Qantas 737 Rear Stairs

[partial aviator]

I understand passengers want to get off quickly but the trial of rear stairs at Syd seems crazy to me ...
Just interested in other views .

[muffman]

I'm not aware of the trial at all, but I would suggest it has a lot less to do with what the passengers want than what the company want in terms of cutting turnaround time.

[c100driver]

Rear stair de-boarding and boarding not new.

Jetstar and Air NZ this is SOP domestically and Internationally at NZQN, NZDN.

Was standard in Honolulu as well.

[NSEU]

Is it really that efficient/sensible?

I can't imagine how expensive these custom airstairs units are (including maintenance).
Additional drivers' wages
Who monitors the back doors when the aircraft is loaded and unloaded (door/airstairs clearance)?
Additional groundstaff for directing passengers past the wings (Are most terminal buildings in front of the nose?)
Passengers subjected to noise from the APU.
Passengers deplaning at the rear may slow down catering staff at the rear.
Toilet and water trucks are sometimes the first to get to the aircraft on some aircraft types. Would airstairs prevent easy access? Would the pax be subjected to the smell?

[c100driver]

Yes it is.

Manual wheel stairs, no driver required and cost about 20K per set.
One cabin crew in the rear and one in the front.
One extra staff member on the ground and good ground marking is essential.
APU inlet on the other side so no worse than walking out to a TP on the ramp.
Airstair does not impede water or honey cart operation.

It is not a problem and is very efficent.

Like I said it is the normal operation for A320 and B737 in NZ with both Jetstar and Air NZ.

[TWT]

VA use rear stairs for 738's at many capital cities in Oz,why not QF ?
mm
mmm
mmm
mmm

[Galdom]

Used to do it back in the NAC days in NZ when I was a kid though only for deplaning, definitely nothing new.

[morno]

Why not? They're not exactly the first airline in Australia to do it. Makes sense to me.

morno

[Typhoon650]

Virgin used to (probably still do) it at Canberra. Pax were off in 5 mins easy.
Probably why 30min turnarounds were possible for them.
Mind you, I've seen a Virgin 737 come in to Canberra late and with big effort by all, turned around in 20 mins or less. Rear stairs definitely helped make it possible.

[Southern handler]

Five years ago QF were using rear stairs in CBR for non aerobridge flights. Would sometimes only be a deboard as the ramp cleaners would move stairs onto the next aircraft but worked well and really helped turnarounds

[HeSaidWhat]

I have vivid memories of sitting in a cockpit in Shannon watching a Ryan Air 73 loading pax up the forward stairs while exiting pax were still coming down the rear stairs. They achieved 15 min turnarounds and thus great aircraft utilisation.

[Transition Layer]

Rear stairs are used by QF on the 737 at all the regional outports too. PHE/KTA/ZNE etc

[-438]

QF 737's used to have high utilisation until it was decided to start 2 entirely new operations (Jetstar & Jetconnect).
After losing the majority of the back of the clock Tasman to Jetconnect & much of the red eye flying to Jetstar such as Bali, Jakarta, Darwin, Perth etc. utilisation was down markedly.
Another significant way in which mainline has been undermined in order to make the startups look successful.

[Going Boeing]

The main reasons that QF haven't used the rear stairs are: 1. Wet weather issues (in particular, business types who don't want their suits wet), 2. extra staff required on tarmac for OH&S issues and 3. delaying catering access to the rear galley.

LCC's have much smaller catering requirements and thus don't have a problem with pax disembarking through the rear galley.

The push to achieve higher aircraft utilisation might be the driving force behind why they are re-looking at this. Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for a premium carrier to have pax descending/climbing stairs and be subject to the noise and weather issues on the tarmac.

[onehitwonder]

each set of stairs $15K

[morno]

Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for a premium carrier to have pax descending/climbing stairs and be subject to the noise and weather issues on the tarmac

Isn't a problem at places such as:

Mount Isa
Hamilton Island?
Gold Coast
Rockhampton (for the 717)
Alice Springs
Karratha?
Broome?


If Mr Business is really concerned about getting his suit dirty, then he can still use the aerobridge.

morno

[Mustangbaz]

Va have always used rear stairs at ports with them (90%) and only use them when it's not raining (can be icy, windy, freezing, but not raining) and as for the J class pax, why would they tramp all the way to the back door? It's used for people aft of the overwing exits

[TBM-Legend]

I used to love the grand entrance up the staircase on the B727 and DC-9...

[Capn Bloggs]

Did this at Xmas time. We were allocated the last row, so dutifully used the rear stairs. Quite a few pax came in the wrong door and there was much "passing in the isle" as some went forward and some came to the back. I thought at the time it'd be easier boarding by rows through the front door. At least all the pax are going in the same direction when finding their seat.

Disembarking is another matter. Definitely quicker with rear stairs as well.

[spelling_nazi]

Trial underway in adl only at one gate.

