BBC Series - Fighter Pilots

[si.]

I've spent the last few evenings watching the above series on YouTube, and throughly enjoyed doing so. I recognised Martin Withers as a QFI, and kept my eye open for Courtney, believing he'd be at Linton & Valley around that time. I flew with a former Linton instructor, whilst he commanded No 11 AEF after retiring from regular service, but didn't see him.

My question is, did anyone from this forum appear in the series?

[chinook240]

If you watch the parade ground scene at OCTU, you can see me sweeping the square. My cse were the support Sqn for the graduation, however, I believe the grad ball scenes used in the documentary were of our grad.

[betty swallox]

I think you'll find.... The series was called "Fighter Pilot". Not "s".

Made me join the RAF!!

[TynLlan]

I also appeared in the same scenes. The BBC camera crews were on a work to rule so did not film parade preparation or the Graduation Dinner that was Blue Sqn instead of Red that was being filmed the rest of the time. I also followed the course through Valley

[Skeleton]

Knew JM when he was on Buccs at Lossie, :) Good guy who would not suffer fools but earned respect because of the way he went about dealing with them.

Still a pilot who threw his maps on the floor but i guess that kept me in a living picking them up :) One particularly nasty individual (a rarity thankfully) did walk to his Jaguar with just that, the scraps of his maps off the floor, having berated me for not having the OS map he required immediately to hand, moral do not leave your maps lying about. Formation leader knew and approved - Happy days :)

[Courtney Mil]

Si, I'd left Linton before they filmed this. Actually rather glad the film crews weren't around in my time there. I'd have had to spend too much time combing hair, keeping large watch in plain view and wearing aviator shades. Id rather look good than be good!

[sycamore]

C-M...you might want to rephrase your last sentence...or maybe not....

[Lima Juliet]

This series almost made me not apply to join - thought the odds were too long! Still, when I did go through the Officers' & Aircrew Selection Centre at RAF Biggin Hill successfully, I did attribute this series to my success in part - forewarned is forearmed!

Watched it again last night. The only difference I could see was the long hair and flares plus the Candidates' Club had a Star Wars gane machine in it!

LJ

[si.]

I don't think too much had changed when I went through OASC, there was still a tatty space invaders machine for 'entertainment'. :rolleyes:

TV documentaries rarely reflect to full story, but this was very good viewing.

[thing]

The guy who taught me to fly was an instructor from around that time. Watching the series I see where his sympathetic manner and gentle training technique come from...:)

[Martin the Martian]

Watched the first episode of this last night. Would be interesting to know how different the OASC course is now. Do they still call it OASC?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Another old pilot and myself were on a VR(T) Cadet Force Officer course a few years ago, and part of a morning was at the testing centre. The physical and mental testing are similar, except that the machines are computerised (our generation's electro-mechanical machines were in a mini museum section! (which cued a joke from a PE teacher on how we should have been also).
We did a few of the tests. The two pilots passed (still got it!) and everyone else failed - including the PE teacher (dismally). We just smiled; he didn't. ;)

The leadership exercises looked similar, except they are clearly a lot safer - physical strength and agility are less helpful now.

[rolling20]

It was first shown as I was digesting the bumpf I had received on the UAS in the post. When I applied to join some weeks later, I knew what to expect and wasn't disappointed! I have it on DVD and can watch it through from start to finish if the mood takes me.
It is a pity they didn't do a follow up on the main characters some years later. I understand one of the guys was planning a book on the series, 'to put the record straight'. It has been mentioned on here before.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

There is a paper presented in 1999 by the Brits to the Yanks on the evolution of RAF pilot aptitude testing here:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p010369.pdf

It's only 6 pages,and describes the underlying philosophies as well as the changes.

Looks like we're the same generation rolling20. I did my Cadetship selection in May 1981 and likewise found the series extremely useful. I later flew with one of the main characters who had re-roled as a nav.

[rolling20]

You would be correct there Fox. Gave an 18 year old a fascinating insight into service life. Happy times when I look back :)

[stationcalling]

Well, I've been watching all these posts about "Fighter Pilot" for some time now and unfortunately, I might give away my Pprune name by clarifying a few issues.
I was very much involved with the series at Linton, my old Sqn Cdr from Canberra days was the RAF liaison officer who accompanied the BBC team throughout. This led to some early stacks for me and numerous visits to local hostelries!
One of my students, who was filmed, was not destined for fast jets and we both realised this at an early stage in his training. He did however become an experienced Hercules Captain.
CFS, in their infinite wisdom, apparently used some of my airborne comments, (taken out of context I might add) to show how "not" to train students.
The producer, Colin Strong, wanted to "feel" the pressure the students were under, so it was decided to give him 14 hours dual training, (the amount all students would get to first solo).
Unfortunately, unlike the RAF students who had a PPL or had completed 30 hours previous flying experience, Colin's only flying experience was as a passenger in a B-747!
He went solo on a Jet Provost on Exercise 14 at Elvington. I was that QFI!

