Help Please - Landing Process Breakdown

[Lozzy123]

Hi all,

I started learning to fly last year and truly got bitten by the flying bug! It's amazing! Unfortunately I was only able to have 8 hours of lessons until various things came up in my life in the winter which put a temporary stop to it. I've finally managed to get myself booked back in again after several months away, and am very excited but also nervous about it! As it's been several months I was wondering if someone would kindly give me a few tips to help me get back into the swing of things again quickly? My worry is that with such a long time away, I may end up back at square one :(

My last training exercise was circuits and I'd had a couple of lessons for this and it's proved to be the hardest part so far! I would like to go through the landing process all in my mind and have the sequence for a normal landing completely memorised and set, so I feel confident in what I'm doing. But with such a big gap I'm finding it hard to remember the whole sequence, so hoping some kind person could break it down for me??? (Oh and I'm learning in a Cessna 152 if that helps) Here's what I remember....

1) I use a left hand circuit. I go full power down the runway, take off, turn left, then turn left again to go back on myself. I travel downwind of the circuit and when approx half way down the runway I radio in, name the plane and say downwind.. e.g. "lima delta downwind" , to which I get a response acknowledging.

2) I continue down and once the start of the runway is at 8 o'clock of the wing tips, I turn left down base.

3) As I'm going down base leg I reduce power and pull back gently to keep the plane level, then trim. I think at this point it's 'carburetta on'

4) When the landing strip is again to my left, just past my shoulder I think 45 degrees, I turn left again and aim for the runway, centre line.

5) I reduce power again aiming for I think 70 knots, pull back again to keep the nose up and plane level and trim.

6) With the speed in the 'white arc' I can now put the flaps down 20 degrees. Feeling stable and steady the flaps go down a further 20 degrees.

7) At this point low down, trying to aim for centre of the runway, and pulling back gently on the control stick to keep the nose up

8) I then attempt to fly parallel with the runway, gently slowing down and getting lower, to then gently put the wheels on the runway.

How far off am I from memory?! And please be gentle! :) :ok:

[skyhighfallguy]

ONE:

acknowledge you will need more lessons.

TWO: no where did you mention LOOK FOR OTHER PLANES I MIGHT RUN INTO.

THREE: BUY "STICK AND RUDDER" and read it.

FOUR: FIND A GOOD INSTRUCTOR

safe flying!

[fireflybob]

Lozzy123, firstly good luck with the resumption of your training!

Can I suggest you discuss how to fly the circuit with your flying instructor who should be able to give comprehensive training and guidance on the points you raise?

[Piper.Classique]

Not a bad summary, but how about talking to your instructor?
Probably won't bite you, after all. I expect he or she will want you to do a little revision first anyway. BTW, you don't put the wheels on the runway, you try to keep them off the ground untl the aircraft runs out of energy
enjoy!
There, was that gentle enough?

BTW, Stick and rudder is good, but not the only book there is, and, yes, of course lookout is important.

[Lozzy123]

Thanks everyone! I have my lesson on Sunday next week so can ask my instructor then, but I just wanted to get the landing breakdown firmly in my mind again before the lesson. I'll look up that book thanks :)

[150 Driver]

A fairly accurate summary. Remember to reduce power once you have achieved (in this case) circuit height and speed. Of course remember to keep a good look out.

But echoing what has been said above, use your instructor. Instructors will have different views on what happens when - e.g. when to put carb heat on - and sometimes it is condition dependent (e.g. when to put flaps on when in cross wind).

So rather than confuse by listening to what we say on here, which will vary from the highly trained and frequent instructor through to the less experienced, you are best getting it from the person you are going to rely on to ingrain your own good habits and routines .

Having said that, something I had hammered into me on base and final was speed, speed, speed, it is amazing how quickly a 152's speed can degrade when flaps are extended - so remember to point the nose down, quickly if necessary.

Good luck. 8 hours might seem like lot, but realistically you've have a break, and got another 50-60 odd pre test to really hone this.

