I'm thinking of ejecting. Any last hail Marys out there? [Archive]

Superpilot

2nd Mar 2015, 08:46

Been there but saw the light.

I was also very close to quitting this industry after just a year of landing my first paid job in 2012. I learnt to fly in my teens at the turn of the century and despite plans to go commercial in the early 2000s, I ended up in the technology industry as a contractor. I still take up the odd contract in between flying jobs till this day so never quite left the industry. In fact, I’m writing from the office PC right now. New flying position starts in a few months.

I also have a love/hate relationship with the tech industry. I love working with tech, I enjoy the diversity and the money is…(well, let’s just say it’s more than what a mid-level BA captain would clear at the end of the month), but honestly speaking, the industry is full of cowboys and wingers, particularly in management (and it's getting worse). If it’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s phonies and they are everywhere in IT (not just aviation :p). The IT environments’ of big companies are becoming hybrid pieces of junk that are incredibly difficult to support and develop as management continue to reduce cost by outsourcing to India where a monkey say, monkey-do attitude prevails and common sense is severely lacking. Added to that: The view is crap; I have to commute by train/tube daily and constantly have to take my work/thoughts home with me in preparation for the next day. That is no great life either I can assure you. As a result of the love/hate relationship, half the time the money is simply not worth the aggravation and I’ve frequently walked away from contracts before they expired just to get my sanity back.

When I landed my first commercial flying job, I was at the top of my game in my old industry and thus had to start off at the bottom of the pit. I was subjected to stupidity and inefficiencies the likes of which I didn’t think existed anywhere. How could the airline industry prosper with so much nonsense was my first thought. Everything from hiring practices through to training, the mind numbingly duplicative SOPs and receiving a pay check was a complete disaster. Where I flew, the skippers were mostly pyschos with zero personality and inability to comprehend that a 30 year old might actually know a thing or two about life despite being new to flying. I ran away from the place with no firm job offer from anyone else! It was at this point, I questioned all and found myself at a very low point in life. Luck changed, I then found a seasonal position which allowed me to fly in the summer and earn decent money doing what I used to do in the winter but there was never any guarantees of getting the right base. As such whenever I was away from home, I would be £1k out of pocket just to live in two places (family at home).

This year I believe I have finally found what appears to be the perfect job. It’s local, pay is above average for new FOs, perks are average to decent and it’s a perm contract from day one but with option to go part season. From what I’ve heard, I can expect around 650-700 hours per year and almost everyone is very happy to be there. Oh and working for a unionised company, never have done that! I am honestly looking forward to it all after all the hardship I’ve endured just to get a job in the land I call home! Sure, it has it’s down sides but everything in life does. You have to experience both sides to make the best decision. Of course, I cannot continue to be the same high rolling tech specialist I am when I’m not flying. However, I’ve just launched a new business idea that will enable me to keep a finger in the tech world pie, whilst making that little bit extra on the side of my permanent salary.

AtomKraft

2nd Mar 2015, 09:11

Sorry for my caustic comment earlier.

I'm a regional jet pilot, put up with all the :mad: and trauma that you describe, and put up with it for years. My ex colleagues are still putting up with it. I feel their pain.

But now, eesa happy time for me! And maybe it could be for you too.

Answer, simples. Leave the UK.

I now get paid 7500/ month. No tax.
I do the same work, but less of it. I'm treated like a minor celeb. Have a lovely young GF, and have never been happier. I dread my visits to the UK.

If you are unhappy with your lot, do something about it.

You can't always have what you want. But sometimes, you get what you need.:ok:

Biket

2nd Mar 2015, 09:29

I had a neighbor who was a cargo capt.

One day he pulled it, and bought a tip-top little flat in an old watermill transformed in 6 flats.

He lives in a wonderful valley, surrounded by a gentle river, in a touristic little town in the center of Europe, the owner pays him the basic salary of the country (1500€) and he is the manager of the lot.

Takes care of the bills, optimizes the oil consumption in winter in Excel, has a great family life.

Nobody (nearly) to report to.

What else should anyone need?

I didn't really understand him at that time. This was before I started my career in south east Asia.

Smokie

2nd Mar 2015, 11:52

Hear the Bang!
See em Fly.
Martin Baker rules the Sky...... :)

LS-4

2nd Mar 2015, 13:43

I might know of a decent company or two, but they're not hiring and might not do so for a while. How about instruction?

Have you considered any academic courses? You might find some possibilities in Scandinavia, if that's your turf.

I've heard stories of sick-of-the-job captains who got somewhat revitalised by some good old hands-on general aviation. I can really recommend gliders.

Best of luck.

macdo

2nd Mar 2015, 17:45

as I come to the end of 2 weeks leave, I truly wish I could pull the handle as I know by the end of next week I'll be as knackered as I was 2 weeks ago!
Sadly too old, too unskilled for another job, mouths to feed and bills to pay, so I'll dream on and quietly envy those that have the balls and skills to enable them out of what has become a 2nd rate job. Oh, and I'm one of the lucky ones as far as employer is concerned.

Kinell

3rd Mar 2015, 08:51

I gave up airline flying as a Captain in my thirties about fifteen years ago and I can honestly say that it was the best decision I ever made.

For the previous decade I was almost permanently tired, hassled and underpaid.

If I had my time again I certainly would not have put myself through all the stress and financial hardship that I suffered to gain my ATPL.

Initially I did miss the flying, however, that soon passed and now I would not return to professional flying under any circumstances.

Having followed the industry since I returned to my previous profession, I do feel sympathy for today's flightcrews.

Pucka

3rd Mar 2015, 09:10

Let me know if you find that new great job in the sky!!it ain't the sand pit for sure..Asia is trashed..and assuming you can breath without life support, you'll need a lung pump after 2 years..can I suggest Twin Otters in Vanuatu?..Atr in Tonga...Fly Africa?..corporate in Japan...may take your hand off that handle for a taste longer...

RAFAT

3rd Mar 2015, 13:02

Slight thread creep here but, the worryingly frequent comment throughout this thread is that most who are still flying commercially are all "tired" and "knackered"! Not good is it. :(

Enzo999

3rd Mar 2015, 13:17

I am in the same situation as macdo, I wish there was a way out but am too old and unskilled to find a job paying anything over minimum wage.

Good luck for the future I hope it all works out for you.

Dan Winterland

3rd Mar 2015, 13:27

One RAF Tristar captain retiring at 55 decided he couldn't be bothered to learn about why exhaust valves are filled with sodium and other such non-essential rubbish, so he became a bus driver for the local Oxford bus company.

He was very happy with his new career, and as he pointed out, it wasn't much different. Just a lot less miles and a lot less fatigue.

RAT 5

3rd Mar 2015, 13:56

I'd negotiate a part-time roster, or seasonal one. See how you feel then, both mentally & physically. 50% or 75% should be possible for any company. Indeed, is it not they case they have to show why they say No? Seasonal, with 75% in summer & 50% in winter might also work for you. It's not so all or nothing.
I empathise and spent my last 12 years at 50% the normal rate, but also I wasn't an employee. For those years it was very tolerable. The thought of full-time as an employee is not an option. That is both the disruptive working life-style and the common degrading work environment created by those at the top. Considering how far the technology has advanced and modernised it's a great mystery why the management style has reversed and now resembles that of middle ages 'Lord of the manor' with the forelock saluting peasants, or the mill owning robber barons of the 19th century. But we are not alone in this puddle of poo. Many industries now use 'zero hour contractors', much to the distaste of some UK MP's who spoke out about the practice. I note they didn't offer any solution or legislation, just condemnation. No doubt the share holding lobby would urge them to back off. All the EU labour employment legislation has not protected against such an explosion of abuse. One wonders just what they do all day long in the ivory towers of Brussels.

Desk-pilot

3rd Mar 2015, 14:47

I wish you well in your endeavours. Being an airline pilot was all I ever wanted to do from the age of 5, ended up in a well paid IT career and then decided to follow the dream in my early thirties. I was well paid and well rested in my old IT career and crucially I was off at the same time as my wife and child. I enjoyed my leisure time because I wasn't feeling completely exhausted after work and at weekends.

Eight years of regional/low cost aviation has been a variety of highs and lows - on a good day with an amiable colleague it's more enjoyable than my old IT life for sure, but the rosters are unbelievably fatiguing and it's my belief that the workload is detrimental to health, wellbeing, a family life and safety. I still don't earn what I earned as a lower level IT manager in 2002!!

Like many of you I'm tired of feeling knackered and feeling 'owned' by my employer, I am trying to go part time while also exploring quitting the rat race and starting a business - maybe a B&B or some kind of property investment/rental thing that means I can work at home, determine my own hours, be with my family e.g. when Daughter comes home from school, have time to exercise, read, relax - basically something that gives me a high quality of life in return for a modest income. As I work for a regional airline the money's not too hard to beat!!

If I knew then what I know now I'd have skipped the expenditure at Oxford and gone straight for the property investment and then taken a share in a Europa or something to toodle around in. Quite frankly I wouldn't miss the flying at all, the work life balance is appalling and the profession has gone down the tubes financially unlike IT, Consulting, medicine, law, accounting where you can still enjoy a very comfortable upper middle class lifestyle and stay in a country you want to live in.

RTO

3rd Mar 2015, 15:12

I want some kind of dignity. Management that keeps a promise, a salary that arrives on time, a roster that doesn't cause chronic fatigue and a sense om team work. Perhaps a flight deck where the discussion from briefing to shut down is not about worry over getting fired or rumours that the next salary will be cut in half.
Deep down you must realize that all this is unachievable. Pull the handle if you can.

RAT 5

3rd Mar 2015, 16:22

Everyone I've known, including myself, who have jumped ship, gone part-time, or lost their medical and been forced to leave, have all been amazed at what an increase in quality of life they've achieved. They founds other means and realised that, even if the income was less, the better life style with family & friends & better health was worth more than whatever they lost in income. Sitting in an aluminium tube for 10 hours per day and ending up back where you started is hardly fun flying. Getting out of bed at 04.00 for 4 days, at home or some motel, is hardly fun flying. The days of lying on a beach for 4 days every week are over. Life is not a dry run rehearsal; go for it and enjoy it as best you can. Share some touring trips and aeros. Fly for fun, live for fun. They are not always the same thing.

