Plymouth city airport again

[oldpax]

From todays local newspaper A report issued today claims Plymouth City Airport could reopen.
The National Connectivity Task Force has released a report saying that, if slots into a London airport could be secured, the airport could reopen as a viable transport link to the capital.
The airport was closed in 2011 when leaseholders Sutton Harbour Holdings activated an 'Armageddon clause', convincing the council it was no longer commercially viable.
The council has said it will support reopening if a viable business plan is produced.
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The report released today reads: "If slots into the UK's international hub could be found for Plymouth the mothballing of the airport could be re-considered.
"Plymouth's large cluster of maritime businesses, the university and the Tamar Science Park all have ambitions that would benefit from easier international access."
It added that improved London hub links could be "particularly significant" to the far south west "because of the absence of any realistic prospects of high-speed rail connections into the area".
The National Connectivity Task Force was established to develop proposals for how regional air links to London and the major airports serving London and the South East Region can be improved.




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Read more: Plymouth City Airport could reopen, says report | Plymouth Herald (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Plymouth-City-Airport-reopen-says-report/story-26179971-detail/story.html?ito=email_newsletter_plymouthherald#ixzz3UY5HjhcE )
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in Plymouth.

[ABBOT]

So, the founders of Brymon and Charles Stewart were spot on. Plymouth airports viability was dependant primarily on the Plymouth, St Mawgan to Heatrow twice a day service and Secondarily on the Plymouth, Exeter to Gatwick twice a day service. It has slipped my mind, who was it who gave up the LHR and Gatwick slots?

[yeo valley]

it was sutton harbour holdings that ran the services through their airline air southwest.
out of intereast has anything been done with the airport since it shut.as i understand it was closed to all traffic, so has anybody been looking after it or has it just been left till such time its not viable to get it back into use.
in the report it states it could be mothballed. so it seems like nothing has been done.

[Skipness One Echo]

It has slipped my mind, who was it who gave up the LHR and Gatwick slots?
It was British Airways who as a commercial enterprise were utterly astonished to discover that using LHR slots to pootle DHC7/8s to the West Country was not extracting a good value from a slot pair.

[ABBOT]

The Mayor of Plymouth was very pro Airport. Is his voice still being heard in support of the campaign?

[crackling jet]

Yes, bring back the PLY/BRS/MAN and any PLY/BRS/Anywhere route, surely the Brs stop; would add pax on the PLY route with the BRS stop adding pax and justifying the route.

[GROUNDHOG]

Dan Air are basing an HS748 there so I am told......:rolleyes:

[LNIDA]

These small airports should be excluded from APD, I would add Teesside, Humberside, Carlisle,Doncaster & Exeter, they serve sizeable local communities and would reduce road traffic and improve business links, CWL & PIK are a matter for their respective devolved assembly's although the business case for PIK is IMHO with GLA up the road flawed to say the least.

Although Exeter & Plymouth are close-ish the problem is with Exeter being on the East side of Exeter and road down to Plymouth is a bit of a night mare in Summer with traffic and although the road is mostly dual carriage it doesn't feel safe especially at night

[SWBKCB]

wouldn't that be unfair competition for those airports up the road and on the next rung in terms of pax numbers e.g. NCL, LBA, EMA, EXT, NQY?

[oldpax]

The problem is that Plymouth is equidistant from Exeter and Newquay which means a journey of about 44 miles to either of the other airports .I used Plymouth from 76 until about 2005 and never saw an empty seat!!Always wondered who owned Air South West and that explains a lot.So Sutton harbour shareholders stand to make a lot from developers and Plymouth would lose a beneficial amenity.

[Skipness One Echo]

There's no point in looking to what worked in the 1970s to plan for 21st century airport accessibility. The only way this would work would be like this :
Viking Sells Series 400 Twin Otters to Scotland | Viking Air (http://www.vikingair.com/news/viking-sells-series-400-twin-otters-scotland)

A taxpayer funded and PSO operated and subsidised operator to fly from regional airports into an expanded LHR to make sure the wealth and opportunity are a little more spread around. There is no way in Hell that it's a commercial proposition, but there's a good argument for trying it as a PSO, assuming LHR gets a third runway.

