Selling seats on positioning / ferry flights

[davidjohnson6]

I realise that from time to time, passenger airlines need to move aircraft while empty around their network to have them in the right place to be available to transport fare paying passengers for various reasons. Apart from aircraft maintenance and crew training purposes, a planned-in-advance example might be a specific sports event with fans expecting to spend more than a day at a specific venue.

Clearly positioning flights flown at very short notice to pick up stranded pax because an aircraft is inoperable somewhere else in the network will never have fare paying customers. However, when a positioning flight is known well in advance and occurs over a route of non-trivial distance, what are the commercial realities around trying to sell some seats to the public in the hope of raising a bit of extra revenue ? I realise that insurance is not free, EU261 generally makes things less flexible, and passengers cannot be given seats without cabin crew being on duty, all of which increases cost beyond a purely positioning flight

Is it generally a hopeless cause, or can an airline flying an aircraft under 100 seats at small airports sometimes reasonably hope to end up better off than never having tried to sell seats in the first place ?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Some executive jet operators contract brokers to market their empty positioning legs to the public at heavily discounted rates. Can make for a day out with a difference if there is a group of you and you're prepared to be flexible.

[alm1]

I have been on a few such flights. Usually airlines use this more for marketing reasons than for generating revenue operating short domestic hops.

Although once it was a full 757 which offered a VNO-BUD for ~60 eur return. I think the charter airline (now defunct Aurela) managed to sell out the plane because there were no direct flights VNO-BUD and the timings were very convienient for a weekend trip. Still I am not sure they made money by selling those tickets instead of just simply positioning the plane for that charter order.

[easyflyer83]

In many way, airlines already do since base to base positioning is often done via aircraft swaps down route.

[Heathrow Harry]

seen it done a couple of times - normally when an airline already flies the routes so all the paperwork is easy

Often it's because they have a large block booking and it's effectively a charter for that Group of passengers (cruise passengers, ship/rig crew, football fans etc). The flight is paid for and its easier to add it as a one-off scheduled flight and maybe hoover up a few more of the SLF

[Angry Rebel]

Presumably a key factor is whether there are cabin crew on the flight? If not, can't have revenue passengers?

[DaveReidUK]

Presumably a key factor is whether there are cabin crew on the flight? If not, can't have revenue passengers?

Correct (as the OP pointed out in his post).

[El Bunto]

What boggles my mind about positioning flights is that it's often the smaller airlines that are the most prolific.

For example this week alone Cityjet have had two empty positioning flights out of Dublin ( one to Edinburgh and one to Cardiff ) to be in the right place to operate scheduled flights. That's at least 20,000EUR gone, flying empty seats around.

I understand that small fleets mean less flexibility but you'd think the smaller airlines would have adopted the OP's idea by now to try and claw some revenue back.

Though they probably find some way to blame positioning flights on their customers anyway...

[edi_local]

While I agree that a positioning flight could, in theory, be used to make some revenue for an airline, there is also a chance that with the likes of cityjet, with such small aircraft, may not make that much of a difference.

Passengers mean they have to have an operating crew, and presumably a standby crew should one of the originals not make it. They have to pay for extra fuel, run the risks of delays waiting for baggage/cargo/passengers/airport equipment. They would also need to pay for extra airport facility use at both ends, such as check in desks/machines and baggage hall facilities, gates, ramp vehicles, dispatchers etc. I also wonder if there are insurance cost factors too. It must be cheaper to insure an empty aircraft with some deadhead crew than it is to insure an operating flight. Add on to that the cost of catering for the passengers who, I believe, still get given out for free on cityjet.


I can see why it may just be easier for them to send an empty aircraft to ensure it's at the other end ready for the next flight.

[Porrohman]

The rugby six nations championship provides opportunities for many such flights. By way of example, when France or Ireland are playing at Murrayfield, there are many empty positioning flights to and from Paris / Dublin. This provides a potential opportunity for Edinburgh locals to have a cheap weekend in Paris / Dublin but I've rarely seen these flights advertised. Maybe they are sold via inclusive tour companies rather direct by the airlines?

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Is it not the case that the cost of the ferry flight is calculated and included when the deal for the charter is done?

[Groundloop]

I believe for a short time Palmair had a contract to provide a flight out of Dublin to some sun destination and they sold seats on the Bournemouth Dublin positioning flight and return.

[stab3.5up]

They did as did czech airlines too and from PRG. Never more than a dozen or so passenger's due to very odd flying times and days of operation. But a bum on a sest us still a bum on aseat paying

[GMH]

Often airports provide lower landing charges etc for ferry flights (usually 50-75% of full fee) so as soon as one ticket is sold on what was a ferry flight the costs to the airline increase.

It also potentially adds the need for cleaning, steps/airbridge, gates, baggage handling etc. The costs soon mount up for what is an unneccessary inconvenience.
Plus, as has already been said, the cost of the ferry flight is already taken into account in the price of the one-way charter unless it is already company policy to place the empty leg with a broker.