Open Skies Report - EK/QR/EY - Interesting Read

[sheiken around]

Click on the link below for more info...



(http://www.openandfairskies.com/)


Partnership for Open and Fair Skies (http://www.openandfairskies.com/)

[Calmcavok]

The three carriers’ routes to the U.S. have not meaningfully increased passenger traffic; they only serve to displace U.S. airline market share and shift good U.S. aviation jobs overseas. In fact, every lost international roundtrip route by U.S. carriers because of this subsidized competition equals a net loss of more than 800 U.S. jobs.

I'm not an apologist for the ME3, but the above argument is absurd! The 3 US carriers have no meaningful routes in competition with the ME3. At best it can be construed that they're out to protect their European/Asian codeshare partners, and their routes to those connections. Chapter 11 did a fair amount of damage to European airlines post 9/11 - the Ch.11 issue has been convienintly ignored.

[LHR Rain]

The U.S. carriers don't compete on routes because the simple fact is they can't compete. The labour costs alone will stop any legacy carrier from going head to head with the middle east airlines.

[JuniorMan]

Lower labor costs, lower to no taxes, zero interest financing, state-of-the-art facilities built and paid for by the government. The US3 have absolutely no chance. Anyone considering leaving EK for a career at the US3 should think twice.

[ExXB]

I didn't see it mentioned but don't EK/EY/QR take advantage of US EXIM bank financing, something that US (and EU) airlines are forbidden to do?

So the US government and US taxpayer are also subsidising these airlines. While the motivation may be to help Boeing (As in B vs. A), it's another subsidy.

[uba737]

Actually, the EU Airlines from France, Spain, UK and Germany are not allowed to get the loans, all other countries in the EU are.

[Iver]

This is a hilarious argument from the US carriers and their Euro partners. They are clearly running scared.

Two questions to consider showing examples of connecting-traffic hypocracy:

1. What proportion of KLM passengers are actual O&D passengers to/from AMS? Not a lot as quite a few are connecting to places outside of the Netherlands.

2. Do the big 3 US carriers turn down connecting traffic in Atlanta/Chicago/Dallas for passengers flying between Asia and Latin America? No.

[paokara]

Let's see what happens boys and girls lets see

[QCM]

US economy is also fed when ME3 buy large amounts of Boeings...

[swh]

I didn't see it mentioned but don't EK/EY/QR take advantage of US EXIM bank financing, something that US (and EU) airlines are forbidden to do?

All of the US carriers are getting export financing on the regional jets from Brazil and Canada, nothing stopping them from getting export financing for Airbus aircraft or RR engines.

US carriers cannot get EX-IM finance, as being a domestic airline, it is not being exported.

[Schnowzer]

Last desperate act of the Chapter 11 three. Can't compete due crap product, have stolen money from their employees and dumped costs to the PBGC so have a whine to the government. Let's bring back BOAC, Pan Am and props!

Interesting article:

Court approves termination of United Airlines pension plans - World Socialist Web Site (http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/05/unit-m13.html)


In a devastating blow to 122,000 workers and retirees, a federal bankruptcy judge ruled May 11 that United Airlines may default on its pension obligations and turn over control of its pension funds to a federal agency that is already swamped by corporate pension defaults. Judge Eugene Wedoff approved the airline management’s request to terminate four pension plans—for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and other ground service workers. The $9.8 billion pension plan default is the largest in US history.

The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation will take over the plans, but federal regulations limit the amount of pension payments it can make to a maximum of about $45,000 a year. The highest paid UAL workers, such as pilots, will face pension cuts of up to 50 percent, while lower-paid workers could lose as much as 20 percent. The pilots face a Catch 22: under one federal law, they are not allowed to work after age 60; under another, the proportion of their pension guaranteed by the PBGC is sharply reduced if they retire “early,” i.e., before age 65.

The actual amount the PBGC will underwrite is likely to be even less than the $45,000 maximum, since the agency’s resources will be exhausted within a few years by a tidal wave of corporate pension fund defaults. The initial round of defaults, notably in the steel and airline industries, has already put the agency $23 billion in deficit; the United default will add another $6.6 billion in pension liabilities to the PBGC’s balance sheet. United will give the agency $1.5 billion in notes and company stock to partially offset the pension liabilities, but these securities will be worthless in the event the airline is forced into liquidation.

