Bachelor of Tech in Aircraft Maintenance & Operations!

[206Fan]

Hi folks,

The University of Limerick in Ireland has recently started up the above course in Aircraft Maintenance. I'm wondering has anybody else looked into it as I'm thinking of applying for the course next year.

It states the course allows students to satisfy the basic knowledge requirements for the EASA Part 66 Exams while earning a Degree at the same time. Placement in the 3rd year is with Lufthansa Technik at Shannon Aerospace which isn't paid, but it's the experience that counts!

Gengis.. Has this course been brought to your attention yet?

Programme Highlights:



This programme is offered in partnership with Lufthansa Technik Shannon Ltd, a leading maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) and modifications’ services provider for civil operated aircraft.
It is the only University degree in aircraft maintenance and operations offered in Ireland and in partnership with an EASA Part 145 Aircraft Maintenance Organisation and an EASA Part 147 Aircraft Maintenance Training Organisation;
Besides obtaining their degree, students can also satisfy the basic knowledge requirements for the EASA Part 66 Aircraft Maintenance License in category C, through the examinations administered by Shannon Aerospace (an approved EASA Part 147 Aircraft Maintenance Training Organisation);

http://www3.ul.ie/courses/aircraftmaintenance.php

[TomU]

I don't understand that bit about satisfying the basic knowledge requirements for Pt 66 Cat C.
Cat C requires serving time as a certifying cat B1, B2, not about basic knowledge.

[206Fan]

Hi Tom,

I believe it means satisfying the basic knowledge requirements to pass the EASA Part 66 Exams during the duration of the course just. The work experience starts in 3rd year of the course at Shannon Aerospace.

Though this is the reason I've started the thread to ask Questions and get expert responses from other Engineers on here!

[spannersatcx]

I don't understand that bit about satisfying the basic knowledge requirements for Pt 66 Cat C.
Cat C requires serving time as a certifying cat B1, B2, not about basic knowledge.

No it doesn't.

For category C obtained through the academic route:

an applicant holding an academic degree in a technical discipline, from a university or other higher educational institution recognized by the competent authority, three years of experience working in a civil aircraft maintenance environment on a representative selection of tasks directly associated with aircraft maintenance including six months of observation of base maintenance tasks.

[Capot]

CAUTION!

"Satisfying the basic knowledge requirements for Part 66 etc etc" is not necessarily the same thing as a Fully Approved Basic Training Course, leading to a Basic Training Certificate issued by the Part 147-approved Maintenance Training Organisation.

So, although there should be no worries about it being a Fully-Approved Part 147/66 course, with the Part 147 approved organisation involved in the scheme, alarm bells are ringing because the ad did not say so unequivocally.

The University degree is nice to hang on the wall, but what you need, if you want to be a Part 66 Licensed AME, is the Basic training Certificate issued by the Part 147 approved MTO, followed by 2 years of work experience.The fully-approved course must be delivered in accordance with the Part 147 MTOE, ie its exposition, by instructors listed in the Exposition, not by the university and its lecturers (unless they are listed in the MTOE), using premises and teaching material that are described and audited within the MTOE. I don't get the impression that the university necessarily understands that.

It is not, repeat not, simply a question of passing the exams run by Shannon Aerospace.

Or rather, it could be, if the course is not run as described; but if the course is not run as a fully-approved course (ie as above) the work experience requirement would increase massively, and you would be wasting your money on the university course while you could be working as a fitter to gain the experience and studying at home for the Modules.

Maybe all these things are in place and whoever is promoting ths course understands all the requirements extremely well. But it doesn't sound like it, from the text quoted in the post. Maybe things are different in the Republic, but I doubt that.

As someone else has said, another alarm bell is ringing with the way the ad talks about Cat C; there are no "knowledge requirements" for a Cat C licence beyond those needed for a Cat B licence which the course is offering in any case. The ad is rubbish.

