors like Emirates. Instead of focusing on growth and product, they are institutionally blinded by a need to 'manage', and spend all their effort and energy on waging war on the very employees that have basically allowed the airline to function as well as it has over the past decades. Now, the dysfunction at the top has caused those same employees to actively work against the airlines long term interests, resulting in the airline stagnating at just the point in history where it most needs all areas of the operation to be functioning as an efficient and productive machine. On top of that, the always present fallacy of building an airport at CLK is becoming apparent, as it can never provide the operational flexibility needed. Even a third runway is pointless, as it too will be at capacity the day it opens. Meanwhile, Emirates and all the other Gulf carriers will be operating from ever expanding modern airports, with better aircraft and a much better product (who really believes our 'first' class is anything compared to Emirates first class product on the 380?). Our management should be focusing on making sure we are expanding to all the markets that we can make money in, and not worrying about the incremental cost of employing competent and experienced aircrew. Soon, many of us are going to wake up to the fact that the only viable career (one where you can afford to be married, have children and put money away for retirement) will be with the dominant Gulf carriers. That is probably the story for the next 20-30 years, until the next sea-change of revolution takes place in the industry. CX had it's time from the 80's through to the 2010's. They probably can't survive with the myopic and incestuous Swire mindset still fighting their 18th century 'mill owner' battles against their employees instead of realising that their real danger is growing at twice their rate, with better hubs, better aircraft, better regulators and better management. Nine weeks profit share....sounds like they at least want to find a way to show their employees that they have a reason to work there. Who at CX is deluded enough to believe they have a career here anymore?

[Frogman1484]

Trafalgar...100% correct...spot on!:ok:

[asianeagle]

The truth of the matter is that CX is beginning a slow and inexorable decline. They have never really been 'well' managed. They have succeeded only because of their privileged position in HK, basically a monopoly, that is now being unwound by the government and the pressure of competitors like Emirates. Instead of focusing on growth and product, they are institutionally blinded by a need to 'manage', and spend all their effort and energy on waging war on the very employees that have basically allowed the airline to function as well as it has over the past decades. Now, the dysfunction at the top has caused those same employees to actively work against the airlines long term interests, resulting in the airline stagnating at just the point in history where it most needs all areas of the operation to be functioning as an efficient and productive machine. On top of that, the always present fallacy of building an airport at CLK is becoming apparent, as it can never provide the operational flexibility needed. Even a third runway is pointless, as it too will be at capacity the day it opens. Meanwhile, Emirates and all the other Gulf carriers will be operating from ever expanding modern airports, with better aircraft and a much better product (who really believes our 'first' class is anything compared to Emirates first class product on the 380?). Our management should be focusing on making sure we are expanding to all the markets that we can make money in, and not worrying about the incremental cost of employing competent and experienced aircrew. Soon, many of us are going to wake up to the fact that the only viable career (one where you can afford to be married, have children and put money away for retirement) will be with the dominant Gulf carriers. That is probably the story for the next 20-30 years, until the next sea-change of revolution takes place in the industry. CX had it's time from the 80's through to the 2010's. They probably can't survive with the myopic and incestuous Swire mindset still fighting their 18th century 'mill owner' battles against their employees instead of realising that their real danger is growing at twice their rate, with better hubs, better aircraft, better regulators and better management. Nine weeks profit share....sounds like they at least want to find a way to show their employees that they have a reason to work there. Who at CX is deluded enough to believe they have a career here anymore?

on the button Mr T!
:D:D:ok::ok:

[Lowkoon]

Trafalgar, an on the money rant, I wouldn't have said CX deal was good up until 2010, i would have said their "golden Era" was 70's to 93, when the race to the bottom began.

On the HKIA front, interesting to see KA guys rate HK as the worst managed airspace that they fly into now, and they fly to the worlds "least enjoyed ports" shall we say. At least the delays there are 99.9% on the ground burning APU fuel, not in some contrived holding pattern under 'radar vectors' burning bucket loads more. Third runway is just a band aid solution to be seen to be doing something... I can already see the high powered meetings to find out why none of promised improvements materialised after spending billions of dollars. I guess the logic is, it will be on someone else's watch.

