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superq7
11th Mar 2015, 16:02
I use Apple products iPad iPhone etc but I can't see the point in the new watch, to use it apparently it needs to be linked via Bluetooth to an iPhone which is in your pocket anyway, perhaps I'm missing something.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Mar 2015, 16:13
It's another move by Apple to stitch up the world of personal communications. What they stand for is the opposite to 'open systems' which has been the great enabler in IT leading to the Internet et al.

Apple would drag us back to the profitable (for them) but hobbling to technology progress world of locked-in consumers of closed systems. The users are not savvy enough to see this happening, unlike the business users of IT back in the 80s when the yoke of closed systems was thrown off by them.

Apple make superb products that work very well, and are the work of the devil.

Great products, with a business ethos that stinks, relying on ignorant fashion-victim users with their heads up their arses.

mixture
11th Mar 2015, 16:48
it apparently it needs to be linked via Bluetooth to an iPhone which is in your pocket anyway

It doesn't need Bluetooth if your iPhone is on the same WiFi network.

As to why the iPhone is needed for network connection... just think about it for two minutes ... given the size of the watch, you are limited as to what you can put in there and how many features can be "built-in". But in particular,you are limited as to what choices you have for battery .... and as we all know, comms and RF eats up battery. Therefore if an iPhone is nearby, you can use a weaker signal and thus require less energy usage. Your iPhone can then use its larger battery whilst its busy communicating with a cell tower that's much further away. You can also use you're iPhone's RF and battery for GPS too.

I think you also need to remember, that as far as ALL manufacturers are concerned (including Apple), we're still only in the first generation of smart watches ... as the time progresses, and technology improves, no doubt the amount "built-in" to a watch will improve and reliance on external devices will be reduced or eliminated.

It's another move by Apple to stitch up the world of personal communications.

Oh great, here we go, another thread dedicated to mindless Apple bashing ! :ugh::ugh:

So my friend, what exactly are Google doing with Android then ? With "Google Glass" and "Android Wear".

Fact of the matter is that it's a competitive market and Google are one of Apple's largest competitors. It would be foolish for Apple not to adapt to both the demands of the consumers and what Apple's competitors are up to in the marketplace.

locked-in consumers of closed systems.

Apple is not a closed system, as the multitude of app's on the App Store demonstrates to you, anybody can write Apps.

Furthermore Apple's desktop systems all run off an Open Source platform base (BSD) and you may go download all of Apple's source code from Apple's own website at opensource dot apple dot com .... which is more than can be said for Microsoft Windows, for example !

So please Shaggy Sheep Driver, give it a rest. Nobody gives a toss if you don't like or refuse to use Apple products, just don't use it as an excuse to jump on the Apple-bashing bandwagon, because you're going to be proven wrong, time after time due to the distinct lack of facts supporting your "arguments".

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Mar 2015, 16:59
Ah, the great Apple apologist, mixture. Pray tell me where I can buy an iPhone or an iPad made by someone other than Apple? You seem blinkered to what 'open' means. It means I can buy a Windows PC or an Android tablet or phone from any one of many, many manufacturers. And they are in competition with each other. So the prices stay low, and the consumer wins.

I can only buy an i-thingy from Apple. I would be locked into them if I went that way. They can stitch me up like a kipper and charge outrageous prices because they know I can't go anywhere else. Just like the major IT companies (IBM, DEC, etc) did back in the 80s until it was sorted out by a demanding customer base not easily duped.

And if Apple is so open, why can't I run Facetime on my Android tablet / phone?

I think, like many Apple fashion victims, you are too young to remember how closed systems choked mainstream IT development for decades. The really useful developments like the Internet and universal electronic communication only came with open systems. Apple would drag us back to that closed world where the manufacturer does very well thank you, at the expense of the customer base and of progress.

SpringHeeledJack
11th Mar 2015, 17:00
Great products, with a business ethos that stinks, relying on ignorant fashion-victim users with their heads up their arses.

I think that it boils down Form, Fashion, Function and Apple have, as you say, great products, easy to use for not overly tech minded customers and they look good. I'm certain that the majority of the Apple consumers couldn't give a **** about the fact that they can't fiddle around with the hardware or software (outside of those of high-tech ability), but just want something that works and when it burps, a reset is usually the remedy.

To see the glee which the new generation of Apple product consumers display whilst using their purchases shows me that Apple have got their product right for the mass market and people are prepared to pay a premium to have their products as a sign of their taste etc etc. There are potentially ominous consequences of having a very dominant closed system, but alas most aren't looking that far ahead. The watch will do really well I predict, but not like the iPhone, iPad et al. Btw, I'm still using a vintage laptop from Apple, so am not one of the above fanatics :8


SHJ

mixture
11th Mar 2015, 17:07
Shaggy Sheep Driver,

I'm not going to waste keyboard time with you. You're never going to listen.

I get the impression I've seen a lot more of the developments over the decades in the IT industry than you have, and I get the impression that I understand the IT industry a lot more than you do.

If I'm wrong in that impression, then I offer my apologies, but quite frankly I don't see any of the people I know in the industry write the nonsense that you just have.

three eighty
11th Mar 2015, 17:32
If you don't like, don't buy it.
Here endeth the lesson!

Mushroom_2
11th Mar 2015, 17:32
Evidently buried in the small print on the Apple website:

Battery usage of 3 hours if used to make phone calls; 6 hrs if listening to music and 7 hrs if used as a fitness monitor. No mention of usage when listening to music while working out!

You might want to take a battery pack or a long extension cord with you Mixture when your out and about wearing your wonderful new timepiece.

mixture
11th Mar 2015, 17:40
No mention of usage when listening to music while working out!

Probably because listening to music is no doubt a built-in function that does not use RF and so will have a much longer battery life ! :ugh:

You might want to take a battery pack or a long extension cord with you Mixture when your out and about wearing your wonderful new timepiece.

As I said before, these are the first generation of smart watches from ALL manufacturers.

They are not going to be perfect, they are not going to have a super battery life.... its a first generation product !

Accordingly, because I'm perfectly happy with my present watch, and I understand the possible implications of being an early-adopter of a first generation product, I'm going to wait until the second generation before even considering taking a look at ANY smart watch, be it from Apple or any other manufacturer !

The hardware design process on these probably started 3-5 years ago, when technology was vastly different....what's coming next, where the design process started in 2014/2015 is likely to be the more interesting stuff !

ExXB
11th Mar 2015, 17:50
C'mon you guys. Can't we discuss this product and leave the mud slinging to other existing threads.

I'm actually very interested in the Apple Watch's capability of being used as a continuous glucose monitor. I would buy one of the gold ones if I could have that. But will it work? Will it work well?

Radix
11th Mar 2015, 18:17
..........

Tu.114
11th Mar 2015, 19:19
So this device is planned as a fitness monitor. This means it is intended to be swung around, shaken and stirred.

Many old(ish) electric watches have half a flywheel installed that when moved starts to revolve at a remarkable speed and spins a little generator. This would seem (to my uninformed mind) to be a logical addition to this watch, as it would certainly extend battery life a little bit. But there must be a reason to omit this, I am sure?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Mar 2015, 20:07
I can't think of a single technology company that has people camping outside their stores time and time again when the new iteration of product comes along.

That says everything you need to know about Apple fashion victims. I remember a TV reporter asking one such camper why he was letting this bit of not-very-important consumer electronics so rule his life; "because the new model has.... a nicer coloured case than the present model"!

There is no way that person wasn't very, very stupid. And very very typical of the type.

How can you expect such 'more money and spare time than sense' shallow no-nothings to see the way Apple is manipulating the market? As someone else on this thread said:

There are potentially ominous consequences of having a very dominant closed system, but alas most aren't looking that far ahead.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Mar 2015, 20:13
Accordingly, because I'm perfectly happy with my present watch
Perfectly happy with mine too.

Although I'm pretty sure they told me when I bought it that the battery life was a year, in practice it lasts several times that long.

Whiskey Kilo Wanderer
11th Mar 2015, 20:16
Just got my new Apple Watch:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11052417_10153851033969298_2627379021593147700_n.jpg?oh=e83a e759f8398fe81970609e7360f03f&oe=5572B5E5&__gda__=1434401968_ba99ad4e0f31816bb21c72fa8ea2e893

4mastacker
11th Mar 2015, 21:50
Buggrit!! I was expecting something about Kate Humble or Michaela Strachan. :(

Radix
12th Mar 2015, 01:54
..........

