Four lessons on circuits and I'm still doing bad...

[CX163]

Hi all,

I'd memorized all the stuffs but theories went behind when I got up there.
Had flown almost 100 ft above, too fast and drifting everywhere :(

Any suggestions to improve my performance? It's really frustrating :(

Thanks in advance.

[Uplinker]

You don't say whether you are flying a C152 or A380, but I'm guessing nearer the former?

Four lessons is not all that many, it takes a long time to learn to fly - about 45 flying hours to master a PPL.

The circuit is the basis of a lot of flying. It might seem to be taking a long time, but lots of more complicated stuff leads on from circuits.

Try walking the circuit. Actually walk around your garden or a field in the pattern of the circuit imagining you are flying. At each point of the imaginary circuit: what speed are you looking for, what altitude are you looking for, what checks are you doing, what configuration are you altering, what attitude are you setting, what engine settings are you making, what radio calls are you making, what will you need to do next, etc., etc.

Good luck !

[RAT 5]

Much will depend on your type. Please do tell.

But:..... basic flying technique, if it's a jet. A circuit is a visual manoeuvre yet you still need to pay close attention to the instruments. Tiny changes in attitude can have large changes in V/S and are not easy to detect looking at the horizon.

1.Know the power/pitch settings. Set the datums and make delicate adjustments +/- those datums.
2.TRIM. TRIM. TRIM. Ensure you are in perfect pitch trim, then hold the control column very lightly; finger & thumb.
3. Check the power setting is sensible.
4. Consider what phase of flight you are in. Check if the 'performance' numbers are correct: Start with attitude. Is it sensible for what I want to do? Confirm the performance via IVSI. If it's good leave it, if not adjust it....gently. Reset the attitude, trim and remember it. Look outside. Check IAS; adjust thrust as necessary. Look outside. Check Track/HDG. Same applies. Know what is the priority and check the relevant instrument for the phase of flight.
5. On approach start with Attitude; check Glide slope, check IVSI. Adjust as necessary (gently) and ensure correct trim. Check Speed and Power. Adjust as necessary.
6. Don't focus on one item too long; your eyes are outside - inside at one parameter - outside - inside at one parameter - outside..................
7. Be aware/clear what is controlling V/S and what is speed. In some phases it is Pitch & Power (level flight & approach) in Climb it is Power & Pitch (jets).
8. RELAX. ENJOY. Circuits are fun.

[PA28181]

It's bit like when I took up the guitar over 50 years ago, I had Bert Weedons "Play in a Day" book, I'm still learning.

Four circuit sessions and still not got it right I'd give up......:) wait till you get to incipient spin recovery.....

By the time you have got a licence you will have forgotten how many times you have bashed the circuit, you will do more circuits than any other exercise I'd warrant, and still need to do them with 500 hours in your logbook...

[rarelyathome]

RAT.

The OP has had 4 lessons on circuits. Do share where somebody posting on a Private Flying forum is likely to be ab initio on jets :ugh:

OP. It does take time. Know the datums and then try to relax and follow your instructor's advice. If it's not coming together, ask your instructor to go back to basics and perhaps follow a demonstration through again. Four circuit lessons isn't that many and the variations in the weather are likely to make you less accurate until you learn to anticipate/react as a second nature.

good luck.

[ChickenHouse]

Hm, 4 lessons on circuits with how many landings?

When I read the post I took my log and looked it up - at the end of my 4th circuit lesson I had a total of 25 landings&T/G's ... when I passed my practical exam, I had 248. So don't worry and relax, it just takes time.

[9 lives]

After more than 15,000 landings, I was still learning new things about how to land better. I'm well beyond that now, and I think I'm getting it! Give it time....

Have a read through the other recent thread on landing on this forum, lots of wisdom there.

[Pace]

CX

Firstly like the others say its early days :ok:
Firstly free up your mind i.e. be sure you know the pattern you are flying. don't use mental capacity because you are not sure where you are or where you are going.