PS. OK, maybe the university does understand the requirements, and is simply trying to inveigle people on to an un-approved course by the promise of work experience at Shannon. It wouldn't be the first time a College or University has mis-sold its products. If that is the case, you should walk away from it. Ask Shannon for a job instead, do the exams over the next 3-5 years with their MTOE, complete the 5 years experience you'll need doing it this way and then apply for the licence.

If the knowledge course on offer is not Shannon Aerospace's 2-year (2400 hour min) Approved Cat B course (which must include Practical and On-The-Job training) the likely outcome is that you would do the 2 years at the University, get your nice degree, and then be required to do 5 years work experience to get a Licence. I've a dreadful feeling this is what they are selling to you, but I hope I'm wrong and apologise if so.

[206Fan]

Thanks for the input Capot. I did Email the Professor this morning, I'm sure I'll have more Questions for him!

What is your verdict on the below information?

The programe incorporates all modules applicable to B1.1 category, which are delivered and examined in UL by Lufthansa Technik Shannon Part 147 Maintenance Training Organisation (MTO). Each of the module is awarded academic credit and the relevant EASA certificate (upon successful completion - pass grade is 75%).

The programme is recognised by EASA, through the competent Aviation Authority (namely Irish Aviation Authority, IAA) as compliant for the C Category license (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer) via academic route. This means that upon award of this Degree an individual needs to complete three (3) of practical experience in aircraft maintenance (including six months in Base level) to apply for the C Category license. For the B1.1 category license the requirement is five (5) years of practical experience in aircraft maintenance, but B1.1 is the License for Aircraft Maintenance Technician.

[Capot]

I think I was right to be cautious.

Ther key words are;

The programme is recognised by EASA, through the competent Aviation Authority (namely Irish Aviation Authority, IAA) as compliant for the C Category license (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer) via academic route.

and

For the B1.1 category license the requirement is five (5) years of practical experience in aircraft maintenance,

Reading between the lines, you are being offered a backdoor route to a C Licence, for which you will need to complete the degree course, followed by 3 years work experience.

But unless you have a Cat B licence to get that experience, getting a job in the first place will be tough. I do not know if 3 years unlicensed work experience would be regarded as sufficient for a C Licence, degree or no degree. I rather hope not, for my own safety, but another ppruner may know the answer to this.

They are suggesting the 5 years work experience for exactly the reasons I outlined before; the course is not the fully-approved Part 66 B1 Basic Training course. They will teach you the Cat B Module material as an unapproved course, and you will then take the Module exams. (They will NOT do the Practical or OJT elements of a fully-approved course.)

This is a waste of your time and money. You can work unlicensed for 5 years, pass all the Modules with home study in that time, and then apply for a B licence. Doing an expensive 2 year degree course followed by 5 years experience, 7 years in all, is ridiculous.

What they are not saying is that selling this course as a way to go straight to a C Licence is a complete con. Why?

Even if the IAA would award you a C Licence on the basis of a 2-year degree course and 3 years unlicensed work experience, and I'm not saying they would not, no Maintenance Organisation is going to employ you as anything other than a fitter, in my opinion (meaning if anyone thinks that's wrong, with reasons, please say so!).

My recommendation would be to give this one a miss. Either;

1. Do a fully-approved 2-year Cat B (.1 and/or .2) Basic Training course with a Part 147-approved MTO, followed by 2 years unlicensed work experience,

or

2. Work unlicensed in a Part 145 MRO for 5 years, while passing the Modules for your chosen Category with home study, augmented maybe by short, intensive unapproved courses (usually 3 - 10 days) which some organisations offer.

In short, I would take the words "The programme is recognised by EASA, through the competent Aviation Authority (namely Irish Aviation Authority, IAA) as compliant for the C Category license (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer) via academic route." with a very, very large dose of salt. The words may be technically correct, but they ignore the realities totally.

I would put your chances of having a C Licence in your hand based on a 2-year "degree" course and 3 years of unlicensed work experience as precisely 1:1,000, even if the IAA is more "flexible" than the UKCAA or German LBA, for example, about such matters. Especially if that work experience includes only 6 months unlicensed work on Base maintenance, with the rest on the Line or as a workshop technician.