The difference between the $9.8 billion United owes and the $6.6 billion obligation assumed by the PBGC is $3.2 billion. This staggering sum, owed to present and future retirees under the terms of their contracts, is simply wiped out. It is the equivalent of robbing each and every pilot, flight attendant and mechanic of $267,000—although for some younger United workers, especially pilots, the individual loss will be far greater.


That covers 10 of the 40 Billion, what makes these 3 so special that Open Skies doesn't apply!

Airline bankruptcies in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_bankruptcies_in_the_United_States)

Emirates brand:

http://newsavia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Emirates-friso-hospedeitas-cA380-900pxi.jpg

Versus - Get your own peanuts!!

[go46ball]

I see 7 VAGINA's pictured above! :ok:

[Schnowzer]

Such a sad comment:ok:

[nolimitholdem]

That image is more how EK tries to PORTRAY the brand. It does not remotely resemble the reality of the "brand". Any more than the glib "get your own peanuts" line can describe all US carriers. The EK service has slipped a great deal, and fast - it's no secret, and no surprise, given the rapidly deteriorating working conditions. At the same the legacy carriers have been forced to up their game. No, they'll probably never get to the same level of "service", what with all those pesky labour laws and legal rights of their staff.

We get it, you have a hate on for the US carriers. Why? Who cares. But when I see marketing propaganda like you posted, I think more about the reality of crew pushed to the absolute limit and beyond. A link to the story of the poor soul who recently took her own life in al Nadha would be more appropriate than smiley shiny girls.

Fortunately the word is getting out about the truth of EK as a company and employer. All empires eventually crumble.

[Schnowzer]

We get it, you have a hate on for the US carriers. Why? Who cares.

Nothing could be further from the truth!

This thread is about unfair competition and subsidies. The Big 3 US carriers struggled due to the ridiculous attitude of some of the Unions. They had been unable to compete at home and shedding jobs to the feeder carrier network has led directly to the race to the bottom in the US. But the Big 3 US carriers claiming the moral high ground is ridiculous when they have benefitted by transferring debt and pensions to the government and claim they were not subsidised. At the drop of the hat they fire (sorry furlough) employees to save cash.

I agree that the ME3 do get some subsidies but lumping Qatar and Emirates together is ludicrous. Qatar is the richest nation in the world and buys everything including passenger traffic to support Qatar Airways. Emirates financially supports Dubai.

If we want to see the root cause, just maybe it lies here:


Rick Dubinsky, longtime head of the AirLine Pilots Association at United, made this clear when he and Goodwin began a recent wage negotiation. ''We don't want to kill the golden goose,'' Dubinsky told Goodwin. ''We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg.''



All of that said, USA Inc must be onto a massive winner based on the 500 Plus Boeings being procured.

[paokara]

Those 6 flight attendants quit already please update your picture

Germany France and Canada said no more routes
USA will do the same


Boeing statement?

You can convert the 777 s to military equipment that you will need to protect yourselves from ISIS


PS don't worry you will have enough attrition that you will have the chance to INTERVIEW for a command upgrade, just try to pass the drilling if not? No problem more direct entry command positions will be created

[Metro man]

Possibly Qatar and the UAE looked at US agriculture to learn about subsidies, cheap labour, protected markets and favourable government regulation.

It's perfectly alright when other countries can't compete against United States farmers but not acceptable when U.S. airlines can't compete against a better and cheaper competitor.

[cerbus]

Are there any farmers in the UAE? If so I haven't seen any farms much less any cows, pigs, or chickens.

[donpizmeov]

Where does your milk come from Cerbus? I think Metro was thinking more global than just the UAE.

[Schnowzer]

Hidden in plain site it's like Area 51.

Next time you are downwind 30R in the daytime you are flying over about 10,000 cows. They have little sun-shelters in Al Kwahneej. It surprised the crap out of me when I got lost coming back free Nav from Sharjah and ended up at the Al Rawabi farm.

Loads of chickens too, 50,000 tons or so and a hell of a lot of eggs (had to google that one). Most of the farms are indoor, you see them all over the place, even the reservoirs that supply them are covered, that ultra low building on the 30 approach is a reservoir.

Now pigs......ok you got me on that one but I hear the subsidies offered by the Government are amazing!