[Steve the Pirate]

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/560278-ek-financial-results-announcement-11.html

Some interesting reading here from folks who actually know what it's like working for EK. But we probably shouldn't take any notice because we don't want to shatter the illusion that working in the ME, particularly at EK, is so much better than CX. :E

Trafalgar said:

Nine weeks profit share....sounds like they at least want to find a way to show their employees that they have a reason to work there.

I have to respectfully disagree. It probably has less to do with EK management showing their employees that they have a reason to work there but more with the forecast crew shortfall which will hamper aggressive expansion plans - the same was true here in the early 90's. I would venture to suggest that EK management do not care any more or less for their pilot workforce than does any other airline management (there might be the odd exception out there that I'm not aware of).

STP

[Threethirty]

Steve are you saying we don't have a crew shortage now?!

[Steve the Pirate]

Steve are you saying we don't have a crew shortage now?!

I didn't say that. In fact, nothing in my post had anything to do with current CX manning levels so, frankly, your apparent conclusion is a non sequitur. What I actually said was that with EK's aggressive expansion plans they see a forecast crew shortage, just like it was for CX in the late 80's and early 90's when we were going through our aggressive expansion.

STP

[Trafalgar]

...which emphasis's my point: EK probably settled on a significant profit share payout because they are desperate to 'encourage' their crew to stay, and attract new pilots with hopes of a viable career. The exact opposite of the message that the actions of our management are guilty of. The evidence that there is in fact NO actual profit sharing scheme in this company is just another piece of the puzzle who's solution is probably establishing a career with a Gulf airline, even in spite of the known negatives there. Most of the Gulf carriers are rapidly improving the career package for their aircrew, and our company is, again, heading in exactly the opposite direction. This airline will be a shell of itself within a decade or so....and anyone trapped here will bitterly wish they had jumped ship to a command, tax free salary, housing and a chance of retirement long before. It's always tough making the decision to make such a major change of direction in life, but if the Titanic is heading for the ice berg at full steam, the sooner you abandon ship the better. Anyone early 40's of under who isn't making that move will probably find their career hollowed out, and their bank accounts empty if they stay in HK. Even a mainland Chinese airline contract is better than what's on offer here now. Go to the Gulf and find yourself a 380 Captain in 6 years. There is really nothing left here for anyone anymore...

[Steve the Pirate]

EK probably settled on a significant profit share payout because they are desperate to 'encourage' their crew to stay, and attract new pilots with hopes of a viable career.

That is exactly what happened here in the early 90's. Profit share was introduced in lieu of a pay rise and, well, we all know what's happened since. I can almost guarantee that EK management is distributing profit share only because they need to: we should be under no illusion that altruism is involved. Perhaps the converse is true here in CX, particularly with respect to the pilot workforce. Pilots are still joining, few are leaving and so it could be argued that there is no problem. I don't necessarily subscribe to that point of view but it's hard to argue otherwise given the facts.

To those young enough and unencumbered by familial ties, be they inherent or acquired, then leaving is an option. However, should EK be the airline of choice, or any ME airline for that matter, you should thoroughly research the pros and cons before heading off. To those who do choose to leave, I hope it's for the right reasons and I wish you well.

STP

[RHEINHARD]

Le pirate has it exactly right. Have a look at the ME Forums. You'll be astounded to hear, no doubt , that the standard of whining, bitching and moaning is exactly the same as on here, with very similar gripes throughout. BTW, ask some of your ME mates how contract compliance would work there whilst you're at it.
At least we are afforded that luxury.

[Trafalgar]

A simple equation, which everyone should work out in their own time:

compare $ earned/saved between CX and EK (or any other Gulf carrier) based on the following factors:

1) monthly salary
2) tax (oh, there isn't any in EK)
3) housing cost (oh, there isn't any in EK)
4) cost of transportation
5) cost of schooling
6) time to Command (reference monthly salary)
7) ability to save
8) remuneration trends in each airline

Factor all those and then compare the $ amount in your piggy bank after a 20-30 year career. I think the numbers will shock you. After doing the math, take a long hard look at yourself and where you want to be in 20 years time. Make a decision accordingly.