People may argue that a C Licence is only about getting the paperwork right to issue a CRS and requires little technical knowledge or experience, and the University seems to think that. EASA may think that too, but if you get lucky and the 1:1,000 chance comes off, I believe that you would, and should, be working as a fitter for the rest of your career, C Licence or not.

I haven't even mentioned the little matter of type ratings; I suspect that it's a factor but I don't know the detail of how that would affect the C Licence issue.

When you get your B Licence, you have the foundation (and the only required academic qualification) for the C Licence; what is then needed is several years experience as a licensed, certifying engineer, with a number of type ratings on your licence and experience of using them. This is the best way forward, IMHO.

PS Once again,the wording of the extract you provided shows that the writer's understanding of the regulations is quite superficial, and/or that they are mis-selling deliberately. EG, B1.1 is not the only AME licence by any means; I could pick up several other clues in those 2 paras alone, but this post is too long already!

[206Fan]

Again thanks for your time and input Capot, appreciated!

This is a brand new course so I had a good idea something was fishy about the whole thing. To add the course is actually 4 years for the likes of myself with no previous Engineer / Technician experience so adding to your sentiments above it will be 9 years after gaining the 5 years work experience which is nuts.

I'm already 29 and I had planned on studying the Mechanical Engineering Degree course anyway next year, but as I say I'm just sussing this Maintenance Course out. It would probably be safer spending my hard earned €7250 and four years on the Mechanical course or go to a MTO.

Another thing to add about the Maintenance Course is the Professor is from the Middle East and has been holding seminars in India to promote the course and bring international students over for it. They did have an open day at the University of Limerick in regards to the course but I haven't seen them really bringing it to the attention of the Irish community or the UK for that matter.

1. Do a fully-approved 2-year Cat B (.1 and/or .2) Basic Training course with a Part 147-approved MTO, followed by 2 years unlicensed work experience,

Is there a certain MTO you would recommend? I would love to work on Helicopters long term as I can already fly them!

[Capot]

Is there a certain MTO you would recommend? I would love to work on Helicopters long term as I can already fly them!Hmmm; at the age of 29, unless you are quite well-off and can afford to support yourself for 2 years as well as paying tuition fees (typically £15K - £20K), I would strongly recommend working unlicensed for 5 years, while getting the Modules under your belt, in a Helicopter Part 145-approved MRO. You may have to accept a low salary, but it's better than spending all that money.

You can book and sit the Module exams one by one when you are ready, either with the IAA or the CAA (or any other NAA but beware the language).

This would be a much better foundation, when you have finally got the B1.3 (ie Turbine Helicopter - B1.4 is piston heli) Licence under your belt for a future career than 2 years in a College (with Part 147) and 2 years work experience.

Your flying knowledge and experience must count in your favour when you are looking for that hangar job, especially if you have a CPL/ATPL.

.....the Professor is from the Middle East and has been holding seminars in India to promote the course and bring international students over for it.Yup; it's going to be dodgy. Some UK Colleges/Universities have made a lot of money selling EASA Part 66 training in the UK to people from Asia, for which the end of course outcome was far short of what was implied or even promised. Any reasonable person could fairly describe their behaviour as deliberate fraud practised on gullible young people in those countries, evidently with the connivance of the UK CAA.

It's a pity that this grand money-making notion has been exported to Ireland. Perhaps tightening up on foreign student visas, and on those who are responsible for foreign student welfare in the UK has forced the Professor to seek pastures new.

I wonder if the "Professor" from the Middle East is who I suspect it is?

[Capot]

Is there a certain MTO you would recommend? I would love to work on Helicopters long term as I can already fly them!Hmmm; at the age of 29, unless you are quite well-off and can afford to support yourself for 2 years as well as paying tuition fees (typically £15K - £20K), I would strongly recommend working unlicensed in a Helicopter Part 145-approved MRO. You may have to accept a low salary, but it's better than spending all that money.