[JointShiteFighter]

I'd have had to spend too much time combing hair, keeping large watch in plain view and wearing aviator shades. Id rather look good than be good!

Isn't that what you all do anyway when you aren't flying? :cool:

[Courtney Mil]

The resurrection of this thread brings an answer to something I've been wondering about for a while. "Where's Fox3 been?" Now I see he's been banned. Seems a bit odd; not the sort of guy to do anything inflammatory. Anyone know what happened. Or aren't we allowed to talk about it?

[overstress]

Isn't that what you all do anyway when you aren't flying?

Some in my current job manage it while flying...

Courtney, I was wondering about Fox3 myself... :sad:

[Wander00]

Fox 3 - not the sort of guy to frighten the horses - what can he have done? Hope he is not unwell, but "banned"

[Wokkafans]

Possibly he may have been a bit too outspoken about some of the choppy choppy types in the ME?

[CoffmanStarter]

Agree with Courtney, OS and Wander ... Fox3 is sorely missed by the regular CapComp Crew :(

[Odanrot]

Remember it all too well, really disrupted day-to-day training and the producer/director was a PITA left-wing pinko.

Most of the Valley Hawk flying was done by the staff, very little was student flying and I spent kin hours at high level looking for trails so he could shoot the opening sequence where the roundel appears with the trailing Hawk.

My a... is still sore.

It had the potential to be a very good programme but the directors personal agenda spoilt it and the RAF and the poor studes he followed suffered as a result. The Navy's version, Warship was much better.

[ExRAFRadar]

I would like to have seen the chap who wanted to join 'For the glamour' get selected for training.

Would have been fun watching him get through.

[pr00ne]

odanrot,

The "Director/Producer" wrote a book about it, didn't come across as anything like you suggest, or is it that he's just not a foaming at the mouth right wing nut job?

[Ken Scott]

pr00ne: are you implying that anyone who's pro-military has those characteristics?

[Odanrot]

Pr00ne. No he was more the quiet Jeremy Corbyn type. Now that was 3 quid well spent.

[pr00ne]

Odanrot,

A nice guy then.

Ken Scott,

Are you?

[charliegolf]

This thread made me youtube the whole thing earlier. Whining to an airship about leave (and admitting that the leave was a big + in joining) must've gone down well; and well done McCrae- but I wonder how many innocent people slit their wrists due to close contact with him! He smiled once, but it was confirmed subsequently as a bad attack of wind. I bet he got nada on the side when he was a milkie!

CG

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Yes, watched it myself a few months ago.

I flew with one of the instructors in a different life - he played Father Christmas in an episode of 'Airline".

Always had a personal 'bar' available for 'room parties' (much to my cost!!!) :}

[newt]

His comments about preferring to live off base ensured that the AOC ordered them all back to their rooms in the Mess!:ugh:

[wiggy]

well done McCrae- but I wonder how many innocent people slit their wrists due to close contact with him!

:=

I was on the same 6 month long CFS JP course as John and I don't think we lost anyone along the way, even in the bar, even after after a few beers. It was very interesting hearing his stories of how exactly some of those scenes (especially the one about leave and the one about living off base) were manufactured.... if the production team deliberately pee people off for long enough, especially on a Friday night and keep the cameras rolling they'll get some stuff worth using.......

I bet he got nada on the side when he was a milkie!

Goes to show JM was right when he said to me one point "funny how everyone remembers I was a milkman, no-one remembers I'm a graduate....."

[charliegolf]

no-one remembers I'm a graduate....."

Was that even mentioned?

CG

[ExRAFRadar]

As an aside if I recall correctly you 'only' needed 5 O levels back in the day to be able to apply for Pilot.

Am I correct?

Would 5 GCSE's get me in now if so? :)

Back on topic, sort of, getting a degree and then going to work as a milkman hardly stamps you as someone dying to fly fast jets does it?

And I fully expect flak for that sentence.

[ExRAFRadar]

And this is probably been covered before but cannot be bothered to search. Sorry.

Was there any pressure from the Higher-Up's to get someone on FJ's from the Officers that were filmed just to show the RAF in a good light?

[SpannerInTheWerks]

The man I'm talking about was slated for giving the worst instruction during one of the approaches?!

Great bloke in my experience!

:)

[Odanrot]

As an aside if I recall correctly you 'only' needed 5 O levels back in the day to be able to apply for Pilot.

Am I correct?

Would 5 GCSE's get me in now if so?

Back on topic, sort of, getting a degree and then going to work as a milkman hardly stamps you as someone dying to fly fast jets does it?

And I fully expect flak for that sentence.

One of the best pilots I met was a "Sheet Metal Worker" before he joined up.

[Onceapilot]

Hmmm, I think the series shows, pretty much, the way it was. Good and bad.
Some good filming. And, yes I did go through it myself at the time!:p:p

OAP

[BEagle]

I encountered the BBC luvvies and that 'Director/Producer' at Valley when I was doing a Hawk refresher course.