LS-4

3rd Mar 2015, 17:20

Do you often ponder the potential safety implications of today's reality? How fatigue, internal and external stressors etc. can affect the margins?

Parts of the general public don't seem to appreciate it much when some pilots and others express their worries. They seem to assume that current regulations are adequate, and thus there is nothing to worry about. The fact that humans form an essential and vulnerable part of a larger and imperfect system seems to go right over their heads.

RAT 5

3rd Mar 2015, 20:32

I have a friend who is a heart & lung surgeon; his wife is a gynaecological surgeon. Their stories about their rosters scares the living, or not, daylights out of me. They do not have an autopilot/autoland; they do not have check lists; they do not have a roster that allows protected sleep before major ops. They do a duty day and then 12 hours SBY: with a young family. An op can take 5-10 hrs and call out can be in the middle of the night, or just as you go to bed. It's frightening; and their dept's are as cash strapped as airines claim to be. Difference is the hospitals are not share-holder driven, but they are performance factor driven: comes to the same thing. The heart dept can only afford operations 4 days per week, because of funds. It is the greatest cause of death in some age groups. Not enough dosh, so die.
We are not alone. But money continues yet to wash its way around the financial system and markets. Bonuses are being paid to :mad:. Please! Priorities. Sometimes it makes me humble.

cgwhitemonk11

4th Mar 2015, 18:32

Desk-pilot

4th Mar 2015, 19:13

I just wanted to comment on the poster who said he has to laugh at pilots saying how knackered they are - well it depends massively on what kind airline you fly for and what your sector lengths are. I fly for a regional - duty days are 8-11 hours, 4-6 flights a day (usually 4), roster pattern is 5 days on, 2 days off and I get up at 4.15am as many as 4 days in a row. As a right seat FO in my company with 7 years experience I learned recently that I earn LESS than the fuellers at Manchester - that's right the guy fuelling the plane makes more money than the guy flying it!! Mid to high £30's is what we earn and just bear in mind that a year 1 qualified train driver starts on £44k and I can assure you is far better protected in terms of rest breaks and days worked - they certainly aren't working 5 on 2 off I can assure you, and nor are the dispatchers, the fire crews, our own crewing dept, the engineers or anybody else. Try supporting a wife and kids on £35k in the South of England!!

You might have joined BA or Easyjet, you might be on £110k a year as an Easyjet Capt after 8 years with your 5/3 5/4 roster pattern but some of us are trapped on turboprops in the regionals or in Monarch in the right seat (which also pays £35k) where there has been restructuring and are working a heck of a lot harder for a lot less money.

Oh if somebody can send me a contact at TAG that sounds amazing!!

beamer

5th Mar 2015, 05:07

For anyone considering part-time working with their existing company, may I offer a word of caution. I went 75% with my airline last year - thirty days on roster, ten days off, having previously been flying 800 hrs plus with a mix of short/medium/longhaul. So far, I find myself flying at a rate which will produce 700 hrs this year and I am sure you can do the sums as well as I. Balpa believes the reduction of flying hours should be proportionate, the Company believes it has the right to roster up to FTL limits and of course they are about to change in the wrong direction. The roster machine now produces a schedule of long duty days/nights to maximise my productivity, no short days other than the odd ski flight. Net result, by the middle of my on-roster period, the old problem of tiredness raises its ugly head again and I find myself counting the days down until my next off-roster block.

My life-style has improved but not to the extent I had hoped for when I signed up for the deal.

Best regards from the world of the one-eyed teddy bear............

Pucka

5th Mar 2015, 07:21

Yes...welcome to the new world order...try 900 HR rosters..min rest down route, min rest back home...then layer on being marginalised, a work to rule roster, a hatred of the coal face from management, bad air and ever reducing so called, benefits....

A and C

5th Mar 2015, 07:34

The grass on the other side of the fence is greener mostly because most of the contributors to this thread are painting it that way.

Thirty years ago I was in a big engineering company and like all UK industry it treated any one who got their hands dirty like S**t.

Going flying was much better in terms of the way I was regarded and the pay was not bad ...... Better than engineering !

There is no doubt that you can make better money than flying but the stresses are different, commuting on the tube, hours stuck in traffic, having your prices undercut by cheap immigrant labour, the VAT man Etc Etc..................

When I come home none of this stuff is nagging at the back of my mind.......I just shut the hangar doors.

Pull the Handel and you could get what you want but my guess is that you are just going to exchange one type of stress for another.

Enzo999

5th Mar 2015, 08:12

80k a year, let's all go to Tag!!

chrian_dk

5th Mar 2015, 08:27

how about norwegian, aaaaahahahahahahaha

macdo

5th Mar 2015, 08:38

We have quite a few pilots on 75 and 50% contracts. The common comment for all I have spoken to is 'wish I had done it years ago'.
The other common thread in these conversations is that mostly they are in their late 50's or early 60's. Twenty years ago all these people would have been retired, but for various reasons have to or want to carry on and the mind maybe willing, but the flesh struggles to cope. It's well documented that shift work and night work reduce your life span.

LS-4

5th Mar 2015, 08:55

I must say I laugh at all the guys saying how knackered they are, I used to work 16 hour shifts on my feet back to back on less than 'minimum rest!!!' .....

Never had an easier job than flying for an airline, you all need a reality check.
Granted any job you have been doing for 20+ years will be tiring and there is no doubt it seems to be harder on the older guys, which I understand. But go out into the real world and see the dwindling T&C's across the board, and the next time you complain about doing 6 sectors think of the dispatchers and fuelers pulling 10-14 hour shifts on :mad: pay.

I've previously been working relatively long shifts on my feet (with a good deal of carrying, running, climbing and so on) as unskilled labour in a poor work environment with lacking resources. The job turned into an unconventional effort to compensate for the shortcomings of local management. Minimum salary, poor terms. Things improved dramatically only after a corporate intervention.

It was an experience, to say the least. But I fail to see any rationale to use that experience to somehow justify deteriorating terms and conditions in commercial aviation, especially in light of the safety aspect. I don't expect golden salaries/pension/insurance compared to other industries in the same country, but I do expect professional treatment and a sound respect for margins.

avturboy

5th Mar 2015, 09:13

.... As a right seat FO in my company with 7 years experience I learned recently that I earn LESS than the fuellers at Manchester - that's right the guy fuelling the plane makes more money than the guy flying it!!

Don't worry the bean counters are on to it!

Many years ago fuellers were employed by the oil co's and t&c's were great, but now all fuellers are employed by contracting companies and slowly but surely the t&c's are being eroded.

Just a couple of weeks ago I saw an advert for fuelling staff for one of the contractor companies at MAN, it was £15 per hour zero hours contract.

It seems we're all in a race to the bottom with t&c's

macdo

5th Mar 2015, 10:29

I think you'll find some of the old contract pursers at BA earn more than new contact Fo's!
and I personally knew a BA baggage handler at BA 15 years ago who was on nearly twice my wage as a new Tp FO!
By and large these are exceptions to the rule, but you have to laugh sometimes!

Desk-pilot

5th Mar 2015, 10:49

Upgrade to Capt gives a basic of about £61k I think which is respectable but still only barely comparable to some of the better FO jobs on jets.

Sam Ting Wong

5th Mar 2015, 12:09

Try something exotic. Nothing to lose if you want to quit anyway. Asia or Africa etc., anything outside your comfort zone.

I left Europe about 10 years ago. While I have my days, most certainly would not become a pilot again in the first place, in general no regrets about the move.

LLuCCiFeR

5th Mar 2015, 13:37

A question to the young 16hr day/min rest hero.These are the people why I'm also thinking more and more about pulling the handle. Too many naive and brainwashed idiots in this profession who want to serve their own head on a plate to management in a desperate effort to appease them. Too many idiots who can't think 10-20 years into the future.

Maybe this particular form of Stockholm Syndrome is a side-effect of this much talked about Aerotoxic Syndrome? :ugh:

birdieonfirst

5th Mar 2015, 15:39

As a A380 captain for one of the three Middle East Bigs, I must say that life is definitely very good.

It's a long way to the top, but once there, it's time to enjoy the good life...
Don't give up guys. There definitely are good gigs out there!

SMOC

5th Mar 2015, 15:51

I too have had it with this industry and am actively looking at ways to leave, as said a long history with aviation makes starting a new career daunting especially with a family.

I recently posted this on another forum regarding declining conditions, mainstream jobs don't suffer the same continual degradation simply because people pack up and leave, something that rarely happens for aircrew, so while all jobs may be under attack seniority brings a whole other level of abuse.

it distills down to what sort of career do you want - fulfilling or declining in a spiral to the first accident?

1. Unfortunately seniority means it's simply too great a pay cut to leave and start at the bottom of a new airline.

2. Secondly the continuing spiral, forces crew to stay longer to recoup the loss in expected earnings.

I'm afraid the root cause to airlines all over the world attacking conditions and getting away with it is seniority, while it does have benefits when adhered to and obviously without it would mean new problems.

Without it you may end up retiring at 55 as a lifetime F/O because you followed the money and jumped ship anytime more cash was available.

(What never be a Captain you must be joking, oh that shiny jet and all that ego I'd rather get a pay cut!)

New joiners today will probably be Captains for 20+yrs but will have to fly to 67+ with the lack of inflationary pay rises.

I know it's a ugly concept to get around but every other profession on the planet functions without seniority perfectly well, and as said would generate new problems but at least if you didn't like it you could leave and that is something airlines wouldn't like, unfortunately for them we are expensive investments worth keeping and the only reason to stay would be for lifestyle and pay, two of the things that CX is continuing to decimate.

Look at all the F/Os sacrificing command for lifestyle, the pay simply isn't worth it, they would have left if they could but they can't, and the company damn well knows it!

And before anyone quotes me saying

oh that shiny jet and all that ego I'd rather get a pay cut!

means pay would go down with a lack of a seniority system is not looking at rest of the world yes, some people get promoted who shouldn't but it's not the majority, the most qualified get promoted and/or move with free will, and as a result improve their pay and conditions.

If you can bang out, good luck just come back to let us know that it's possible.:ok:

beamer

5th Mar 2015, 16:47

Moon

I may be wrong but I think we might work for the same company !

AtomKraft

6th Mar 2015, 09:02

A viable alternative, if you have a suitable type rating, is to go contracting.