[skyhighfallguy]

Realistically it takes much more time to SOLO than in the past. Someone flying from a large runway in the middle of flat wheatfields could probably solo in 4 hours.

But a small strip, busy with many other planes, following rules and having contingency plans for everything needs much more in the way of lessons.

"Stick and Rudder" has been around over 70 years and I encourage you to read it.

The world of the internet can be interesting and informative. But the art of flying can't really be taught. An instructor can help you learn but your own mind has to grasp flying in the form of imagination.

Do you even know why you turn on carburetor heat?

Do you know why you use flaps? Do you know what to do if you have to go around and you can't retract the flaps?

Using rote, we could probably teach a monkey to land a plane.

Get a good instructor and assume you will be starting from page one. And if you can't afford it, fishing is a nice hobby.

[150 Driver]

skyhighfallguy, at 8 hours if I knew why carb heat was applied or flaps extended, I certainly didn't know why it was when they were needed.

I found learning by rote and understanding why later worked for me. There was simply too much to do in the circuit at the time.

Going a stage further I only found out why carb heat was needed very shortly before test when the engine nearly cut out downwind (instructor just got the heat on in time). Up until that point I thought it was theoretical risk ! As with all things the experience taught me what to look for.

[phiggsbroadband]

Some Instructors (maybe not yours) and some text books use APT and PAT for setting power and trim in the circuit. It works a bit like this....


APT... Used when levelling off at an altitude such as 1000ft for the circuit.
A... Attitude, push on the stick 50ft before your desired altitude and watch the speed increase to the cruise speed required. (is it 90kts in a C152?)
P... Power, adjust the power to the cruise setting of say 2400 rpm
T... Trim. By this time you are pushing quite hard on the column, so trim of the force to zero with the trim wheel.


PAT... Used when changing from level flight to descend.
P... Power, adjust to give the known rate of descent required, about 1800 rpm.
A... Attitude, adjust the attitude with the stick to give your required 65-70kts approach speed.
T... Trim off any stick pressure (you should be able to fly with no force on the stick)


If you are doing multiple Touch and Goes, you will soon get to realise that you wind two or three 'knobbles' on the trim wheel on the way up and the same two or three off on the way down...!

[skyhighfallguy]

150 Driver. Did you really solo without knowing about carb heat? Did you solo without passing written exams? (while not required, I made sure my students passed their written prior to solo).

Well, safe flying.

[roundsounds]

Maybe try taking some pictures of the cockpit of the 152 (or download some from the web) and become familiar with the location / use of each control. (switch, level, knob, selector etc). A copy of the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) should assist you with this process, anything you don't understand make a note and ask your instructor. Also get a copy of the written procedures and checklist used by your school. Learn them and practice them using your "virtual cockpit" made up of the pics of the cockpit. Being more comfortable in the aircraft by learning the operating procedures will leave you with more brain space to learn the flying skills. Most of all enjoy the learning experience, these will some of the most memorable in your flying career!

[9 lives]

Welcome Lozzy, a few thoughts...

The information you present is not wrong, but thinking about it that much may not be entirely beneficial.

First of all, as said, receive the instruction which will be provided by your instructor.

Thereafter, consider that landing an airplane is less recipe, and more feeling yourself being always five seconds ahead of the next perfect thing the plane will do, 'cause you're controlling it. You're controlling it, but you're not thinking about controlling the plane, you're thinking about what you want the plane to do - your body does the rest. Focus on what the plane should do, not what you will do to make that happen.

When you drive your car around the corner, are you watching your hands on the steering wheel, to assure that they grasp the wheel and turn it just the right amount to guide the car? Or, are you looking at the clear lane before you, and your eyes picking the places within that lane where the wheels will pass? You looked there, did the wheels go there? - Probably fairly well, you missed that pothole and just touched the white line a smidge as you planned.