[Heathrow Harry]

this the Thrid Runawy at LHR that Fair Deal Frank says will not have ring-fenced slots for UK regional flights as that will be a "commercial decision way in the future"???


The "National Connectivity Task Force" was set up by LHR, they also selected the Chairman so it's another PR exercise from the M4 boys

[Fairdealfrank]

this the Thrid Runawy at LHR that Fair Deal Frank says will not have ring-fenced slots for UK regional flights as that will be a "commercial decision way in the future"???
Wrong again, Heathrow Harry, have never said that.

In fact the opposite is the case. It is only WITH a third rwy that the issue even arises, and it's the same for PSOs.

With another rwy, loads of free slots become available to existing carriers as well as new operators.


FYI, wrote the following replying to Cornish Simon about PSOs on the Newquay thread:

"Yes, NQY is on Heathrow Ltd.'s list of potential extra domestic links along with CWL, EXT, HUY, INV, JER and LPL (page 14, "Taking Britain Further), but surprisingly, not IOM.

It’s been raised in Parliament several times and is a sensible idea. Suspect such provisions would be there, and need to be there, as a condition for LHR expansion."

and....

Wrote the following replying to Heathrow Harry’s question about cast-iron guarantees on the Newquay thread:


"Hopefully not like Call-Me-Dave's "cast-iron" guarantee on a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.

As for more JFK, it's unlikely, there’s already hourly flights at the times they’re needed, and in any event extra longhaul flights still need feeders.

What you forget is that with LHR expansion, there will be loads of new free slots available, enough for small operators to/from smaller airports like NQY and for new longhaul to the emerging fast-growing economies in S. America, Asia, Africa, etc.. Many haven’t yet realised that a third rwy is a whole new ball-game.

In the long term road and rail will become even more congested, overcrowded and expensive, and this will give a boost to domestic air services to/from airports like NQY and others. The ability to also feed longhaul will make an expanded LHR the London airport of choice for these."

As you can see, Heathrow Harry, the cast-iron guarantee should not be like Dave's on the Lisbon Treaty, because it was worthless: we never did vote on it.

That is very different from "will not have ring-fenced slots for UK regional flights as that will be a "commercial decision way in the future"???" as you suggest.

Suspect that some slots will be ring fenced for domestic links as a condition in the unlikely event of permission being granted. Some of these will also be on a PSO arrangement.

Pure speculation of course, based on balance of probabilities. Truth is, no one knows.

Hope this helps.

PS if ringfenced slots on a third rwy and/or a PSO gets PLH opened up again, bring it on. But don't hold your breath.

[trafficnotsighted]

Getting back on topic guys. Plymouth airport atc equipment and nav aids were just shut down on the closure. It is my understanding that the tower equipment has been vandalised. As the largest city in the uk without its own airport you would think the City council would jump at the chance to reopen it or at leasrt encourage private investors to do so. No the reverse they are one of the loudest voices saying it should not reopen.
oh well Plymouth city
council keep feeling sorry for yourselves and complaining that all large business investment keeps going to exeter. Invest in plymouth as it has good rail links , oh no it gets washed away. You reap what sew.

[WOWBOY]

With the new study. I have faith that the airport will reopen, righting the wrongs of the past. It's very much an important asset for thr future.

[SWBKCB]

By the new study, do you mean that from the National Connectivity Task Force?

If so, good luck...

[WOWBOY]

No the government study annouced in the budget.

[Fairdealfrank]

As the largest city in the uk without its own airport


.....don't forget Hull and Stoke, both are a similar size to Plymouth.


Getting back on topic guys.


It is on topic. PLH gets a mention in the National Connectivity Task Force report as a potential airport to have links to/from LHR if a third rwy is built. Had it not done so, it is unlikely that this thread would have been started.

