Use of GPS whilst hour building

[BlueJays]

Good afternoon, folks

I appreciate this has probably been asked countless times to a certain degree, but what are your thoughts on the use of a GPS whilst hour building? I still plan all my flights like normal (whizz wheel, plog etc), but it's nice to have the reassurance that you are exactly where you think you are.

As you can guess, my intention is to eventually embark on a CPL course, so I don't want to become rusty with pure VFR flying (DR)

Thanks in advance!

[squidie]

IMO:

If you have it then use it, everything you can use to aid navigation and flight safety should be considered. By all means flight plan on the whiteboard and plogger (as I do as well) but use the electronic NAV on-board for reckoning.

Also know that if this is like PPL hour building for solo then it’s up to your instructor if he’ll allow you to use the GPS…

[Johnm]

For practical flying GPS is the primary means of navigation if you get a CPL/IR and fly light aircraft IFR there's no other way to navigate in practice.

For training and tests it's a rather more complicated story

[ChickenHouse]

What do you want to do long term? If you want to stay VFR pilot and alive, train not using GPS frequently. If you want to go airliner, you will forget most of the VFR stuff anyways. If you are only into scrubbing down hours by hours to reach a certain hour goal, use it to relax while hurrying to your goal, it is ok, but stop doing that thereafter.

Yes, GPS is a safety feature and rather nice, but it WILL lull you into wrong safety attitude. I always do the little nasty test when doing checkrides - switch off GPS and see wether the pilot would survive - an increasing number won't in case of electrical power loss.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Yes, GPS is a safety feature and rather nice, but it WILL lull you into wrong safety attitude

It's surprised me just how quickly you become dependant on GPS in a GA environment.

I still back up with a chart, but the idea of switching off the GPS enroute would be a bit of a shock I'm sure. I'll try it next time I'm flying (well maybe just turn the iPad over) and see if I can navigate the old way?!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Johnm is of course wrong, as there are plenty of VFR and IFR pilots quite happily navigating long distances safely without GPS.

However, he's also right that for enjoyable flying, a moving map GPS is far and away the best tool for primary navigation that currently exists, again both VFR and IFR.


But, despite this last, it's banned in the CPL skilltest, and not used by and large for the IR either.

So, if you are planning to go commercial, I think that the best best is to rely heavily upon DR / Plog navigation, and practice flying that way to the highest possible standard of accuracy.

But if you have a GPS, take the thing - used sensibly, it can keep you out of trouble, and provide a useful safety feature. "Nearest airfield" mode when the weather starts clagging in is a very good thing for example - you can beat yourself up about how you got into that position after landing.


I flew with a "student" who already holds a PPL at the weekend who was using an iPad based GPS nav system. Approx. 15 miles from his home airfield, the batteries went dead and he declared himself lost. Just don't ever let yourself get to that point. [And yes, even he agreed that some remedial instruction was required.]

G

[stevelup]

I flew with a "student" who already holds a PPL at the weekend who was using an iPad based GPS nav system. Approx. 15 miles from his home airfield, the batteries went dead and he declared himself lost. Just don't ever let yourself get to that point. [And yes, even he agreed that some remedial instruction was required.

What was the remedial advice? Make sure you charge your device properly, and carry a suitable backup power source if there's no aircraft power? :)

[Johnm]

So Genghis just how do I fly a light aircraft IFR without a GPS?

[Mariner9]

GPS is a great tool for positively identifying visual features on the ground.

In your (the OP) position, I'd therefore use a good chunk of the hour building to fly repeatedly around the area in which you are going to do your CPL using GPS until you can readily recognise all visual landmarks.

Test and training will be much more straightforward after that.

[Genghis the Engineer]

So Genghis just how do I fly a light aircraft IFR without a GPS?

Well, I'm guessing that you don't.

Personally, I find a couple of VORs, a DME, and a compass & DI work quite well in combination with a chart, PLOG and my wristwatch. I'm not sure if you've tried it, but at the end of a lot of flights, I also use a handy little device called an ILS.

But I accept that I'm eccentric at times.

What was the remedial advice? Make sure you charge your device properly, and carry a suitable backup power source if there's no aircraft power? :)

That was somewhere towards the end of the debrief, after carrying a chart, and having a clue about his local area.

I could just about see the airfield from the point he declared himself lost :E We were next to a town that had a railway going right to the airfield as well - but it doesn't do to make life too easy for yourself. Okay, maybe it does.

G

[Big Pistons Forever]

I find it discouraging that we can only seem to discuss GPS vs Traditional methods as a binary either/or question.

What I see lacking in GPS dependent pilots is not so much a GPS issue as a more general lack of TLAR (That Looks About Right) estimating ability.

What I want to hear from my students is an approximation of the heading, distance and ETE before they hit the enter button. Developing that ability gives you the skills to realize when the box is not telling you what you want and keeps your SA up if you loose the GPS.