Think about the plane, including the third dimension, the desired speed, and the trend to the next thing (accelerating, climbing, banking etc.). Next, know that getting the plane over the approach end of the landing surface can be done many ways. You quote many numbers and measures, which are certainly one way, but there are other ways - you will learn them. So don't fixate. Don't think "pull now, push now, trim now", think gently control the plane to "trend it" gracefully to where you know it needs to be. Okay, that "trending" may have to be cat like reflexes, if it's turbulent, but you know what I mean.

Your instructor will demonstrate maneuvers. Don't watch their hands, watch the plane's motion, and then imagine yourself making the plane do that. Artistic, not recipe....

[piperboy84]

And don't forget to look down the runway during the flare to get better idea of how close to the runway your are. How far do you look down the runway? One of our more seasoned Canadian friends on here offered this tip a while back on a similar thread that i use as I find it works well for me. Imagine if you were driving along the highway and you look up ahead into the distance to the point where the broken white lines seem to merge together, that's how far, not just over the nose and not the runway end.

Happy flying.

[foxmoth]

Not sure about how you set up on base, 8 o'clock seems slightly early, but if that is what is being taght fine, and 45 degrees turning final seems a little early. For base you turn left to track 90 degrees to the runway (so allow for wind), I teach setting the aircraft up in a descent with carb heat part flap and adjusting power to commence your turn onto final at 600'.
I teach second flap selection after final turn.
When you get to 8) remember to close the throttle, applying some extra back pressure to prevent the nose dropping as you do so, then - hold off, hold off, hold off....
A good landing normally should NOT be power off then on the ground but power off then holding off as long as you can, I tell people they are trying NOT to land!
The rest seems ok, though there may be variations depending on where you fly.
At the end of the day though use the procedures your instructor teaches.

Oh, and get your downwind call in the right place - ABEAM THE UPWIND END OF THE RUNWAY, this means people know where to look for you, if you can't get it in there then call "late downwind".

[wood73]

This is the way was taught it starting from being lined up on the runway

1- Full power, keep straight with rudder
2 - at 60kts pull back gently to lift the plane off the ground
3 - adjust pitch attitude to hold 70kts and trim
4 - at approx. 200 ft check t's & p's
5 - at 500 - 600 ft turn left 90 degrees (allowing for wind)
6 - at 950 ft push forward to level off and watch speed increase to 90kts then reduce throttle to 2250 rpm and trim
7 - turn left another 90 degrees (the upwind end of the runway should now be at 10 o'clock
8 - when the upwind end of the runway is off the end of the wing call downwind
9 - pre landing checks - BUMFECHH

B Brakes (press and check for pressure)

U undercarriage (fixed)

M mixture full rich

F fuel sufficient on gauges to go around (on planes with selectable tanks would be fullest tank selected)

E engine (t's & p's in the green)

C carb heat to hot (on)

H harnesses secure (seatbelts)

H hatches secure (doors)

All the while making sure you are not closing or moving away from the runway

10 - with the landing end of the runway at about 8 o'clock turn left 90 degrees
11 - reduce power to idle and hold level
12 - when speed is in the white arc select 20 deg flap
13 - wind the trim wheel back (or down) 2 and half turns, plane should settle in the descent at 70 kts (small adjustments as necessary)
14 - (the hardest part for me) gauge whether you are too low or too high and add small amount of power if too low, or turn slightly away from the runway if too high.
15 - start to turn final slightly before the runway and adjust turn, you should be at approx. 600ft at this point.
16 - select landing flap
17 - call final
18 - adjust attitude and power to keep the runway where it should be in the window and 70 kts
19 - at 100ft decide whether its going to plan and if not go around
20 - at 15 to 20ft raise the nose gently to level (you should be at 5 - 10 ft when you reach level) and reduce throttle to idle
21 - try and keep the plane flying by gently increasing back pressure
22 - the plane will land!

throughout this, from the moment you enter the runway keep a good lookout and listen for other aircraft on the radio.

And never be afraid to put on full power and go around even if the wheels have touched down!

I've made it sound like a lot of work and at first it is but it becomes routine, and you will do this for hours and suddenly you will be able to do it!