The topics of ring-fencing slots for this purpose, PSOs, etc., are raised in it.

Heathrow Harry's misquoting of me also has a bearing on this.

[Martin the Martian]

So, are we pinning our hopes for Plymouth to re-open on when Heathrow's third runway opens? If so, the infrastructure at Plymouth will have crumbled into dust by the time that finally happens.

[01475]

What is this National Connectivity Task Force? Is it a Heathrow Airport think tank? Apparently Heathrow is DTVs potential saviour too. I'm just waiting for the Sheffield City thread to pop up again too...

Edit... just read that it is. Definitely expecting to see the Sheffield thread pop up again.

[cornishsimon]

Funny isn't it
LHR and NQY were both mentioned today
NEW HEATHROW COMMITMENTS WILL HELP CONNECT CORNWALL TO GLOBAL GROWTH | Newquay Cornwall Airport (http://www.newquaycornwallairport.com/about/media-center/news/new-heathrow-commitments-will-help-connect-cornwall-global-growth)


cs

[xtypeman]

Just a thought....... I believe that the airfield licence is no longer. Now I am not an airfield licensing expert but. Would the CAA issue a licence for scheduled operations? I would expect that they would look at any application as a new licence and not a resurrection of the previous one. Therefore what are the requirements for scheduled service use. Would this need a renewed and extended runway with the latest ICAO RESAs etc. Over too the airfield guys for the answer.

[Capot]

C'mon, people, get real. Even the Connectivity Task Force understood the big problem;

If slots into the UK's international hub could be found for Plymouth the mothballing of the airport could be re-considered.

The word is "If".

There has been no Government policy whatsoever on increasing runway capacity at London hub airports, particularly Heathrow, and/or on building an alternative in the Thames estuary, since 2000, and there wasn't one before then either.

The 2003 study cost £100m and provided a way forward of sorts; the problem is that the conclusion of the study could have been written on a fag packet before the consultants got involved, although I'm personally very grateful to the tax-payers for the generous income that study provided for 4 years.

But the report was shelved by the Labour Government the day after it was published, for all practical purposes.

Successive announcements have been made about studies into the problem, as though the 003 study did not exist. I think there's one being planned even now, although I don't bother to keep up.

The 3rd short runway at LHR was a good solution when Charles Stuart launched it in the mid '80s; I was proud to have helped him with it. But it got nowhere in the face of stupidity, commercial and operational incompetence and competing vested interests.

That lethal combination means that no real addition to London airports' runway capacity is actually going to happen.

And that, in turn means that any hope of slots being allocated at a viable cost to routes from Plymouth to London is a pipe-dream.

If anyone is interested, the solution to the problem proposed in 2003, and shot down by BAA and NATS working together, was the 2000m parallel (to LGW) runway at Redhill, dedicated to regional services, with an 8-minute overland monorail transfer to Gatwick and a dedicated rail spur to central London from the terminal. When you see Gatwick promoting its own parallel runway, remember that in order to kill off Redhill as a competitor, BAA/NATs declared that a parallel runway could not operate safely without severe movement limitations. It was a lie, of course, but the DfT believed it.

[NewquayJacob]

To meet the RESA requirements the runway thresholds would have to be displaced to 1,167m (code 2) to provide the 90m areas that were not present before? I also think that moving the car park was mentioned to meet the necessary safety distance from the terminal building.

I don't see how a 19 seat aircraft to STN/MAN would work (VIABLE's plan), aircraft would be limited due to the runway length anyway - so not many contenders if the airport did reopen (D328, ATR42, J41)? Viable even list the Twin Otter as a potential aircraft!

Another major income for the airport was the Royal Navy and FOST which apparently generates £600,000 per year.

The report also mentions over £9 million to reopen the airport up to standards.