The Director/Producer came across as a typical BBC pinko, but not as loathsome as pr00ne's fellow traveller Comrade Corbychev.....:yuk:

[Lima Juliet]

Derr...

As an aside if I recall correctly you 'only' needed 5 O levels back in the day to be able to apply for Pilot.

Am I correct?

Would 5 GCSE's get me in now if so?


Nope, thanks to Nu Liabor's "everyones' a winner" education system then only A-levels will crack it.

LJ

[Mach Two]

There was a time when 5 Os would have done it.

[1.3VStall]

M2 - and that was the problem that has led us to where we are.

Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force.

And that's where the RAF is: fecked'

[Chris Scott]

Yes: 5 O-Levels, including Maths, English and a science subject, IIRC.

Reading this thread has reminded me that earlier this year I failed to notice the demi-centenary :eek: of my appearance at OASC. Judging from the Fighter Pilot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCrY4Frdgn8) video, little can have changed in the following 14 years. That includes the naivety of the majority of the candidates, myself included! No doubt today's handful of hopefuls are far better briefed, if not more worldly wise, than we were. :cool:

[wiggy]

Back on topic, sort of, getting a degree and then going to work as a milkman hardly stamps you as someone dying to fly fast jets does it?

Not sure how you work that out...I thought many of us old pharts had filler jobs at one stage or an other - maybe it's not as common now. I suspect (but can't remember) that JM did the milkman bit briefly either during Uni or whilst waiting for his RAF training to start.

As a kid I was "dying to fly fast jets", and perhaps even be an astronaut :\.......ending up doing one but not the other :(. Hidden in the front end of my CV, along with a Science degree, two fast jet tours and a CFS tag is my summer jobs (pre Uni) of working in a factory making lollipops and picking Blackcurrents...I didn't realise doing such menial work made me unworthy :* ........................

[BBadanov]

Ok wiggy, of working in a factory making lollipops
- or being a milkman...


You know what they say - "it only takes one goat..."

[newt]

It may only have required 5 O-Levels but you could join Direct Entry aged 18 and be on your first squadron aged 20! Would not happen now after years at university and gap years! They must be nearly 30 by the time they reach their first squadron now!:E

[helen-damnation]

Have a mate who's son is 18, joining next year. Possibly on a Sqn at 20?

[ExRAFRadar]

Wiggy said:

Not sure how you work that out

Yeah,not sure what made me write that, dick head thing to say.

I apologise.

You make the grade, you make the grade.

[wiggy]

I apologise

No need, I do understand - the TV series was designed/edited to provoke exactly those sorts of comment.

I don't know if JM posts/visits here, and I haven't seen him in decades so I certainly can't speak for him, but I think the milkman tag became a real and perpetual pain in his **** .

Around 5 plus years after the series was aired and during the very early days of our CFS course we trooped along to a "Meet and Greet" with some of the CFS wheels and their wives. Very first comment one of the "Mrs Wheel's" made to John was something along the lines of: "Ah, so you're the milkman".

Poor b*******.

[StickMonkey3]

Some of us have flown fast jets then become a milkman (briefly!). I thought of John every morning when I fired up the float.

[Ken Scott]

Have a mate who's son is 18, joining next year. Possibly on a Sqn at 20?


Unlikely, with all the holding it's taking around 5 years to get to a Sqn, sometimes more. With the dog's breakfast that is MFTS coming in & its procuring of ac in almost negligible quantities I can't see things getting any faster or more efficient particularly if we wish to increase throughput to man all the extra ac we're 'promised'.

[tlightb]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I didn't see the programme at the time but I was made aware of it when I was working at Barkston Heath at various times in the period 2010-13. JM was a QFI there at the time and I had many an enjoyable break in the crew room with JM discussing past events as only ancient aircrew can. I have looked on U Tube and it certainly brings back memories.

I was a 5 O Level direct entry Nav. In at 17 on the squadron at 19, 3 tours and out after 8 years. I was talking to a young Flt Lt at Coningsby last year and he had been holding there and was just on his was to Valley for the FJ course. I think he said he had been in > 5 years.

I also note I was commissioned at 17; tempus fugit.

[Onceapilot]

Well, I have never had O-level maths, made Pilot with CSE grade1 Maths.:ok:

OAP

[Danny42C]

Well, why not a milkman - it's the early bird that catches the worm !

And do not forget:

♫...Ernie, the fastest milkman in the west...♫

Good training for a FJ.

D.

[Wensleydale]

Perhaps they should have made the milkman into a Creamie?

[Pontius Navigator]

Holds are not all bad. Think why there are holds.

The system predicts, not too accurately, the number of trained bods required on the front line. The establishment for the OCUs is based on intake, expected wash out to give the right output.

Now if the board at OASC gets a higher than norm success in good recruits who pass IOT with less than the normal failure rate, who then pass the flying training it is inevitable that there will be a holdup somewhere in the system.