[150 Driver]

"150 Driver. Did you really solo without knowing about carb heat? Did you solo without passing written exams? "


No on both counts. But I didn't solo after 8 hours either, more like 20. By the time I'd solo'd of course I was using carb heat (and flaps etc), but even then, I question whether I understood what everything did, I think I was probably still flying by rote.

As to exams my Instructor insisted that I'd passed Air Law (now two papers ?) before going solo.

For me it was an issue of 'Monkey see, Monkey do', but then Monkey studied and eventually Monkey understood.

[SlowAndOldButPaid]

I think one should give more parameters, when listing things like this. How pattern is flown, vastly depends on the plane and the airfield. If I hear turn base at 8 o'clock and turn final on 45 degrees I would imagine a C150 at an airfield with a pretty short final pattern. If you fly by numbers, you get your home airfield right, but may miss the big airport. Fly by guts and training is all about finding it.

[9 lives]

This is the way was taught it starting from being lined up on the runway

1- Full power, keep straight with rudder
2 - at 60kts pull back gently to lift the plane off the ground
3 - adjust pitch attitude to hold 70kts and trim
4 - at approx. 200 ft check t's & p's
5 - at 500 - 600 ft turn left 90 degrees (allowing for wind)
6 - at 950 ft push forward to level off and watch speed increase to 90kts then reduce throttle to 2250 rpm and trim

There are many ways to fly an airplane. This is probably one way to fly one type of plane. It's limiting, and doing this way delays a pilot's awareness of being at one with the plane.

If a pilot flew my C 150 like this, they would not be permitted to fly it again, until they improved their skills. If I were to undertake this remedial training, I would start by covering up the airspeed indicator and altimeter. Then we would undertake training on how to prevent wear and tear on nose landing gear. Nose light all the time on the roll, and it flies off when it is ready. Airliners (and T tailed Pipers) are "rotated" at a speed, all other should be eased off when they are ready. In some types and operations it is critical to do this.

From there, we'd build routines of doing what needs to be done when, and not being distracted by non essentials. Sure, check Ts & Ps, but when there is a natural safe lull in the routine, not at a rather critical phase of flight like climb out at 200 feet - fly the plane then, if the engine is going to cough, you're not going to prevent it because you looked at engine instruments. You just don't have enough time right then to read, interpret, decide a course of action, and monitor engine instrument readings at that point, unless something is going wrong, and you have a hint already.

I agree that most POHs state to use the carb heat on approach, and for that reason, and that reason only, pilots should consider using it. I consider it. I use carb heat when atmospheric conditions are conducive to carb icing, and the use of carb heat may assist in preventing it. I certainly do not use carb heat all the time, as there are times that the application of carb heat will enable icing, which might not have otherwise occurred. Think about why you are using controls. Use them because you understand them.

Spend your thinking learning to be in tune with the plane, its feel, and sounds, and less with numbers and recipes for flying.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

One of our more seasoned Canadian friends on here offered this tip a while back on a similar thread that i use as I find it works well for me. Imagine if you were driving along the highway and you look up ahead into the distance to the point where the broken white lines seem to merge together, that's how far, not just over the nose and not the runway end.

Yes some time ago I wrote a piece on how to judge height. I can't find it now and am to lazy to re write it.

Unless you can accurately judge how high your wheels are above the runway you can not make consistent good landings.

Where you are looking is what determines how accurately you can judge height.

Look to close and the runway is a blur.

Look to far ahead and the angle is to shallow to properly judge height.

The optimum distance ahead of the airplane that you focus is where apparent movement towards you ceases.....in a light bug smasher that is about 500 feet down the runway.

[thing]

Spend your thinking learning to be in tune with the plane, its feel, and sounds, and less with numbers and recipes for fl

I believe you are an instructor? If so, more power to your elbow. I am by no means an experienced pilot cf some of the guys on here but I completely agree with what you say. I don't know if you can teach mechanical/airborne empathy or whether it's something you just have. Mind you I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance when I was 19 and it had a profound and lasting impact on me.