[cornishsimon]

Haven't fost relocated to NQY ?


cs

[oldpax]

So Plymouth could have an airport if it had somewhere near London for them to land?Also if the aircraft used were big enough to make a profit? I guess Newquay were lucky having that big runway!
There was an article(Plymouth Herald) last week where the A38 Plym to Exeter was going to be transformed into a mini motorway,that should do it then!!

[tibbs87]

They may as well just open it up as a GA airfield, at least get some profits going, cheap landing fees & parking, I'm sure some of these business types would afford a small turboprop taxi service to operate if they were really that desperate. They don't need to have all the fancy equipment for a GA facility (It helps), but if they want to keep aviation going at Plymouth, logically they need to take baby steps and build on it - will take years, but they need to get profits going first :)

[speedbird_481_papa]

so not all the airfield then has succumbed to the bulldozer yet? Is runway 13/31 still relatively intact then?

[robin]

There was an article(Plymouth Herald) last week where the A38 Plym to Exeter was going to be transformed into a mini motorway,that should do it then!!

Already done

Don't you remember the glorious day when they unveiled a road sign on Haldon Hill calling the A38 the 'Devon Expressway'

A cheaper alternative to doing any actual work

[NewquayJacob]

I think Runway 13/31 is relatively intact, the other runway isn't useable as some of the end was sold so now it is not long enough now.

The Viable plan does mention opening the aerodrome just for GA with basic fire cover - surely the costs of doing this would be quite low (compared with re opening properly).

[GROUNDHOG]

In the words of Martin Luther King......:rolleyes:

[Fairdealfrank]

The word is "If".

There has been no Government policy whatsoever on increasing runway capacity at London hub airports, particularly Heathrow, and/or on building an alternative in the Thames estuary, since 2000, and there wasn't one before then either.

The 2003 study cost £100m and provided a way forward of sorts; the problem is that the conclusion of the study could have been written on a fag packet before the consultants got involved, although I'm personally very grateful to the tax-payers for the generous income that study provided for 4 years.

But the report was shelved by the Labour Government the day after it was published, for all practical purposes.
Wasn't that the plan for what has recently been referred to as the "northern" runway option as opposed to "north west"? That being the case, and the process was started in 2003, it would be up and running by now.



Successive announcements have been made about studies into the problem, as though the 003 study did not exist. I think there's one being planned even now, although I don't bother to keep up.

The 3rd short runway at LHR was a good solution when Charles Stuart launched it in the mid '80s; I was proud to have helped him with it. But it got nowhere in the face of stupidity, commercial and operational incompetence and competing vested interests.
IIRC, didn't Labour approve it in 2009 after 6 years of dithering, just to have the Conservatives scrap it a year later?




That lethal combination means that no real addition to London airports' runway capacity is actually going to happen.
Looks that way regretably.



And that, in turn means that any hope of slots being allocated at a viable cost to routes from Plymouth to London is a pipe-dream.
Yes, it's probably the case, any potential West Country link to LHR would be EXT and NQY and PLH would be squeezed, unless an add-on to some EXT-LHR flights or a stop on some NQY-LHR flights. But this all conjecture.




If anyone is interested, the solution to the problem proposed in 2003, and shot down by BAA and NATS working together, was the 2000m parallel (to LGW) runway at Redhill, dedicated to regional services, with an 8-minute overland monorail transfer to Gatwick and a dedicated rail spur to central London from the terminal. When you see Gatwick promoting its own parallel runway, remember that in order to kill off Redhill as a competitor, BAA/NATs declared that a parallel runway could not operate safely without severe movement limitations. It was a lie, of course, but the DfT believed it.
This is dafter than daft. "Heathwick" comes to mind here! Who the hell would pay for a monorail from Redhill to Gatwick (and what would it do to fares!) and what use is it if people need to go to Heathrow?

If there has to be a satelite for "regional services" (think this means "thin domestic routes" (?)), it has to be at Northolt, which is also not particularly suitable but better than Redhill, and it has to be a stopgap till Heathrow is expanded.

Of course it could be a very long stopgap.