TWT
12th Mar 2015, 03:03
No-one is forcing people to shell out their hard-earned on Apple products.

People do their research and make their own decisions.Apple's success is a true phenomenon,not many companies can put high margins on devices and still have high demand.If people want to stand in line waiting for their newest product or decide to change it because they like the newest colours more,then so what ?

(I've never owned or used an Apple product,alternatives always supplied by my employer)

Metro man
12th Mar 2015, 03:16
I wonder how long before the first person tries to swim while wearing one.;)

meadowrun
12th Mar 2015, 04:13
I'm looking at a bit of newfangled kit as well ...


http://forum.stereophile.com/images/reccomp2013/turntables/041013.tech.1.jpg

TWT
12th Mar 2015, 04:46
That turntable weighs 79kg,more than I weigh !

Shaggy Sheep Driver
12th Mar 2015, 09:27
No-one is forcing people to shell out their hard-earned on Apple products.

People do their research and make their own decisions.Apple's success is a true phenomenon,not many companies can put high margins on devices and still have high demand.If people want to stand in line waiting for their newest product or decide to change it because they like the newest colours more,then so what ?

...Which completely misses my point! While at the same time reinforcing it!

Brill!

Shaggy Sheep Driver
12th Mar 2015, 09:41
I'm not going to waste keyboard time with you. You're never going to listen.

I get the impression I've seen a lot more of the developments over the decades in the IT industry than you have, and I get the impression that I understand the IT industry a lot more than you do.

If I'm wrong in that impression, then I offer my apologies, but quite frankly I don't see any of the people I know in the industry write the nonsense that you just have.

Mixture, the fact that you don't address the specific points I make, but merely throw excrement at me, indicates you don't know what you are talking about. As for your industry experience, what is it? Fairly recent I'd guess, and centred on personal IT.

Me? I started in 1970 with Burroughs and later DEC initially in hardware support using a scope to fix computers to component level (so programming them in machine code noddies to diagnose, then scoping through the circuits to find the faulty gate in the chip. So I know a bit about how they work).

With the advent of micro programme control I moved to a software house and became a project engineer, project manager, then into services as solution architect leading many teams of technical experts in such disciplines as databases, storage, comms, data centres, applications etc. etc. on multi million pound bids into large corporates worlwide, and into UK government accounts as one of the top members of the client sales team. Much of what we did was not really technology, but business change before applying technology.

I retired 7 years ago. You couldn't replicate my career experience today as I 'grew up' with the industry. The technical experts on my teams had to specialise in quite narrow areas because of the overall complexity of a system with a price tag running to many, many millions. I had the luxury in the early days to be involved in'the whole picture' in way that's impossible now.

I am therefore somewhat suspect of folk who can fix problems on PCs and Macs and routers and call themselves IT consultants!

I suspect I could tell you an awful lot more about the battle against closed systems round about the 1980s, and the subsequent winning of that battle and the technological advances in leaps and bounds that followed than you can even dream of. So Apple, you see, is deja vu for me.

I wonder if you realise that applying IT isn't about technology, it's about business change and even lifestyle change. That's why what Apple is attempting to do is so important.

MOSTAFA
12th Mar 2015, 10:17
SSD I think you are spot on but the issues for most are that Apple are really only interested if you are going to update to the new iThingy every single time a new thingy comes out - IOS 8 is an unacceptable failure to many who coughed up thousands of pounds only a few years ago. We are now on the 5th or 6th update to iOS8 and many believe they had more capable machines with iOS 7.

cattletruck
12th Mar 2015, 10:25
A few months ago someone at work traded his Qantas FF points for a smart watch (not Apple). He loves it, but he's into gadget things anyway. Honestly, they look pretty novel and it does lots of interesting things when linked with the internet, he showed me some and I was very impressed. Even though it only has a battery charge for about a day he doesn't mind.

Me, I don't even wear a watch and care a little more about privacy. Horses for courses.

mixture
12th Mar 2015, 10:41
Shaggy Sheep Driver,

As previously explained, I'm not going to waste further keyboard time on your cause.

Thus your long post was made in vain as I'm not going to comment on it at all, despite the temptation to continue demonstrating to you the multitude errors in your thinking and assumptions.

May finally also take this opportunity to welcome you to the select few who've made it onto my PPRuNe Ignore List.

Good riddance.

abgd
12th Mar 2015, 11:10
Mixture: look at the history of bitcoin wallet apps.

Whether or not you believe in bitcoins, my point is that with closed systems, Apple have a lot of power in dictating what we may or may not do with our hardware.

mixture
12th Mar 2015, 11:26
Afraid I don't follow bitcoin developments, at all. :cool:

It would appear from a brief googoo that the Bitcoin community took great pleasure in making mountains out of molehills !

It could be said that Bitcoin operates in a bit of a grey area legally and so that's probably why Apple were in two minds about it and ultimately initially erred on the side of caution. You have to remember they distribute their products worldwide, including in various politically sensitive countries, and so a certain amount of caution is required to maintain brand integrity and avoid the prospect for controversy.

Apple also want to maintain some quality, there is a lot of rubbish on the other non-Apple app stores.

I also repeat, given the vast wide range of apps available on the App store, Apple is far from being a closed-shop. And of course, if you are developing for Apple desktops or laptops then you can pretty much program whatever you like as long as it will run on a BSD based system.

Apple are not 100% perfect, I never said they were, and I challenge you to name me a manufacturer that is. But compared to the majority of the IT industry Apple are doing very well in many respects. I suspect some people are just quietly jealous of Apple and their well-deserved success ! They do put in a lot of hard work, much more than many of the Apple bashers realise.

abgd
12th Mar 2015, 12:05
So if something is forbiden in jurisdiction A (but not B), Apple are justified in stopping me doing it in jurisdiction B even though it's not illegal there?

I can understand their reasons, but the outcome is still unnecessarily restrictive. I have a friend who works for Apple and I will take my hat off to them for the design and usability of their products.

I've never owned anything owned by Apple, however.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
12th Mar 2015, 12:07
Mixture, I didn't expect you to respond, merely absorb. Sorry you can't take it.

My advice - stop digging! :)

rgbrock1
12th Mar 2015, 16:21
Shaggy:

DEC?!!!! I started with OpenVMS running on VAXen, Alpha and now Itanium many moons ago (DEC > Compaq > HP > VMS Inc) And I'm still at it! Ain't many of us VMS folks left anymore (either retired, moved on, or dead) so we are a rare breed of two-legged geek. :}

mixture
12th Mar 2015, 17:05
So if something is forbiden in jurisdiction A (but not B), Apple are justified in stopping me doing it in jurisdiction B even though it's not illegal there?

Well, it was just a guess as to the reason why for Bitcoin ... so I don't really want to pile a debate on top of a guess.

I further gather from gogoo that Bitcoin is back on Apple iOS now, so hopefully the Bitcoiners can get back to whatever Bitcoiners do. :cool:

Lonewolf_50
12th Mar 2015, 18:01
Great products, with a business ethos that stinks, relying on ignorant fashion-victim users with their heads up their arses.
Perfume companies and fashion houses have been doing this for decades.
I think that is where Jobs stole his business model from. :cool:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
12th Mar 2015, 19:08
VMS? Pah! I was mostly a PDP11 man at DEC; RSTS, RSX11, MUMPS etc. :ok:

Remember 'All In One', DEC's office systems suite? Word processor, spreadsheet etc? But it only ran on VMS. IBM, HP, DG and all the others had their own such systems. As a systems integrator those dark days of closed systems were a nightmare. One branch of a company running IBM. Another, ICL, a third, DG. Getting integrated office systems to work across such an organisation was well nigh impossible, certainly if you wanted the sort of seamless inter-operability open systems brought later!

I remember our first 'open systems' project - an operater simulator for Berkeley nuclear power station. We decided Vax and OSI would not only be expensive, but almost certainly not fast enough to provide real time simulation. We went with then-upstart Sun Microsystems UNIX and TCP/IP, won the contract, and it worked a treat!