Wish I'd done it years ago.

Now picking up nearly twice what I used to get with a well known Big Airline that Flys to Cities, no stress, enjoying the work and happier than I ever was at my previous organised slavery employer.

Had to learn to be a pilot again, which took a little while. BACF guys will understand.

It's not for everyone, but if it suits YOU, ya'll look back and wonder why you waited.....

:ok:

Uplinker

6th Mar 2015, 10:20

Interesting thread.

You always have to be careful in industries where they put you in a uniform. Usually, it means they are going to shaft you in some way: think security guards, armed forces, cabin crew, pilots.....

Do all those complaining of fatigue actually put in fatigue reports? That would be a start, (and I include myself in that). Fatigue when driving home is still fatigue caused by the rostering.

When I told my previous airline boss that working 6 on 2 off and starting on earlies, finishing on lates, was so fatiguing, he said you don't work that pattern as much as you think you do. (We did, so I left).

RAT 5

6th Mar 2015, 15:36

When I told my previous airline boss that working 6 on 2 off and starting on earlies, finishing on lates, was so fatiguing, he said you don't work that pattern as much as you think you do. (We did, so I left).

I once had a discussion with my C.P. We were rostered the minimum 8 days off per 28. It didn't matter if there was any work to do or not, only 8 days off. Sometime there were stupid days of positioning, single sector flight, taxi home. A very long day to achieve very little; but it had to be a duty day: or endless SBY's. I suggested that, as Ops worked 4 on 4 off with late & early shifts and a more restful duty roster; the more so considering they were not locked in a tiny box, the pilots might also deserve a shift pattern of days on/off.
"You don't work shifts. Case closed."

We did, so I left.

AtomKraft

6th Mar 2015, 19:44

I too, had a similar experience.

At my first employer, Loganair, they were very easy about days off. If they didn't need you, they put you OFF.

However, that was in 1996......

After that, it was very much as described above, and with a very clear emphasis on how overpaid we all were.

I left.:p

Rick777

6th Mar 2015, 20:42

I find it kind of funny that so many guys who have either quit the industry or are planning on it are still on pprune.

Castle Don

6th Mar 2015, 21:08

I read a lot of references to "hanging in there" for a big shiny jet and high salary, but honestly I would be careful. I would never try to quench a fellow aviator's passion but, if you are ready to walk away right now, you will be sick to your back teeth of the whole lifestyle in another 10 years if you stay..... long haul command or not. I am mid forties and working long haul for a very well respected carrier in Asia.......and I am done. At what should be the peak of my career, I have come to the tough realization that it is a mundane, thankless job with no scope for creativity, and it destroys any semblance of a normal family and/or social life. Now, it was all those things 20 years ago also, but with age comes perspective I suppose. For me it is time to let go and enjoy family and friends. I took a 2 year break a number of years ago. I know I will not miss it one bit.

Whatever you decide, best of luck.

captplaystation

6th Mar 2015, 21:16

Just pull the handle mate . . . enjoy that last blissful flight .

Mach E Avelli

7th Mar 2015, 21:38

In 49 years of commercial aviation I was fired once, made redundant once, kicked out of one country during a revolution and saw three companies go belly up.
But I had a ball. No regrets about any of it, not even the financial losses (though they hurt at the time).
My last flight ended with the third bankruptcy, but I knew it was coming. Since then, I have not missed it one bit. I sleep much better knowing I don't have to tumble out of bed at o' dark thirty. I eat proper food and I choose to do as little or much with my day as the mood takes.
However, it is nice to remain associated via part time simulator work. But if someone offered me a flying gig, no way would I go back.

No Fly Zone

8th Mar 2015, 08:15

Only YOU can make the choice.

After 35+ years in a very different profession, one much loved, the toxic overhead became too much. I bailed out years early simply because I could. Part of my thinking was that I could return within 3-4 years if I really missed it or truly needed to. Nuts! Pushing 64, I've been 'retired' since late '08, work harder that I ever have before, and would not go back at 2x the income. It worked for me and perfectly. For you, only you can decide. The only real advice that I can offer is pay attention to your feelings and QOL standards. If jumping it the right course, go for it.
Having a plan won't hurt, but if you have other skills or interests, use them. If you are seriously concerned about money, wait a few or five years, ,save like a chipmunk, cut expenses to the bone and reconsider... You sound a bit young, so you have better options than I did. Use them!
Many pilots or so committed that they cannot consider anything else. Most of the really smart ones always have a "Plan B" in their back pocket. (Loss of medical certificate, for example..) Make a "Plan B" and when able, consider again. Good luck!! If your Quality of Life (QOL) is not up to standards, make a plan to FIX IT. You do have choices...:D

rivet squeezer

8th Mar 2015, 11:14

There seems to be a worrying amount of guys on here saying how tired, knackered, dead-on-their-feet they are. I am not a pilot (yet) but will be starting training very shortly, and just wondered what makes people so tired?

Please don't jump down my throat but I'm struggling to see how people can be so tired they had to pull over at road services 20 mins away from home after a shift as one poster mentioned. Surely you can't be that tired? I mean let's say you flew 900 hours a year, and doubled that for ground duties ect (I don't know exactly how much that would be but I can't see it being more than that) that's still 1800 hours per year, considerably less than many other professions that involve a lot of physical work also.

I can understand that early mornings are hard work, and certainly 12 hour days are very tiring but these are by no means unique to professional flying.

Again I'm not disputing that people are very tired, and I may well be completely missing the point as to the reasons why they are so please excuse my ignorance but if anyone could explain exactly what's causing it it would be very helpful, mainly to help me make an informed choice as to whether a professional pilot career is truly what I want.

JaxofMarlow

8th Mar 2015, 13:14

rivet squeezer……

short answer to your conundrum is No, its not the right career choice. Guess that someone is about to stump up £110k to pay for your training. Then you will take a crap job paying nothing in the hope that one day it will get better. But every day that passes and with every additional new entrant who has paid for his seat the bean counters rub their hands harder and harder while they find new ways to make life that bit more intolerable than before.

When you grow up and have a few less hormones coursing through your body you will realise that after 20 years of 4.30 starts and 21.00 return for 3 days then 2 12.00 starts with 02.00 return can be a bit tiring. And that is if you are lucky enough to get a UK post.

In short, the first few weeks will be fine. It is fun for a bit and you are sitting in a shinny new jet and will have a new iPhone. But the T and Cs are only going one way and it won't be in your favour.

Oldaircrew

8th Mar 2015, 13:14

You must remember that some of us, would have woken up at 1230 am for a 3 am departure. Then there are those who leave at 9 pm for a night turn to India landing at 5 am. They often then sign on at 7 or 8 that same night of the arrival for a further night flight to the sub continent. Do up to 20 days of that a month and you have an A330 Captains roster.

You will find that you will also look like you have been buttboned by the monster that raped New York.

somethingclever

8th Mar 2015, 14:28

rivet squeezer, I would implore you to change your career if you haven't started and quit if you have, but I know that it's pointless.

So all I will say is best of luck. Save money. Go hog wild for the first year and #€% all the hostesses and get an M3 but after that, save ALL the money.

Repay your debts, save enough to live off of if you decide to leave and start figuring out something to study during cruise.

I give anyone starting today 1/500 chance of retiring as a pilot.

Myself I'm still thinking about leaving and I do have some options. Not sure just yet. And just to be clear, I have one of the desirable jobs in Europe.

Aviation isn't about "getting a job" it's about getting a good job. You can fly cargo out of Nigeria for 5 bucks and fall asleep to gun fire at night but is that a career? A life? Fewer and fewer good jobs and a steady stream of pilots willing to pay to get them.

Game. Set. Match.

Don't do it.

stiglet

8th Mar 2015, 17:04

rivet squeezer - if you have to ask the question then the answer is No.

I've spent a lifetime in aviation and I wouldn't change it for the world. There are some very negative comments on here.

Yes there are hardships but that's the nature of the job: it's not 9-5 Monday to Friday, it's often early morning starts or late night finishes, you'll miss important dates and have to cancel on friends, and then there's the cost and how you're going to pay for the training. I know it's controversial to say but half the tiredness and fatigue is caused by individuals own lifestyles.

However the rewards are great: the views for one, it's never boring, the pay and conditions are generally very good (everyone on here complains but 100k+, where else are you going to earn that as captain in possibly in your early 30's). And if you just like to fly there is nothing else like it.

Like most jobs it's what you make it.

It's not all an 'easy' ride but if you're committed I'd say go for it; you don't sound to me as if you are.

rivet squeezer

8th Mar 2015, 17:34

JaxofMarlow...

I clearly touched a nerve there and apologies for that but there's no need to try and patronise me with regards to my age! I may be fairly young but have been working since I left school at 16. I'm a licensed engineer now and work 2 days followed by 2 nights on shift, then usually do a couple of days overtime and have been doing this for years. Many times I have travelled to carry out AOG repairs and worked all through the night on the back of a 12 hour shift so trust me I know what tired is!

I did mention in my first post that I wasn't trying to say that it's not a tiring job, however I will say again it's not unique to aviation and there are many other jobs out there that are more tiring and pay considerably less. None of the replies to my post have really answered my question either. Nothing has suggested to me that the job of a pilot is more tiring than the one I already have. Perhaps I'm used to it now as long shifts are all I know but I still stand by my original post.

Stiglet...

Finally a positive post! Trust me I am committed, I mainly asked the question out of interest and try and perhaps make some people realise the grass isn't always greener. I agree with everything you have said in your post and that's exactly how I look at it. Maybe I will be on here in ten years time complaining about fatigue, maybe not...one thing's for sure it can't be any more fatiguing than the job I have now, but I'd bet it's a lot more enjoyable!

JaxofMarlow

8th Mar 2015, 18:11

Don't say you weren't warned. Yep, we are all earning £100k + by the time we are 30. Laughing my tits off now.

You already have a career. Stick to it and fly for fun. Don't believe the hype selling you a place on a training course. Yes, there maybe a shortage, from the airlines point of view, of pilots who will fly for FA but how long are you going to be happy to do that ? There is massive downward pressure on pilots terms and conditions and now they have caught on to the fact that there is an endless supply of cheap labour the pressure will get worse. Only a matter of time before captains terms are attacked in the same way. You may be lucky and get the right seat from the outset and stick to it for your entire career - but if you do you will have to. Change company and you fall to the bottom again. Three redundancies in the last 9 years have taught me that. You then have to go somewhere your life style may not be compatible with - as I did - reluctantly dragging a wife and two kids to a sandpit for a few years. Back now, but £100k pa. No chance.