Decades ago the output of 2 ANS exceeded the capacity of 1 ANS to cope. On our course of 18, 16 were back coursed after the first 4 weeks. The course ahead of us similarly 'lost' 14 back to our original course and so on.

Holds may be frustrating but they do suggest superior selection and instruction provided the washout rate in OCUs does not rise.

[Ken Scott]

PN: I don't believe our holds are caused by an excess of quality pilots passing but are bottlenecks resulting from aircraft unserviceabilities (such as Tutor props falling off). The flying training system can't cope so trainees sit around idle waiting for a slot.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ken, I said The system predicts, not too accurately, the number of trained bods required on the front line.

To some extent aircraft availability is part of that equation. Holds have been a feature far longer than Tutors. Late entry of aircraft in to Service is another.

[Ken Scott]

The 'system' also made 120 pilots, some already with their wings, across the whole of FT redundant then a few years later invited them to come back in as the RAF needed them. Rather amazingly after such a lesson in loyalty a few accepted. I would suggest that the 'system' is even less able to predict its needs than you suggest!

('System': aka a group of seemingly otherwise intelligent senior officers who collectively couldn't organise the proverbial high spirited drinks party in a factory for the manufacture of alcoholic beverages).

[Pontius Navigator]

Ken, you know why it happened and you know it was not a military decision.

[Courtney Mil]

The 'system' also made 120 pilots, some already with their wings, across the whole of FT redundant then a few years later invited them to come back in as the RAF needed them. Rather amazingly after such a lesson in loyalty a few accepted. I would suggest that the 'system' is even less able to predict its needs than you suggest!

You may recall that the training system was already struggling with asset availability and some very difficult "pipeline" issues at that time. More importantly, this followed SDSR. Just from the fast jet perspective, the entire Harrier Force had recently been axed, the Tornado Force was reduced and the Typhoon buy stalled. The backlog would have been unsustainable.

Happy to explain further if it would help.

[Finningley Boy]

Pr00ne. No he was more the quiet Jeremy Corbyn type. Now that was 3 quid well spent.

Odanrot,

I wouldn't court providence over your 3 sheckels just yet, all you've done thus far is help Groucho Marx (I just can't think of him any other way after his turn out in that ill-fitting garb at the state munch the other night) along one more step to becoming Prime Minister and.... who knows, perhaps Diane Abbot could end up as Defence Secretary once he's got the keys to No. 10. It could happen, a lesson we should all have hoisted aboard given the curious twists, turns and surprises served up from the Great British electorate recently.

pr00ne,

Jeremy Groucho Corbyn Marx, is the same nice person who described those who from H.M. Forces participated in the Falklands War as 'unemployed men' at the time. Whatever your mindset regarding warfare and the justification for it on each occasion, this was a most telling comment from a man who presumes to accept the office, one day, which accepts the defence and security of the United Kingdom and its citizens/subjects at home and abroad as the first duty. It will be interesting to see if he feels it appropriate to rely on any number of 'unemployed men' in order to maintain this.

FB:)

[Bladdered]

On a Sqn by age 20 - you have to be joking of course. Son of a friend has spent the last 5 years, holding, flying training, holding, Valley, holding, holding, scuba diving, climbing, yachting, leave, holding, waiting to go to Sqn only now! Already planning BA application!

[Fluffy Bunny]

Already planning BA application? Thought that was the norm now before even going to the careers office.
Sign your life away for 12 years hence and a couple of thousand flying hours to either BA or Beardy Branson. They get semi trained starboard observers and you get a half pension and a job post RAF without having to lift a finger.

[charliegolf]

Already planning BA application? Thought that was the norm now before even going to the careers office.
Sign your life away for 12 years hence and a couple of thousand flying hours to either BA or Beardy Branson. They get semi trained starboard observers and you get a half pension and a job post RAF without having to lift a finger.

RAF take on that:

Already planning to cut them loose after 12 years with nothing but a preserved pension? That's our plan isn't it? After all, we don't really have the resources or the leadership to offer 'careers' any more, do we? We'll save a tonne of dosh on lower pensions which the boys and girls can top up with Serco or the airlines. Hardly need to lift a finger. Result! Wars- oh we can manage the odd skirmish- the Airships assure us we can.

CG:ok:

[Dougie M]

Tlightb
Whatever happened to "1st choice, Astronaut, Stockton-On-Tees"

[tlightb]

Brilliant memory D. It was actually Stoke-on-Trent. Didn't make it, went to work in New York instead.

[Dominator2]

1.3V Stall,

Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force.

And that's where the RAF is: fecked'


I think that you will find out if you look through the records that many of those with 5 O levels went on to become Exceptional Aviators. It was left to those who went to Sleaford Tech and did minimal flying go on become the leaders of the 90s, 00s and 10s.

Very few Direct Entrants ever had aspirations to become Air Ranked Officers. Most would have been content to become a Squadron Commander and/or leave for pastures new.

[Odanrot]

Finningly Boy.