SpringHeeledJack
12th Mar 2015, 19:17
Perfume companies and fashion houses have been doing this for decades.
I think that is where Jobs stole his business model from.

That's part of the genius of Apple, their products are desired by people who aren't tech-minded because of their visual and avant-garde qualities, people are enchanted by the dream for want of a better word, much as they do with perfume, which is effectively inexpensive components wrapped in a special bottle, with a special colour and enacted by celebrities on the goggle box. It is genius and their crazy market worth as a company is testament to this.

My old laptop can be still mucked around with regarding hardware, which I have done, but the newer versions, or modern in other words ;) appear to be only workshop accessible if upgrades and/or repairs are needed.


SHJ

ORAC
12th Mar 2015, 20:18
Quote: I think that is where Jobs stole his business model from.
That's part of the genius of Apple, their products are desired by people who aren't tech-minded because of their visual and avant-garde qualities..

Hmm. Ex RAF, OIC Battle Management Systems in the UKCAOC with 38 different systems all using different OS and printers. Subsequent 15 years as a senior systems engineer on multiple system/software integration programmes. A qualified MS Software etc etc - but all my own kit is Apple, go figure....

ps. I won't buy a watch. Nobody under 30 wears them, they have time on their phone. Limited market for wrist wear, you can always look up stats after and eye wear can/will overtake once Google gets past Gen1.

Apple starts to realise the lack of the genius of Jobs...

Shaggy Sheep Driver
12th Mar 2015, 20:40
You're under 30, then.

Presumably the only people who don't wear a watch but look at their phone for the time are those who have it in their hands constantly?

My phone (8 year old Nokia) lives in my shirt breast pocket most of the time, under a sweater and / or coat in winter. If I want to make / receive a call I dig it out. If I want the time I twist my wrist and glance at my watch. Much quicker and also hands-free!

And how do you check the time on your phone when you're riding a big rorty motorcycle (not a soft tourer with a dashboard clock)?

Denti
12th Mar 2015, 20:59
Started on a mixed park of PDP 9s, a few VAX clusters and later some Alphas as well as quite a few unix systems, NEXT cubes and yes, a hell of a lot of apple products, mainly for video, photo and desktop use, although suns "pizza boxes" were quite liked for that as well. When i left the professional IT world apple had just switched all its macs to intel CPUs. Nowadays i happily use quite a lot of apples products and probably will get a watch at some point, but more interesting for me is the new macbook, a few of those will replace a few of my older MBAs. I still use a single windows/linux PC at home, mainly for 3d gaming as there is much more software for that platform, although an increasing number of games gets released for linux and apple as well.

Personally i do have used a smartwatch for around a year now (pebble steel) and it is surprisingly useful. Especially during meetings, but during normal days as well. My phone remains mostly in the pocket, switched to silent without any vibration which is what the watch does. Watch vibration is not noticeable to others so it is a very discreet way to receive notifications and call announcements. Since most communication these days is done via texting, be it whatsapp, threema, facebook, or old fashioned email, calls are pretty rare though. If i have to wear a business attire i switch to one of my mechanical watches though, they just fit better in that kind of stuff, the apple watch might make it possible to wear a smartwatch with a suit as well though.

ExXB
12th Mar 2015, 22:16
I alluded to it in my previous post. Continuous Glucose Monitoring would change the lives of all Type 1 diabetics, and improve the lives off many type 2s.

So does any PPRuNer have any info on how this is going to work?

I test my bold sugar levels 5-9 times a day using finger pricks and a portable metre. This givies me a snapsut of my glucose lever at those 5-9 points in the day. To know continuously through out the day would improve my managing of my T1 diabetes a thousand fold.

This would be a real game changer for the 10% of the population with diabetes (26% of the over 65s).

This alone would justify the costs, low battery life and just about every other negative shared on this thread.

mixture
12th Mar 2015, 22:27
So does any PPRuNer have any info on how this is going to work?


Dexcom’s Apple Watch app relies on a tiny monitor that is inserted under the skin to measure blood glucose levels every five minutes.

I rather suspect you might have read that bit though and are looking for more detail ?

Turbine D
13th Mar 2015, 00:17
SSD:

Apple make superb products that work very well, and are the work of the devil.
Great products, with a business ethos that stinks, relying on ignorant fashion-victim users with their heads up their arses.

Congratulation, these two sentences have gained your entrance into a very exclusive club. I believe there will be a meeting in London where you will be welcomed as a new member, time, location and date, TBD. Some other members in the club (not all will make your membership reception):

“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.” — Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp.

“We will never make a 32 bit operating system.” — Bill Gates

“There is practically no chance communications space satellites will be used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television, or radio service inside the United States.” — T. Craven, FCC Commissioner, in 1961

“Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.” — Lord Kelvin, British mathematician and physicist, president of the British Royal Society, 1895.

“This is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives.” — Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy during World War II, advising President Truman on the atomic bomb, 1945.

“The Americans have need of the telephone, but we do not. We have plenty of messenger boys.” — Sir William Preece, Chief Engineer, British Post Office, 1878.

“X-rays will prove to be a hoax.” — Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society, 1883.

“I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea.” — HG Wells, British novelist, in 1901.

“Television won’t last. It’s a flash in the pan.” — Mary Somerville, pioneer of radio educational broadcasts, 1948.

We live about 5 miles from a rather upscale shopping mall. Besides the "fashion" stores, there is an Apple store and a Microsoft store. The Apple store is 4 times larger than the Microsoft store. The Apple store has so many employees to help you as you enter, it is delightful as a customer. OTOH, the Microsoft store has two employees, usually standing outside the store watching the shoppers go by.

The difference between the two businesses is that Apple sells what the customers want to buy, where Microsoft sells what they want to sell. It is the difference between business success and failure.:ok:

meadowrun
13th Mar 2015, 01:27
I have a computer and use Microsoft, mostly by default. I have never felt any sort of need to ever go to a Microsoft store. This also means I have no need or desire to visit an Apple store.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
13th Mar 2015, 10:02
Turbine D - you'll find the 'Missed the Point Club' entrance door right over there....

I've been MS ever since PCs were invented. Never ever needed a 'Microsoft store' (even if there is such a thing).

I did visit an Apple store once (of which there are many, in fashion outlets mostly, which says it all), to buy a grossly over-priced laptop for younger daughter who needed it for an arty college course. The luvvy s/w would only run on this expensive fashion item, apparently!

ORAC
13th Mar 2015, 11:32
KHZ8ek-6ccc

Radix
13th Mar 2015, 12:51
..........

Ancient Mariner
13th Mar 2015, 13:05
It is sooo goood to have reached an age when fashion don't matter.
Except for watches, all analog, my only requirement is that the gadget fulfils my needs.
Do keep the discussion going though, highly amusing.
Per

mostlylurking
13th Mar 2015, 13:34
I bought the 1st Pebble watch off Kickstarter 2 years ago and last year got the steel version. There were several attractions for me: no longer missing calls because of a noisy environment, not having to open the phone every time a message came through and only having to charge it once a week. There were other 'smart' watches out, but the all had about a 24 hour battery life - not very smart. Its enough of a PITA to have to charge it once a week (it gives you warning about 24 hrs notice). I don't need colour, or flashy, impractical features.
To me the Apple watch is just about bling, but I think that is its whole point.
Evere noticed how everyone who has an Apple device makes damm sure you know it?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
13th Mar 2015, 13:51
Radix - I suspected you were a fashion victim. Thanks for confirming. And, back on topic, your being manipulated by Apple might suit you fine, but you really should see the bigger picture; if you ever look up from your ithingy!

Lonewolf_50
13th Mar 2015, 14:25
Some other members in the club (not all will make your membership reception):
To add to the list you provided ...
Decca Records rejected the Beatles, saying "guitar groups are on the way out" and "The Beatles have no future in show business," Decca instead chose Brian Poole and the Tremeloes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Poole_and_the_Tremeloes), who auditioned the same day as the Beatles, as they were local and would require lower travel expenses.
The difference between the two businesses is that Apple sells what the customers want to buy, where Microsoft sells what they want to sell. It is the difference between business success and failure.:ok:
Microsoft is not a business failure, Turbine D, in case you hadn't noticed. ;)

rgbrock1
13th Mar 2015, 15:56
I'm going to add my unsolicited 2 cents here.