Tiredness and fatigue are issues - but they are not the main ones by a long way.

Smokie

8th Mar 2015, 21:07

100k.... I wish, on my 5th company now and the best I have seen is 65k a couple of years ago, it is nearly half that now. And now I am paid in Euro I have taken a big hit with the recent rise in the Pound verse the Euro, losing about £500 a month on that gig..... If I could do something else I would but at the moment Im stuck with it but keeping my eyes wide open.

Your call really.

Deep and fast

8th Mar 2015, 21:54

People talk of the "two buckets" when talking Middle east, but this is just as valid anywhere else. Fill the cash bucket enough and bail or carry the :mad: bucket as long as you can and bail.

It's simple really. Flying a career? No, not any more.

keithl

8th Mar 2015, 22:38

Stiglet has it right. Flying is not a job. It's not even a career. It's a vocation. If you come into it for any other reason than being unable to spend your few years here any other way, you've got it wrong.

I'm seeing too many people come into the profession for the wrong reasons. Yes, I did decide to stop flying, but that was after 32 years. And I'm still involved (part time) because it is all still so interesting. Some flying jobs pay a fortune, others are huge fun. Point is, YOU decide how you spend your life. If you don't really think flying is worth it, then stop.

Someone once said, "You can do whatever you want - provided you are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices". That applies.

Wee Weasley Welshman

8th Mar 2015, 23:06

This year three things happen for me, I am forty, I have clocked up 15 years UK low cost flying and I am going 50% part time.

In some ways that's a damning indictment of the sustainability of this job. In other ways it's a glorious compliment to the lifestyle options of this job.

Every profession outside of politics, media and sport has taken a big bite out of a :mad: sandwich in the last twenty years. Aviation is no different and beware of rose tinted spectacles and surveying greener grass in other fields.

Get busy living, or get busy dying.

AtomKraft

8th Mar 2015, 23:23

Work abroad.
More money
Better flying
Treated better

Metro man

9th Mar 2015, 00:13

Find the right job abroad.
Save money.
Buy property.
Retire early.

OR

Stay in comfort zone.
Pay high taxes together with high cost of living.
Save little if any money.
Rely on diminishing or non existent company pension.
Stay working until you drop.

Cliff Secord

9th Mar 2015, 02:03

Can I drop a hint of advice. Beware recommendations from the old hands talking about having had "a ball" or "just about to retire, no regrets, yes it was tiring but good money, go for it". That advice is now defunct. They joined in the era of different times and found themselves on the gravy train and high up the seniority/pay scales/ rostering agreements and have been shielded from the reality of finding themselves out on the street post redundancy seeing what it's like to start from scratch under today's terms, Those terms they enjoyed are just about to be overturned as they retire.

Everyone can tell you about what it was like in the past or how it is now but no one (we'd all like to know) can tell you what it will be like during your career time. A clue is its heading one way rather quickly. We're now at levels where trains drivers pull in more than a lot of pilots and have better hours and pensions, or contracts. Monarch, BA. They've all had changes the last year. Don't fool yourself thinking it will stop there. Fine, if the Job costs you nowt to get in but it doesn't.

And yes it's very fatiguing. I've done seriously long hours of manual labor in a past life and although felt tired, never knew what true fatigue was. I thought I did in an arrogant way as I had experienced hard graft but little did I know how :mad: by a train you could feel after years of airline flying, I've done short, medium and long haul and it all takes it out of you. Maybe not in the old days when you had decent rest but with min rest and shifts/ night turns/stress/family pressures it all takes its toll.

SMOC

9th Mar 2015, 03:20

Cliff Secord

Well said, be nice if IFALPA actually conducted a study to show this and hopefully find a solution to turn it around.

dboy

9th Mar 2015, 07:48

More and more i meet pilots who want to quit their job for something else. Most of them are experienced people who already lived their dream and now facing the backside of this medal....and i am one of them.

I feel that the whole pilot job is an unnatural job. You always have to work day and night, facing jet lags, not having a normal social life, working at high altitudes etc. Something against mother nature ( i dont how call this). We all have our roots and are somehow always attached to this. The older we get, the more pronounced it is. I recently found a nice place to stay in my surroundings where i used to grow up as a youngster. I know the area, having my friends there, can speak my mother language.....i am feeling at home. Moving somewhere else, leaving (again) everything behind just for the sake of flying is also getting harder and harder. I was really demotivated because of this, even if the new aircraft was an A320. And i believe if you want to stay in flying business, there is no other choice. It is asking for sacrifices. I recently refused 3 jobs offers because i had to move again. People call me crazy but hey, they are not pilots. And to be honest, still i do not regret with my choice. I know already that i will quit my flying job within the 1.5 year. (Hopefully i find something else). The only thing i am afraid of is my salary. I never thought i would be saying this but i hope soon for a very stable regular life. This is not a negative comment on the pilotjob but more a realistic one.

3Greens

9th Mar 2015, 09:29

Rivet

The differance between tiredness and fatigue is worth researching. Sure, you are working shifts and long hours now; however, when you go home to sleep it is in your own bed and more importantly, your own time zone. This is not to be underestimated. Many times I've arrived in a hotel shattered, yet unable to actually get a decent kip because of that pesky circadian rthyhm. ( again, worth a Google as this will determine your life if you go for it).
Believe me when I say I have also worked for a living before flying, but tiredness after crossing several time zones is A tiredness like no other.
Although on a positive note, I enjoy the job and wouldn't want to do Anything else. I can sleep on the plane well which makes a huge differance on long haul. The pay is very good, and I get plenty of time off at home and downroute. I do however work for BA on a legacy contract.
Good luck with whatever your choose.

stiglet

9th Mar 2015, 10:28

Well it just goes to show what a personal choice it is. I do agree aviation and the job is now different. It is what it is and yes the conditions have changed. Do you want to look back in 10 years time and think 'if only'.

From your tag you're young, live in the UK, maybe single and have a good solid qualification which you could fall back on. Do you have access to funds that you 'might' be gambling with? By the state of your progress you do.

If you go down this route undoubtably the first few years will be tough. The new boys on the block seem to think that it was always so easy for everyone - no it certainly wasn't. Some did have an easier ride than others but it was by no means everyone, I'm now reaping the rewards of a long, hard fought career. You make of the job what you want and if it's really what you want you can't get it anywhere else. Most other jobs that give this level of satisfaction and reward are also hard to start with; anything that's worthwhile often is. Those in the job will continue to fight for better T&C and some headway is being made even if it's only giving more options.

Sometimes there's a glut of pilots, sometimes a shortage; your options will depend on which it is when you qualify.

I also wish you good luck whatever you choose.

Cliff Secord

9th Mar 2015, 11:17

I don't see terms improving in Europe. Why would they anyway. Interesting just reading the Monarch thread. Cadets starting on 21k part time contracts. Try servicing a debt on that.

If you find yourself stuck on the skid row of the new wave of employment practice it's easy to see why finding an alternative career path is considered. Pilots are trained to be balanced and have plan B and C. So it makes sense if the job is affecting your life and family to re consider alternatives. Being told to suck it up from people on legacy terms that will not exist for too long is irrational and lacks appreciation for the reality for some people in this career.

Tank2Engine

9th Mar 2015, 12:15

Pilots are trained to be balanced and have plan B and C. Hmm, sorry Cliff, but IMHO pilots were trained to think outside the box and plan accordingly. It seems to me that the current generation of magenta line P2F/P4T pilots would make the average nazi proud: "Befehl ist Befehl" (orders are orders) is the motto that has taken over from the "safety first" mentality.

When your employer, rubber-stamped by the hopelessly incompetent authorities, shouts "JUMP!" then the only things you as a pilot have to ask are; "how high, how long and what's minimum rest?"

Just like the financial services industry nearly collapsed in 2008 due to 'self-regulation,' this of course is a crash waiting to happen but the airlines and authorities don't care because they have given themselves a 'stay out of jail card' in the form of "pilot error." The only 'authority' you have left as a pilot is to accept the blame if, God forbid, it all goes horribly wrong one day.

Having suffered from a serious bout of insomnia myself, I can only say that I now fully understand how chronic sleep deprivation (read: fatigue!) can be such an effective torture method, and that this very convenient side-effect from the EASA FTL's will turn the entire pilot workforce into docile lambs.

I've tried it all; flying turbo prop commuters, low cost and now long haul. The deflationary Tsunami of ever lower T&C's and ever more lethal FTL's is continuing it's devastating path, and from a 40 year old pilot's perspective there just does not seem to be any more high ground left to escape to.

There is only one escape left: GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN, and leave the industry to the dumb idiots paying for 500 hours on a 737.

stiglet

9th Mar 2015, 12:34

I'm not saying it's perfect and I deplore the pay for a type rating situation but when you join these days you know what you're getting into. There are very few options out there to have all your training paid for; for most at best you will have to fund your initial training. If you want to jump directly into an airline you'll just have to 'suck it up' and take the hit with your finances until you gain experience; that's the way it's gone and that's the way we've let it go. I feel more sorry for those with experience who are now stuck in a rut when cadets jump them in the queue for the jets (if that's what they want).

The improving conditions I refer to relate more to options such as: P/T, fixed roster patterns, parental leave, company share schemes and pensions none of which were offered in my first airline and most of which have been gained in the last few years. Then there's the ops support we now have which is routinely taken forgranted. Money isn't always the biggest issue. At least as an FO the only way is up and the financial rewards are unquestionably very reasonable when you reach captain - whether they stay that way is anyones guess.

So for the poster who was considering leaving here are differing views and for the one considering joining a lot to mull over. No one is forced to join so why is there so much angst going on; I don't hear it so much in other professions, at least not to this extent? Compared to the rest of the population we have it good.

bringbackthe80s

9th Mar 2015, 12:34

I can't believe the comments I am reading on here. Honestly what planet do you guys live in?

Have you had a look at the real world outside of aviation? Ever spoke to an architect, lawyer or even better a plumber or builder. Do you realize the lack of jobs we are facing?