This would be a much better foundation, when you have finally got the B1.3 (ie Rotary) Licence under your belt for a future career than 2 years in a College (with Part 147) and 2 years work experience.

Your flying knowledge and experience must count in your favour when you are looking for that hangar job.

.....the Professor is from the Middle East and has been holding seminars in India to promote the course and bring international students over for it.Yup; it's going to be dodgy. Several UK Colleges have made a lot of money selling EASA Part 66 training in Asia and the Far East, for which the end of course outcome was far short of what was implied or even promised. Their behaviour could fairly be described as deliberate fraud practised on gullible young Asian men.

It's a pity that this grand money-making notion has been exported to Ireland. Perhaps tightening up on student visas, and on those who are responsible for student welfare in the UK has forced the Professor to seek pastures new.

I wonder if the "Professor" from the Middle East is who I suspect it is; whoever it is must be good at ramming things down peoples' throats.

PS I just read the website page about the course; it's not even a degree course!

This programme provides the opportunity to:

Gain an honours Bachelor of Technology degree from one of the most respected Aeronautical Engineering departments in Europe in collaboration with the Lufthansa Technik AG subsidiary Shannon Aerospace

I think there's a B Tech qualification in the course, but otherwise successful completion only "provides the opportunity to gain a Bachelor of Technology".....not the degree itself.

A "Bachelor of Technology" degree issued in Limerick is probably NOT going to qualify anyone for a C licence, even if a student did manage to get one.

And while Lufthansa Technik is certainly a top-notch MRO, it's not "one of the most respected Aeronautical Engineering departments in Europe" ,and neither is the University of Limerick. So I wonder who they mean by that? I'm guessing that the "degree" would be awarded by the University of Limerick; the suggestion that Lufthansa Technik issues degrees is simply rubbish.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Gengis.. Has this course been brought to your attention yet?

First I knew of it, and my involvement in the Irish education system doesn't extend as far as Limerick. Some recent experiences may mean that it may well retract back this side of the Irish sea as whilst I am impressed with the dedication of the Irish government to provide the best possible professional education, I'm increasingly cynical about the educational institutions abilities to provide it.


I think that the cynicism above is probably sound, but that doesn't mean the course may not prove okay. There are doubtless some really high quality people in Ireland (or elsewhere in the English speaking world) who could provide this sort of education, and academic salaries in Ireland are good enough to attract good people. I think that you can only look hard at the specific delivery and quality of teaching staff. I'd also ask some direct questions about their plan and progress in getting course accreditation from Engineers Ireland.

G

[Geotracker]

Hello,

Man the advice that I can give stay away from maintenance.... It's a very tough and cruel world out there. Forget about the part66 exams and all those fake promises. A bachelor degree in aviation won't bring you to somewhere beside of becoming a filter replacer and pump up tires. You gonna have to start at the bottom first of all and then make up your own by yourself by experience, achieving qualifications and licences and ir ur lucky and depending the company where u work they will invest in you a typerating. But overall expect it to be a very tough job for not really a lot of money and a total destruction of your social life.

I know many, when I say many mechanics and engineers regret their study and job and that went doing complete different things.
Epect also to work with real dickheads in the maintenance and the kind off all to know people. Expect also to violate the rules by not respecting the manual as it costs too much to the company. The perfect wanted mechanic nowadays is the one that is as less qualified and experienced possible that will do the work on his own way and will be overruled by a stamp of one qualified person that will walk around in the area. It's very rare even that companies do make the licences and stuff for you, even less pay it for you. Already the fact that you said the internship is without any salary, stinks. You should be rewarded as you are going to do dirty and ****ty jobs of the local mechanics that will be instructed to you. No one should work for free, but it seems to be working again in aviation this famous method of people paying money to work even.

Anyway the advice I give to you according personal experiences and whitnessing it's better seek something else. It will be too much studying for what it is... Better check out some management field, u will be better off with that.

Greetz,


GT

[Avionker]

Geotracker

And your experience of aircraft maintenance is what exactly? I thought you were a pilot, a very inexperienced one at that, according to your other posts.....