Firstly, I obviously have more confidence in the British electorate than do you, although probably not much. Secondly, rather than putting JC in No 10 and totally destroying the whole country, we may have prevented one of the other clowns standing for the leadership creeping in if DC and his mates screw up, which they undoubtedly will.

Dominator 2.

Spot on! I was DE with the required "5" then got PC on promotion, climbed well up the greasy pole, banked 5000 hrs (not 1 in an aeroplane with either a toilet or cooker) and left for pastures new with a reasonable pension and my integrity intact.

[Wander00]

SamXXV - how "south", how "west"?

[Ken Scott]

Courtenay: that the training system was struggling for capacity is indicative of how it has been run down in recent years. That too many pilots, many of who were close to completing their lengthy & expensive training, were let go is shown by there being insufficient to man current & planned fleets let alone if there is a P8 buy in SDSR. There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained, are now manned mostly by a (small) number of FTRS instructors. This will only get worse once MFTS comes in. It can't all be blamed on the last SDSR & politicians.

[BEagle]

Ken Scott, much as I predicted 12 years ago....:ugh:

And who will replace the ageing FTRS UAS QFIs......:confused:

Classic short termism - whichever fools were responsible should hang their heads in everlasting shame. But they won't, of course.....:uhoh:

[JointShiteFighter]

Back on topic, sort of, getting a degree and then going to work as a milkman hardly stamps you as someone dying to fly fast jets does it?

And I fully expect flak for that sentence.

At least he was prepared to work any job to pay his way! Which is far better than many graduates who leave and expect a job in the field they studied, because they have a sense of entitlement.

Sorry if that makes me a "foaming at the mouth right-wing type." :(

[ExRAFRadar]

1.3 wrote

M2 - and that was the problem that has led us to where we are.

Five "O" Levels, including Maths and English, and a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination at OASC at the age of 18, was the sole foundation to climb the greasy pole and ultimately run the air force.

And that's where the RAF is: fecked'

Quite possibly the most offensive and arrogant post I have ever read on this forum

Are you saying that he entire RAF training system is based on 'a bit of hand-to-eye co-ordination'?

I've worked with plenty of people with degrees that don't know their arse from their elbow.

[Wensleydale]

"I've worked with plenty of people with degrees that don't know their arse from their elbow."

That's why they gave them their own brevet!

[Courtney Mil]

There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained, are now manned mostly by a (small) number of FTRS instructors. This will only get worse once MFTS comes in.

Indeed, the RAF's traditional QFI nursery is now full of reservists and civvies; we always said this would cause a problem, but who listened?

As for SDSR, no, of course is wasn't the only issue, but it was probably the final straw. Before that, the training system also suffered from various reorganisations that failed to streamline the pipeline. Things became steadily worse as we went from BFTS(s) + AFTS + TWU(s) to Mirror Image to Valley, with some EFTS stuff thrown in. Every change seemed to live up to expectations by progressively degrading a formerly working system.

By around 2005, the PTC guys were working flat out just to keep things moving, but struggling even to break even. Contractorized eng support at Valley was good enough, but lacked the flexibility to allow them to catch up. So things just steadily got worse. They even tried reducing the syllabi, but that just transferred risk to the OCUs (and eventually to the front line) where we could least afford it. The Harrier guys were having serious IPS issues, which were then compounded when the big push came to build up the Typhoon Force; the later delays in that programme meant that the Typhoon OCU had to have the pick of the crop because just one student lost at OCU would have caused the planned stand-up to fail. Politics could not allow that to happen, apparently.

[Ken Scott]

The future for flying training in the RAF (and other services) does indeed look rather bleak. With MFTS presumably intending to employ mostly ex-mil instructors but the RAF not training so many once it no longer has need where will Ascent find its people in the future? If the RAF is going to bolster MFTS with its own QFIs where is the saving from contractorization going to come when Ascent will be utilising our airfields? Paying a third party to lease ac on our behalf cannot be cheaper than leasing them ourselves once profit margin is taken into account.

I'm left with the feeling that the sole purpose of MFTS is to provide SOs with employment once they retire.

When I joined up we prided ourselves that although our equipment might not be as good as the Spams ('all the gear, no idea') our training system & our crews were first class. Whether that was ever true is open to debate but we certainly cannot claim that our training is the best nor will it be under MFTS. I'm not convinced it will even be value for money & once we can no longer provide our own training .....? Perhaps the expectation is that it will all be RPAS by then so we needn't worry but the Duncan Sandys' School of Prophecy has been wrong before.

[Pontius Navigator]

We used to sell training to overseas air forces. Now that a contractor is delivering the training, time to cut out the agent and contract with the contractor directly.

[Brain Potter]

There is also a lack of QFIs at OCU level on the ME fleets because the UASs, which traditionally were where ME QFIs were trained

I am curious about the perception of a requirement for type-conversion staff to be also qualified and experienced in elementary flying instruction. EASA specify separate qualifications for these disciplines (FI and TRI). Whilst there is certainly some common ground in core instructional skills, there are equally many aspects that are not at all similar.