[9 lives]

No, I'm not an instructor, but I do advanced training for licensed pilots, and I've fixed a lot of broken planes. Like people, machines have natural frequencies, and the capacity to accept some forces and loads, but not others. A vital element of people and machine longevity is to understand these natural frequencies and capacities, and operate within them. Cessna nose struts are tough, but can be worn out and broken by misuse.

If you feel the machine, it'll often tell you...

[mary meagher]

Hello Lozzie,

I have done a lot of time helping beginners learn to land, remembering that I had a hard time getting it. And that was in a C152, not a glider.

In your detailed checklist, you are WAY OVERLOADED with detail.

Learning to land a glider keeps it simple. and then going on to do the landings in power, why you've got the basic approach and touchdown NAILED!

As the most important thing is to LAND SAFELY, work on that first.
Later on you can work back onto the other stuff, like circuit planning, decision heights, engine management, radio yak, etc. All these details lead up to the landing. If you get the landing wrong your instructor may not be impressed.

SO, assuming you have somehow turned all the corners and are lined up on the approach, this is where SPEED becomes critical. Approach speed must also be nailed....appropriate for conditions of the day. Strong winds? you will need to safely get through the wind gradient, so a faster approach is used. The same strong headwind will be useful as your over the ground speed will be nice and slow, so gentle touchdown is possible.
Light winds require accuracy. Your instructor will tell you the best approach speed for the type of aircraft you are using.

The idea of a landing is to aim at the ground and just miss it. Otherwise you would be stuck in the ground like a spear.

At what point to begin the roundout - also called the flare. THIS MUST BE DONE GENTLY, NOT ALL AT ONCE.

So in the training K13 glider, I recommend beginning the roundout at the height of the average elephant. Look well ahead, don't look down.

Raise the nose a bit and wait. Raise the nose a bit and wait. and do it again and again until you are flying just above the daisies in LEVEL flight, with the wheel just above the ground. Wait some more, and as the aircraft gets slower, it will gently no longer be flying and gently touch the ground.

The FLIGHT IS NOT OVER until you stop moving, so remember to keep straight with the rudder and keep the wings level.

That's all there is to it! Works for any aircraft.

[tecman]

If you are very new to flying a MINIMAL amount of rote recall is useful, if it helps you keep your eyes outside the cockpit and allows you to get the feel of the aircraft. The 'recipe' approach is certainly over-doing it but remembering, for example, the appropriate downwind checklist is a good idea and keeps your eyes in the right place.

The other thing that many instructors stress, and which newcomers find hard to master, is the apparently simple "glance". For example, at about 300' I raise the flaps in my bug smasher and simultaneously glance at three critical and conveniently positioned P&T gauges on the panel. Similarly, on final, and while practising gaining the intuition mentioned by others, just glance at the ASI. The trick is 'sensor integration' from a wide range of sources, only some of which are on the aircraft panel.

As you fly more, the glancing habit expands and becomes second nature. For example, if you get an instrument rating, you typically find yourself intuitively doing a bit of glancing at e.g. the DG in circuit turns, just to confirm your visual picture. Use whatever information you have, be flexible and don't fixate.

[foxmoth]

Sorry to say it, but some here are IMHO talking WAY past this guys experience level - all this stuff about "feeling" the aircraft is great, but in my experience there are very few low experience pilots that will be able to do it. At this stage I would say that doing things by rote works well so LEARN all the bits about "I do this here, next I do this". Feeling what the aircraft is doing is easy when you can do it, but most people cannot learn this sort of flying straight off. Things such as teaching people with the instruments covered helps, but they still need the basics such as level from a climb, allow the aircraft to accelerate and then reduce power.:ok:

[Private jet]

& remember a checklist is to make sure that the essential items have been done. It should NOT be used as a "to do" list.

[mary meagher]

As promised, a recent thread about how to make good landings, full of excellent advice!