A350 rumour [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

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anotherbusdriver

10th Mar 2015, 08:35

Allegedly CAD has decided to deny permission to CX for A330/ A350 MFF.

If this is the case, I am thinking that the timing is spectacular.

SloppyJoe

10th Mar 2015, 08:50

If that's the case, bravo to the CAD. Just looking at the cockpit should be enough for a sensible person to know it's not a good idea. Look at the systems and even a not so sensible person would start to doubt the idea. Good news for the more senior guys on the Airbus as at least it will mean no CGK/ICN/SIN night returns or any other of the many lovely patterns they currently enjoy.

Despot75

10th Mar 2015, 08:55

Good rumour! However, it's total BS.....
Call CAD and ask the question.

LongTimeInCX

10th Mar 2015, 09:01

The last time I heard one of our managers discussing the issue was only recently, and his view was quite definative.
Whilst it was mentioned there had been a 'degree of misunderstanding' by someone in the CAD, and this may have been due to a doors issue, CX were still believing it would be able to plan for crew to operate both 330 and 350 as a common type.

If this recent news above has superseded the previous doors issue, then that certainly throws a substantial spanner in the works with regard to future 'bus crewing levels.

swh

10th Mar 2015, 09:08

Its a common type rating on the type certificate, for both cabin crew and pilots.

c. Pilot Type Rating: The licence endorsement for the A350-900 series aircraft is "A330/A350". The A350-900 and the A330 series aircraft are variants of the same type of aircraft.

http://easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/EASA_TCDS_A_151_Issue-01.pdf

Frogman1484

10th Mar 2015, 09:55

I believe that the CAD. Has rejected their application for a A330/340/350 common type.

The A340 can be CCQ with the A330/350.

If the FAA and the Europeans give the A350/330 common type I doubt very much that the CAD will reject it.

CCA

10th Mar 2015, 10:12

I wouldn't give the HK CAD any credit, they are civil servants who barely have a clue about aviation and that's being generous. Any loss of face moments would be immediately met with CANNOT :ugh:

Simply put they are out of touch with aviation and barely function as a regulator.

betpump5

10th Mar 2015, 13:52

. Simply put they are out of touch with aviation and barely function as a regulator.

We still talking about HKCAD or CX Management?:}

Loopdeloop

10th Mar 2015, 14:45

The CAD will come into line with whatever CX want, as they always do.

anotherbusdriver

12th Mar 2015, 16:31

That's great news for the bus drivers stuck here, demoralized, whilst out of seniority upgrades are being done onto the 777. Some light at the end of the tunnel, if we all will get a chance to fly it.

It would be even better if the fleet office would keep updates coming, and be transparent with why command fleet type switches have suddenly stopped.

So, do we have to wait until the first jet arrives and is entered onto the HK register until approvals are written into the manuals?

Life kind of sucks right now. Snookered. No way out.

boocs

7th Jul 2015, 09:32

As Qantas decides on 787s, the A350s come over horizon | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2015/07/07/as-qantas-decides-on-787s-the-a350s-come-over-horizon/)

b.

mr did

7th Jul 2015, 09:44

I had heard they had the CCQ in the bag but were sweating on MFF. CCQ is a short differences course so you can change types. MFF is the ability to fly the two types at the same time.

No MFF would introduce a a very big spanner to the works...

asianeagle

7th Jul 2015, 10:20

so let me understand this correctly....

CAD is pretty much a box ticking exercise when it comes to approving FTL's, dispensations and various other bits and bobs that CX need from time to time.

Do you really think they are now all of a sudden going to put there foot down and say no to CX's request for MFF / CCQ or whatever you want to call it, considering EASA have already approved it to other operators across 3 types???

There is big money involved here, of course CX will get it right, to believe otherwise would be naive!
Its just another aeroplane, how hard can it be?

Algol

7th Jul 2015, 13:41

EASA don't mandate Base Training on type.
The CAD do.
Even for new recruits with thousands of hours on type.

happy ending

7th Jul 2015, 14:57

Maybe with that idiot Mike Davis gone now, sense will prevail

SloppyJoe

7th Jul 2015, 15:38

Who cares!!!!

It will be 3 crew long haul with **** patterns. You will get to sit for hour upon boring hour, trying to stay awake in it.

Who f:mad:ng cares?

Yonosoy Marinero

7th Jul 2015, 15:47

The ones who care are those that will have to safely operate two essentially different airplanes, thereby increasing their responsibility, workload and overall burden, all the while working increasingly fatiguing rosters, thanks to airlines and manufacturers pressuring regulators to allow them to do so for the sake of 'competitivity'.

Or, to paraphrase an illustrious contributor: 'To my bonus' ®...

boocs

1st Apr 2016, 13:16

Cathay Pacific's new A350 raises questions | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2016/03/27/will-cathay-pacific-pack-its-new-a350s-as-tightly-as-its-777s/)

b.