I think most of the audience here have a good grasp of how elementary instruction is delivered, but there are perhaps fewer that appreciate how modern multi-engine pilot conversion is achieved. Students are taught in pairs in a flight simulator; there is no "demo" or "follow-me through" teaching, unless the student does not achieve competence. The on-aircraft training is (or should) be no-more than a validation of skills acquired in the FSTD. A background in elementary flying instruction may well be useful, but isn't a pre-requisite for successful delivery of a type-conversion training.

[Courtney Mil]

I don't think that is the case, Brian. It's just that the FTSs used to be a fantastic source of QFIs for the OCUs and Front Line Sqns. QFIs that had a good background in instruction.

Now, the other side of the coin - you know I can only talk about mil FJ training. When moving to the F-15, I did a 3 month TX (short conversion course) followed by a 3 month instructor upgrade after which I taught ab initio students everything from trip one in the jet to AAR to combat to IF to... You get the idea. And I am not, nor ever have been, a QFI. The system seems to work. The snag for the RAF is that CFS still insists that only QFIs can do certain sorties, but there is no longer the capacity to produce them. So therein lies the problem; a system that requires something that the system can no longer produce in sufficient numbers.

[Ken Scott]

Brian, as Courtenay says CFS mandate that instructors carrying out initial instruction on OCUs should be QFIs although for a long time due to a shortage of CFS trained instructors they have had to use FIs who are locally trained experienced pilots. It is a very valid argument that instructors teaching on a ME type do not need to have a background in EFT as the jobs are quite dissimilar & especially so with the newer fly-by-wire sidestick types where there can be no 'follow me through' stuff, but CFS is the only formal venue the RAF has for instructor training. It is also true that EFT, BFT & AFT are good places to learn instructional skills that transfer across to the OCUs but a QFI also needs to have considerable experience on the ME type before he can instruct on it, I have seen what can happen if someone is rushed into OCU instruction before they are competent on type. FIs generally have that level of experience already even if they lack the instructional training which can be rather sparse & once they get their initial qualification they are rather left to their own devices as there is no specific pathway for improvement unlike within CFS with its B2 - B1 - A2 progression.

We have no equivalent to the civil TRI & FIs are type specific, once you move to a new ac you cease to be an instructor although it's obviously easier to become an FI again on the new type with a previous instructional background. This was what the new QPI qualification was meant to address but that's all rather fallen apart. Some form of TRI type of qualification would be a good thing & recognise the valuable job done by the non-QFIs but it should come with a recognised pathway of developmental training rather than just an annual check of competency by STANEVAL.

We seem to have drifted a long way from the original theme into the territory of the military QFI thread! The second episode of Fighter Pilot was on TV during my first visit to OASC at Biggin Hill although I saw very little of it from my place outside the door so packed was the TV room.

[Courtney Mil]

I've worked with plenty of people with degrees that don't know their arse from their elbow.

Not wishing to detract from the more serious point on your post there, I could not help but think "better than sitting around here on our elbows."

Between leaving the RAF and running away from life to retirement in France, I worked for a number of years at the Open University. As a result of working with some scarily clever people I have to say that I would trust them to build the UK's new nuclear power stations, but I would doubt they could tie their own shoelaces or work out which way to sit on a toilet.

[exuw]

See the current CapComp for an early school photograph of those "scarily clever people". :}

[Danny42C]

Indeed, one of them has trained a blackbird to perch on his nose. :*

[Brain Potter]

I always thought that CFS mandating that the initial flying exercises of the ME OCU be delivered by a QFI was largely indicative of their lack of understanding of this particular training task. They were not really interested that the simulator training (maybe 15 or so 4-hour exercises) was being delivered by a non-QFI, but wanted a QFI for the on-aircraft work. This didn't seem to be based on any analysis of course content, but more on a dogmatic policy that pre-CQT airborne training must be delivered by a QFI. I contend that fails to recognise that the simulator exercises form the core part of the course and instruction delivered at this stage is critical. If QFI experience is really necessary, it is hard to see why it is not also required for the simulator phase.

At best, the CFS policy can be seen as outdated in that it regards the flight simulator as something akin to a cockpit procedures trainer (like the old JPIT), ie an intermediate stage between ground-school and the "serious" part of the course. At worst, it could be seen as being designed to preserve the role of the QFI on the front--line, cleverly limited in scope to numbers that they may actually be able to provide.

Most "RAF Fighter Pilots" will at some stage of their career receive instruction from a TRI, both in a simulator and during a base-training detail, so this is still a relevant discussion!

[BEagle]

In the days before the VC10 OCU was destroyed by meddling careerist thrusters, OCU instructors taught everything - groundschool, simulator, flying and they also did routine squadron checking. Very efficiently. Not many first tourists were posted to the VC10, but the policy for those who were, was that their instructors had to be QFIs, not FIs.