[cpdude]

Unfortunately for the younger employees, CX is dead in the water. Too many years of cuts and bad relations with it's employees results in a work force which will kill the airline. It's happened many times in the USA and it's slowly happening here too unless the new DFO can make some major changes fast. I predict in 5 short years the airline will have a major contraction as moves to other airlines and early retirements take effect on an airline that can only say "cannot" to it's employees.:(

[sorvad]

Trafalgar, Im normally with you but whats happened?….it seems you and Curtain Rod have a lot more in common than you thought….that money is all consuming and the notion of home, lifestyle and belonging are completely irrelevant

[Bindair Dundat]

….the only reason EK got a whopping (cough, cough) 9 week profit share is due to plunging fuel costs. Had that goal post not moved significantly, it would have been tiny or non-non-existant AGAIN. At this stage, though, the profit share is really a moot point. Lifestyle and T&C's have degraded to such a point that even 9 weeks does nothing to alter the mood on the ground. Basically it should cover your extra outlay for your kid's private school top up and your eventual move to Meydan.

Basically it sucks everywhere….but don't think that EK management is at all enlightened in terms of trying to keep their pilots happy. It is a toxic gong show there now. Anyone considering the Pit needs their head examined.

[SOPS]

Toxic...that's the perfect word.

[Frogman1484]

Bindair as they say the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
At this stage unfortunately for the boys at CX the grass looks greener in the ME.

Let's face is every airline has its problems with moral and working conditions. You will work hard at both and you will do your fair share of night duties at both.

The big difference is in the $$$. At CX the money for a new joiner without housing is not enough! So when you look at both airlines. They both have low moral, they both have tough rosters. EK has housing CX does not.

So I'm afraid to say but the Middle East airlines still look better than CX.

Ask your self this question. Would you join an airline in the Middle East if they did not offer housing, or how many pilots would be working in the UAE if you had to pay for your own accomodation?

[Bindair Dundat]

It's a good point Frogman but, no, I would not join EK in particular knowing the standard of housing that they are now providing. Meydan is a glorified labour camp in the middle of the desert….it's just so sad that it has now come to this at all these airlines. No housing, **** housing….crap rosters, bad pay….it goes on and on :ugh:

[ACMS]

So you're saying it's like DB passing the hat around? ;)

[Frogman1484]

Bindair. You correct in saying, it is a race to the bottom. I'm wondering what changes the USA complaint is going to bring to the ME.

You might find that your current Flight time limitations get improved because of this.

[CCA]

I've written this on another forum, this is all due to pilots being hamstrung by a seniority system that was designed for times when pilots were a valued part of the airline, now they are simply a cost that needs to be reduced and seniority means the airlines can basically reduce pay and conditions to rock bottom as pilots are forced to remain, leaving the airline means you will be competing against possibly P2F.

5, 10, thousands hrs means nothing when crew sacrifice everything to get on a seniority list.

A free market where crew could chase lifestyle, cash or shiny jets as they saw fit over a 40yr career would cost the airlines a fortune and they would pay to stabilise it.

Being a pilot would be completely different to how it is now, and I'm afraid PPrune may not even exist as we'd probably be a happier bunch of individuals that, as I said above moved as required to remain happy or simply remained put as the airline knew they had to offer rewarding pay and lifestyle for retention!

Flame away....

[cxhk]