I speak for myself, and I can promise you there is nothing else I'd be able to do on even 1/4th of the salary. From what I read on here it seems like everyone can get another job lined up quickly and live a wounderful stable life. Lucky you. For the rest of us, toughen up and get on with it until you get a nice part time if that's what you want, or you're in for a tough surprise out there. Just sayin'.

Tank2Engine

9th Mar 2015, 14:16

Have you had a look at the real world outside of aviation? Ever spoke to an architect, lawyer or even better a plumber or builder. Do you realize the lack of jobs we are facing?Yes, I talk to plenty of 'real world' people, and when you factor out the prestige from being a pilot then there is little left of your argument. Lack of jobs? You mean like the lack of pilot jobs that those present 500 hour P2F pilots are facing? Just try to project the downward pressure on FTL's and T&C's forward 10-20 years and think about what the world will look like. :\

You do have somewhat of a point in that more and more jobs get outsourced and that everybody has to work hard(er) for a living, but for some pilots the lack of lifestyle, social life and the cumulative effect of fatigue and jet-lag just aren't worth it anymore. Some people only live to fly and limit themselves to looking inside the box when it comes to earning money, while others take a critical look at past, present and future and think: "where is this all going?" "is this really worth it?" and "can I do something else in life?"

I find that most people who are the least critical of the aviation business are the ones that have the smallest social life and least number of activities and hobbies and are the most caught up in the rat race of buying a bigger house, a bigger car and keeping up with the neighbours.

For the rest of us, toughen up and get on with it until you get a nice part time if that's what you want, or you're in for a tough surprise out there. Just sayin'. Just sayin' but despite EU directives, almost no company offers good part-time solutions anymore. Most companies only offer part-time during the (s)lower parts of the business cycle like during the winter months, but so far I have never worked for a company that will, in writing, give me part time, unless they can cancel it within a few months. In my present company many pilots want part-time, but the company just refuses to give it.

Fact is, most companies do NOT want happy well rested part-time pilots, they just want to mob you away by working you to death so that they can replace you with a fresh and cheaper pilot.

...and with my last comment we've come full circle again, as people have had enough of the mobbing, enough of the fatigue, enough of the lack of part-time, enough of the total lack of social life and lifestyle and simply want OUT!

echofly

9th Mar 2015, 15:27

Good thread.
This industry is very very unforgivable.

rivet squeezer

9th Mar 2015, 21:53

Some interesting comments here for sure and a few seem to be genuinely trying to give advice, which certainly gives food for thought and is much appreciated.

However...

For me, becoming a professional pilot is something I can honestly say, "it's all I've ever wanted to do." It's something I feel I have to do and if I don't I'll severely regret it once I'm too old. Not because I want to walk through the terminal with my aviators on followed by a string a hosties fighting over who's going to sit on my knee in the flight deck. Or for the money for that matter (if I can make what I earn now I'd be happy). It's because I have a genuine passion for aircraft and aviation. An appreciation of the technology and engineering. An utter sense of awe being at the controls of a Tobago TB-10.

I'm not going to pay the ridiculous Oxford or CTC prices to get my licence and certainly don't believe the :mad: they spout about a pilot shortage. I'm not going to get into mortgage size debt over it or put my parents house on the line. I've set myself up to be able to fund the training myself and have a back-up career I could easily go back to if flying doesn't work out.

I'm sure many of you felt the same way I do and I'm not saying you now hate your job because you got into it for the wrong reasons. Maybe I'll feel the same as many of you guys on here in ten years time. Maybe not.

One thing's for sure. If I do I certainly won't continue as life's too short to hate your career that much and it certainly can't be healthy. One thing I've learnt during my fairly short career though is that the ones who moan the loudest have been there the longest and will never move on, so it can't be that bad :}

waco

10th Mar 2015, 00:30

...........and as automation continues its inevitable path.

RHS.....internship only or minimal pay.

LHS T's & C's similar to train driver at best.

Surely that's obvious ?

Will two people be required in on the flight deck in 20 years ?

parabellum

10th Mar 2015, 04:37

and have been shielded from the reality of finding themselves out on the street post redundancy

I see, so BCal, Dan Air, Laker, Air Europe, Air Wales, to name just five, never happened then? Youthful arrogance once more to the fore, I fear. :rolleyes:

PPRuNeUser0173

10th Mar 2015, 09:48

I jacked it in as soon as my mortgage was paid off and although at first I missed airline flying soon decided that I would do CPL/IR/MEP training but after about six years even that became tedious.

Now running a property rental business life consists of dog walking in the morning and business stuff in the afternoon and although not rich we get by.

Would I recommend flying as a career - emphatically NO. It isn't worth getting into debt plus considering the FTL scheme is changing and T,s and C,s getting worse makes for an unhappy life and more importantly an unhappy wife.

What would I do now - get a PPL and group share then fly when and where I want on my terms.

stiglet

10th Mar 2015, 10:50

Plainly I'm in the minority on this forum in enjoying my career and loving flying; even after all these years it is obviously a true vocation for me and yes I've been lucky. I can understand you don't want to look back in years to come with any regrets at not having tried when it's something you've always wanted to do.

I have one last thought for you, it's not meant as a suggestion but just something for you to consider if you are determined to become a commercial pilot. There are lots of different types of flying jobs out there, airline flying being but one. It sounds as if you are well prepared and have done your research well and I commend your attitude.

The observation is this: you have discounted going to Oxford or CTC for obvious reasons however, regretably, it is becoming very difficult to take the improves route into the major airlines as most of the larger airlines predominantly take their new pilots from these schools.

john smith - I don't think he's been nieve; I think he's thought this through and done his research. He's done what so many on this forum have recommended before and got himself a good qualification/trade that he can fall back on if things don't turn out. These days people do change careers more than they did in the past so why should this be any more difficult. I would suggest the vast majority of the working population hate their job and in fact proportionally less in aviation. His desire to be a pilot appears to be for all the right reasons so why should he want to stop or hate the job as you suggest so many of us do? He's had a job in aviation so he understands the environment and the work ethic involved.

Greenlights

10th Mar 2015, 11:00

One advice that many wannabe forget :

it is not because you have a passion that you absolutely have to make it as a job.
being an airline pilot is nothing like being a leisure pilot. Once you are really aware of this, than you can make a choice.

Bokkenrijder

10th Mar 2015, 11:48

...........and as automation continues its inevitable path.

Will two people be required in on the flight deck in 20 years ? Yes, and for two reasons;

1) as you've indicated yourself already, the second person will hardly (if at all) cost the airline any money because they will be 'self-sponsored,' magenta line following, seat warming idiots who will keep quiet because they're sitting on a mountain of debt,
2) it's much easier and more convenient to blame the two patsies sitting in the pointy end, instead of blaming only one pilot + the automation (read: Boeing/Airbus). Even partly blaming the automation will lead to years and years of expensive lawsuits against powerful and big corporations, something that will be easily avoided by blaming the pilots.

Dress these two idiots up as professionally looking clowns (hey, they'll even pay for their own uniform!), throw around some completely false and outdated statements like "safety is our number one priority" and create the image that pilots are overpaid and arrogant, and the dumb public will be even happier to step on board of that aircraft with 2 fatigued pilots in the cockpit and minimum fuel in the tanks.

It's all smoke, mirrors and appearances, and the public is so dumb and brainwashed that they'll believe everything. Heck, a lot of the pilots even believe it themselves as you can see from some of the statements in this thread. :ugh:

PPRuNeUser0173

10th Mar 2015, 12:05

Dress these two idiots up as professionally looking clowns (hey, they'll even pay for their own uniform!), throw around some completely false and outdated statements like "safety is our number one priority" and create the image that pilots are overpaid and arrogant, and the dumb public will be even happier to step on board of that aircraft with 2 fatigued pilots in the cockpit and minimum fuel in the tanks.

Well said Bokkenrijder!!

I even wonder if the general public are aware that the FTL scheme is changing for the worse. Only after a smoking hole in the ground I suspect.

JaxofMarlow

10th Mar 2015, 14:23

rivet squeezer. More insight on the Monarch thread. Check out Enzo999.

waco

10th Mar 2015, 21:43

Bokkenrijder

Take a bow......spot on.

Mr Angry from Purley

11th Mar 2015, 00:09

I even wonder if the general public are aware that the FTL scheme is changing for the worse. Only after a smoking hole in the ground I suspect.

Golf - tell us what's changing with the FTL scheme that you think will cause a hole in the ground? Any fatigue concerns can only be perception at this time.:\

Cliff Secord

11th Mar 2015, 00:52

Quote:
and have been shielded from the reality of finding themselves out on the street post redundancy
I see, so BCal, Dan Air, Laker, Air Europe, Air Wales, to name just five, never happened then? Youthful arrogance once more to the fore, I fear.

Wind your neck in. I'm very bloody far from youthful (wish I was). Quoting out of context is easy. Clarifying my meaning - those that are saying "come on in" can't have found themselves out on the street facing TODAY'S options and terms for starting at the bottom (which you do experienced or not). Those days were bad, but when the storms cleared the lifestyle and options available were still healthy enough. Not today.

Caboclo

11th Mar 2015, 07:23

I quit. Best move I ever made. On the one hand, I was already trained and experienced in a different trade, so it was pretty easy from a financial standpoint. However, I was one of the few who still loved flying, even after getting paid for it. I loved the experience, just couldn't bring myself to work for regional airline pay, after having made half-way decent money and accrued 7K hours in small freighters. 3 years later I still miss flying, dream about it all the time, but I have absolutely no regrets. I'm almost debt-free, don't stress about losing my medical, enjoy a great deal of respect at work, and generally have a reasonable expectation of each subsequent year being better than the previous one.

Mach E Avelli

11th Mar 2015, 08:20

The consensus here seems to be that the profession of pilot is no longer attractive. But there will always be those who just have to do it, just as those of my generation had to do it.
The best advice I can offer anyone with the money and determination to take up flying is to qualify in something else first, because you may never make it to that coveted left seat of a jet. And, even if you do, you may come to hate the bloody sacrifices you have to make to get there. So a fall back qualification is essential.
To those like the OP - who at 7000 hours has already invested perhaps a third of his useful working life in the game - either use your current income to qualify in something useful (if you are not already) or get into the check and training scene or some associated management position such as fleet captain or operations manager. Then you may be able to pick up work associated with the industry after pulling the pin.
If you have no other skills, unfortunately there is nothing so useless as an unemployed pilot.

Flightmech

11th Mar 2015, 12:19

Rivet,

You say you are currently a licensed engineer? I have no idea who you work for but i would suggest if your are starting out in commercial flying it will be a considerable time before you earn the kind of money you are making now? No?

RAT 5

11th Mar 2015, 15:22

ShotOne

11th Mar 2015, 17:13

"Why should we be paid more,..." Well for a start because the financial commitment to become a pilot is about twenty times that to become a coach driver, nor does an HGV driver have to pass a stiff test twice a year to keep his licence - if that was actually a serious question.

You say you've never done aviation for the money. If by this you mean it wasn't your prime motivation, then me neither. But if you mean the financial remuneration is unimportant that suggests aviation is a hobby to you rather than a profession.

Greenlights

11th Mar 2015, 18:08

Nobody talks about nirvana here... I think we talk about balance. And pilot jobs requires a lot nowadays for peanuts in return.
Oh, and spare us the "best office view" thanks. Due to sunlight, most of the time I put maps on the windshield or the brown glasses protection and see nothing for hours except efis. ;)

somethingclever

11th Mar 2015, 19:18

find a position with T&C's you're looking for and change to that !

Yes, well that is sort of the point of the thread isn't it? The companies with conditions worth looking at get fewer and fewer. This notion that you can do a few dog years at pay-to-fly Chav Air and then leap over to Gold & Honey Airways until you retire is a mirage waved in your face by flight schools.

By the time you are working 900 hrs a year for no money, all the companies you were hoping to switch to are just as bad. With the help of yourself.

Greenlights

11th Mar 2015, 20:02

go find a position with T&C's you're looking for and change to that !

as if it was so easy... :rolleyes:

ShotOne

11th Mar 2015, 22:58

I'm intrigued how you feel the industry gives you "a pretty good standard of living", Scottish guy, when by your own account, its not providing you any living at all.

I'm not complaining about my own lot; I'm a wide-body Captain and have been fortunate enough to maintain a reasonable career path. But I'm very much aware that if I was starting out today it would be much less rosy. But that situation has arisen, at least in part, because of people like you who treat aviation as a hobby and are prepared to occupy a professional pilot's seat for the "privilege of getting airborne".

Cliff Secord

11th Mar 2015, 23:04

The truth is that this game sucks more and more with every year that passes. Life is too short, simplifying that life is a good start to getting the hell out.

Life ain't a dress rehearsal. This is the real deal. I'm out having done the maths and decided it was possible. I want to die poor, not rich. There were alternatives in work that paid the bills and savings did the rest. Now a couple of pensions have kicked in. The maths were correct and life style/quality of life exploded: that included family time and an ever shortening bucket list. I tried to imagine, especially on a Sunday lunchtime with my mates over a roast, what it would be like to be getting up at 04.00 on Monday for a block of earlies. I started to shake in horror and had another glass of red to calm me down and stop the jitters. Then the memory receded and all was well with the world again. Even my wife smiled at me remembering the gummy old bear that went to bed early and left home for 5 days the morning after. She dreaded the first day of home coming as the 'get it off my chest' saga took longer each time.
It's over and god save whose ever king or queen you support; even a president.

I think that's an interesting post. I've felt like this myself. When you start out, the prospect and emotions attached to the idea of working in the airline world can be a small bit out of proportion. It's easy to smooth over the negatives by the over riding belief that you will enjoy it and all the sacrifices WILL be worth while. Maybe they will for you. Its personal. I love the job but it's caused ramifications in my personal world im not sure im willing to put up with anymore so i'm looking at options. I'll miss flying when I leave but the sacrifice is out of balance for me now and I don't want to peg it and not have had a balanced life as I view a balanced life means to me.

When you get to mid life, have a partner, home, have been furloughed/redundant, fatigued, joined airline "z" on the latest scummy deal then who knows who you'll feel. Some folk don't have this bumpy career path and fair better in the short term. I say short as its a changing world we work in.

Some people no doubt continueing enjoying the job and can make the lifestyle sacrifices work under the state of play as it is at the moment. That's fair play. I respect that a great deal. We're all individuals with individual lives. I like seeing people who are happy.

But what I struggle to understand is how in a world where we're supposed to be emotionally mature, balanced individuals, those same individuals can castigate people for daring to hold their hands up and say "you know what, it ain't working. I'm glad I gave it a whirl, I've no idea what to do next and need to find something because it's making me and my loved ones compromise too much and we've only got one shot here". People who say to give the job up and allow someone who wants to do it for example. You'd expect that of a youngster but not an emotionally mature person. A lot of people got themselves where they are off their own hides and owe the next guy waiting for a seat - nothing. Many would call it a day but need to work out an exit strategy.

Just remember. Folk aren't "pilots" they're people like anyone carving a life, with lives, troubles, births, marriages, joy and illness like anyway else. It's perfectly ok to say it ain't working. Just seems within the piloting field there's folk who believed once you put that label on yourself you've signed into a Faustian deal and need your head checked for even thinking of leaving and are displaying some sort of un greatful misdemeanour towards the Gods who allow piloting for even mentioning alternatives.

Just remember, you popped into this life bare arsed, pink skinned and not much else. You certainly didn't come with a label "life valid only if installed in flight deck"

RexBanner

12th Mar 2015, 09:34

I'm absolutely stunned by some of the posts on here, I truly am. Yes for the most part flying nowadays is not as challenging as in the past. However, when the going gets tough it can be bloody tough.

To compare it to driving an HGV is displaying stunning ignorance of the highest degree. In really :mad: weather in a lorry you can step on the brake and pull over. In an aircraft you are committed to seeing it through to the bitter end (in an environment that is far more complex and changeable than the M4) at the same time as ensuring the safety of hundreds of souls on board with extremely litigious families. Burning human flesh leaves a slightly larger imprint on the mind and the conscience than a supply of IKEA furniture.

I flew an approach just a couple of days ago with a last minute runway change, high, fast, heavy and thirty knots up the chuff. Walk in the park some might say, but I would love to see the outcome with just one person in the flight deck rather than two. Well actually I don't think I would.

I can't believe the attitudes of so called pilots on here that take no pride in their profession and are happy to denigrate it at every opportunity. There are obviously tendencies to self loathing that are running deep on a subconscious level here and I do not know the cause but it's disturbing to see the trend and how common it is. Grow up and have some professional pride. Yes we deserve our money, every penny. Truly baffling to hear any kind of argument otherwise.

This reduction of T's & C's is not something that is particular to pilots. This disturbing trend is happening in just about EVERY profession right now. Take a while to ponder that. Whilst you try to sit and pick holes in your career to find justification in why salaries should decrease just remember that there are a whole group of professionals in fields outside aviation who could conceivably be doing the exact same thing. Don't entertain it, fight against it.

RAT 5

12th Mar 2015, 11:00

A bit of thread creep, and I'll aid and abet that: sorry.

You say that many industries are employing the tactic of reducing T's & C's to remain competitive. You say it is becoming more common to work more for less reward; as customers to buy more for less. As we become used to that it can mean production being driven to LoCo countries as EU financial/social policies & associated costs drive prices too high and consumers will not spend. It will be self-defeating for national economies. Sadly, it will take a quite a long time before governments realise that their local workforce is not working and paying taxes and supporting the older generation. Driving production and services outside your own borders will have consequences in the long term. Capitalism and its demand for short term profit does not follow long term sensible government policy. They are acting in opposite directions.
So T's & C's in EU marketes are being allowed to drift lower yet the ECB says it is disturbed by present low inflation. It wants to increase it to 2% to help recovery and growth. So how does that model accommodate a lowering of incomes? Higher prices with less money to spend. Hm?
One way people can increase their life style is to have 2 wage earners and less children. That has been going on for many years now. A natural process of family financial management. I read that Italy is now in a critical low birthrate dilemma. They project forward a couple of generations and there will not enough wage earners to maintain the economy. No doubt the same could be happening under the radar in the other wealthy countries. So the short term profit gained by lowering T's & C's coupled with higher inflation and the consequent lower birthrate might have some distressing repercussions. Ours is but a very small cog in a very big wheel. That doesn't make it any less painful for our members.

twentyyearstoolate

12th Mar 2015, 12:23

I agree that terms and conditions for workers in nearly all industries have been on a decline in real terms since the late 70's.

Funny that at the same time CEO's relative pays have multiplied by ridiculous amounts. The majority of the workforce take constant small cuts, and then the top of the tree get huge bonuses.

I think we are reaching the limit of how far this can go. Or at least I hope it can't, because it's totally :mad:

Tank2Engine

12th Mar 2015, 13:20

I think we are reaching the limit of how far this can go. Or at least I hope it can't, because it's totally :mad: It will go a lot further, just look at all those low cost airlines out there! Pilots who sheepishly take less and less fuel, working more and more nto discretion, reducing more and more rest, naively thinking "it will make a difference" only to be rewarded with the next round of cost savings and bonuses for the management. :ugh:

RexBanner, you have a point in that salaries are decreasing across the board, not just in aviation. The big issue again is not so much the reduction in pay, but more the overall reduction in quality of life, the fatigue, the jet lag, the dry air, the radiation and possible aerotoxic side-effects on your body. Office people might indeed also get less pay, but at least they can have a life and enjoy the small things in life that don't necessarily cost a lot of money, like joining a dance class, a yoga class, play football, attend a birthday party, go to a PTA meeting or meet friends.

How on earth do they (management) want us to settle down, when they constantly threaten us with outsourcing and/or base closures, leaving us not much choice other than staying flexible and/or voting with our feet? I see a lot of colleagues that have fallen into this same trap, and I also see a lot of extremely exhausted colleagues who have not fallen into that trap but pay dearly for it by having to commute with impossible rosters.

ShotOne summed it up perfectly: "...that situation has arisen, at least in part, because of people like you who treat aviation as a hobby and are prepared to occupy a professional pilot's seat for the "privilege of getting airborne."

Too many amateurs with no life and no friends treating it as a hobby, afraid to take 2 kilos of extra fuel, afraid to refuse to go into discretion, afraid to be critical of management, head buried deep in the sand ignoring any inconvenient truths as long as they can walk around in that cool uniform and as long as they think that their status as a pilot can fill that huge void that's called: life.

JaxofMarlow

12th Mar 2015, 13:36

Lots of good posts on this thread.

Tank2Engine …."How on earth do they (management) want us to settle down, when they constantly threaten us with outsourcing and/or base closures, leaving us not much choice other than staying flexible and/or voting with our feet?"

Voting with your feet is not encouraged because of the seniority systems that we hang on to. Going to the bottom of the pile in terms of upgrade and salary renders walking out (unless you leave altogether) not an option. One of the reasons so few if any Mon FOs have gone to UK competitors.

Tank2Engine

12th Mar 2015, 13:50

Voting with your feet is not encouraged because of the seniority systems that we hang on to. Going to the bottom of the pile in terms of upgrade and salary renders walking out (unless you leave altogether) not an option. One of the reasons so few if any Mon FOs have gone to UK competitors. Yes I know, I was just illustrating the catch 22 situation many of us are in. When management is turning on the thumb screws then voting with our feet has serious consequences for as far as social life and career progression are concerned, but staying can have even greater consequences for as far as fatigue, lifestyle and salary are concerned.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, and with that in mind I completely understand why some people have had more enough of this industry. :mad: :yuk:

Money, prestige and the occasional take off and landing are not everything in life, and you can also get your adrenaline or aviation kick from riding your motorbike, flying a glider (cheap!) or going for a weekend of rock climbing with friends.

CCA

12th Mar 2015, 15:32

Search of economic business studies regarding employee retention.

If you think carefully about the various factors that cause an employee to leave their current employer, it is quite easy to see that you two categories: push factors and pull factors.

Pull factors are those reasons that attract the person to a new place of work. So in this category we would have the likes of a better paying job, a career advancement opportunity that they wouldn't have got in the short term had they stayed with their present employer, and so on.

Push factors are aspects that drive the employee towards the exit door. They make the person want to leave, make them start thinking about other options, about talking to recruiters, looking at the job ads in the paper, on the internet etc. In some instances employees will even go so far as to leave without a new job lined-up.

You just have to accept that pull factors are going to exist. From time to time competitors will make offers to some of your employees that you simply cannot match. Job opportunities will arise that are so attractive that the employee is almost certain to leave.

Seniority destroys pull factors, airline employers have no doubt studied push and pull factors at university and probably laugh their heads off talking about it with their chums!

If you think about it we have PUSH (out of current work) and seniority means PUSH BACK from any potential new employer FFS!

Anyone fancy a study regarding PUSH PULL factors in the pilot workforce, perhaps the beginning of self regulation mentioned earlier.

SSOGL

12th Mar 2015, 15:47

Hello all,

I just thought Id add my input. My post isn't a direct reply to anybody but more so and hopefully a touch of inspiration.

Firstly in life id like to think there is no right or wrong when it comes to your personal situations, only what you feel is right for you as an individual.

I fly, Im a 1600 hour pilot (not a lot of hours in 9 years) on the brink of first command. But its taken me 9 years to get here since obtaining my CPL/IR.

Like many before, many now and many after, being a pilot was all I wanted. Literally. I have not been lucky or as prudent enough as others to have been able to obtain another skill or have a previous career that I could potentially fall back on if this all failed me. To that I have to make my flying work. But i'm not bound by that. It will work because its what I wanted to do. It will work because its still what I want to do now.

Granted I have not been around the industry as long as some who have seen many changes. But when I qualified in 2005 it was a great time as a 'newby' to get into the industry. I landed my first job flying business jets 1 month before graduation from the flight school. I've flown business jets ever since.
I've never been part of an airline or airline setup and I would never criticise any aspect of it as I simply haven't done it. I can only offer you my experience.

I started flying business jets because that's what came calling first and I have just stuck with it ever since. Not because I had the luxury to choose between G/A or airlines.

The business jet world is as unstable as the Andreas Fault line (i'm not plugging the new movie). I have been a victim of its instability.I was out of flying for 2 years because of a company folding on the front of the economic downturn.

2 years. It was long, it was drawn, it was pretty much hell. A 700 hour pilot feeling like there was nothing to show for the efforts. But I still wanted to fly. Even after two years. I just never gave up. Ok circumstance was a lot different then, I didn't have a family of my own compared to now and perhaps if I found myself out of flying for a lengthy period again, I'm sure Id be in a different job to feed the family.

I liken my flying as a career to perhaps a lad who manged to fulfill his dream of become a footballer. Getting paid to do what you love. There is no difference. I don't want to upset anybody or belittle what has been said before, but id like to think we didn't sign up to lie on a beach for 4 days but that we signed up for the love of flying the aircraft. I mean we don't sign up for any other job for the amount of coffee breaks or smoking breaks we get.

By business jet standards what I fly may be seen as being small and almost a toy and to that the extra bits that come with the territory such as being on your hands and knees in uniform in +30 degrees cleaning the cabin before the next departure, or at times doing and filing your own flight plans (i guess 'muckin' in is a good term) may seem like 'scratch of the head' stuff. But again, I wouldn't change it. You see there's taking a look over the other side of the fence and wondering perhaps what airline flying would be like or even another operator in GA, but nothing compares to that 2 year lull I had. I'd take the cleaning of the cabin toilet and putting you're own oil in down route over that lull any day of the week.

As mentioned before I am now on the verge of my first command. I get to lie on the beach for a few days sometimes and I'm based in my home country where all my family are. Yep there's always that unsure-ness waiting around the corner but i know if you don't give up and find the angles things will always work if that's what you want.

If you've genuinely fallen out of love with something in life then for sure its time to move on...... and let me just state that in my opinion there's nothing that should come before your family or health, so yes there are times when decisions have to be made.

As a guy in his thirties who was 22 when he qualified and started flying jets, I look up to the older fellas. I take something from everyone who is older than me and been around the industry longer than me. I form an opinion on my own path based on segments from each person. There is never the ideal job in life and sometimes its the people you come across that make the job just as worth while. You all sound like good chaps who will do the right thing, but just know that there are people coming through the ranks now who would tear a limb off to be you or to be in your position. The same people that probably look up to you.

I hope it all works out whatever you decide.

Thanks in advance for reading.

PilotsOfTheCaribbean

12th Mar 2015, 17:25

I have been doing this for nearly 40 years and it is really quite simple.

It is all about glamour!

All this BS you read about..."I do it for the love of flying....." :yuk:

Whether you love flying or loathe it, the motivation for being a "real live Airline pilot" was always about the glamour. I rode a fantastic career that was the last big surf wave from the 1970's through to today. The job of an airline pilot in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's held a certain mystique and cachet. It was a vocation that automatically garnered respect, a sense of adventure, travel to exotic locations, good remuneration at the top tiers, and a transformation from being the skinny kid in the Charles Atlas adverts to somebody that even old Charley himself would look up to with admiration and envy.

From an aspirational standpoint, it was the job that ex-military pilots sought to pad out and feather their post service years. Let the good times roll! Even though (even in those days) it was often routine and ordinary, that was never the public perception. Never the perception your neighbours had, and remained one of the dream jobs of every schoolboy (times have changed!)

The last decade of the Twentieth century and certainly the first two decades of this one brought with it a number of sea changes. Firstly the mystique was stripped away. The Royal family made this mistake when some of the younger members decide to become more accessible to the people. Once the mystique was gone, everybody then wondered why they were holding these people in such awe. In our case we did it to ourselves. As we proudly showed anyone with even a passing interest just how we could fly a 150 ton jet with only our little finger, those same people did begin to wonder just how difficult this really was, and why we were being paid so much to do it.

The Nineties brought an accelerating growth in travel for the masses. Peoples Express, Laker, and others, cemented the perception in the public psyche that this was simply an aerial bus service. Turn up with £99 or $199 and the world was your oyster as long as you didn't plan on eating oysters as part of the service provided. Then as the new millennium drew close, so came the concept of the "lo-Co's." In the USA and Europe the concept of short haul travel for the price of a pair of Levi's. Ambitious "Shock-Jock" and media savvy CEO's who had no problem using TV reality shows to promote a business idea that had an eager and hungry ready market. The "I only fly British Airways" brigade, could assuage any potential embarrassment at dinner parties by openly bragging of their trophy achievement of flying to Rome for only £19.95. Coupled with the huge market of those who couldn't care less as long as the price was right, and the writing was on the wall in letters Twelve feet high! If glamour was firmly out of fashion for the customer, it wouldn't be long before it wasn't going to be in evidence on the other side of the flight deck door.

It all started innocently enough. A new "low cost" (whatever that really meant) Irish airline offering jobs on a small fleet of old 737's and BAC 111's. Earn a hundred grand and sleep in your own bed every night said the ad's. What wasn't there to like for those made redundant from the collapse of Dan-Air, Air Europe, Laker, et al? Send fifty quid to have your CV read was maybe a little tacky, but we could live with it. Then came the "shock" pronouncements from the new generation of celebrity CEO's. Outrageous (often purely entertainment) press conferences where, planes would fly with one pilot or no toilets, or standing room only, but underlying it would be the suggestion that it was to champion the consumers insatiable demand for ever cheaper flights.

The infomercial/reality TV programmes became long running (and very popular) soap operas that stripped away the last vestiges of mystique, respect, kudos, and glamour that had ever been inherent in the job of the Airline pilot. Together with a world that now had a camera (phone) in every pocket, the job was stripped naked, and laid bare for everybody to see.

Then came the economic realities of the same period. CEO's became the new celebrity capitalists. The new mystique, kudos, respect and glamour, shifted firmly into the ostentatious displays of huge wealth that were often portrayed in the media. The rewards and glamour were concentrated in the pockets of those that controlled the businesses.

Despite these realities, there was still a solid belief in the minds of many would be pilots, that it was all temporary and would go away eventually. We would turn the clock back to the Sixties and the perceived glamour of the job would return. Our neighbours would envy us and the public would respect our every utterance. It was delusional. The world had changed for ever. It would and will continue to change, but that particular genie is never again going to return to the bottle!

As with any boom, it all got somehow easier, and there was a massive rush to become a part of something that was simply becoming extinct. As the licensing requirements all appeared to get easier and easier, so thousands and thousands of new hopefuls flocked to the temple. For most it proved a bitter disappointment. For the successful minority, the new realities often failed to mesh with the perceived expectations. For those further up the beach, it took longer for the tide to reach them, but reach them it did!

The idea of regulation is nonsense. That idea died in the Nineties! The public (and the politicians elected by them,) have absolutely no appetite for anything seen as restrictive and anti-competitive. The job has changed, and in many respects it has changed forever. The glamour is just too embarrassing for most to admit, but it is and always was the primary driver for this job. It is what made it every schoolboys dream.

I will always consider myself supremely lucky to have had the chance to ride that wave. Now the wave has broken on the shore and the sea is very calm (and not particularly warm or blue!) Oh well!

9gZwqTaLB4Y

Easy Glider

12th Mar 2015, 18:19

I think that is probably the most accurate post I have ever read on here!!

Don Gato

12th Mar 2015, 19:28

The obivous. There's no right or wrong. It's purely individual and relates to the circumstances and the proirities that each of us have. To add to your decission making there is a question that I think you should ask yourself. Can you imagine how life would be working in something that you don't like? Do you know the feeling after a day at work when you arrive at home and feel that you have spent your day doing something meaningless to you? Do you know the feeling after some time of working just for money and "comfort"? How about the routine and being all day in an office? Is that for you?

I agree. Life as an airline pilot is not easy. It is VERY demanding. Sometimes, when I am faigued, I myself even think of doing something else, but then I remember how life was for more than fifteen years while working at something I did not like. And I conlude that without a doubt I'd rather get back home feeling tired but happy after doing something I like and that is meaningfull to me than getting back feeling bored and empty after a day at work that serves only for "comfort". That boring comfort was unbearable. That has been my personal experience, anyhow. As most of us here I have loved aviation since I was a kid. It took a lot of effort to make that dream come true and not many people have the privilege of being able to say "I did it".

Mr Angry from Purley

14th Mar 2015, 17:00

REX
To compare it to driving an HGV is displaying stunning ignorance of the highest degree. In really weather in a lorry you can step on the brake and pull over. In an aircraft you are committed to seeing it through to the bitter end (in an environment that is far more complex and changeable than the M4) at the same time as ensuring the safety of hundreds of souls on board with extremely litigious families. Burning human flesh leaves a slightly larger imprint on the mind and the conscience than a supply of IKEA furniture.

Likewise the lorry driver is unable to rely on automatics, ATC, complex aircraft automatics, 2 crew when it all goes wrong. There is an average of 8 people killed daily in road traffic accidents, 4 where sleepiness was a factor.
Where is more risk?

XOLLOB

Sounds extreme, but unfortunately I think it won't be long before a UK hull loss occurs, like colgan, only then will things maybe change.

Go there if you want but was there a suggestion that the crewmembers contributed, the C Word (commuting) caused the sleepiness, financial pressure (if they got off at base it was there cost to provide the room, whereas in Buffalo there was a paid room waiting for them)

Blantoon

14th Mar 2015, 19:29

What a load of cobblers.

An HGV driver is a fine profession but nobody would seriously put their skills and responsibilities on par with an airline pilot. I assume, to give you credit, that you're playing devils advocate for the sake of argument and you don't seriously hold that ridiculous position.

RexBanner

14th Mar 2015, 20:02

Couldn't have put it more diplomatically myself, Blantoon. Which is why I deleted my original response.

Mr Angry from Purley

14th Mar 2015, 20:48

Not comparing skills just pointing to Rex it's not just a load of ikea involved when lorry drivers get it wrong ,

Cliff Secord

15th Mar 2015, 00:12

What a crazy angle. A bloke paid to hump bricks up onto a roof may not just rack off Ikea if he drops his hod of bricks onto the deck. It maybe a freak accident that wipes out 4 people below, maybe more than a truck crashing. Yet this guy as a labourer is paid X. The guy who sells hamburgers at a fair could be under cooking the things and yet give food poising to tens of people who ate them, possibly death (it's happened!).

You don't just justify wages on what destruction you could cause. On your basis, loadmasters should be on the same as pilots given the destruction they could cause through a mistake, but they aren't. And a lot have flown/are flying around having been up 2 damn days on the trot, being paid on peanuts.

Metro man

15th Mar 2015, 01:07

You don't just justify wages on what destruction you could cause.

Our management used the example of water supply controllers and how much damage they could do if they messed up the chemicals.

Mach E Avelli

15th Mar 2015, 04:28

This thread has really drifted away from the OP, which was about whether or not to leave the industry.
But seeing as we are on to what we should be paid, it's simple enough.
The laws of supply and demand dictate all. In determining 'supply' it is a given that the more difficult a job, or the less pleasant a job, the fewer people can or will do it.
We can carry on all we like about how 'hard' it is to become a pilot, or how 'responsible' a job it is. But the truth is it only takes average intelligence to learn to fly a modern jet, and the work itself may be tedious or tiring to some, but is not particularly onerous. Being a plumber would be a whole lot worse. The pay-to-fly brigade have that much worked out. To them it beats the hell out of working for a living.
As for being responsible, I never worried too much about the people down the back. My sense of self preservation automatically took care of their safety, and I suspect that most pilots think much the same, if only they would admit it.
The best example I can think of to prove the supply and demand case is when one has a toothache.
Ever tried to get a discount from a dentist?

Tourist

15th Mar 2015, 06:17

The Prime Minister gets less pay than many headmasters despite the fact he can wipe out millions with the push of a button......

Train drivers carry many more passengers than plane drivers.

What an extraordinarily asinine way to try to judge worth.

Supply vs demand is the only metric worth looking at

ShotOne

15th Mar 2015, 08:46

I know there's no shortage of haters eager to denigrate our profession but I can't believe this idiotic debate is happening on a terms and conditions forum for professional pilots

STN Ramp Rat

15th Mar 2015, 09:00

I have no dog in this fight and I am not a pilot but I have done some simple maths, based on an average job in the South East of England with a one hour commute to work each way.

hours worked

52 weeks X 40 hours is 2080 hours
5 weeks leave a year is 200 hours
7 bank holidays is 56 hours
total hours working in the year 1824 hours (assuming no O/T)
the commute to/from work adds 2 Hrs. per day for 228 days totalling 456 hours

total time away from home 2280 hours per year.

number of days worked

52 weeks at 5 days 260 days
5 weeks leave 25 days
less seven public holidays 7 days

total days worked 228 days per year.

most people earn less than £40K per year and have to pay full PAYE and NI contributions deducted at source. On the positives you do get weekends off, you do get to go to work at normal times (with the rest of humanity).

the grass always appears greener and for some people it sometimes is.

Heathrow Harry

15th Mar 2015, 10:11

AVERAGE income in the UK is £26500 and that includes the SUPER Rich

MEDIAN income is £ 21000

Mach E Avelli has it in one - it's supply and demand that sets pay these days

Quite a lot of people have a romantic view of being a pilot and TBH it isn't that bad - reasonably pleasant working environment, no manual labour, working in small groups, no managment sitting in the corner watching you 24/7

Job security has gone for a Burton but then it has for most of everyone else in the UK, the hours are pretty anti-social but you get decent amounts of timeoff (admittedly on a strange pattern cp every other job)

The main driver for going or staying has to be job satisfaction - if you like the work stay, if you don't or you fancy something different go - but don't sit around moaning about it either way

RAT 5

15th Mar 2015, 16:59

no managment sitting in the corner watching you 24/7

Be very careful with such an opinion. It is far worse than you can imagine.

BenThere

15th Mar 2015, 21:39

An aspect I think is important is that if you're a passenger, you don't want a minimum wage pilot up front. You want a pro.

And if the pilots, especially in the right seat, are struggling and maybe even starving as they pay the dues of building log book and command time, and may be questioning whether its worth it, they may also be questioning the expenditure of time and conscientiousness that it takes to be competent. That's a danger.

Although I'm not at the very top of the heap, flying a domestic narrow body for a US major, I consider my job to be a plum worth protecting, and my compensation is fair for what I do. I protect that job by being as professional and astute as I can be every time I sit in the cockpit. Passengers may or may not perceive the reward of flying on an airplane with a crew that worked and sacrificed to get where they are, or be willing to pay a little extra for it, but I do, and am.

Tourist

16th Mar 2015, 07:45

Benthere

How hard one worked and how much one sacrificed and how long one worked for are frankly stupid metrics.

We should be paid on how good we are.

The worst pilot is the one who had to work to get his licence. I'd rather fly with the guy who finds it easy.

UK flier

16th Mar 2015, 08:28

Worked for more than 20 years in the business and finished as a B744 pilot. Went through one bankruptcy, and one restructuring. Totally fed up after this and decided to pull the handle. Not easy to do but did an MBA in London and moved into business.

Luckily I was able to move into a company through my network. The meritocracy system needs getting used to but in all honesty it is much better than the seniority system, which is totally outdated and very costly to all of us in the end.

Haven't looked back since and not missing the flying at all. But in all fairness the move is not easy and you need to have a viable plan how to approach this.

Aviation is ok when you are young and haven't got a family back home. But the industry is economically rotten to the core and will get worse. If you have a viable plan, pull the handle.

Superpilot

16th Mar 2015, 09:55

I think this thread can be summed up by saying we now have a generation of very tired pilot who is both physically and mentally unable to sustain 4-sector days more than 3-4 times per week (a phenomen brought about by the low cost sector). The airline industry, like most, wants maximum output from it's workforce but the specific demands are at odds with the basic nature of the aging human being.

Consider a typical office job where you have been in the same company for 10-15 years. You're likely to be in a senior role overseeing and managing a team of workers. You would be expected to be far less hands on than you were a decade ago. It's not the same for pilots, the expectation is that regardless of seniority and physical age you will need to perform the exact same duties you did when you started off, and according to the same frequency. This was OK in the halcyon days of 2 or 3 sector flying but not now.

The industry has no interest in addressing the issue of long term pilot career sustainability. It does not need to fear that it's senior workforce will be seeking a way out well before retirement age. The supply vs. demand situation is in their favour, hence why the low cost sector focusses almost exclusively on cadet pilot recruitment. The irony is that some of you who have come through this very system are now finding the career unsustainable. A younger, cheaper workforce will take care of everything whilst driving average salaries down. All this time, the senior pilot workforce will sit fat, dumb and happy ignoring the not-so-very-blatant ageism that has been going on now for nearly a decade.