If successful, will only be used in fine weather.

[ACMS]

They need a trial, poor Qantas they are so different to others!!

[1746]

Better to de-board from the front only even though the rear stairs are in.
Allowing the cleaners to enter and clean from the back as the punters move forward.
This doesn't impede catering and allows any maintenance issues to be addressed in the rear cabin before waiting for all pax to leave.
Boarding could usually utilise both doors.

[Capt Fathom]

They need a trial, poor Qantas they are so different to others!!

Sounds about right!

One and a half page discussion on using the steps at the rear!!

A wasted mass debate! :E

[Capn Bloggs]

And you two mugs would just have to be reading it, wouldn't ya?!

[LiveryMan]

Rear stairs are used a lot by Ryanair in Europe. I fly them often enough from Edinburgh. I almost always board and de-board via the rear stairs.

[A and C]

All the loco's in Europe use rear steps, one advantage is that it reduces the risk of tail tipping if there is a blockage de-boarding in the middle of the cabin and a lot of pax ( weight ) is stuck at the back with all the pax gone from the front of the cabin.

[Fliegenmong]

Isn't a problem at places such as:
...............
Gold Coast
..............

Well, yeah Kinda is when it purports to be an International Port, and the 6th biggest city in the Country!! When it's Raining!!! FFS!!!

I go back far enough to remember the TAA / Ansett 'sheds' NE of where the present terminal is now at OOL.....I also remember climbing up DC-9 & B727 'proper' airstairs...now you couldn't make an aerobridge for them.....but nowadays?...it's all this $$$$$.....what would the average bogan know??

I really don't mind walking around day glo orange wheelie bins and hastily erected orange triangular flags on a string to a side mounted rear door,as long as it's not raining, it's kinda like a 'walk around' without the detail...but sometimes,...if you're going to proclaim 'World Class', you may need to live up to 'World Class'

[partial aviator]

I thought it was surprising because they went to great lengths to have a Dash 8 hooking up to an Aerobridge ( great idea ) and now consider walking half a 737 outside ...
I certainly agree there's nothing unusual about it.

[Derfred]

one advantage is that it reduces the risk of tail tipping if there is a blockage de-boarding in the middle of the cabin and a lot of pax ( weight ) is stuck at the back with all the pax gone from the front of the cabin.

You got a source for this? QF have been de-boarding a fleet of up to 75 B738's via front door for the past 15 years without any tail tipping events! Although sometimes the nose oleo lifts quite a bit with 80 pax still standing rear of the overwings. I think there would be a serious certification issue if there was a risk of tail tipping...

EDIT: I have heard of one in Malaga but that was apparently caused by a rogue aerobridge that lifted the nose of the aircraft by lifting the L1 door. Auto level fail or something. I am also aware that there is a cargo unloading policy in place in QF to ensure that front cargo is not unloaded prior to aft cargo. I don't know if that is a QF policy or a manufacturer policy. But I have not heard of any issues related to pax boarding/de-boarding.

[Capt Claret]

Fancy QF management making such an absurd decision, inspite of the collective wisdom of PPRuNE. Virgin & JQ should be reading this thread too, because obviously they're wrong too.

For my money, I wish the 71 had come with the Ventral Stairs option! :p

[spelling_nazi]

You mock, but history has shown had AJ and GD before him listened
to the wisdom of pprune, billions of dollars lost in costly , ill thought out decisions would still be in the piggy bank.

Examples:

Lack of 777's
Ordering 'A' model 787's and a380's
Jetstar anything (other than a small scale leisure destination only domestic operation)
The "rivers of gold" from Asia.

Etc

[ACMS]

No Clarry, Virgin have used rear stairs since they started in 2000, QF seems to think they must have a trial to do what others have done for years.......

[c100driver]

And JQ has been using rear stairs since the day they started domestic operations in New Zealand.

[Keg]

QF haven't used rear stairs in sydney, Melbourne and most other capital city airports for at least 20 years. I reckon a trial to determine exact manpower requirements, customer feedback, logistical issues, security issues and so on is a great idea. IE, not every bay in sydney is going to be able to do it. How do pax get downstairs after having boarding pass scanned.

So I reckon the trial isn't to see if it works per se, it's to see what needs to be done to expand the concept more widely.

If QF launched straight into it and it was a bit of a bun fight (as I'm sure it was for JQ when they first started but with only a few aircraft the impacts weren't quite so significant) then the PPRUNE crowd would be shellacking them saying 'why didn't they have a trial first'. :rolleyes: :ugh:

[donpizmeov]

c100driver and ACMS,

Are you saying that Virgin and JQ have been taking it in the rear for ages?

[TWT]

:hmm:

There's always one isn't there ?