After the OCU had been destroyed, groundschool was taught by whoever was posted there, without any instructional background except the GIT course. Unfortunately, at one point these people also did some of the early simulator training, which meant that by the time we took over for the flying phase, a lot of bad habits and poor training had to be corrected...:uhoh: The system then changed (fortunately), so we then did an integrated simulator and flight training course taught by flying instructors - and certainly didn't use the full motion simulators as glorified procedure trainers...

When I flew with non-'Q'FIs, I found that with some there were large gaps in their theoretical knowledge and even their RT was often out of date - e.g. replying 'Roger' to a clearance. Lots of little things in their instructional manner would have benefited from CFS standardisation. But others were absolutely fine.

When I started instructing at the OCU, many of the Jurassic Park AT QFIs were C-to-I and hadn't been required to renew their CFS cats on the VC10. Apparently that was to avoid friction with the non-'Q'FIs. After some discussion, the AAR Flt Cdr pointed out that there was a requirement for QFIs to hold formal CFS cats after a few months of C-to-I, so the old trucky policy was overturned.

The civil world trains pilots with rather more flying hours under their belt by the time they start their Type Rating courses. They will also have held a CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge and MCC / JOC; their TRTO course will equip them for the minimum level of knowledge and skill necessary to operate in the right hand seat on groundhog day flights, learning their job through osmosis and experience. Hence when things go wrong, you're likely to see an AF447 accident. Whereas the RAF receives pilots with less experience and vastly less theoretical knowledge, but requires them to cope with a much wider range of flying tasks. Thus a 'TRI' wouldn't really suffice, although a TRE could cover annual OPC style checks, I guess.

[Chris Scott]

Quotes from BEagle

"The civil world trains pilots with rather more flying hours under their belt by the time they start their Type Rating courses."
150 hours would be fairly typical. On arrival at first OCU, what would the equivalent RAF figure be?

"their [civil pilots] TRTO course will equip them for the minimum level of knowledge and skill necessary to operate in the right hand seat on groundhog day flights..."
Presume you must be referring to third-world and/or shoestring operators?

"Hence when things go wrong, you're likely to see an AF447 accident."
Sweeping statement, and the problem to which it refers results partly from a level of automation not present in RAF cockpits until the Voyager. Also, RAF transport flights generally do not demand the unruffled experience expected by the fare-paying, travelling public - on which commercial pilots' jobs depend. That is not to say that the airlines must not amend their SOPs to encourage the practising of basic flying skills on the line - subject to safety constraints.

"Whereas the RAF receives pilots with less experience and vastly less theoretical knowledge, but requires them to cope with a much wider range of flying tasks."
Agreed, though not about the theoretical knowledge. I imagine that an RAF pilot arriving at first OCU would have comparable knowledge to that of a civil cadet pilot starting his/her first type conversion.

My experience as a line captain of RAF pilots coming into a mid-sized jet airline as co-pilots from the late 1970s was that their theoretical knowledge and handling skills were high, as were their leadership qualities. Their ability and motivation in adapting to the limitations of the right-hand seat on an airline operation were variable, and not easily predictable. For example, one guy off Lightnings on to the One-Elevens was unassuming, supportive and conscientious in a role that must have seemed pretty tame.

[Ken Scott]

Also, RAF transport flights generally do not demand the unruffled experience expected by the fare-paying, travelling public - on which commercial pilots' jobs depend.

Chris Scott (no relation): really? Do we just wang it around any old how without a thought to our self-loading freight? Many of the civil flights I've flown on recently as a pax have been 'ruffled' to the point of concern particularly the landings, of my last 6 flights only one has been to a standard that I would assess as 'good' on one of the checks I conduct (a BA Capt's by the way). In theatre on ops the pax may have to accept a slightly lower standard of comfort but otherwise we most certainly do pride ourselves on smooth flying even if we don't obsess about 'light chop' & 'any ride reports?' like our civil brethren but then my ac shakes & rattles roughly equivalent to light chop anyway so we tend not to notice it too much. Smooth & 'unruffled' operating is most certainly not the unique preserve of civil airlines.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from me (emphasis added):
"... RAF transport flights generally do not demand the unruffled experience expected by the fare-paying, travelling public - on which commercial pilots' jobs depend."

Quote from Ken Scott:
"Do we just wang it around any old how without a thought to our self-loading freight?"

Well Ken, presumably not, and I wasn't trying to hit a nerve! ;) Am sure the vast majority of all transport pilots take personal pride in the smoothness of their operation, as well as its efficiency.

The point I was trying to make is that at some stage in airlines - probably when digital AFSs and FADECs started to become the norm in the 1990s - airline flight-ops departments (no doubt influenced considerably by the bean counters) started to discourage or, in some cases, ban crews from practising the old skills of manual throttle and "manual" handling (with and without FD).

99% of the time today's automatics do as smooth and efficient a job as the most proficient pilot can in these areas. And they can do it hour after hour. That couldn't have been said for the various jets (including the VC10) I flew in the 1970s and most of the 1980s. So any resistance to the increasing pressure put on us not to interrupt the smooth, fuel-saving automatics was hard to justify.

