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onetrack
5th Mar 2015, 00:42
The media is reporting that Paul Allen (co-founder of Microsoft) has finally found the wreck of the Japanese battleship Mushashi in the Sibuyan Sea, off the Philippines.

U.S. Billionaire Paul Allen finds WW2 Japanese Battleship Musashi in Philippines sea/6281672 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-05/us-billionaire-says-japanese-ship-musashi-found-in-philippines/6281672)

The Mushashi was sunk in 1944 during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, after a concerted effort by U.S. Navy aerial forces.
She was the one of only two of the Yamato-class battleships - the biggest warships ever built by the Japanese during WW2.
She was 862 feet long overall, carried 2399 crew, was fitted with 18 inch guns, and grossed nearly 73,000 tonnes.

The specifications of the Mushashi are staggering. She was fitted with 4 turbines producing 150,000 shp, could do over 27 kts, and her waterline armour was 16 inches thick.
Her 9 x 18 inch guns could fire armour-piercing shells weighing nearly 1.5 tonnes to a distance of 42 kms. :eek:

Wikipedia - Japanese battleship Musashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Musashi)

Paul Allen is apparently ecstatic as regards the find, equating it to finding the WW2 warships equivalent of the Titanic. His search vessel, the M/Y Octopus, found the wreck in 1000 metres of water after a search lasting 8 years.

Now, all we have to do is convince Allen that he needs to find the wreckage of MH370 - because the chances of Fugro and the ATSB finding MH370, grow slimmer by the day.

AtomKraft
5th Mar 2015, 04:07
Sheesh!
If it took this guy 8 years, and he had a pretty good idea where to look- and the water was only 1000' feet deep, AND he was looking for a ginormous steel ship.......

I don't think anyone will find MH 370 before it corrodes into oxide.

fitliker
5th Mar 2015, 05:22
Miyamoto Musashi Born 1584 known mostly as Musashi was a Samurai.
His book "Go Rin No Sho " or The Book of Five Rings ,has weathered the centuries as one of the best martial arts books ever written.
I prefer the Harris translation to others that I have read as he does not get all woo woo with his straightforward literal translation that comes from a martial artist point of view and not someone planting a garden.

oldchina
5th Mar 2015, 06:21
Then I suppose he can spell Philippines

onetrack
6th Mar 2015, 01:21
Atomkraft - The depth where the Musashi is located is 1000 metres, not feet. Let's not have any NASA moments here ... :)

Fitliker - Interesting background to the name. Bit of a shame his namesake ship wasn't as successful at fighting as he was.
It boggles the mind to think of all that incredible construction effort only lasting just over two years after commissioning.

innuendo
6th Mar 2015, 01:48
Interesting background to the name. Bit of a shame his namesake ship wasn't as successful at fighting as he was.

Hmmm, depends whose side you were on I would think.:rolleyes:

Given your stated location perhaps it is just as well that it was not as successful.

onetrack
6th Mar 2015, 02:07
Innuendo - True. But however the position one views it from, the fact remains that the Musashi was an incredible effort in marine construction, in any nations terms - but it appears to have had no success in any battle it fought, despite being planned as the major item that would instill fear into, and crush the U.S. Navy.
If it had major successes in any battle, it would perhaps be held more in awe amongst the historians.
As it was, she went in search of U.S. forces numerous times, but never found them - no doubt due to the cracking of the Japanese Naval Code by the Allies.
When contact was made, it was by the U.S. forces, obviously on their more favourable terms.

Bushfiva
6th Mar 2015, 05:45
Fitliker, actually the Yamato class (and other classes) were named after ancient Japanese provinces: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano.


The lengths Japan went to to hide construction of the Musashi in Nagasaki makes fascinating reading: screens to hide welding flashes, blocking sightlines from buildings with foreign residents, etc.

innuendo
6th Mar 2015, 06:48
If it had major successes in any battle, it would perhaps be held more in awe amongst the historians.

I am not sure that those ships were not accorded the awe they deserved at the time, but as I suggested in my previous post it is a good job for many of us that they did not prevail.
Their fate probably illustrates that at the time, superiority on the oceans surface could be trumped from the air given sufficient air superiority.

The sinking of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales by Japanese air attack was such an example.

ExXB
6th Mar 2015, 09:36
Atomkraft - The depth where the Musashi is located is 1000 metres, not feet. Let's not have any NASA moments here ... :)
You don't mean like
She was 862 feet long overall, carried 2399 crew, was fitted with 18 inch guns, and grossed nearly 73,000 tonnes.

The specifications of the Mushashi are staggering. She was fitted with 4 turbines producing 150,000 shp, could do over 27 kts, and her waterline armour was 16 inches thick.
Her 9 x 18 inch guns could fire armour-piercing shells weighing nearly 1.5 tonnes to a distance of 42 kms.

Quite a melange of avoirdupois and metric. I'm fairly certain the Japanese didn't use avoirdupois before 1945.

onetrack
6th Mar 2015, 12:23
ExXB - Well, I was trying to be all-encompassing there, throwing in a mixture of metric and imperial measures, to accommodate our U.S. friends, who seem to have a great deal of trouble with metric measures. :)
I did "lift" the measurements from other sites such as Wikipedia, which is the main reason for the melange.

As to your supposition .. sorry ...