I'm an IT Engineer. I've been in IT for many, many years. (More than I care to think about.) I work 99% of the time with OpenVMS/VMS clusters. I started with PDP 11's, went to VAXen, then Alpha and now Itanium servers. OpenVMS, for those who aren't in the know, is a command line (CLI) operating system. No menus to poke out, no mouse to manipulate, all command line.

I also work with Linux on a fairly regular basis as well as UNIX.

To a lesser degree I work with MS Windoze.

I, my kids and the wife all have a plethora of Apple products. Not because we're trying to make a statement but simply because Apple products, in our view, are tightly integrated, function very well, are reliable and are very well engineered and manufactured.

As for the high price of Apple products, allow me to point something out. Most, if not all, Apple products have aluminum, or alloy, as the main component of the outer shell. Most non-Apple products use plastic. Some use very obvious cheap-ass plastic. That, in and of itself, is a reason for the higher price attached to Apple products.

ANY computer system from a Cray "monster" computer, through IBM mainframes, HP OpenVMS clusters, Linux servers on down to the desktop PC are merely tools. Tools to accomplish a task. And whichever tool one feels most comfortable using is the key. For me, using Apple products - when I can - is my choice and based on my feeling that it is the most efficient at getting a given task done.

meadowrun
13th Mar 2015, 16:11
Aluminium used to cost more than gold. The Washington Monument is capped with a solid triangular cone of it. The Chrysler Building features a lot of it in art deco styling. When installed it was very, very expensive. Now, not so much.
Hardly a justification for higher Apple pricing.


6061-T6 in sheets (aircraft grade). - $1200 - 3500 USD/metric ton

mixture
13th Mar 2015, 17:24
When installed it was very, very expensive. Now, not so much.
Hardly a justification for higher Apple pricing.
6061-T6 in sheets (aircraft grade). - $1200 - 3500 USD/metric ton

It may well be $1200-3500 USD per ton ....as a raw material !

What about by the time you've finished shipping it about ?
What about by the time you've finished machining it to obsessive tolerances ?
What about all the R&D processes Apple go through ?

Your argument is a bit like saying Aluminium is cheap, a few cables and wires are cheap, those seats I picked up last week from IKEA were cheap ... so why is my new Boeing so expensive ?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
13th Mar 2015, 17:24
At the risk of repetition:

Apple products are expensive because you can only buy them from one source; Apple. And because you can only buy them from Apple it's in Apple's interest to lock users in. They are closed, rather than open, systems. And that's unhealthy for everyone except Apple.

The fact that they work very well and integrate superbly with other expensive Apple kit is entirely beside the point made above.

mixture
13th Mar 2015, 17:34
Microsoft is not a business failure, Turbine D, in case you hadn't noticed.

Not wishing to put words into Turbine's mouth, but I think you'll find the point Turbine was seeking to make is that the part of Microsoft that runs the Microsoft Stores found in his local shopping center are not exactly thriving compared to the part of Microsoft that deals with businesses and governments.

The part of Microsoft that pushes out consumer products has had mixed success, they wouldn't be left with much if they didn't have Microsoft Windows and Office to flog to the punters on the street. Even the Xbox has fallen behind the mighty Sony in gaming marketshare.

I mean how many attempts have Microsoft made at trying to make a smartphone that runs Windows ? :E

You would have thought they would have given up by now, but instead they're so desperate to gain some sort of foot in the mobile market that they resorted to buying Nokia instead !

Turbine D
13th Mar 2015, 17:46
SSD
I distinctly note that you have fallen behind the "time/times", pun intended. MS has moved on, following Apple's lead of course. To help bring you up to date you can browse these:

View all stores - Microsoft Store U.S. (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/locations/)
They now have over 100 stores in the US, Canada & Puerto Rico and more on the way. MS hasn't located a store in the UK, instead their first European store will be in Finland, of all places.

Besides Xboxes for gamers, PC operating systems (are they up to Windows 13 yet?), Skype and MSN which I think was overrun by Google and other competitors. MS is now in the watch game, yes they are!:ok:
Microsoft Band | Official Site (http://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-band/en-us)
I think it even comes with a disassembly, assembly diagram in case you are into how things work.:cool: As a side note, I was a MS person from day one as well until the day I needed some technical help from MS. The technical help came from somewhere on the planet, I think, but from a person that spoke broken English and was barely understandable. The help person ended the session by stating he couldn't help.:confused: I switched to Apple.;)

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q609/DaveK72/MS_Band_Explode_zps5mtr6i5p.png (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/DaveK72/media/MS_Band_Explode_zps5mtr6i5p.png.html)

Lonewolf
I never said MS doesn't make money, they do, just not nearly as much as Apple does, but MS stores are very questionable in terms of profitability.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
13th Mar 2015, 18:06
Turbine D, fallen behind whose times? I get the technology I need, not the technology fashion urges me to waste money on. Hence I have an old, simple PAYG phone that costs me about £3 a month to run. It does more than I need!

I have a Dell laptop running Windows XP that I'm typing this on. Works superbly, and has for the 8 years I've had it. Likewise the 'house' Dell desktop, also an XP machine.

I also have a Nexus 7 tablet running open Android that works very well and cost £150; compare that to an iPad! I use that to take around and about with me if I'm likely to need email etc while away from home.

Oh and 2 watches; an everyday one and a posh one.

The thing is, Turbine, not to let fashion or the likes of Apple drive your technology spend. Let your technology needs drive your technology spend instead. Might not suit a fashion victim, but it sure works for me!

Turbine D
13th Mar 2015, 18:14
SSD
At the risk of repetition:

Apple products are expensive because you can only buy them from one source; Apple. And because you can only buy them from Apple it's in Apple's interest to lock users in.
Not exactly true. I bought two Apple iPhone 6 from Verizon, our wireless provider. The cost of the first one was fully rebated through a gift certificate that was applied to the second one, covering its cost minus the sales tax. The only thing to agree to is a two year wireless contract, not a problem as Verizon has the best nationwide coverage of any wireless service in the USA. iPads, Mac computers and laptops can be bought from a big box store by the name of Best Buy along with all the accessories.
Best Buy: Expert Service. Unbeatable Price. (http://www.bestbuy.com)

Just trying to get you up to date.:ok:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
13th Mar 2015, 18:22
Turbine, so you got one cheap as part of a deal with a 3rd party? You didn't, you know! Included in the price of that deal with the 3rd party was balance of the real cost of the i device and price you paid for it!

There's no free lunch.

Just trying to enlighten you from the weasel words you've fallen for there from that supplier. That's how business works in the real world - the customer pays the bill; all of it! :ok:

VP959
13th Mar 2015, 22:00
We've been here before.

There are a strange breed of Apple supporters who are so blinkered that they cannot see any negative aspects in being tied in to a singe vendor, Sure Apple stuff works very, very well with other Apple stuff, and is delightful to use. That's why it sells for a premium price.

There are plenty of people who, for a host of reasons have to use several different systems, and need to make them all talk to each other. With Apple stuff this is near-impossible. With Microsoft stuff it used to be easy, but since Windows 7 has been as damned near as awkward to do as with Apple stuff. Linux is a real mixed bag. 99% of the time Linux talks to pretty much anything over any network (with the exception of Apple "i" devices). Android is (based on my limited experience of a month of use with it) seems to connect seemlesly with anything (except Apple "i" devices).

As for the Apple Watch, I can't help feeling that it's missed the boat. I stopped wearing a watch a couple of years ago, as there was no point; so many thiings around me told me the time (including my phone) that the watch had become redundant. I have to say it was a surprising relief to walk around with nothing n my wrist, such a benefit that there's no way I'd o back to putting something this bulky on my wrist.

Nowadays I only wear a watch is dressed up for some formal do, where phones are verboten. I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of the target market for the Apple Watch don't normally wear a watch either. Take a look around, watches are now far less popular than they once were.

Keef
13th Mar 2015, 22:49
Apple are no fools. They've created products that work, and that appeal to a large customer base to make them very healthy profits. They are successful enough that they attract vicious criticism from those who happen not to like the business model. I'm sure Apple cares not one jot. "Don't like it, then don't buy it."

For Christmas, wife got a Nexus 7 (she didn't think she wanted it, but likes it and uses it plenty), daughter 1 got an iPad Mini (she desperately wanted it). The two devices are about the same size. One cost many times the price of the other, but they both do about the same job. Both users are happy. Clever Apple!

I use an iPhone and an iPad every day. They do what I want, albeit with significant niggles because of the "lockdown" that meant I had to jailbreak them before I could use them for some of my purposes. If I could have found non-Apple devices that would do the job, that's what I'd have bought. These days, I suspect I could - but the iThings are there and working so I'm not looking. Come update time, I'll look at the options.

I find iTunes a complete pain in the neck - it's slow, pernickety, and illogical. It's proof that Apple don't always get it right. It seems to need updating most months, and each time it becomes a little less user-friendly. It drags with it things called Quicktime and Cloud - neither of which I use or need. Fortunately, I no longer have to use it to keep the iThings working: they update direct, and I no longer keep "master copies" of anything on them so don't need to back them up.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Mar 2015, 00:41
VP959 has it. It's not about how good the products are (they are!) it's about being tied to a single vendor.

Turbine D
14th Mar 2015, 01:18
Keef,
I pretty much agree with what you have written. I think whatever product or system chosen is based on individual needs, product usage and cost. Our entire immediate family that is spread out across the USA from the Rocky Mountains in the West to the Long Island Sound in the East use Apple products. It wasn't planned, it just evolved that way over the years.

Apple had a good business model that evolved over a period of time. In the US, they essentially donated to grade schools and high schools Apple computer systems, no cost to the schools. Kids learned computers on Apple products, not Microsoft software products who's sales were focused on businesses world-wide. In 2002, Microsoft was ranked #1 in market capitalization, Apple was not in the top 10. In 2014, Apple was ranked #1 with a market capitalization nearly double that of Microsoft. That lofty perch is only reached with a good business model. Today, the company I worked for provides its management and office staff with iPads and iPhones replacing Dell computers and Blackberries of the past. The Apple watch's future is yet to be determined but I suspect it will have a future.

If I want to know something I don't know about my Apple iPhone or MacBook, I ask my 9 year old granddaughter, she seemingly knows everything.

BTW, the difference in price between a Nexus 7 16G tablet and an Apple mini 16G iPad is only a little over US $50 at Best Buy. Things must be different in the UK.

I do agree that the iTune site has become more complex. I need to do more homework on this (asking my granddaughter) but I think all the music you purchase is stored in the cloud and can be pulled out and used on linked devises.

To those who object to the "closed" systems or one vendor, try buying a brand new, just out of the showroom, Mercedes Benz or BMW at your Ford dealer or vice versa.

To SSD:
As much as you may think you know about business in the real world, you may not know everything. In the US, there are 5 major wireless service companies which provide wireless service across the total US, including Verizon. They compete with one another in terms of obtaining customers. Besides the major 5, there dozens of others, more local, in providing wireless service. The 2 iPhone 6s I obtained were at a cost of sales tax alone, nothing more. The service rates at Verizon are competitive with the other 4 major providers. The business model used is known as "Share to Gain" and they all attempt to use it. "Share to Gain" was the business model used by CFM International to capture the single aisle engine market for their parent companies, GE and SNECMA at the time it was instituted. It has worked rather well then and now…

BOING
14th Mar 2015, 02:09
I'm with VP959.
Nowadays I only wear a watch is dressed up for some formal do, where phones are verboten. I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of the target market for the Apple Watch don't normally wear a watch either. Take a look around, watches are now far less popular than they once were.

Time on the car dash, time on the GPS, time on the phone, time all around the house, time on the coffee maker, time on the oven, time on the computer, time in most places of business. It's a relief to get away from time because so many people I deal with are stressed out by it.

I have a drawer full of watches - my favourite went in there when I retired and it has hardly been out since. A new Apple watch, any watch, no way.


.

Keef
14th Mar 2015, 10:23
Exactly so, Turbine D. Wife's Nexus was the "standard issue", 16GB. Daughter's iPad Mini was the top-of-the-range model, with lots of memory - because with an iPad that's what you "have to have". I think handbag cred came into it somewhere. I don't mind: both are happy.

I don't let iTunes put my music onto Apple's server (which is what I think they mean by "in the cloud"). It's on my PC, in a folder I chose (not buried umpteen levels down in hidden folders on drive C). Thus I can play it with any music app for the PC.

I organised it into playlists - lots of those - which iTunes used to display by playlist name with the catalogue showing what's in the playlist. Now, the playlists are on a panel, each with a large picture of a pair of crotchets and the abbreviated name of the playlist (and no details of contents) - a total waste of space! I mean - why would they do this:

http://jillings.org/ituneslogic.jpg

ORAC
14th Mar 2015, 10:43
I don't let iTunes put my music onto Apple's server (which is what I think they mean by "in the cloud"). It's on my PC, in a folder I chose (not buried umpteen levels down in hidden folders on drive C). Thus I can play it with any music app for the PC. I think you misunderstand how iTunes Match (http://computers.tutsplus.com/tutorials/getting-the-most-out-of-itunes-match--cms-21336) works.

My music is on my laptop, copied in hi-def from my CDs (ALE), and stays there so I can listen in hi-def, play over my Sonos etc. When I synch to the Cloud it checks my library and checks off my library against theirs (encoded to 256 Kbps) and bookmarks them accordingly; if I have a tune they do not, they copy mine. Thereafter if I am online with another device I have access to and can play any of my music without using local storage - freeing it up for alternate use.

And iCloud (http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/icloud-drive-work/) also automatically synchs my photos, mail, apps, calendars, keychain etc.

I find all that incredibly useful and timesaving between my laptop, phone and iPad.

cattletruck
14th Mar 2015, 12:01
Local plod is currently investigating the legalities of simply wearing a smart watch while driving constitutes using a mobile phone illegally.

It a whole new can of worms....there's an app for that.

Radix
14th Mar 2015, 19:56
..........

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Mar 2015, 20:18
But please don't get unhappy because others are happy.

Radix, you're just not reading what I'm posting if you think that. Go back and read what I actually posted, not what you assumed I'd posted. Have a look at VP959's posts as well.

mixture
14th Mar 2015, 20:49
Some good points there Radix, but just to pick you up on one point....

Apple to make Windows

Apple is fundamentally a software company. Whether it be the OS X or iOS operating systems, or the various other bits of software.

But the point with Apple is that they want to deliver the coherent product experience to the user.

Its not a money making decision as some might have you believe, but rather its the desire to resolve compatibility, troubleshooting and other concerns from the user. Apple spends a lot of R&D time and money developing their hardware and testing component interoperability ... and it pays off, their hardware is incredibly reliable and well-built.

Don't forget... Apple did go through the "clone-era" where they permitted third-parties to build computers that ran Apple software. That was one big failure because of all the issues highlighted above, the clone-era turned into one big competition as to which third party could build the hardware cheapest, so you had cheap components etc.

As Alan Kay once said :
People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware

Once you start to introduce that layer of abstraction between hardware and software, then you loose the engineering element because you now instead have a trust dependency on the hardware doing what it says it should.

You see that today, for example, in the very common scenario when people pick Windows or Linux and then go install it on a cheap and very nasty Celeron or i3 based computer with insufficient RAM. As far as the software Microsoft/Linux developers are concerned, they've done their job and it works. As far as the user is concerned, they've got a very unhappy user experience in front of them. And 99.9% of the time ... the user won't blame the hardware manufacturer, but they blame what they see ... Windows (or Linux) for being sluggish and laggy.

Its been proven time after time in IT that to succeed you must consider the system as a whole. And whether or not you like Apple, time after time apple have proven that they understand that, and more importantly they understand how to implement that understanding in reality.

KBPsen
14th Mar 2015, 21:21
Some numbers:

According to those who know these things (http://press.ihs.com/press-release/design-supply-chain/iphone-6-plus-100-costlier-consumers-buy%E2%80%94just-1550-more-expensive-), it costs Apple $200 and $215 to produce an iPhone 6 and 6 Plus. They sell for $649 and $749 respectively.