[oldpax]

Local paper today states that"Heathrow"to give 10 million towards the airport opening as this is what they would like to see!!Sutton harbor trust has replied with much negativity ,of course!!

[judge11]

The saga of Plymouth's flirtations with various airport projects post-war is littered with missed opportunities, lack of economic vision and (local) political ineptitude.

But perhaps the biggest mistake ever made was the sell-out to Sutton Harbour for short-term financial gain with disastrous consequences for the City and its hinterland.

The best thing the City could do at present is to take the airport, or what remains of it, back under its full control and banish Sutton Holdings forever.:ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

"Local paper today states that"Heathrow"to give 10 million towards the airport opening as this is what they would like to see"

don't wait up to see the cash arrive.............

"Heathrow" would promise anything to anyone to try and get that third runway

[oldpax]

Judge 11,the councils lack of flirtations with so many things that could make Plymouth a great city instead of just a mediocre one .

[Heathrow Harry]

The good people of Plymouth and the surrounding area have proved over the years that theyare only interested in the airport if flights are heavily
subsididised by either the taxpayer or the long suffering shareholders of the airlines

A very small number of people would like a connection to LHR for personal business reasons - everyone else is happy using the train and (god forbid) the bus

The council can sell of the land it and it can be used for development with only a tiny amount of opposition (especially if the alternative is an airport)

Face it Plymouth has gone, Manston will be gone and places like Carlisle, Teeside, Dundee & Newquay are on the edge for the same reasons

[oldpax]

Yes in the UK and heading for Plymouth,been a while but my options are take the bus to Reading and catch a train and if like last time stand all the way,Thai wife not impressed .Or stroll to the bus station and catch a bus that takes five and a half hours,oh what fun!!!
Heathrow Harry ,have you any idea how much money the government could rake in if they paid more attention to tax avoidance schemes?Tax laws made by the very same accountants that work for big business!!!Why should Plymouth not get subsidies?See what G4S got at the Olympics?!!!!

[Heathrow Harry]

You CAn book seats on the train........ in fact for cheap fares you HAVE to book a seat

I am aware of the money stolen by tax-avaoidance schemes but

1. in general those who have the cash, have the cash to pay people who are a damn sight clever than any government and they can (and will) always be a step ahead of that game

2. any extra cash will not necessarily be spent on airports but on fripperies such as defence, old people, the NHS and even roads

[litefoot1]

Plan to reopen Plymouth City Airport smashes through fundraising target | Plymouth Herald (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Plan-reopen-Plymouth-City-Airport-smashes/story-26602140-detail/story.html)

[SWBKCB]

Just read on a photo site that a light aircraft which force landed due to bad weather has been physically blocked from flying out - apparently SHH will allow it to be dismantled and removed, but not flown out. Anybody know any more?

[MerchantVenturer]

Try this link.

Storm forces pilot to make emergency lading at Plymouth's closed airport | Plymouth Herald (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Storm-forces-pilot-make-emergency-landing/story-27613601-detail/story.html)

[Tagron]

Also this:

FLYER Forums ? View topic - Precautionary Landing at Plymouth - Aircraft now 'blocked in (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=96512)

[Bournemouthair]

Abandoned Plymouth City Airport in 2020
https://youtu.be/Uk62-Wmhb14

[yeo valley]

Plymouth airport.
Its nearly hard to think this was a airport at 1 time. Nature soon takes over when structures etc are not in use.Such a shame to see it like this. A good video to show us how Plymouth is like today.

[rog747]

I was Ops D/O until 1986 at LHR for BMA and we handled Brymon Airways who's spiritual home was PLH.

They had a twice daily HP Herald from/to LHR-NQY taken over from BMA in 1977 with morning and evening peak slots, upgraded to x 3 daily with a lunchtime one via EXT and/or PLH when the 50 seat Dash 7's came along in 1981.
There was the Twin Otter LHR-PLH service (3 or 4 times a day IIRC some via EXT) with interline pax connecting onwards to the ISC St Marys especially during the summer (also some pax went via NQY)
The Dash 7 was also was put on the LHR-PLH route (LGW too?) - but when? can someone help.