Hopeless CAD

1st Apr 2016, 13:33

Maybe with that idiot Mike Davis gone now, sense will prevail

Or maybe with that idiot DG Lo will soon leave CAD, pragmatic sense will further prevail, but then once the polka DDG Li becoming DG, stupidity will be back.

qld330

1st Apr 2016, 13:39

Do Qatar, Vietnam, Finnair, TAM and soon to be Lufthansa operate the 330/350 as a single type does anybody know?

AQIS Boigu

1st Apr 2016, 14:29

Do Qatar, Vietnam, Finnair, TAM and soon to be Lufthansa operate the 330/350 as a single type does anybody know?

Atm only CX operates under MFF

betpump5

1st Apr 2016, 14:32

Well Cathay did invent aviation.

April fools!!

cxorcist

2nd Apr 2016, 20:22

Why be safe when you can be efficient?

iceman50

3rd Apr 2016, 03:48

PPDSept15

Three words Bol**cks.

airplaneridesrfun

3rd Apr 2016, 04:34

Time for the union to write the regulatory agencies of those countries we plan on operating the 350 to and discuss the merits of MFF, and the way the CX go about it. I'm pretty sure the said agencies would barf, and then ban CX from flying to or over their jurisdiction.

Dragon Pacific

3rd Apr 2016, 04:42

Many voices saying that MFF is not right for these types but no one sticking their neck out to say that we shouldn't even be considering it until we've had experience of operating the A350.
Safety is our first priority?
Our Safety Culture is declining in an atmosphere of intimidation and industrial unrest. We've seen what results in others' recent accidents.
Not good enough to be hoping for the best if running an airline.

Pontius

3rd Apr 2016, 05:01

It seems to me, with no Airbus experience whatsoever, that the Airbus family have more commonality than most Boeings. The 777 and 787 are really quite different machines, including some differences that are vastly different (air systems being an obvious one) but they are flown on one type rating. Why is it possible to fly the 777/787 but not the 330/350, when Airbus, as I understand it, has gone to a lot of effort to ensure commonality of logic etc in their machines?

ACMS

3rd Apr 2016, 05:49

Who actually flies 777's and 787's at the same time day in day out?

Bobermo

3rd Apr 2016, 05:52

KLM for example

OK4Wire

3rd Apr 2016, 07:34

I actually think that a common type rating is more about how the two aircraft handle, rather than about the layout of the flight instruments.

In this case the 330 and "A50" apparently have extremely similar handling characteristics, hence the CTR. I'm not saying it's right, it's just how it is.

JPJP

3rd Apr 2016, 21:50

I'm rated on both the 330 and the 350. They are 2 completely different beasts, and it is crazy that the CAD (or any other regulatory body), would allow MFF.

I can understand perhaps a mixed roster... 3 months on one, 3 months on another...etc.
But total MMF is crazy, and everyone in the TTS/sims are saying the same thing.
Exactly. Delta will operate their 330 and 350 fleet separately. The FAA said that they were welcome to operate them as one fleet, with certain restrictions on currency. The restrictions on currency (90 day) were so onerous that Delta binned the idea and will operate them separately.

swh

4th Apr 2016, 00:49

JPJP

4th Apr 2016, 05:21

Flying the A330 and A350 by the same crew is known as single fleet flying (SFF), the two aircraft share the same type rating. Flying the A330/A340 is mixed fleet flying (MFF) as the aircraft have different type ratings.

CX will not be the only airline doing SFF with the A350, this presentation by Finnair outlines their training footprint for SFF with the A330/A350. It is almost identical to what CX is doing.

http://halldale.com/files/halldale/attachments/Tommi%20Vanska.pdf

Finnair also plans to MFF the A320/A350 in the future, at the moment however with the few aircraft in the fleet the A350 is flown as an independent fleet. Regulators in Europe, USA, Hong Kong, Singapore, Brazil, and Vietnam have given the green light for A350 SFF.

The main difference with the CX approach and other airlines is the A330 procedures and checklists had been progressively changed over the past year to align with the A350.

ACMS the middle east airline that is not allowed to be mentioned on Pprune is flying the 777/787 as a single fleet. They have however decided to revert the 787 procedures to 777 (ie going backwards) which has resulting in some interesting incompatibilities.

Mmmmm ...... indeed. No holes in the Swiss cheese to be found here. I wonder if the notably safety minded Vietnamese, Chinese (Hong Kong) etc, etc. authorities will bow to commercial pressure ? Let's throw some cheap Second Officers into the mix and really spice things up. Pun intended.

I think your last paragraph regarding the 'unmentionables', and their attempts at 777/787 SFF - is a prescient peek into the next episode of Air Disasters, and the future of commercial aviation.

Wonder what will happen with A320/A350 MFF ? That certainly sounds like an effort to put safety before efficiency :rolleyes:

mrfox

4th Apr 2016, 06:34

Mmmmm ...... indeed. No holes in the Swiss cheese to be found here. I wonder if the notably safety minded Vietnamese, Chinese (Hong Kong) etc, etc. authorities will bow to commercial pressure ? Let's throw some cheap Second Officers into the mix and really spice things up. Pun intended.