Relax you hands, so many new pilots are tense and grip the controls as if they are hanging on for dear life.
it should be finger tip stuff

Make sure you have the power set for a slow cruise in the circuit with everything put away

look outside as well as your instrumentation some are glued to the panel

Make sure and this is very important that the aircraft is properly trimmed so its not climbing or descending! properly trimmed it should fly hands off maintaining altitude with very little input from you.

if its does drift off altitude don't be frightened to put it back where it should be with an I am the boss and in control movement!

hEADING take an object on the ground ahead on the line you are flying so you can visually navigate to that line offsetting the drift

But above all be smooth and relaxed and in command of the aircraft

Pace

[Cognoscenti]

You haven't mentioned the frequency of your flying. Do you fly often or is there a large gap between lessons? Most students flying circuits for the first time experience sensory overload, get highly stressed and some end up feeling very disappointed (even though they have perfectly memorised the circuit brief). This is an opportunity to go away, think about the lesson and organise your thoughts. Subsequent lessons always improve with familiarity. They improve drastically if you can fly multiple days each week (if not everyday). Repetition, repetition, repetition.

Students that leave 3 or 4 weeks between each lesson seldom improve on the previous flight.

@RAT5 lol - funny

[Jan Olieslagers]

If you're over 75 or so, learning becomes slower, that's only to be expected. Most things come slower with age, yet offer all the more satisfaction.

(or, if you're NOT over 75, you could have told us)

[foxmoth]

One big tip - learn to level off properly, I see so many people who do not do this then spend half the circuit fiddling with sorting speed and height. If you can climb and then start downwind at the right height, speed and properly trimmed you will then find you have the time for everything else!

[Big Pistons Forever]

As an experienced instructor I have frequently been brought in to help students struggling in the circuit. Every single time the problem was the fact that the foundation flying skills were not there, usually because the instructor had rushed through critical ex 5 to 9 manoeuvres and then progressed to the circuit too quickly.

To fly a proper circuit you have to be able to fly a balanced climb at a constant and correct airspeed, make a balanced climbing turn, level out and set the cruise attitude and trim and then manage a level turn a descending turn and a final approach with the aircraft pitch attitude set and held to maintain the target speed and with aircraft in balance and trimmed. If you are still struggling with this then you should not, IMO, be in the circuit

Before going to the circuit I always start by having the student fly some practice circuits in the practice area. The airport is set at 2000 ft AGL and circuit height is 3000 ft. The students starts at 2000 ft establishes a climb, turns 90 deg at 2500 ft turns again at 3000 for the "downwind" sets cruise power does the checks etc then turns on to a base leg starts the descent, turns to final and at 2200 performs a go around. He/she doesn't have to worry about finding the runway following traffic etc, they do concentrate on aircraft control.

The OP might suggest this to his instructor

[150 Driver]

Having read several threads on similar subjects recently it seems to me that learning to fly is like losing your virginity.

You've read the books, surfed the web, (ahem) maybe watched a video or two, been told what to do and it seems that 'everyone else' has done it/is doing it without any problems.

Now you're in the circuit (for which read out on the pull), all tense, fumbling around and it just doesn't happen. To make matters worse, you have a chaperone watching your every move from the right hand seat.

The answer is perseverance and practice. One day it all just clicks and you have the rest of your life to enjoy it.

Seriously though, unless you are a true Sky God four lessons in the circuit are a small fraction of the ones you're going to need. I'm sure we all felt the same at this stage.

Good luck

[fujii]

There are currently three similar threads running along the same lines, ccts and landings. The simple truth is you will get it when you get it. No amount of posts here will make any difference to your own circumstances. If you are trying to remember what you read here whilst flying the cct rather than listening to what your skilled instructor is teaching, you'll only take longer. If you want to upset your instructor, try beginning a sentence with "I read on the Internet..." Hundreds of thousands have preceded you without the internet.

[Blantoon]

Excellent post fujii, was about to say the exact same thing, as I am tempted to do every time someone posts on here asking for help. They get 10 different responses all saying different things, although in this one RAT 5's really takes the biscuit! :D Helpful as he/she was trying to be I cannot think what was going through their head when they wrote all that out!

Don't take any advice you read on an internet forum (except this bit ;)). Listen to your instructor.

[piperboy84]

1. Listen to your instructor
2. Keep the ball centered and the plane trimmed
3. Dont overthink the task
4 In the relationship between you and the plane "you are the boss, and it is the hoss" . If it ain't at TPA put it to TPA
5.Listen to your instructor more !!

[skyhighfallguy]

Hi

Start worrying when you have a total of 30 hours of instruction. Don't rush things, flying is expensive and you are wondering where the money is going

There is some wisdom in what Big Pistons has mentioned.

I mentioned in another thread the use in the USA of ground reference maneuvers including rectangular patterns, turns around a point, and s turns along a road.

And perhaps you are just destined to take more time to learn than others.

Someone mentioned walking a circuit (pattern in the USA), you might try drawing the pattern by memory on a piece of paper with pencil (do you know what a pencil is?)

So, it takes time, MONEY, dedication from you to IMAGINE it on the ground.

And you might consider another instructor if you are not learning.

Again, some people have soloed in 4 hours, others 40. You will probably be somewhere in between.

[Cows getting bigger]

Four lessons? I've been doing it for four decades and still get it wrong. :)

[Andy_P]

FWIW, I am a bit past the circuit stage, but when I was doing it I would study the handout every night. After each lesson I would go home and review what I did wrong, and why. I still do this now when I do practice circuits.

However, the day comes, when it all just clicks, and you will wonder why you found it so hard! Thats the day it starts becoming a motor skill and you are doing things, and reacting to situations without thinking about it! This is why I spend so much time memorising stuff away from the plane, so next time I dont have to think about it.

BTW, for me it took a bit longer than a younger student. You did not mention age, but a 40 year old will take longer than a 20 year old. Also, the more frequently you fly the less revision you do each lesson and the faster you pick it up.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Have patience. It will 'click' and all will be well. Every pilot on here has, I'd bet, been where you are now.

[thing]

You'll know it's clicked when you do a landing in filthy weather, xwind on limits, taxi in and someone says 'How was the landing?' and you say with all honesty 'Er, can't remember, think it was OK, is the kettle on?'

[chillindan]

OP - I'm a relatively new PPL and talking of circuits, I'm off to do some shortly myself. You will always need to keep practising circuits even once you have your license. It is where there is the most going on, the highest workload, the most aircraft in the vicinity, oh and the ground is close as well.

I always feel much better and sharper after I've done an hour in the circuit, so when I passed my GST I told myself I will do circuits at least every couple of months to keep on top of my skills and practise something that you only do once in a navigational a to b flight, i.e. landing.

It will come, believe me, I had some terrible circuit sessions when I started as there is so much to do, but the trick is to try and stay ahead of the aeroplane. Always be thinking what am I going to be doing next so that you are not in a rush.

On top of it all, enjoy learning. Its a great journey and only the start..

Happy flying.

[Pilot DAR]

You will always need to keep practising circuits even once you have your license.

Very much yes.

I flew a half hour of circuits yesterday, including two forced approaches, just to keep fresh.

[ChickenHouse]

"One more thing" after I had some nice training session with a low timer today: it helps if you fly take off and landing separate in mind - divide the circuit flying into two or four definite distinct parts -> do a mentally focussed (A) callout "We start" -> take off - climb - level (B) callout "We cruise" -> cruise configuration (C) callout "We land" -> preparation, base, let down, land (D) callout "We landed" -> roll or T/G. Callouts sound crazy and it felt kind of weird, but it helped (you can do it in a very distinguished way, but our "chakka-chakka-We" callouts were as efficient and much! more fun - don't ask what comment we got from tower when the PPT was pushed during chakka though ... ;-) ...), so why not do it?

When we started today, the student was already mentally at landing prep when in the middle of climb, which hindered him from doing it all correct. After we did take/offs and landings mentally separate - at first assisted by one or two 360 in downwind to switch brain and yes, after clearance from laughing tower (sing your radio call will now be glued to my name) - he figured it out.

[rnzoli]

Any suggestions to improve my performance? It's really frustrating
After I went through my frustrating periods, I learnt that actually quite many student pilots face a similar frustration during their training. The advice "keep at it" can make it even more frustrating!

I suggest that you talk openly about your frustration with your instructor. You can also talk to other instructiors to hear their opinions.
When someone's progress slows down or stalls, they need more than just a greath bunch of advice. They must conciously analyze ("troubleshoot") the problem to correct it for good (unlearn the bad things and learn the good ones), with the help of the CFI sitting next to you.

I feel that drifting all over the place is a sign of overcontrolling the airplane, but nobody else can identify the reasons better than the instructor sitting next to you.

[Martin_123]

I'm a student myself but I have no problem with circuits so I thought I'm "eligible" to offer some advice here myself.

First things first - talk to your instructor about your feelings at all times. He/She has to know what's going on in your head and offer some advice

Second - does your school offer a flight sim? Initially I was sceptical myself, but honestly nothing helps better than an instructor who pauses the sim just when you screw up, to explain what went wrong and what you can do to improve. Its not possible on a real life environment

and lastly - get yourself a pair of Saitek Yoke, pedals, definitely trim wheel and other stuff, connect them with FSX and fly one of those A2A cessnas or pipers, they're really good. I've come across the opinion that students with gaps don't progress many times, dear I say, if you have yourself a sim in your bed-room, it's all rubbish, and this setup, expensive as it may be, will keep you current when the weather outside is bad or the wallet is wearing thin

I agree to what fuji and Big Pistons Forever said, but on their note, can I just add - your landing starts in downwind! It's just when you pass that runway in 45 deg angle, when you need to have your first set of flaps out, speed stable at whatever it is your plane requires, this is when you have time and space to build a foundation to a successful landing.. anything after that is just catching up and filling gaps of things you didn't do on downwind

[Mach Jump]

To fly a proper circuit you have to be able to fly a balanced climb at a constant and correct airspeed, make a balanced climbing turn, level out and set the cruise attitude and trim and then manage a level turn a descending turn and a final approach with the aircraft pitch attitude set and held to maintain the target speed and with aircraft in balance and trimmed. If you are still struggling with this then you should not, IMO, be in the circuit

Although BPF and I have had our differences in the past, I find we are in total agreement here. People are giving advice on how to land, but it seems that the OP is struggling to fly the circuit pattern with any accuracy.

CX163: How may hours training have you had in total?


MJ:ok:

[Pace]

I agree to what fuji and Big Pistons Forever said, but on their note, can I just add - your landing starts in downwind! It's just when you pass that runway in 45 deg angle, when you need to have your first set of flaps out, speed stable at whatever it is your plane requires, this is when you have time and space to build a foundation to a successful landing.. anything after that is just catching up and filling gaps of things you didn't do on downwind

Why when your in a 45 deg angle downwind? What happens if you fly a complete curved approach right to touchdown? or fly a straight in or a teardrop to come back into landing. the aircraft should be stabilised but when it becomes stabilised is in the hands of the pilot! What happens if you decide to land flapless? and don't have your first stage of flap in ? You can't do a good landing ???

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

Why when your in a 45 deg angle downwind? What happens if you fly a complete curved approach right to touchdown? or fly a straight in or a teardrop to come back into landing. the aircraft should be stabilised but when it becomes stabilised is in the hands of the pilot! What happens if you decide to land flapless? and don't have your first stage of flap in ? You can't do a good landing ???

Pace

I have to ask did you actually read the original post? :hmm:

The OP has just four flights in the circuit. Flying training starts with perfecting the basics. When the basics are mastered those skills are then stretched to achieve higher skills.

If you as an instructor are teaching a curved approach to a landing on the first circuit lessons you are doing it wrong.

Ab initio training is different from any other flight training and if you have never done any, than at the risk of being rude, I have to say you have no clue.

[India Four Two]

Ab initio training is different from any other flight training and if you have never done any, than at the risk of being rude, I have to say you have no clue.

Hear, hear! :D

[Pace]

BPF

OK My post came across wrong and probably reiterated a long discussion in the longer but similar thread ( why is landing the bloody plane so hard )which developed into a discussion which shot off in many different tangents from the OP of that threads question.