Most real world GPS F*uck ups involve a gross navigational error caused by incorrect data entry. So if you went to Lower Gum Boot Upon Tyne for a bacon sarny and the heading to get their was 310, if the box says the heading to get back home is 223, then you should immediately shout "Hey that ain't Right !"

I think it is also important to note that "traditional" navigation techniques were developed because they were the best techniques for the technology that existed at the time. The principal technological deficit then was that there was no way to know exactly where you were in real time and thus traditional nav techniques were developed to overcome this limitation.

Well technology has moved on and now GPS provides real time extremely accurate positioning data so the principal factor underpinning traditional nav no longer applies. I don't have a lot if time for the Luddites that reject GPS. It is a better way to navigate in every way. Using GPS makes your flight safer and more efficient and greatly reduces the chance of inadvertent penetration of the modern thickets of controlled/restricted airspace.

When teaching nav I start with traditional nav because it teaches the fundamentals of course/heading/time/speed/distance without which having a good TLAR sense is impossible. But when that is mastered I am clear on how, when you want to get from A to B in the real world, you use the best information available and that will always be provided by a GPS.

[Johnm]

To use tools effectively you need a trained craftsman

[dublinpilot]

Johnm is of course wrong, as there are plenty of VFR and IFR pilots quite happily navigating long distances safely without GPS.

Genghis,

I think you'll find that Johnm is referring to the fact that an IFR GPS is the only way to meet the RNav requirements for IFR in the airways, at least as far as light GA is concerned.

dp

[skyking1]

For many years I filed and flew RNAV using the KNS80. I still have it filling a largish hole in the panel.

[Johnm]

KNS 80 was very good in its day and still makes a useful DME for those occasions when you might need one.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis,

I think you'll find that Johnm is referring to the fact that an IFR GPS is the only way to meet the RNav requirements for IFR in the airways, at least as far as light GA is concerned.

dp

Aah, I wouldn't know as I'm studying for CBIR at the moment, so would officially still get a nosebleed if I went into an airway


G

[Cusco]

KNS 80 was very good in its day and still makes a useful DME for those occasions when you might need one.


I have held a FAAIR since 2002 and a EASA PPL/IR since 2011.

I still fire up the Narco RNAV equivalent of the KNS 80 (NS 800) every time I fly both IFR or VFR for anything but a local bimble.

It all forms part of my quadruple redundancy of navigational avionics which means I won't find myself in the position of G the Es dud battery student.

I also draw blue lines on the chart, use a stopwatch and look over the side from time to time.

It has a lot to recommend it

But I use the 430W for IFR stuff and SD on iPad for VFR from choice, but both the NS800 and the 430W can be coupled to the auto pilot.

Cusco

[piperboy84]

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
I flew with a "student" who already holds a PPL at the weekend who was using an iPad based GPS nav system. Approx. 15 miles from his home airfield, the batteries went dead and he declared himself lost. Just don't ever let yourself get to that point. [And yes, even he agreed that some remedial instruction was required.
What was the remedial advice? Make sure you charge your device properly, and carry a suitable backup power source if there's no aircraft power

Or, plug it into the fag lighter,

Re; Use of VOR v. GPS, if your doing your checkride or training? learn the sh&t out of how to use the VOR/RMI/HSI. If your out bumbling around? fly the magenta line on the panel GPS, if that packs up follow the magenta line on your ipad, if that packs up follow the magenta line on your iphone, if that packs up well you'll just have to look out the window!!!

[foxmoth]

If you are hour building for CPL I would forget the GPS, use basic Nav but also use VOR/DME/ADF (actually not sure if ADF is still needed), i.e. The things you will be using on test, and make sure you are really comfortable with how to use them for tracking and position fixing. I would also suggest doing a few flights where you practice all the general handling you will need for the test so make sure you are completely happy with stalling, steep turns PFLs etc. and then do a few circuits with different approaches at the end of the flight.:ok:

[Johnm]

CAA recently removed the requirement to carry VOR ADF Or DME for IFR flight unless procedures at destination require them. Consequently I can now fly IFR airways from Gloucester to Alderney with nothing but a GTN 650 or GNS 430W or equivalent, that would apply to anywhere else with an RNAV or ILS approach and a waypoint rather than beacon for the missed approach.

[ChickenHouse]

CAA recently removed the requirement to carry VOR ADF Or DME for IFR flight unless procedures at destination require them. Consequently I can now fly IFR airways from Gloucester to Alderney with nothing but a GTN 650 or GNS 430W or equivalent, that would apply to anywhere else with an RNAV or ILS approach and a waypoint rather than beacon for the missed approach.
If you are equipped with GTN650 or GNS430(W) you do carry a NAV for VOR etc - just to be precise ...