"On April 1, 1930, the (Japanese) Ministry of Railways adopted the metric system, replacing Imperial units, for the measuring of railways"

I believe Japan actually used historic, peculiarly Japanese measurement systems that went back several centuries, rather than strictly or officially imperial or metric, prior to about the 1930's.
I understand they had a mixture of measurements, because they imported major infrastructure items such as rolling stock, that was often built in imperial measurements if it came from British or British Commonwealth sources - or metric, if it came from Europe.

EDIT - O.K., I found the precise details of Japans historic measurement system.

It was called the Shaku-kan or Shakkan-ho system, and it remained in place as one of the three standard measurement systems of Japan until the metric system was officially adopted on 1st January 1959.
It appears the metric system was adopted for engineering purposes in Japan from 1924, but it was slow to progress through all levels of measurement in the country.

Japanese units of measurement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_units_of_measurement)

Japan's various measurement systems (http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/international.html#japan)

Yamagata ken
6th Mar 2015, 14:09
It's all metric here now. Except that BSF and BSW with metric heads are ubiquitous in the building industry, and common in legacy machinery. And BSP for plumbing. And houses measured for area by the tatami mat, approx 900x1800mm, enough room for a person to sleep. Apart from that, everything is strictly metric, sort of...

Ancient Mariner
6th Mar 2015, 15:05
Much like the Philippines then, every standard known to man, and then a few. All mixed together. DIY Heaven. :rolleyes:
Per

ExXB
6th Mar 2015, 17:46
Apologies, I assumed that Japan would not have used the 'imperial'system, except possibly during/following 1945. I assumed they would use their own measures, or, possibly the metric system.

fitliker
6th Mar 2015, 18:19
Ooops wrong again,but Musashi was one of their top Samurai.He led the first Victory against a European military by the Japanese in 163


Will the steel have the same scientific value as the pre-nuclear steel from the German ships scuttled in Scappa flow ?



Some of the Japanese Vickers built destroyers may have had Whitworth fittings and measurements on board.

Fubaar
6th Mar 2015, 22:45
I seem to remember reading somewhere that some Japanese machinery had nuts and bolts threaded in the opposite sense to the European/US standard 'clockwise in, counter-clockwise out'. I think it was something to do with the Mitsubshi Zero, (but could be wrong in that - memory's fading), and there was good reason for it, something to do with the rotation of the particular part. It caused some confusion when it was first encountered by the Allies on captured airframes.

I know this 'wrong way' thread was used by the Germans (and our side?) with fuse casing on bombs in an attempt to catch out bomb disposal teams, but that's not what I'm referring to here.

onetrack
7th Mar 2015, 01:46
Fitliker - The steel in the Mushashi probably has excellent purity properties for scientific purposes - but the depth of the wreck, and the fact it will be classified as a war grave will exclude it from use.
The steel in the Mushashi was probably sourced largely from scrap, as the embargo on iron ore supplies to Japan was well and truly hurting the Japanese by the late 1930's.
However, despite the often-sneering reference to items made from scrap-iron, the use of high levels of scrap iron in steel actually leads to a better-quality steel.
The reason being, that every time the iron is (re)refined, it actually increases its purity.

Fubaar - The only position I've known of left-hand threads, is on wheel hubs, to counter the rotation forces that can lead to wheelnuts coming undone.
However, it's not unreasonable to imagine that it could be applied to rotating aviation components, to ensure fastener security in operation.

meadowrun
7th Mar 2015, 03:26
For me, this ranks as a useless, quite pointless exercise made worse by the eight years spent at it, the money expended, the science used and the risks taken.


It's a lump of rusted enemy steel at the bottom of the water and no enlightenment is to be gained by finding it.


Do something useful next time.

onetrack
7th Mar 2015, 09:17
Meadowrun - IMO, I think your summary is somewhat harsh. There could very likely have been spin-off benefits in the Mushashi search, as regards improvements in underwater wreck-finding equipment and techniques, that could possibly benefit quite a number of us in the future.
I for one, would like to see more wrecks found, particularly those that shed more light on historical events.

I can understand Allens engineering fascination with the Mushashi, it really was a stupendous undertaking.
The problem being, it was all geared to major destruction, increased national domination, and the furthering of war aims.
I agree that the search money probably could have been better spent - but billionaires get to spend their money, the way they want.

ORAC
7th Mar 2015, 10:00
Having worked in a profession where orders were given in port and starboard; information in left and right; height in feet; visibility in metres; distances in nautical miles; fuel stored in cubic metres, loaded in tons or Lbs but dispensed in kilos or Litres; and cloud cover in oktas.... I'm not going point a finger at anyone else for mixing units......

Hydromet
7th Mar 2015, 10:10
It's all metric here now.And a good thing, too. It's a dozen times easier.

mmciau
8th Mar 2015, 11:33
onetrack,


Gas fittings are left-hand thread.

Yamagata ken
8th Mar 2015, 13:36
Not quite right. Flammable gas fittings are left hand thread. Non-flammable gas fittings are right hand thread. Not wanting to connect the oxygen to the acetylene, are we :)

You can recognise left hand thread nuts/bolts because there's a nick in the centre of the corner between the flats.

My deeply missed 105 series Alfas (divorce) all had left hand threads on the wheel studs on one side of the cars (can't remember which). I swapped them for right hand threads. None of the wheels fell off (the cars, not the marriage).