PLH the home of Brymon - The transformation of Roborough from a tranquil provincial aerodrome into Plymouth City Airport PLH began in March 1975, when Brymon Airways took over the running of the site on a 125-year lease from the City Council.
In the 70's Brymon started regular services from PLH and built up a number of routes taking in LHR, the Channel Islands and to the Isles of Scilly ISC.
As the decade unfolded further destinations were added to include regular flights to Morlaix, Cherbourg and Cork.
In 1978 Brymon were given the go ahead to also fly to Gatwick and the following year a new Plymouth to Birmingham service was inaugurated.
Brymon boss Charles Stuart running through the passenger growth from 1981 to 1985 showed an annual 14% rise on both the LHR routes from the SW.

Some nice old photos here - Brymon Airways at Roborough, Plymouth Airport (http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/brymon_airways_at_plymouth_roborough_airport/)

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1050x750/gate_5393c56a15f4a6685ff38788a5c6dc406b8fa05d.jpg
PLH summers day with 2 young spotters

[EI-BUD]

Interesting stuff, sad to see an airport mothballed.
Does anybody know what the peak traffic levels were? Or rather it's busiest year in pax terms?

[davidjohnson6]

Any truth in the idea of Plymouth heliport ? Or is it just somebody's fantasy ?

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/plymouth-city-heliport-open-flights-3659395

[northsands]

[QUOTE=rog747;10651333]I was Ops D/O until 1986 at LHR for BMA and we handled Brymon Airways who's spiritual home was PLH.

They had a twice daily HP Herald from/to LHR-NQY taken over from BMA in 1977 with morning and evening peak slots, upgraded to x 3 daily with a lunchtime one via EXT and/or PLH when the 50 seat Dash 7's came along in 1981.
There was the Twin Otter LHR-PLH service (3 or 4 times a day IIRC some via EXT) with interline pax connecting onwards to the ISC St Marys especially during the summer (also some pax went via NQY)
The Dash 7 was also was put on the LHR-PLH route (LGW too?) - but when? can someone help.
/QUOTE]

I believe the Dash 7 went onto the twice-daily PLH-LHR route, then a new service, in March 1982, and from that autumn of 1982 the hitherto separate twice-daily NQY-LHR route was combined with PLH, this marking the retirement of the Herald ex NQY. Frequency of the combined Dash 7 service was subsequently upped to 3 a day in 1983, and 4 a day by 1984. As far as I'm aware the only regular EXT call enroute from PLH to LHR was a temporary arrangement during a rail strike in July 1982?

The Twin Otter was scheduled to LGW, not LHR. Twice-daily PLH-LGW began from October 1978 onwards, and EXT was added as an ongoing regular call from Jan 1984, after Air UK ditched their Bandeirante service between EXT & LGW. Dash 7 took over from the Twin Otter c.1988.

[oldpax]

I used the airport from 1978 until 2000 mainly going to and returning to work.Then moved overseas but was shocked at it closing .Now when I visit I have to use crowded trains or worse National express whose buses on the Plymouth route are old and uncomfortable .Surely a small feeder aeroplane of 12 seats etc would make money?

[EI-BUD]

I used the airport from 1978 until 2000 mainly going to and returning to work.Then moved overseas but was shocked at it closing .Now when I visit I have to use crowded trains or worse National express whose buses on the Plymouth route are old and uncomfortable .Surely a small feeder aeroplane of 12 seats etc would make money?

oldpax,
probably demand to some extent but the fixed costs of having the airport would need in the region of 1M pax per year to make ends meet... unless there were government subsidies, would sadly render any operation unviable...

[rog747]

The future issue of any reopening will be that LHR and LGW (the prime mover routes from the SW) will not likely accept small aircraft as it did in days gone by...