Yes of course you are right in this context that the OP needs to get the circuit clear in his head and the different points in the circuit to be configured too many threads on similar subjects ((
If you read my earlier posts to him they were designed at helping a very low time student. This last post was not appropriate to him.

Pace

[Martin_123]

pace, just to clarify, I was talking about this angle:

http://www.ppl-flight-training.com/images/45degdown.gif

I'm not saying that that's the only way to do it, just saying what others have already said about getting the basics mastered first, before moving on to other stuff

[fireflybob]

Suggested reading on how we learn is "Head Strong" by Tony Buzan.

He poses the question "What is the underlying goal of all 'Try Alls' ("attempts")?".

He asked this question to thousands of college/university students over the years and 99% will answer something like "To improve or get better".

But the 1% will answer "to learn something".

So then he asks who do you think is correct? Are you going to go with the 99% majority or be a maverick and go with the 1%?

He argues (quite correctly in my opinion) that the 1% are correct and the 99% are setting themselves up for failure.

To get the full picture you need to read the book but the goal is to learn something new with each attempt. If you expect to improve every time then you are probably going to be disappointed and become more and more discouraged.

Very often our biggest learning experiences are when things don't go according to the way we expect. But this needs proper teaching and reflective thought afterwards.

It helps if you have a really good instructor but there are stages when you are learning something (especially like landing an a/c) where you have to just keep at it and, as Churchill once remarked, keep b*******g on!

Good luck and keep at it!

[9 lives]

He poses the question "What is the underlying goal of all 'Try Alls' ("attempts")?".

He asked this question to thousands of college/university students over the years and 99% will answer something like "To improve or get better".

But the 1% will answer "to learn something".

What a worthy concept to consider! Upon some thought, I am in the 1%. Although, I of course would like to get better, some of the flying I have done very certainly was not intended to get better, but rather to learn something. Often that something is what the plane will do, but was better off not doing.

So, yes, focus on what you can learn from each attempt, and the getting better will happen on its own...

[Maoraigh1]

It helps if you have a really good instructor

The cheapest and quickest solution is a good instructor - who can first see what you are doing wrong, then give instructions which lead to you doing it right.
After solo, my landings deteriorated. The assistant instructor didn't waste time - he chopped the lesson, and passed me on to an instructor who solved the problem in 20 minutes dual. (I just checked the old logbook).

Tony Busan? Isn't he the "Mind Map" guru? Just write down the circuit and landing details, circle with the correct box shape, and join with the correct colour lines.
I was forced (payed by the taxpayer) to attend a day course run by a disciple of Busan. Stand in group circles, and make figure of eight movements on the back of the person in front. Listen to a record of "My Sweet Lord", with arms folded. and it was suggested we should sway from side to side in time with it. As well as learning to draw mind maps.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A bit off topic but Maoraigh reminds me of Charter I did years ago. It was to fly a guy in the floatplane to a little island for a weekend of company sponsored " team building" . The guy was young, scary smart and doing something very lucrative in the investment banking field. I dropped him off Friday afternoon with instructions for a Sunday evening pickup. He called early Saturday afternoon and asked for a pickup ASAP.

When I arrived I delicately asked if everything was alright. He said he was fine but he was damned if he was putting up with one more minute of B*ull**** and Brown Rice !

When we got back he took me out for beers and chicken wings until the company jet showed up to take him back.

[fireflybob]

Tony Busan? Isn't he the "Mind Map" guru? Just write down the circuit and landing details, circle with the correct box shape, and join with the correct colour lines.
I was forced (payed by the taxpayer) to attend a day course run by a disciple of Busan. Stand in group circles, and make figure of eight movements on the back of the person in front. Listen to a record of "My Sweet Lord", with arms folded. and it was suggested we should sway from side to side in time with it. As well as learning to draw mind maps.

Maoraigh1, his name is Buzan, with a "z".

He did invent the concept of Mind Maps but am sure he wouldn't be involved in the sort of smoke and mirror stuff you describe.

He has written some excellent books on how the brain learns.

Tony Buzan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXJDJ8rqjLY)