EASA register private or AOC

[nitewalker]

Hello all,

I was hoping to get some advise here please. I'm trying to determine the costs of having a medium sized private Jet on an EASA AOC versus operating it privatly on an EASA register. (To save some time, I don't need info about the various registers often used for private operations)

Pointers in the appropriate direction will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[GlobalExpressDriver]

There is no reason to operate under an AOC in EU. Unless you want to lose more money trying to get the fixed costs down.

You can barely get your DOC costs from a charter flight and you have to deal with all the bureaucracy surrounding the AOC.

Non starter.

[Phil Brockwell]

nitewalker

Can you let me know what type you are looking at, and where it will be based.

GlobalExpressDriver there are an awful lot of owners doing exactly what you consider to be a non-starter, however it is not easy and takes a certain amount of business acumen and integrity, I am sure there are those on here that are achieving it that would be happy to help you if you wanted to make the change.

It's not right for every owner (or his crew) / Aircraft type / Location. Some owners simply use the AOC supplier to reduce liabilities and VAT / Tax - every owner's need is unique and we should never assume that ours is the only opinion worth having (says he!)

PB

[PSF2J]

If you already know about the various registers and their options, then why bother asking the question? :ugh:

If you don't know the differences financially between the two, then start looking into VAT and open the tin of worms.

There is obviously plenty of money (probably not yours from your casual attitude) to waste, so have fun :E

[x933]

What Phil said. Depends on the needs of the owner. It can be advantageous from a tax point of view depending on the ownership structure, type, etc.

Charter will seldom make a profit for the owner - however it can make a decent contribution towards the fixed costs of ownership depending on the management company.

Find an operator that already operates the type in question and talk to them. Knowledge is power.

[wondering]

Assuming you are only flying for the owner and have your own basic set-up (crew, hangar, etc) and just want to safe fuel tax then check the numbers. How much does an AOC management contract cost and how much would you safe by not paying tax on fuel? Simple mathematics.

(That´s obviously assuming you don´t have performance issues when flying commercially)

[helimutt]

you could always register it in the Channel Islands (Guernsey) under the new '2' reg, ie 2-XXXX

[silverknapper]

Too many variables. But if it's just for the owner the correct set up on the correct registry, Manx springs to mind, will bring almost all the tax savings with none of the hassle.

[winkwink]

Merely hearsay but from what I've heard silverknapper has the right idea. Most multi millionaires are so tight they are seduced by the thought of saving a million or so on tax and believe the b.s. they are told by the likes of Garage 9 or sTag or Gamut Aviation about how much money they can make in a penny pinching moribund market and they'd be WAY better off staying private.
Any mainstream EASA is a waste. However, he or she who pays the piper plays the tune so if your millionaire wants to spend a pound to save a penny, let them.

[PSF2J]

Silverknapper is indeed spot on. Channel islands reg....why on gods earth at the moment? They still don't have a clear direction on biz jets, and there is little incentive financially. (Says he based in the channel islands with several aircraft...none on the 2-reg!)

[CEQforever]

2-reg certainly seem slow off the ground, but T7- seem to be doing something right, saw 3 of those on the tarmac in Cannes on the last visit?

[Global_Global]

@nitewalker can you enlighten us a bit more about the planned operation so far or was this just a "drive by shooting" post? :8

[fairflyer]

From August 2016 the whole game changes with EU Part-NCC such that it may well be easier for private operations to just hand over to an AOC operator to manage the aircraft as they'll have to do much of the same in requirements for compliance as if they were public transport anyway.

And it covers any aircraft on any register that has a primary base within the EU - so you don't escape the rules by going on the Jersey or Manx or other no-EU registers, makes no difference.

Owners of privately operated turbine aircraft will have to create and maintain an Operations Manual including a safety management system (SMS), they'll need to submit their aircraft to a CAMO and they'll have to sign a declaration that they have fulfilled these obligations and assume responsibility and liability for their operations. If you dont want to or can't manage to do that yourselves, then the easiest option is to hand over to an AOC/Management company that already does these things - for a fee of course.

Got a year to go....

[silverknapper]

Fairflyer

It's not really as bad as you make out.

Using the Manx register as an example as its where most of the people we sell aircraft to register them. They will automatically give a years implementation period if and when the new regs come into place. So worst case that's two years to go.

They will also publish an outline ops manual.

I'm not sure you're correct about CAMO being mandatory. But even if it is it can be had very reasonably, and if you were on an AOC it is mandatory anyway. Most people have their maintenance managed already anyway. And quotes I've seen from the "big" management companies for CAMO are horrendous. Absolutely outrageous when one considers what's involved.

I've no axe to grind or product to sell. Other than seeing owners enjoy the ownership experience. But I've seen a lot of people very dissappointed by their management companies ripping them off after a hard sell based on "economies of scale". And making profit which is subsidised by said owners aircraft being flown at less than the real cost to the owner.

[PSF2J]

fairflyer,

Also you neglect to mention that the Channel Islands are non-EU.....our primary base is there.

psf2j

[deefer dog]

And it covers any aircraft on any register that has a primary base within the EU - so you don't escape the rules by going on the Jersey or Manx or other no-EU registers, makes no difference.

That is an over simplistic and wholly incorrect interpretation. The regulation is crystal clear and does not even mention the word "base" or even the phrase "aircraft base."

Don't confuse subjective guidance material with EU law. The two are poles apart.

[PSF2J]

Deeferdog,

I'd appreciate some help in finding the crystal clear regulation in EU law. Any chance of a link?

So far my research involving EASA runs me round in circles and ends up with me banging my head against the wall.

BWs

PSF2J

[deefer dog]

PSF2J, I could provide many links to EU regulations that you would need to wade through to get to the bottom of the matter, but this guy explains it all in simple terms in an article he wrote for fly corporate mag:

New EU PART-NCC: a revolution riddled with uncertainty | FlyCorporate (http://www.fly-corporate.com/article/regulatory/new-eu-part-ncc-revolution-riddled-uncertainty)

If not included in the link I have his contact details if you need.

[PSF2J]

Brilliant! Thats a great help.

All fine for me at least :cool:

PSF2J