[rog747]

ummm:zzz:
excuse me we have had the 737 in the UK since 1968 (Britannia)

why does QF need to trial using a set of steps on the back door in 2015!!

its laughable - is this really news lol

2 sets of steps works wonderfully well in obtaining quick orderly turnarounds and our charter carriers since jets were invented always nearly had 2 sets of steps - boarding by seat number - god this is 40 odd years on!!!

737 fwd airstairs and rear set manual steps
1-11 fwd and aft airstairs (self sufficient) as was many 727's too if they had fwd airstairs
DC-9 self sufficient

707 and DC-8 2 sets of steps

[Keg]

why does QF need to trial using a set of steps on the back door in 2015!!


It'd be really nice if people would read previous comments before putting their own two bobs worth forward.

Three answers previously and you had a half decent explanation. :ugh:

[Capn Bloggs]

Don't worry Keg, he's from Dorset, wherever that is... One house down the road from Corset, perhaps?

[Compylot]

Yes Gentlemen, another robust debate on yet another important aspect of the intricacies of operating modern jet transport aircraft in this age within Australia.

There are many factors to consider when using rear stairs, efficiency, cost, psychological impact, TEM, CRM, weather conditions, local airport operating procedures, ground staff training, cabin crew training, updating manuals etc etc.

I'm sure we could go on for another 3 or more pages, yet I am concerned that we haven't had an AIP or Jeppesen quote thus far? Surely someone could come up with some relevant regulations to link in with said topic?

Anyway, look forward to ingesting with great interest some more opinions, contexts, historical (and hysterical haha!) stories, standard operating procedures, personal experiences and in 2 years from now a brief revival of the thread to find out ultimately how the all important trial progressed :ok:

[rog747]

giggles LOL

Dorset's lovely - Poole harbour nearby here operated the Empire flying boats before and during the war BTW

i am loooking forward to my first visit to Oz next year - QF founders museum
and the red rock etc

AND i want to do a Qantas 747 Antarctica flight too if they are still running :ok:

i am sure 2 steps will be used on my internal flights

best wishes :)

[Going Boeing]

Those who are strongly advocating the use of the tarmac & rear stairs are forgetting one thing - Qantas isn't a LCC so it's an invalid argument saying that what works for a LCC should also work for Qantas. I'm sure that if QF management were to consult their loyal pax, the huge majority would say they prefer airbridges over tarmac & stairs.

[framer]

one advantage is that it reduces the risk of tail tipping if there is a blockage de-boarding in the middle of the cabin and a lot of pax ( weight ) is stuck at the back with all the pax gone from the front of the cabin.
....yes yes and it also reduces the risk of everyone being burnt alive in the air bridge as half of them will be safely out on the tarmac.

[PlaneWatcher]

As a SLF on both Virgin and Qantas, I have no problems using the rear stairs on the occasions when Virgin offers them and I am towards the rear - very often in Adelaide, not that often in Sydney. End result is I am in the terminal a lot quicker, and get a good snort of Jet A1 on the way.

[Capn Bloggs]

"I love the smell of AVTUR in the morning..."

[sierra5913]

...and get a good snort of Jet A1 on the way.

This cannot be understated.

[Gas Bags]

I haven't logged on for a while but my gosh when I did I was quite simply aghast at sighting this thread purporting the use of rear stairs on QANTAS aircraft. Who would have ever thought such a thing would happen to such a fine airline. They really have sunk to a new low. I for one simply will not engage in such a draconian action as boarding an aircraft via the use of external stairs like some common chav! What is next? Will they expect me to fly with Virgin, or dare I say it, Jetstar?


What is going on at the upper levels of this company??? What will it take to right these wrongs??? My guess is a smoking hole in the ground is the only thing that will get the board to sit up and take notice that rear stairs should not be used in a full service legacy carrier!!! The swiss cheese holes are lining up!! QANTAS you have lost this customer whilst ever these types of things are taking place....

[NSEU]

Qantas has what some might call over-the-top occupational health and safety procedures that might not be found on LCC's. The guy putting the stairs in would probably have to don a safety harness and attach a lanyard to the stairs before opening the door. More time wasting and cost.

:ugh: OH&S says I need a crash helmet for this wall

[Captain Gidday]

And of course every person on the ramp needs a Hi Vis vest.
OH&S Rules!

[TWT]

Any updates ? Can't ask the Townsville refueller,he's on holidays.I await the next exciting installment of the 'rear stairs' saga.

[spelling_nazi]

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/540/sLArr1.jpg (http://imageshack.com/f/f0sLArr1j)

[OzSync]

Thanks Compylot, I needed a chuckle this morning :)

[Capn Bloggs]

Spelling Nazi, I know times are tight but could you spend a little more and make your pic a bit bigger so we can see it? :}

[TWT]

Thanks for the update spelling nazi :ok:

[spelling_nazi]

Click on pic, pic gets bigger.

If I put bigger pic, mods get moody. :-)

Ps . The pic is the one and only Townsville refueller if you hadn't realised.

[TWT]

Must be back from holidays