The truth of the matter is that CX is beginning a slow and inexorable decline. They have never really been 'well' managed. They have succeeded only because of their privileged position in HK, basically a monopoly, that is now being unwound by the government and the pressure of competitors like Emirates. Instead of focusing on growth and product, they are institutionally blinded by a need to 'manage', and spend all their effort and energy on waging war on the very employees that have basically allowed the airline to function as well as it has over the past decades. Now, the dysfunction at the top has caused those same employees to actively work against the airlines long term interests, resulting in the airline stagnating at just the point in history where it most needs all areas of the operation to be functioning as an efficient and productive machine. On top of that, the always present fallacy of building an airport at CLK is becoming apparent, as it can never provide the operational flexibility needed. Even a third runway is pointless, as it too will be at capacity the day it opens. Meanwhile, Emirates and all the other Gulf carriers will be operating from ever expanding modern airports, with better aircraft and a much better product (who really believes our 'first' class is anything compared to Emirates first class product on the 380?). Our management should be focusing on making sure we are expanding to all the markets that we can make money in, and not worrying about the incremental cost of employing competent and experienced aircrew. Soon, many of us are going to wake up to the fact that the only viable career (one where you can afford to be married, have children and put money away for retirement) will be with the dominant Gulf carriers. That is probably the story for the next 20-30 years, until the next sea-change of revolution takes place in the industry. CX had it's time from the 80's through to the 2010's. They probably can't survive with the myopic and incestuous Swire mindset still fighting their 18th century 'mill owner' battles against their employees instead of realising that their real danger is growing at twice their rate, with better hubs, better aircraft, better regulators and better management. Nine weeks profit share....sounds like they at least want to find a way to show their employees that they have a reason to work there. Who at CX is deluded enough to believe they have a career here anymore?

Even though I do agree with you regarding CX, it's poor management, and its employees relations.

I will have to respectfully disagree with you regarding CX strategy vs EK. CX strategy is doing just fine really, our hard product (and yes that include first class), are consistently rated highly. Most travel blogger (ie: One Mile At A Time Blog, Boarding Gate, etc) consistently rate CX First ahead of EK First. EK first class might look nice in pictures but the seat is claustrophobic at best, and the soft product and their crew are no where as good as CX. EK Economy Class on the 777 are rated so poorly due to their 10 across seating that many travel website refuses to give them a 5 star rating (ask SkyTrax), most traveller complains about their lack of space on EK 777 fleet. The only redeeming point for EK is their A380, and even with the A380, EK is now evaluating 11 seat across for Economy Class in the lower deck. The whole business model of EK is build on flying to as many places as possible and jam as many passenger as possible on their planes so that they have a pricing advantage against their competitor. EK is know to have poor timing for all the connections in Dubai with most connecting pax having to wait 3 or more hours to connect, this is because they often only one frequency to most of the places they fly to. This is completely opposite to CX strategy of offering our passenger amazing connections. Most of CX Aus / NZ to Europe, or China / India / South East Asia to North American connections require only one hour in HK for transit. This is why CX can get better yield and thus allow CX to have a relatively low passenger number for their 777.

On top of all that, there is now a collective push against the ME3. In the next 10 years, I can assure you that the ME3 won't be expanding as fast as they have been. Also they are running into their own employee problem as well but they are lucky they their labour laws is even worse then those in Hong Kong, which helps Ek significantly.

[Bindair Dundat]

EK is really a low cost airline that gives the appearance (but only appearance) of a legacy or first rate Asian carrier. Don't get me wrong T&C's are declining everywhere but service on EK is so hit and miss now because they can't retain cabin crew for more than a couple of years. Twenty somethings come to DXB to party for a couple of years and then eff off because they hate it so much and are worked like dogs. With hundreds of different nationallities working together, there is such a hodge podgy in service standards - especially compared to Cathay, Singapore, Korean etc. There is no comparison in the cabin environment.
As for flight deck crew that used to be primarily from UK, OZ, CDN, USA - watch as this shifts to mostly pilots from the subcontinent, south america, south africa and other areas that may consider the package worthy of a decade or more in the sandpit being some Arab's slave. Whilst evicting senior captains from their family homes to live in a glorified labour camp in the desert, no pay raises, insane rostering and working hours, dubious leave options…who wants to go there anymore. It's low cost….and will continue down that path even more as they try to dominate the world.

[asianeagle]

watch as this shifts to mostly pilots from the subcontinent, south america, south africa and other areas

oi!!!
:=:=:=

watch it.... those Saffers are the biz!:D

[Kapitanleutnant]

Green Dragon....

Do you know what you're getting into with the EK 777? It's taken over from what the 330 used to do. Complete Sh*te. I left but once in a while have colleagues sending me rosters. One was 115 hours in one month!

Think really hard about this....

Good luck whatever you decide.

Kap