[anson harris]

Some sausages in the "dirty foreigners only" section of Waitrose are produced in the UAE. It's not really surprising in the UAE - Pounds over Principles! I'm told that if the floor of the pig farm isn't touching the precious sand of the UAE then the angry sky fairy can't see it and all is well.

I do wonder, moving back to aviation, if the airlines of the civilised parts of the world got together and agreed to spend a few hundred millions on pilot recruitment (even if they don't need them) they could shut down the ME3 overnight. Just do what the locals do and pay ex-ME pilots to not even turn up to work. Net result - no more EK/EY/QR.

[cerbus]

The milk here comes from milk powder.
Agree on the pilot recruitment. I can't understand why the Big 3 doesn't hire every Sand pilot away. That would probably be around $30,000 to replace each pilot but the more important question is can they even replace the pilots at this stage. Not too many pilots want to come to the sand anymore.

[Schnowzer]

Cerbus, you can even go and meet the cows

Fun at the Farm ? join us on our tour!: Al Rawabi Dairy (http://www.alrawabidairy.com/visit_farm)

As to the thread. The market will decide and my view is that bleating from the big 3 will go by the wayside as a casualty of the strategic partnership between the USA and UAE. The reality is there are bigger fish to fry!

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Ha ha looks like cerbus is talking bull cerhit again. (Powdered bull cerhit of course) :p

[Dropp the Pilot]

Meanwhile, back at the thread, those of you undistracted by the powdered milk horror might consider this:

This could actually work out quite well for EK. The rag says today that they are assembling a big team to go to the States and present their case as being a true airline business. I believe they will be able to do this because I believe they are indeed just such a thing.

Meanwhile, the Abu Dhabi and Doha circuses, which are patently self-aggrandising publicity stunts, merrily and randomly throwing excess capacity in every direction possible with no hope or intent of ever making a profit will look more than a little foolish.

It's all good.

[paokara]

Cerbus:



They don't hire them because they talked so much s--- about the Legacies over the last decade which left a bad taste to the HR people and their associate recruiting departments.


Now as far as experience PIC is more desirable than SIC on a widebody and that's a fact
They will seek a Turbo prop PIC before widebody cruising and sleeping 30 percent of their logbook hrs

[donpizmeov]

But they hire European refugees that worked in South America paokara?
I think the fellas here should do just fine.

[LLuke]

Here goes my point of view :}

Nobody claims that the ME3 shouldn't exist. But it became a oversubsidized industry with unlimited access to free financing resulting in a world dominance that was built with unfair competition.

There's is nothing unique about the ME3 that couldn't be copied by others. Their incredible annual results are simply a result of unfair competition.

...Apart from the fact that you have to be socially handicapped to enjoy life in the Middle East.

[cerbus]

Thanks for the correction on the cows. I am still ducking.
I flew with a food exporter from NZ a few years back and he mentioned that all of the milk was from milk powder and that made since since I never saw any farms around here. Things change I know.
The legacies are probably going about this subsidies arguement the wrong avenue. They should be saying that there is no government oversight here meaning the airlines can do whatever they want to its employees.
Unions are outlawed so everyone knows what that means.
Timmy is in DC now trying to temper the legacies momentum. He will probably win because at the end of the day companies might not like the trade practices but the U.S. government loves open trade.
There goes American jobs.

[paokara]

DonpeZmeov:



They sure do hire Europeans from SA not refuges though and here is why :because they know not to bash the Legacies


Enjoy it there I am sure you will be just fine.... Don

[halas]

The white paper brings up some interesting points.

For example, where does all that team sponsorship money come from for any of the ME3?
Thats a sh!t load of tickets you have to sell just to place your name on a football jersey (x10), stadium, tournament, track, event, course.........
Plus all the advertising that goes with it.
Then again maybe the lords of the three do supply the funds for such frivolities.

Another thing is the association of QR and AA through their Oneworld alliance.
Am sure the Qatari Baker is singing AA CEO's praises at the moment in the group meetings.

halas

(Also dairies have been in the UAE for over thirty years Cerbus...It's not new.)

[L1011]

Open Skies reminds me of a passage from Brothers Karamazov.

Says Fyodor Dostoyevsky “Above all, don’t lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others."

[Schnowzer]

For example, where does all that team sponsorship money come from

My profit share!

[paokara]

Germany now is revisiting the open skies with the 3
France and Spain is considering opening the can of warms


LH IBERIA KLM/AIRFRANCE finally are almost on Board with the 3 in the US

They are all reviewing the 50 so pages of allegations brought up by the 3 legacies in the US

[fliion]

Well if they think attrition is high now...

If this 'global legacy' response takes hold and is effective....watch out because most guys I know like to be at the front of the herd when it moves...and then maybe the fact that Karma hasn't visited here yet...will reliably Pay us a call...as it has since the beginning ..

f.

[Mr Mac]

All
Humble SLF but a regular Business class passenger with you on approx 8 - 10 sectors a month. Also lived in Mid East for a time in 1980,s so I do understand some of the issues you have with your ultimate employer, and to some extent the region. However I would take issue with anything said by American carriers about central govt, as what they need to improve to better the ME3, is to quit complaining, and do something with there service levels and their tired aircraft. Currently even though EK is not as good as it was with regards customer service, in say 2001, the levels of service and facilities far out strip those of the majority of A/C in the big 3 US carriers. Your cabin crews maybe tired, but they are still a mile better than those on US carriers re customer focus and service. It is still a good product as a customer, as compared with the opposition outside the Middle East.


Regards
Mr Mac

[fliion]

Thanks Mr Mac...on behalf of our tail gunners...

..be nice if they felt that sentiment from their leaders..."row, row, row..."

f.

[RoyalEnfield]

CNBC interview with TC.

Emirates airline doesn't get govt handouts: President (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102513021)

..."We are about to declare some of the best profits we have produced in the 30 year history of the airline".

[WYOMINGPILOT]

A Very Interesting read.

American, Delta and United – like their European brethren – lost this particular debate about 23 years ago. Now they have only two realistic options: find some way, or ways to compete effectively and profitably with the Gulf carriers, or withdraw from international markets where they can’t compete profitably against Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways.

In Debate Vs. Persian Gulf Carriers U.S.'s Big Three Airlines Can't Win - Even If They Win - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed/2015/03/18/in-debate-vs-persian-gulf-carriers-u-s-s-big-three-airlines-cant-win-even-if-they-win/)

[glofish]

concerning EK:

Our beloved leader is busy speaking to US lawmakers and the press, just as writing to his subjects about how unfair the campaign is and how much he wants to compete in the skies and not in parliaments.

Well, at the same time the US travel website Hopper.com published its survey of the 10 best results of food service in Economy. EK fell out of it! To be fair, and by no means surprised, no US airline made it either. But fierce competitors like Singapur, Cathay and Etihad did.

(1. Thai, 2. Turkish, 3. Asiana, 4. Etihad, 5. Cathay, 6. Singapur, 7. ANA, 8. Eva, 9. Garuda and 10 ........ Lufthansa!!)

It would bode well to up our service and food beyond direct competitors before going down the slippery path and brand others of lesser service.

Maybe the treatment of the personnel, on ground and in the skies, could prove a better start than boasting, pretending and writing?

[vfenext]

So true, pax don't choose based on price but on the economy food. Must be the caviar being off that caused the problem. :rolleyes:

[DCS99]

This debate will give the EK gang 1 extra week's profit share to prove the point to the septics.
It's Happy 30th in 6 months. A party with zero profit share? Unlikely.

[Dihedral1]

More interesting reading
Is there a hidden agenda in US airline war against Arabs? | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2015/03/19/is-there-a-hidden-agenda-in-us-airline-war-against-arabs/)

[WYOMINGPILOT]

I have to disagree with the author who is obviously Race baiting. The true story is loss of market share for the U.S. carriers and HUGE expansion plans by the Mid East 3 carriers. The US majors have lost their ability to compete due to numerous reasons. Stopping Open Skies will also not work. The only option is to get new 787/350 style aircraft and fly Direct as much as possible avoiding the Mideast transit. EK is here to stay but long term depressed oil prices may slow down EY and Qatar along with increasing labor problems. The U.S. majors may shrink into mostly domestic carriers as Ryan Air and Norwegian scavenge their N. Atlantic routes. Of course the long term Asian expansion may ultimately be the long term survivors.

[TangoUniform]

STC said in the CNBC interview that in a few weeks EK will announce the largest profits ever. I truly wonder how that will play out with regards to our profit share? It was 12 weeks a few years back. Interesting times, indeed