Those of us who could remember handling big jets with manual thrust on long sectors when the (single) auto-pilot was u/s or hiccupping were well aware that the new generation of pilots - particularly the civil-trained ones - lacked comparable handling experience, and that this policy might be creating problems for the future. But few of us would have predicted what happened on AF447, the most extreme example so far.

[StickMonkey3]

I worked at a large US airline training school in the mid-90's, with a host of very experienced dudes, including ex-USN, USAF and RAF pilots, a DC-10 test pilot, retired airline training captains, etc. I can assure you we all saw the likes of AF447 coming a mile off, but nobody in authority wanted to hear it. The aim became solely that a pilot could reproduce the required actions at the required tests, instead of being able to reproduce them airborne when necessary when things got tricky, which is what the tests were supposed to test.
Then they cut the test requirements too.
Then they just prayed the systems wouldn't fail except in ways that fitted standard drills.
Then they just prayed the systems wouldn't fail at all.

[Ken Scott]

Chris: I'm not convinced that your correct identification of excessive automation in civil aviation justifies your statement that it therefore demands a less ruffled experience for the fare paying passenger. Increasingly the new ME types being procured by the RAF are following the automation trend (Voyager, Atlas etc), even the C130J was designed to fly A to B on strat tasks with the autopilot flying but the difference is that we still put an emphasis on routine training alongside tasks & we don't have to justify to an accountant why we flew a procedure manually for practice when a straight-in ILS would've got us in 5 mins earlier for a 200 kg less fuel burn. Whether that will stay the same into the future if 'civil best practice' gets adopted with enthusiasm as a means to reduce costs & given the ever increasing pressure not to fly around for training at the secret Oxfordshire airbase in case it upsets someone who thought that buying their bargain house next to an airfield was getting something for nothing.

As the Air France accident showed the loss of basic flying skills on the altar of reduced cost & profitability can have consequences. Hopefully the demands of military flying will justify training beyond the bare minimum well into the future.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Ken,

Agreed! What I'm saying is that we in the airlines got it wrong from about the 1990s, due mainly to an obsession with automation-led efficiencies to which the military were not as susceptible. Now that your large transports have similar technology, and the bean counters have taken control, I hope that the RAF will nevertheless resist falling into a similar trap.

[BEagle]

When I went through the VC10 OCU as a student in 1983/4, we were given a sound and very comprehensive groundschool....

Then some new ex-Victor Stn Cdr turned up and dictated that people didn't need to know as much, so ordered the groundschool course to be shortened. Successive reviews chopped more and more out of the course, so that when I came back in 1993, the groundschool course was a bare shadow of its former self. For example, HF radio was dismissed as "It's a radio, you turn it on and dial up the frequency" - nothing at all about day/night propagation, SSB or available networks.....:rolleyes:

We had a student who had done his AFT through the Seneca CPL/IR course at Prestwick as an experiment. In all areas of theoretical knowledge he was streets ahead of his METS colleagues......

[Ken Scott]

Beagle, there is a strong argument in my opinion for putting all METS students through Oxford instead of getting 45 Sqn to teach them basic asymmetric & NDB holding. They could complete all the theory & come out with a frozen ATPL (bonded for x years for the total cost, say £100k) & then go to 45 Sqn for a pre-OCU cse covering LL Nav, formation etc, they could even get streamed & do stuff appropriate to their type (flying in circles for Shadow & E3s etc). This would help to prevent all those people doing their ATPL studies in their early 30s & then PVRing to make use of it as they would only need to wait for their 40/18 point to collect their licence. It would also stop all those questions about training equivalence between mil & civil pilots.

No chance of it happening though as the monster that is MFTS will perpetuate the current system, only teaching asymmetric on a Phenom (is it even noticeable?) will hardly prepare a student for a Shadow let alone an Atlas. More importantly of course, you have to consider the jobs for the VSOs to slide into at Ascent when they retire....

[Onceapilot]

Although I feel that this series was pretty accurate for its time, I think, on reflection, that it really reflects training up to AFTS. After that, the detail is lost. Maybe, the program should have been limited to that point? The later parts are confused and disjointed, IMO.

OAP

[tommee_hawk]

After a focussed beginning, this thread wandered off at Prune speed - thanks for dragging it back.

I was on one of the later courses on 3 Squadron at LOO - we didn't feature on TV but the "famous flap" photo in the book had us posed to look interesting. I think the piranha in the tank in the student crewroom were keener than we were.

After completing my 140 hour LOO course, I joined a nav course at Finningley on the same course as RL - as part of our Officer Training, he arranged a visit to the BBC through Colin Strong. Seemed like a nice chap.

I'm happy to take most of the credit for not making it as pilot, but my abiding memory of my year on 3 Squadron at Linton was of several instructors on my flight whose instructional ability nowhere near matched their egos. I think that was perhaps just a function of system at the time though.

[Arclite01]

Who was RL ??

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