I think your last paragraph regarding the 'unmentionables', and their attempts at 777/787 SFF - is a prescient peek into the next episode of Air Disasters, and the future of commercial aviation.

Wonder what will happen with A320/A350 MFF ? That certainly sounds like an effort to put safety before efficiency :rolleyes:
The same way the notably safety minded American FAA allowed MFF with the MD10 and 11 I suppose.

http://avherald.com/img/fedex_md11_n526fe_narita_090323_2.jpg

JPJP

4th Apr 2016, 19:48

The same way the notably safety minded American FAA allowed MFF with the MD10 and 11 I suppose.

http://avherald.com/img/fedex_md11_n526fe_narita_090323_2.jpg
I completely agree with you. I'm not holding the FAA up as a shining example of safety before profit. They were nicknamed The Tombstone Agency for a reason.

Regarding MFF or SFF - United Airlines has been told that they will now be required to maintain pilot currency across 'display types' in their 767-300, 767-400 and 757 category. They operate as one category for pilots, and previously required no special currency requirements between aircraft.

betpump5

5th Apr 2016, 13:41

Good post. And this is why we have regulatory authorities across the world.

Sadly we all know that HKCAD is on the CX payroll.

Whether it be an SO mucking up a TCAS RA, a Captain falling asleep on Finals due to fatigue, or a mistake being made due to the 'differences' between an A330/350, CAD is just waiting for a Hull Loss.

Until that sad event occurs, CAD will remain on the payroll. THEN you will see changes.

White None

5th Apr 2016, 17:46

Take your point but
Whether it be an SO mucking up a TCAS RA, a Captain falling asleep on Finals due to fatigue

didn't happen like that and it needs to stop being said as if it did.

missingblade

6th Apr 2016, 01:22

Honestly I think there's too much grinding of teeth here regarding flying both. And from the old guys who struggle to learn new tricks mostly from what I've seen in the sim building.....and maybe they're also the senior ones who stand to gain the most from separating the 330/350 fleets....?!? Just saying....

I had absolutely no problems with the 350 differences course. In my opinion if you're an experienced Airbus pilot you will manage fine flying both. The basic flight management is identical. The 350 just has some xtra functions and systems - nothing that's gonna make you lose control. Technically - systems wise - it's a different beast altogether yes - but seriously - since flight engineers left the flight deck and all that stuff was automated I honestly feel that we have so little control over the systems that it makes no difference. So to sum up. It operates the same. Underlying stuff may be different - and you Have to study a bit more to keep up with that but I don't really see huge safety implications operationally.

Furthermore the 350 has INCREDIBLE redundancy. Safest jet I've ever seen the way it's designed.

White None

6th Apr 2016, 01:50

I'm affronted! I'm an old guy who's just taken up juggling firesticks!

I think what you mean is that some people confuse being in CC as an opportunity to not be ar$ed rising to a challenge, (takes cover, but has firesticks!)

Remember those "hell yeah I can do it" days guys? Yeah it would be safer if we all just drove one type of padded car on a track but aren't we all experienced Cathay pilots? (Aaaah...... Hmmmm..... not all of us, remember those days guys?). Maybe we should just have an elite who can fly both types, could we have offices please?

Quite pleased with that unconnected rant, now where's my matches?

airplaneridesrfun

6th Apr 2016, 02:08

missingblade

Watch out for that iceberg that you are steaming straight ahead for.

What happens when a captain converts to the airbus for the first time, and has to fly both types?

iceman50

6th Apr 2016, 08:11

airplaneridesrfun

The captain will have to fly the A330 for a year before getting near the A350.

PPSept15

I suggest you go into the office and ask to remain on the A330 you obviously don't think you are up to the task. It will take a positive mindset and professional approach or are you just trying to get the A350 only with all the whining?

What about the differences between the -8 and the 400

Kitsune

9th Apr 2016, 17:06

Iceman, in the words of the holy St. Jezza... you would appear to be a bit of a 'gentleman's sausage' if not an actual 'ladygarden'...

Pogie

16th Apr 2016, 09:58

The real question is... when are the A50s showing up? Anyone? Ivan?

ron burgandy

16th Apr 2016, 20:18

Who's Ivan?

betpump5

16th Apr 2016, 22:57

Ivan Who

.

qld330

17th Apr 2016, 01:19

Ivan the hide and go seek champion of 2015 & 2016

Shep69

17th Apr 2016, 01:35

No, Hoo's on first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

Kinda fits the goings-on. Only their version is actually funny.

Not to worry--they've brought in a few advisors from the past to help out. Wonder how THAT'll Go....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Jg7pvVzKk

I just hope there actually IS a "Jerry Seinfeld" somewhere and (for a change) he'll actually be listened to and they'll sort the whole thing out.