Apple's R&D budget (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f93b7122-5e57-11e4-bc04-00144feabdc0.html) in 2014 was $6 billion. They sold 74.5 million iPhones (http://techcrunch.com/2015/01/27/apple-iphone-sales-q1-2015/) in Q1 2015. The entire 2014 R&D budget was thus recuperated in less than 2 weeks on iPhones sales alone.

Anyway you slice or dice it, Apple is able to charge a premium on status, bling, hype or whatever you want to call it.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Mar 2015, 21:23
Its been proven time after time in IT that to succeed you must consider the system as a whole.

Brilliant observation, Mixture. My, you really do know your IT stuff don't you. :rolleyes:

mixture
14th Mar 2015, 21:30
Apple's R&D budget in 2014 was $6 billion. They sold 74.5 million iPhones in Q1 2015. The entire 2014 R&D budget was thus recuperated in less than 2 weeks on iPhones sales alone.


Love the way at which KBPsen's Apple bashing demonstrates how efficiently Apple use their R&D budget !

Apple are what, a $700 billion dollar company and only have a $6 billion R&D budget ... less than 1% spent on R&D for both hardware and software.

Apple spend less on R&D than their competitors and yet have a significantly larger impact on technology and the quality of technology.

KBPsen
14th Mar 2015, 21:49
Mixture, I wasn't bashing Apple. I was providing factual numbers of unit and R&D costs. You (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/557950-apple-watch-3.html#post8900560) yourself had argued that the price of Apple products was related to the manufacturing and R&D costs.

Comparing the R&D budget to stock market value really is comparing apple and oranges. Comparing it to revenue is what a smart person does. Investment vs return.

mixture
14th Mar 2015, 22:16
Comparing the R&D budget to stock market value really is comparing apple and oranges. Comparing it to revenue is what a smart person does. Investment vs return.

Given the primary goal of a company is to promote and protect the interests of its shareholders, that point is somewhat moot. :cool:

KBPsen
14th Mar 2015, 22:23
that point is somewhat moot.You brought it up., but OK.

mixture
14th Mar 2015, 22:31
You brought it up., but OK.

Although if you want to look at a more stockmarket value....

Samsung Return on Invested Capital TTM 12%, Apple 29%.

I still maintain my point that R&D cost plays a role in Apple manufacturing costs. As well as R&D, there's also maintenance, someone's got to write software code ! :cool:

KBPsen
14th Mar 2015, 22:51
Samsung Return on Invested Capital TTM 12%, Apple 29%.That was my point.

I still maintain my point that R&D cost plays a role in Apple manufacturing costs.As it does for any manufacturer.

I provided some factual numbers. You don't have to like them, but they are what they are. Factual.

mixture
14th Mar 2015, 23:06
I don't mind factual numbers in the slightest. Infact they are one of my favorite things ... hard facts.

But if you're presenting financial numbers, then you have to look at it from a business point of view. And if you look at Apple's numbers from a shareholder's point of view, its hard to see it as anything other than a well run business. That's before you consider non-financial aspects such as the quality of products produced by such a small R&D budget.

Wish I'd had a few thousand to spare back in late 90's / early 00's to buy a few Apple shares.... :cool:

KBPsen
14th Mar 2015, 23:33
a well run business.I've never said anything to the contrary.

I've posted some factual manufacturing costs versus retail prices versus R&D costs. As you've (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/557950-apple-watch-4.html#post8902028) shown, Apple is able to charge a premium above manufacturing and R&D costs compared to other manufacturers. You called it Apple bashing when I said the same previously.

Radix
15th Mar 2015, 14:17
..........

ElectroVlasic
15th Mar 2015, 15:18
Just bought a Samsung Note 4 and am really enjoying it. That being said, I'm reading the Samsung Galaxy 6 no longer has a replaceable battery nor a Micro SD slot. To me that shows they are walking the path of vendor lock-in, and perhaps my next purchase will be from the Apple family since there seems to be less and less difference between them and the others.

I too have no interest in a high-tech watch, for all of the reasons given earlier. I found it strange that someone said they liked it because they could look at messages during a meeting. I guess that means the meetings must not be very important or very well run.

However I applaud Apple and others for moving forward with them. There's lots of things that don't make sense early on but now make lots of sense. For instance I owned an early Palm Pilot. In essence it was a smart phone without the phone, because the technology of the time did not allow for both to be integrated into one device. That early effort fell well short of the mark as does the early smart watches, but who knows how useful they might become in the future?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
15th Mar 2015, 16:18
That being said, I'm reading the Samsung Galaxy 6 no longer has a replaceable battery nor a Micro SD slot. To me that shows they are walking the path of vendor lock-in

That's not vendor lock-in, as you can buy Android devices from sources other than Samsung. And they are not offering features that only work on a Samsung device, like Apple do with Apple devices (such as Facetime).

mixture
15th Mar 2015, 16:55
Don't listen to the stupid Apple bashers moaning about FaceTime not being available on non-Apple devices.

I've covered the topic already before in sufficient depth to refute the bashers' nonsense claims.

Here is a copy paste from a previous post on the matter:

I explained this quite clearly in the aforementioned post.

It was Apple's intention from day one to make it an open standard, as demonstrated in the previously referenced video.

A lawsuit from one of those "patent trolls" turned up two months after the launch of FaceTime.

Apple had to deal with the lawsuit, and in the process, in order to minimise the financial impact they had to urgently re-engineer a major part of the FaceTime design with a quick-fix.

Part of the aforementioned lawsuit is still ongoing, and is no doubt a key part of the reason why Apple's original idea of pushing for an open standard has been put on the back burner. The other part of the reason is no doubt that the re-engineering was a quick fix and they really want to get back to the more ideal engineering solution they had in the first place.

ElectroVlasic
15th Mar 2015, 17:13
Rightly or wrongly, the smart phone market is largely viewed as a Samsung/Apple duopoly, even if it's a fact that one can get Androids from other vendors.

Had one HTC android and it had disappointing build quality. Half of its touchscreen sensors died about two months before my 2 year contract ran out. Something like that really leaves a negative impression, and recent HTC models I've tried have not been impressive.

My main point is that it seems to me that Apple and Samsung are converging on features and price points so there really isn't much to chose between them.

To me the Android market is becoming a de-facto Samsung market with large amounts of lock-in now and presumably more in the future. I just made a decision to go with Note 4 for the next two years but I can see myself going a different direction two years from now.

KBPsen
15th Mar 2015, 17:26
Radix, I don't know where you get your numbers from, but this report (http://www.cnet.com/news/galaxy-s5-costs-around-256-to-build-says-teardown-report/)suggests that, at launch, the Galaxy S5 cost $256 to manufacture and retailed for $600.

So it cost more to make and sold for less.

Radix
16th Mar 2015, 09:27
..........

Shaggy Sheep Driver
16th Mar 2015, 10:11
In the same way that every PC isn't made by IBM (who first developed it) Apple hardware should be open too; just like the world of PCs, in fact. It's the lock-in to one vendor that's dangerous for the consumer.

That point is a little moot as there is a wonderful Skype app available for Apple devices (and other devices).

If it's that wonderful why don't Applers use it?

In reality, Applers are always 'Facetiming' each other, which means their mates get Apples as well so they can join in. That's classic closed-system marketing by Apple.

Moot point it's not!

KBPsen
16th Mar 2015, 10:34
that is beside the pointI have no idea what point it is you are trying to make. The link you provided just confirmed everything I've said.

Keef
16th Mar 2015, 10:38
In reality, Applers are always 'Facetiming' each other, which means their mates get Apples as well so they can join in. That's classic closed-system marketing by Apple.

Moot point it's not!

Eh? It's not "closed system", it's "choice" and "quality of software".

My daughter in Germany and I both have iPads, and use FaceTime to talk to each other. It works significantly better than Skype on the same devices (we've tried).

My wife doesn't have an iThing. She uses her Nexus to chat with daughter via Skype (as she does with various other friends). The sound quality on Skype isn't as good, and the video is poor, but it works. She's happy and doesn't want an iPad.

The Skype performance is the same between her Nexus and other non-Apple devices, so it's not a fiendish plot by Apple to distort Skype.

While there are undoubtedly some aficionados who swear by Apple kit and have to have the latest model, there are many (most people I know, in fact) who use whatever they have.

What I have noticed is that Apple is the "must have" for teenagers in the cities and suburbia. I see them on the trains and in the street when I go to London. That's clever marketing by Apple. I wish I'd bought shares when I was thinking about it.

Lancelot37
16th Mar 2015, 10:38
Is it true that the new Apple Watch tells the time?

Radix
16th Mar 2015, 11:22
..........

Shaggy Sheep Driver
16th Mar 2015, 15:34
Eh? It's not "closed system", it's "choice" and "quality of software".

That's the argument that used to be used by IBM, DEC etc back in the days of closed systems in corporate computing, and it's a powerful one. The manufacturer will argue that an application written to exploit particular features of the hardware will be more efficient (and therefore perform better) than application written to operate on multiple underlying platforms.

However it's still an argument for single-vendor (i.e. closed) systems, and ignores the bigger picture. In much the same way that Applers enjoy the seamless environment of an all-Apple system without considering the wider issues of being dependent on a single vendor and getting 'locked in' as Dec, IBM etc used to 'lock in' and rip off corporate customers decades ago.

VP959
16th Mar 2015, 17:25
I still think there will be a general reaction against wearing this on your wrist. Watches are effectively redundant, and I stopped wearing one a year or so ago now, simply because it was redundant.

I have to say life is a lot easier without something round your wrist, and a lot more comfortable. I can't honestly see me ever going back to wearing a watch regularly again, which is a shame, as following the exploits of Loose Rivets in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/529110-pilots-watches-well-surprise.html I spent ages restoring my old Seiko 7A28 1120, which now sits unused, but looking pristine again.

Would I wear something the size of the Apple Watch? Not a hope, I'd be bound to break it within the first few days of it being on my wrist.

What I'd like to see is something that's the size of a small phone, but with a screen that opens out, or other wise magically appears to be around the size of a medium to large size tablet, iPad or whatever. That for me WOULD be a gadget worth getting. Smart phones are OK, but I find a bigger screen a lot more usable (probably an age thing) and carrying around something that large is a nuisance.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
16th Mar 2015, 19:41
I asked this before but it wasn't answered. If you don't wear a watch and you need a quick time check, instead of a quick hands-free wrist-flick don't you have to dig out your phone to look at the time on it (and in my case get out your reading glasses too so you can see the figures)?

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Mar 2015, 19:52
I still think there will be a general reaction against wearing this on your wrist.
What if you want to know the time?

I'm quite often sitting in front of a monitor attached to a real computer, and flicking my eyes down to the bottom right of the screen is pretty silmilar to flicking my eyes down to my left wrist.

But when I'm not sitting at a desk in front of a monitor?

Pelikal
16th Mar 2015, 20:03
Lancelot37. Nope. It can't tell the time.

VP959
16th Mar 2015, 20:05
If I'm not in front of a monitor to check the time, then I'm probably in the kitchen (a least three time displays), the living room (clock on the mantel, plus one on the TV box), the bedroom (alarm clock by bed), the car (clock on dash plus one on the GPS/radio screen), on my bike (with a clock n the cycle computer) or out and about, where if I can't see a clock somewhere I may have to pull out my phone and check.

In practice I can almost always tell the time without needing to pull out my phone, even if it's just a rough idea by whatever programme happens to be on radio 4.

ExXB
16th Mar 2015, 21:08
Gee, why don't we start a thread to talk about the new arm-resident device coming from Apple?

Oh, someone did that and it turned into a I hate/love/use/don't use Apple thread.

Yes we know that you hate/love/use/don't use Apple Products but could we please stay on topic? :ugh:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
16th Mar 2015, 21:25
I thought it was 'Apple Watch' as in 'Spring watch' or 'Traffic watch'.

I.e keeping an eye on what Apple are up to.

Only later did I realise it was about a watch one might wear on one's wrist (big watch, small... :eek: ).

Pelikal
16th Mar 2015, 21:32
Diverts interest from that fine chap Jeremy Clarkson, doesn't it?

Turbine D
16th Mar 2015, 22:27
SSD,

Reference to Skype

If it's that wonderful why don't Applers use it?

As I am typing, I am looking at the Skype App on My iMac on the Dock, right next to the Microsoft Excel App. We do use it with those who do not have FaceTime.

As a matter of interest to all, including me, how is it you are such an expert in "Fashion", i.e., Apple products when you don't own any? Take some time and look around and see what "closed product" you own. Start with your car, if you bought it new from the showroom, assuming you have a car. :E

Radix
17th Mar 2015, 13:34
..........

dazdaz1
17th Mar 2015, 15:37
All this bla bla bla concerning Apple. It's the equivalent of Nike, it's trendy, it's sexy, it's showing other people your hip and in the groove.

A fashion/tech inter breeding for posers who want to make a visible statement to impress.

KenV
17th Mar 2015, 16:42
A fashion/tech inter breeding for posers who want to make a visible statement to impress.

Hmmmm. "Visible statement"? "posers?"

I keep my iPhone in my pocket. It's not visible to anyone there.
I keep my iMac on my desk at home. It's not visible to anyone other than I and my family there.

poser: a person who acts in an affected manner in order to impress others.

I use those devices daily, and quite productively. I don't give a rip who is "impressed" or "disimpresseed" with my use of very effective tools.

As for the "closed" system argument, that's pure hog wash dependent on a twisted definition of the term "closed system". My Apple products interoperate wonderfully with the software from countless other vendors including competitors and with the hardware from countless other vendors including competitors. My iPhone even works wonderfully well with my car which has Synch made by Microsoft, while my colleague's Windows phone, also a Microsoft product, barely functions when it does not fail altogether.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
17th Mar 2015, 17:13
There's no doubt a big part of Apple's marketing uses the concept of their devices being fashion statements. They are de rigueur in arty farty places like meja and the colouring-in departments of most corporates.

MG23
17th Mar 2015, 17:35
All this bla bla bla concerning Apple. It's the equivalent of Nike, it's trendy, it's sexy, it's showing other people your hip and in the groove.

That and because they're generally better than the alternatives.

And I say that as someone who has four Android devices. The iPad interface is much smoother despite less powerful hardware, it has better security--none of this 'Happy Hamster Screen Saver wants to access everything on your device and make calls to premium numbers, accept or don't install' garbage--and a better market for paid apps that I'd actually want to buy.

No idea why I'd want a watch that I have to recharge twice a day, though. Recharging the phones and tablets is enough of a pain.

KenV
17th Mar 2015, 17:58
There's no doubt a big part of Apple's marketing uses the concept of their devices being fashion statements. They are de rigueur in arty farty places like meja and the colouring-in departments of most corporates.


There's even less doubt that tens and maybe hundreds of millions of Apple product users don't give a rip about "their devices being fashion statements" and don't give a rip about their choice of tools showing up in "arty farty places". To suggest otherwise, as has been done repeatedly here, is disengenous if not downright dishonest.

rgbrock1
17th Mar 2015, 18:02
I, and my family, own a plethora of Apple products. And not one of us do so with an eye toward being artsy fartsy. Fact of the matter is, Apple products are made better than comparable products from other vendors - much better truth be told. Apple products are much more intuitive than other products, Apple products are much more reliable than other products and Apple products are much better engineered than others. For those reasons, and a few others, do I own Apple products. And not to make any sort of silly statement. And as far as being a fashion statement? I couldn't give a rat's ass about fashion statements of any kind.

Ancient Observer
17th Mar 2015, 18:10
I acquired a new smartphone a couple of months ago.

Somewhere in the instructions it told me I can make phone calls with it.

Unbelievable.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
17th Mar 2015, 21:18
To suggest otherwise, as has been done repeatedly here, is disengenous if not downright dishonest.

Who did? Not me!

ORAC
17th Mar 2015, 21:28
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" William Shakespeare

Shaggy Sheep Driver
17th Mar 2015, 22:06
I, and my family, own a plethora of Apple products. And not one of us do so with an eye toward being artsy fartsy. Fact of the matter is, Apple products are made better than comparable products from other vendors - much better truth be told. Apple products are much more intuitive than other products, Apple products are much more reliable than other products and Apple products are much better engineered than others. For those reasons, and a few others, do I own Apple products.

Exactly. And that's the problem!

superq7
17th Mar 2015, 23:45
Oh dear, I get the feeling someone on this thread isn't particularly enamoured with Apple products.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
18th Mar 2015, 15:38
superq7, are you another one who doesn't read the posts? Who sees what they expect rather than what's actually been written?

Where has anyone said that Apple products are not very good at what they do? They are very good at what they do, which is how their strategy works!

I think you missed the point about single-vendor lock in, by a country mile. You are not alone!

MG23
18th Mar 2015, 16:23
I think you missed the point about single-vendor lock in, by a country mile. You are not alone!

But everyone is trying to do that. In fact, just about everyone has been trying to do that for as long as I remember in the IT business; there was just a brief period when companies realized they made more money by growing the market through open standards than trying to lock in a section of that market.

It's not like Microsoft and Google aren't trying to lock you in, though at least Google lets companies set up competing app stores.

dazdaz1
18th Mar 2015, 16:29
Well posted Shaggy #117 I still stand by my #106 post. Posers sheep following sheep. the lot of them.

I predict this.... Entering a night club, the doorman enquires "what make of mobile do you have sir/madam" reply "I have a iphone" that's ok please enter.

The reason being, people with other phones :hmm: would instantly be classified as non persona grater due to their life style/work, pertaining to working class.

Be a snob, buy a Granny Smiths.

OFSO
18th Mar 2015, 16:44
Those of us who buy non-Apple or Mac products tend to be those who within 24 hours of getting the device home whip out a screwdriver and start moddding it, or rooting it, or loading wierd and wonderful Apps. or suchlike. Yes, I must confess, even my new Chromebook has lost its virginity.

The Apple and Mac users tend to be, well users and if one suggests one could improve their device by fiddling with it, it's akin to heresy of the deepest order.

This was demonstrated to me yesterday. A dear friend with a seven-year old fruity computer told me it was getting very slow. I suggested she take the side panel off and vacuum it out. Horrors ! It was as if I had suggested violating the BVM. Then, answering her remark of perhaps too many junk files clogging up the Granny Smith works, I suggested downloading a cleaner and running it.

Pained look, followed by "I think I'll take it back to the Apple store".

I have not heard from her since and I suspect she hasn't got her fruity computer back yet.

Whereas you and I would have our PC's disassembled on the living room carpet, cleaned, back together and CC'd in an hour or so.

Back to the Apple Watch. Like the equally-idiotic Google Glass thingey, what I wonder is why none of these people are working on a surgically-implantable PDA (see Scalzi's "Old Man's War"), because if such a thing were possible I'd have one fitted tomorrow.

superq7
18th Mar 2015, 16:51
Until the iPad came on the market I'd never used a computer ever, now I use the iPad all the time and it's brilliant, I have subscriptions for Flight magazine, the Times and Autosport, mines got 3g so I can use it on holiday abroad imo it's a brilliant device, as for it being a "closed system" I couldn't care less.

Oh and as for being a poser/sheep Baa.

Edit, the last paragraph was said in jest.

dazdaz1
18th Mar 2015, 16:59
Proves my point.

OFSO
18th Mar 2015, 17:02
I have subscriptions for Flight magazine, the Times and Autosport,

What, no Guardian ?

superq7
18th Mar 2015, 17:03
Daz,

Not all people are a whizz on computers or have the desire to be.

dazdaz1
18th Mar 2015, 17:09
superg7.... I understand what you mean.

Daz

superq7
18th Mar 2015, 18:41
daz

👍 👍 Stuart.

Radix
28th Mar 2015, 02:05
..........

Turbine D
11th Apr 2015, 01:11
After the Apple watch (may not be available in all Apple stores) ;)

http://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:4fb153c58d835edacee289ebcecd1230&type=mp4&from=timeline&isappinstalled=0

ORAC
11th Apr 2015, 03:36
All models sold out online within 30 mins of going on sale. As of 2 hours later earliest availability of cheaper versions is June; availability of $17K gold version is now August and rapidly extending :uhoh::uhoh:

superq7
11th Apr 2015, 13:12
I cant see the point especially as you need to have an iPhone in your pocket to be able to use it, it seems a bit geeky to me, I'm waiting for iPad pro to come out if it's a big upgrade on the iPad Air I'll go for that.

Radix
17th Apr 2015, 22:35
..........

rgbrock1
20th Apr 2015, 12:25
superq7 wrote:

I'm waiting for iPad pro to come out if it's a big upgrade on the iPad Air I'll go for that.

The iPad Pro is out already. It's called the MacBook. It's really an iPad - with all the exact same internals - with a larger screen and a keyboard stuck on!

superq7
20th Apr 2015, 12:55
Already got one RG, way too complicated for me, I only bought it to "back up" my iPad, then they bought out the Cloud so never use it now.

rgbrock1
20th Apr 2015, 13:02
superq:

No, the new MacBook. The one announced back in February I believe it was. Or do you have the new one? If so, and you don't use it, would you like my address? :}:}

ORAC
20th Apr 2015, 13:44
No, the new MacBook. The one announced back in February

KHZ8ek-6ccc

mixture
20th Apr 2015, 15:39
ORAC,

Old joke, already posted here, was crap the first time and no better now. :ugh:

superq7
20th Apr 2015, 22:52
RG, my mistake I've got an Apple Mac laptop about four years old, but that new lightweight MacBook looks the biz, might raid the piggy bank !

Nige321
21st Apr 2015, 08:15
I've been involved for some time in the development of UAV GCS systems, running on both iOS and Android.

The 'walled garden' thing is a total myth, Google are just as controlling (more in some ways) than Apple. Yes, Android devices can be modified and rooted. So can an Apple device, just jailbreak it.

Apple sell a lot of kit - It's got nothing to do with 'fashion' or any other silly moniker - it's because a lot of people can see the difference between price and value.

Apple devices are 'underspecced' - yes they are, simply because the OS is so efficient, they don't need the horsepower to run the bloated and badly written Android. Some HTC and Sony products are good, but nothing comes close to the integrated way iOS works with Apple's hardware. Google (!) the A series 64 bit hardware, Swift and Metal. If you can't see where Apple is going with all this, then please don't comment.

Apple have always stated their aim is to make top quality products and make money. With Google you are the product, your data is what they want.

I'll go back to struggling with Android development...:uhoh:

mixture
21st Apr 2015, 10:11
Thank you Nige321 ! :D

Google are an advertising company. They don't "want" your data, they "need" your data. Without your data, the Google business model is kaput.

Google are continuously ramping up their vacuuming of your personal information from all possible sources, their latest ploy being getting advertisers to release customer email addresses to Google so that they can use that as an additional way to target ads.

Why do you think Google ask you for a secondary email address when you sign up to Google services such as Gmail, YouTube and Google Maps ?

The more Google know about you and your personal preferences (e.g what apps you have on your Android), the more valuable you are to them because they can get more money off the advertisers.

One Outsider
21st Apr 2015, 10:55
The usual Google bashing by the usual Apple fanboys.

Nige321
21st Apr 2015, 11:12
The usual Google bashing by the usual Apple fanboys.

The usual Apple bashing by the usual fAndroids...:D

Please state where I 'bashed' Google...

Google have no product, other than their users data. And they didn't create Android, they bought it.

Apple have products, and while they too harvest user data, the vast majority is anonymous.

Google want your life's data - Apple want the money out your wallet.

What could be clearer.
Both have pros and cons.
The choice is yours...

G-CPTN
21st Apr 2015, 11:42
Reasonable?

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full

Radix
21st Apr 2015, 11:53
..........

Nige321
21st Apr 2015, 12:57
Back to the Watch.

It will initially sell in big numbers, but sustaining that will be down to the Apps that arrive....

superq7
27th May 2015, 16:01
oo-er look at this.


iPhone bug lets anyone crash your phone with a text message | Technology | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/27/iphone-crash-bug-text-imessage-ios)

ExXB
27th May 2015, 19:25
oo-er did you miss this bit The bug requires a very specific string of text to be sent within an iMessage or SMS. In attempting to confirm the bug the Guardian went through 50 variations of the text string before replicating the crash.

But it will be fixed ...

superq7
27th May 2015, 22:21
oo-er did you miss this bit

Quite easy for teenagers, but as you say, it will be fixed.