[Johnm]

Good point Chicken House!

[Fitter2]

A wise pilot once remarked to me that a GPS confirms that he was exactly where he knew he was without using it.

Highly useful as an aid, not to be trusted as one's sole means of navigation (not because of unreliability, but the prospect of being lost without it would indicate a lack of basic skills, or a failure of training.)

[marcus1290]

I think the GPS discussion is an interesting one. I've been saying for a while now that i think some form of GPS might become mandatory in the future. Not as a form of primary navigation, but as an aid for situation awareness with airspace and as a quick reference in the event of getting lost.

I fly with a Garmin 430 and a 530 and i use them for navigation, but not my primary form of nav. I feel very uncomfortable without a written plog and a chart on my lap. My opinion is that if its there, you might as well put it to use.

I agree that IFR nav is ALMOST impossible without a GPS, but i think its extremely important to know how to fly IMC without one. Electrics can fail.

I also wonder how long it will be until GPS training is a part of the PPL syllabus?

[foxmoth]

AFAIUI This is not a discussion over what is good to use in general flying or can be used to fly IFR but what to use in hour building for the CPL test, for that you should use whatever is going to be useful in the test itself so that you are well practised for that, the rest is a seperate discussion!:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree with Foxmoth.



I have various strong views on both the use of GPS in GA flying, and the way it is, or isn't, integrated into the PPL and CPL syllabi. However, that wasn't the exam question.

G

[foxmoth]

I agree that IFR nav is ALMOST impossible without a GPS,

And raised this one as a seperate thread for just that reason!

[flybymike]

I think the GPS discussion is an interesting one. I've been saying for a while now that i think some form of GPS might become mandatory in the future. Not as a form of primary navigation, but as an aid for situation awareness with airspace and as a quick reference in the event of getting lost.
There would be far fewer infringements if everyone used GPS as a primary source of navigation rather than relying on stop watches, wind drift, headings, and eyeballs. This is the 21st century let's not go back to astrodomes, sextants and wizardry.
For those who enjoy the challenge of visual navigation for primary nav, then fine, carry on, and just live with the increased associated nav risk and its consequences.

[skyking1]

The KNS80 is still plumbed into the Collins PN101 HSI for ILS as well. I have a simple VOR needle converted for my GPS course.
Interesting tidbit: The HSI is serial number 0005 :)

On topic: Of course I use the GPS when needed. I fly so many of the same old trip and still hold a chart with the proper section open when VFR. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.

[marcus1290]

There would be far fewer infringements if everyone used GPS as a primary source of navigation rather than relying on stop watches, wind drift, headings, and eyeballs.

I quite agree and thats all well until the GPS fails one day. Or the appropriate update isn't done. Knowing the fundamentals of navigation is a must. Sometimes i don't like using a GPS, i think it takes the fun away from flying. Bumbling around in the cub with a chart and plog is my idea of heaven.

[Mach Jump]

I appreciate this has probably been asked countless times to a certain degree, but what are your thoughts on the use of a GPS whilst hour building? I still plan all my flights like normal (whizz wheel, plog etc), but it's nice to have the reassurance that you are exactly where you think you are.

I agree with Genghis and Foxmoth. The CPL GFT requires accurate flying, and slick use of DR (Deductive Reckoning) navigation, so practice that as much as you can.

No harm in having a moving map GPS though, both to confirm the accuracy of your DR nav, and to retrace your path afterwards to analyse your mistakes.


MJ:ok:

Ps. Thats exactly how I use GPS during VFR flying still.

[foxmoth]

Quote

No harm in having a moving map GPS though, both to confirm the accuracy of your DR nav, and to retrace your path afterwards to analyse your mistakes

Yes, but turn it on and leave it in your bag until after unless you get lost, otherwise it is easy to end up cheating which defeats the point of the excercise!

[Mariner9]

"I didn't want to cheat so the GPS was in my bag" doesn't sound like the best excuse for an airspace bust ;)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I could just about see the airfield from the point he declared himself lost We were next to a town that had a railway going right to the airfield as well

I'm a great believer in carrying and using a GPS. However, the above illustrates that just as some motorists follow their sat navs onto railway lines or drive for 200 miles the wrong way to place that's 5 minutes away because they input the wrong destination, so GPS can encourage lazy pilots to ignore the basics of navigation.

[foxmoth]

"I didn't want to cheat so the GPS was in my bag" doesn't sound like the best excuse for an airspace bust

So don't plan your flight to go so near CAS it will be a problem - the OP is hour building towards a CPL, not trying to shave a few seconds off his flight time by going the shortest route. Many GPS systems can be set up to warn as you approach CAS, if you are that worried set it to "ping" and have it where you will hear it - but to my mind, if your nav is that bad you NEED the practice!:eek: