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sitigeltfel
15th Feb 2015, 10:15
Nearly a day now since the incidents first started and no-one (as far as I can see) has made any reference to them here.

Are we becoming so inured to these events that they are no longer worthy of mention?

JFZ90
15th Feb 2015, 10:19
I had the same thought.

Interesting to see what details on the suspect will be revealed.

And what action will emerge as a response.

Far from promoting religion, these acts maybe achieving the opposite effect.

tony draper
15th Feb 2015, 10:42
Just heard the Danish PM say the attack was Politically motivated,Politically??:confused:

sitigeltfel
15th Feb 2015, 11:25
Just heard the Danish PM say the attack was Politically motivated,Politically??:confused:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9LwrmORkyoctcKOL5t9gIFv1FewErCptUd5TJKRO Ds_lLhAO9

tony draper
15th Feb 2015, 13:27
You can reason with people who have a political beef,you cannot reason with people who have a supernatural beef.
:suspect:

wings folded
15th Feb 2015, 13:38
I want a slice of supernatural beef with some creamy mashed spuds and some proper mustard, or horseradish

toffeez
15th Feb 2015, 13:43
Supernatural beef is what Hindus believe in.

Holy Cow!

G-CPTN
15th Feb 2015, 16:02
BBC News - Copenhagen shootings: Police kill 'gunman' after two attacks (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31475803)

JFZ90
15th Feb 2015, 16:23
The gunman shot dead by police after a double terror attack on a cafe and a synagogue in Copenhagen that claimed two lives was known to Danish intelligence, the head of the country’s security service has said.

Jens Madsen said the killer may have been “inspired by militant Islamist propaganda issued by IS [Islamic State] and other terror organisations”, but it was not yet known whether he had travelled to Iraq or Syria before the attacks.

The suspect was from Copenhagen but has not been named. He had been “on the radar” of the intelligence services, police said.

I do not want to be accused of islamophobia, but there is a real problem here isn't there.

Education wise it is no doubt too late for the current generation, but should the writing be on the wall for faith schools etc.? Of course all religious indoctrination would have to be treated equally when being carefully extricated from the core school curriculm; perhaps it could be shoehorned into combined RE/history lessons to retain the cultural aspects.

In June 2014, the Observer newspaper reported the results of a survey indicating that 58% of voters believe faith schools should not be funded by the state or should be abolished

OFSO
15th Feb 2015, 16:40
I do not want to be accused of islamophobia, but there is a real problem here isn't there.

No problem, he said "may". Wearing an untrimmed beard, carrying an AK-47 and shouting "Allah is Great" while running into a synagogue or a shop selling Kosher food isn't any guide to whether a person is a terrorist or not.

Sitigeltfel's picture says it all.

Interesting article in the UK "Sunday Times" today on how the IRA are raising funds through smuggling of unpaid-duty cigarettes into the UK. I can see problems coming up with them quite soon......

Krystal n chips
15th Feb 2015, 16:51
how the IRA are raising funds through smuggling of unpaid-duty cigarettes into the UK. I can see problems coming up with them quite soon

And what problems would they be then ?.....are you really daft enough to think, or possibly even hope, that the IRA are going to resume activities in NI?

The so called splinter groups however are a different matter and clearly do pose a threat but they are not in the same league as the PIRA were.

Siti....did you start this thread because you were feeling a little lonely then ?

Flybiker7000
15th Feb 2015, 17:41
Just heard the Danish PM say the attack was Politically motivated,Politically??

Politicians talk politics and the PM isn't more out of track than the american Congress wich lately voted(!) for the reason of global warming! :-o
I'm sure most of us have put a nationality on the attacker (after all he raided a synagogue too) but untill now there haven't been presented any evidence in that direction, wich probably is what the PM supports by not declaring religious motivation :-/ Once the attackers identity may(!) be presented as arabic, the definition of the attack might be changed!
Beside, the investigation and persuade of possible co-attackers are still on and the statement of the PM might make the work more easy for the police and civil intelligence until the case is closed!

Following the latest news: The police calls the incidence 'possible terror-attack'!

BTW: Have any noticed the naming of the location of the first shooting: 'The Powderkeg' :-o

toffeez
15th Feb 2015, 18:04
Better check out Guy Fox news

sitigeltfel
15th Feb 2015, 18:05
News reports say the attacker is a 22yo, known to police for violence, and "born in Denmark", as if that means anything.

One of my cats was born in a stable, but that doesn't make it a horse!

Mr Chips
15th Feb 2015, 18:21
I'm sure most of us have put a nationality on the attacker (after all he raided a synagogue too)
Once the attackers identity may(!) be presented as arabic, the definition of the attack might be changed!
News reports say the attacker is a 22yo, known to police for violence, and "born in Denmark"

Danish then.

Mr Chips
15th Feb 2015, 18:32
He was Danish. Little bit awkward to nuke your own country.

Wingswinger
15th Feb 2015, 18:40
Let's reserve that judgement until we know his name, religion and background. I suspect that, if he had a non-Danish name and turns out to have been an adherent of a particularly nasty form of the Religion of Love and Peace, a goodly number of Danes may not think of him as a fellow countryman rather in the way that many of us in the UK do not think of our own home-bred terrorists as fellow countrymen.

meadowrun
15th Feb 2015, 18:49
Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein.


Yep, Danish alright.


I am reminded of this saying...you can make the appropriate substitutions..


You can take an Englishman out of England
But you can't take the English out of an Englishman.


He was raised in the culture of the land his parents fled, not Denmark's.


Faith based schooling should be removed. If teaching in a faith is required it should be done after-school or on the weekends or at Sunday School etc. School curriculums should be totally for education in the basic learning requirements, Reading, writing, science, geography, history, maths et al. To include religious training in mainstream education is an anachronistic fallback to medieval times when only the clergy had the knowledge to teach and the church held sway.

JFZ90
15th Feb 2015, 18:58
His nationality is not really likely to be the issue here is it?

It may be revealing to understand a bit more about Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein and his upbringing, education and religious activities.

This Moroccan guy, Brother Rachid, makes some interesting points.

K75GsjXGXxM

Nemrytter
15th Feb 2015, 19:02
I suspect that, if he had a non-Danish name and turns out to have been an adherent of a particularly nasty form of the Religion of Love and Peace, a goodly number of Danes may not think of him as a fellow countryman rather in the way that many of us in the UK do not think of our own home-bred terrorists as fellow countrymen.Whereas I suspect the Danes will act like they usually do, like thoughtful and considerate human beings. They'll reflect on what could've caused this person, who was born and raised in their country, to become such a social misfit, such an angry young man, that he committed these terrible crimes.
They will probably blame themselves for failing to integrate him as much as they blame him for the act. Happily, Danes (unlike many on here) do not have tiny, bigoted minds and can accept that not all Muslims are crazy Jihadis.

What makes me think that? The fact I've lived in Denmark for a quarter of my life and am married to a Dane. Oh, and the suspect in these crimes was killed about 50ft from my house, I was woken at 4am today by armed police at my door. Everyone around here, including the Muslims, are disgusted by what this terrorist did.

OFSO
15th Feb 2015, 19:05
are you really daft enough to think, or possibly even hope, that the IRA are going to resume activities in NI?

And are you "really daft enough" not to know Real IRA terrorist ops continue unabated in Northern Ireland, so do not need to "resume".

In February 2014 the RIRA sent seven letter bombs to British Army recruitment offices in south-east England; the first time republicans had struck in Britain since 2001. The following month, a PSNI landrover was hit by an explosively formed projectile in Belfast. A civilian car was also hit by debris, but there were no injuries. The Real IRA claimed responsibility. There have been several incidents of cars packed with explosives left in public places, and many siezures of weapons unto and including RPG's.

In 2014, Forbes Magazine estimated the RIRA's annual turnover at $50 million. According to police in Northern Ireland, the main sources of the Real IRA's funding are illegal fuel operations and various smuggling activities.

MG23
15th Feb 2015, 19:33
Whereas I suspect the Danes will act like they usually do, like thoughtful and considerate human beings. They'll reflect on what could've caused this person, who was born and raised in their country, to become such a social misfit, such an angry young man, that he committed these terrible crimes.

Then, after they're done navel-gazing, what will they actually do about it?

sitigeltfel
15th Feb 2015, 19:43
Meanwhile, around 200 graves were desecrated over the weekend in a Jewish cemetery at Sarre-Union, in the Bas-Rhin.

Tombes profanées à Sarre-Union: "les dégâts sont importants", déplore le maire (http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/des-centaines-de-tombes-profanees-au-cimetiere-juif-de-sarre-union-863795.html)

This is not the first time that the Jewish cemetery in Sarre-Union is the subject of desecration. In 1988, sixty Jewish headstones were overturned, and in 2001, 54 graves were vandalized.Vermin.

Nemrytter
15th Feb 2015, 20:24
Then, after they're done navel-gazing, what will they actually do about it?Well that depends what they decide is the problem, doesn't it?
I would imagine they'll try to make a better effort to integrate foreigners - currently a lot of immigrants are isolated in one part of the city with little contact with the rest of Denmark.
For me it's a good thing as house prices are cheap, for some of the immigrants - those who don't fit in with their peers - it poses a problem.

MG23
15th Feb 2015, 20:29
I would imagine they'll try to make a better effort to integrate foreigners - currently a lot of immigrants are isolated in one part of the city with little contact with the rest of Denmark.

And how will they do that?

'Make a better effort to integrate foreigners' is a media sound-bite, not a policy. What will they do when some foreigners--and, remember, this guy wasn't a 'foreigner', he was supposedly a 'Dane'--refuse to integrate?

Nemrytter
15th Feb 2015, 20:41
'Make a better effort to integrate foreigners' is a media sound-bite, not a policy.It's both.
What will they do when some foreigners--and, remember, this guy wasn't a 'foreigner', he was supposedly a 'Dane'--refuse to integrate?I have no idea, I'm not a political theorist.
So far the city has been purposefully placing most refugees into one area of the city. For one thing I'd expect that to change.

All I know is that the vast majority of Copenhageners aren't the reactionary crusaders that seem to inhabit this place and, as a result, will be taking a much more rational approach to things.

Flybiker7000
15th Feb 2015, 20:43
In the evening news today the definition had changed to 'definitely a terrorist act' by the PM herself!

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th Feb 2015, 20:51
Should Muslims Integrate into the West? :: Middle East Quarterly (http://www.meforum.org/1761/should-muslims-integrate-into-the-west)

A Muslim can also be a citizen of a Western nation state, yet the Western nation state is tolerated only because it is bound to dissolve and because its weaknesses may be of use to the Muslim cause.

MG23
15th Feb 2015, 21:01
It's both.

No, it's not. How do you 'better integrate' into Western culture, people who think that women should wear tents if they don't want to be raped, or that murdering cartoonists is acceptable behaviour?

So far the city has been purposefully placing most refugees into one area of the city. For one thing I'd expect that to change.

This guy wasn't a refugee. He was born in Denmark. Why are you talking about refugees, other than to divert attention from the real problems?

All I know is that the vast majority of Copenhageners aren't the reactionary crusaders that seem to inhabit this place and, as a result, will be taking a much more rational approach to things.

So, nothing of any use, then?

rh200
15th Feb 2015, 21:02
Well the most import thing first.

Sitigeltfel's picture says it all.

You have that right, wish we had a PM like that.:E I do hope Obamas not around whilst she is doing that:p

FOX's quote.
A Muslim can also be a citizen of a Western nation state, yet the Western nation state is tolerated only because it is bound to dissolve and because its weaknesses may be of use to the Muslim cause.

Fairly basic stuff that follows a logical natural trend. The question is will it be that way. The numbers don't lie, so demographic projections will tell the story

meadowrun
15th Feb 2015, 21:10
Yes there is a current demographic trending but the real question is...


Will a western country ever let itself change into or be dominated by Islamics ?

MG23
15th Feb 2015, 21:18
Will a western country ever let itself change into or be dominated by Islamics ?

How would they stop it?

meadowrun
15th Feb 2015, 21:21
Three guesses....last two don't count.

tony draper
15th Feb 2015, 21:29
Well I tell yer what, lets just pretend we are at war with them not because of religion but because we just dont like the stupid feckin way they dress.
:uhoh:

pax britanica
15th Feb 2015, 22:06
Uk France Belgium Denmark seems to be very much a western European problem. Why no issues in Eastern Europe, is it because they are pro extreme Islam, i would doubt that given the history of those places, or is it that renegade immigrants know that they are likely to get very short shrift from Police or citizens in the likes of Poland,Czech rep etc.

I am not being islamophobic and do not believe that more than a tiny minority of Uk muslims would do anything like this but we just cannot have a situation where either events or social groups are targets of random mass murder and a few laws and their implementation need a few tweeks to better protect all of us from the actions of lunatic few.

Mr Optimistic
15th Feb 2015, 22:08
The young need hope in the future and a purpose in life. The combination of high youth unemployment and a wave of religious revival, plus maybe a sense of racial exclusion, and hey presto.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th Feb 2015, 22:21
The racial exclusion is self-imposed.

M.Mouse
15th Feb 2015, 22:47
Excerpts from Enoch Powell's April 20, 1968 address to the General Meeting of the West Midlands Area Conservative Political Centre (commonly called "Rivers of Blood"):

Here is a decent, ordinary fellow-Englishman, who in broad daylight in my own town says to me, his Member of Parliament, that the country will not be worth living in for his children. I simply do not have the right to shrug my shoulders and think about something else. What he is saying, thousands and hundreds of thousands are saying and thinking – not throughout Great Britain, perhaps, but in the areas that are already undergoing the total transformation to which there is no parallel in a thousand years of English history.........

.........We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre. So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancées whom they have never seen.........


.........This does not mean that the immigrant and his descendants should be elevated into a privileged or special class or that the citizen should be denied his right to discriminate in the management of his own affairs between one fellow-citizen and another or that he should be subjected to an inquisition as to his reasons and motives for behaving in one lawful manner rather than another..........

Enoch Powell argued that journalists who urged the government to pass anti-discrimination laws were "of the same kidney and sometimes on the same newspapers which year after year in the 1930s tried to blind this country to the rising peril which confronted it." Powell said that such legislation would be used to discriminate against the indigenous population and that it would be like "throwing a match on to gunpowder." Powell described what he thought the position of the indigenous population would be:

“For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country. They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. On top of this, they now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by Act of Parliament; a law which cannot, and is not intended to, operate to protect them or redress their grievances, is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions.”

Powell argued that although "many thousands" of immigrants wanted to integrate, he contended that the majority did not, and that some had vested interests in fostering racial and religious differences "with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population"

Powell's peroration of the speech gave rise to its popular title. He quotes the Sibyl prophesies in the epic poem Aeneid, 6, 86–87, of "wars, terrible wars, / and the Tiber foaming with much blood."

“As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood". That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the century. Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal."


Full text here. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html)

Anybody want to try putting the genie back in the bottle?

Norman Deplume
15th Feb 2015, 23:24
Meadowrun has it,

That was when people looked at the stars and thought they were windows to "heaven" or some such bolix.

Look how controlling religion (any religion) has been back in the bad old days. Luckily we grew out of it.

Burned at the stake, Spanish Inquisition etc, you're a witch....I mean really...FFS....Still goes on in Saudi by the way...death for being a sorcerer....:ugh:

Since then we have come up with a number of facts: They are stars and they live in space, where we have satellites and....

Norman Deplume
15th Feb 2015, 23:33
I see my earlier diatribe has already been deleted.....

Please take the below as a massive sweeping generalisation:

Actually, the first generation have contributed massively to the UK. They have set up businesses, they are grateful to be in the UK (Think Uganda for one example).

2nd generation..sort of

3rd generation..no

4th generation....they hate us and want to change our way of life.

Again, not all 4th generation hate us, just the ones that I have met.....

And not all 1st generation are good guys.....just the ones that I have met....

So I am biased based upon my experience

megan
16th Feb 2015, 06:07
Wonder how effective this tack will be long term? Brings a smile to the face just the same and worthy of a cheer.

tVTBJ0GBtCo

sitigeltfel
16th Feb 2015, 06:15
Questions need to be asked as to how an armed Islamist terrorist was able to get anywhere near a synagogue just nine hours after carrying out his first attack. I would have thought a ring of steel would have been placed round the building.

Andy_S
16th Feb 2015, 08:50
All I know is that the vast majority of Copenhageners aren't the reactionary crusaders that seem to inhabit this place and, as a result, will be taking a much more rational approach to things.

And guess what. The Islamo-nutters will kill you as happily as they'd kill us.

Uk France Belgium Denmark seems to be very much a western European problem. Why no issues in Eastern Europe, is it because they are pro extreme Islam……

No. It’s because they simply don’t have significant sized muslim communities. Why? Because immigrants from muslim countries know that they’ll get a better life in Western Europe – benefits, housing, health, education, large communities of their own, and governments which are happy to accommodate their cultural foibles……

svhar
16th Feb 2015, 08:51
A quick search shows four synagogues in Copenhagen. With a limited number of policemen, guarding one minority group instead of crowded public places, like railway stations and airports, makes perfect sense. When a mad killer is at large. The Danish police did very well, as did the French police in Paris.

Synagogues in Copenhagen - Shuls in Copenhagen - Jewish Temples in Copenhagen (http://www.maven.co.il/synagogues/C3377Y41538RX)

Nemrytter
16th Feb 2015, 08:53
Hello JetII

Effluent Man
16th Feb 2015, 09:04
The IRA situation is a good example of how this needs to go. Thirty years ago if an IRA/INLA man being pursued by the army had knocked on the door of a republican chances are he would not have just been given shelter but feted.

If it happened today there is a very good chance of a surreptitious phone call to the PSNI. Unfortunately whereas the IRA had a set of grievances that could be addressed Islam and it's splinter groups don't. The only deal is the complete surrender of everyone else. If that happened they would then begin to murder each other over whose cousin sat nearer to Mohammed on his death bed.

The best argument I have seen is for the closure of faith schools. I would also offer generous cash incentives for those already here to go home. Ten grand in Pakistan is big money. Or they could go to Syria of course.

SMT Member
16th Feb 2015, 09:28
I would have thought a ring of steel would have been placed round the building.

The security measures put in place worked as intended, as in the perpetrator was denied access to his intended targets at the Synagogue. It did cost the life of the security guard, which is of course very sad.

But you'd be very wrong to think the Danes would succumb to knee-jerk reactions such as placing a 'ring of steel' around anything. There were two armed police officers and a civilian guard on site, as well as several other police officers in the general vicinity. They did their job, and did so on a very professional level.

Andy_S
16th Feb 2015, 10:14
Evidence would seem to point against that though, wouldn't it? How many buses have been blown up in DK? How many subway trains? How many planes have been crashed into buildings?

Hardly a fair comparison.

All we have is this deranged gangster who killed people he had a direct beef with, not random people on the street such as me or the vast majority of others living in this city.

Except that's not entirely true, is it. He wasn't just a 'gangster'. And he certainly didn't have a 'direct beef' with the people he actually killed.

Don't get me wrong. I admire your restraint and proportionate response. But I fear you're misguided if you really believe that the sort of people you're dealing with really have much respect for that attitude.

OFSO
16th Feb 2015, 11:58
The IRA situation

Look up Oglaigh na hÉireann (OnH) - the Soldiers of Ireland.

"Over the past five years OnH has been blamed for dozens of attacks including a car-bomb attack on the MI5 HQ."

Of course since the Good Friday Agreement, when A. Blair Esquire brought lasting peace to Ireland, this sort of thing is not reported in the media any more. Or the shootings, beatings, car bombs, mortar attacks, robberies or (for light relief as it were) the rapes.

I can assure you however that there are still pubs along the border where anyone unknown to the locals and speaking with an English accent would be lucky to retain his kneecaps in their original condition.

SMT Member
16th Feb 2015, 12:18
Except that's not entirely true, is it. He wasn't just a 'gangster'. And he certainly didn't have a 'direct beef' with the people he actually killed.

Except that, given the evidence and information currently available, he was nothing but a common thug who had a beef with 'the jews'. He was affiliated with a gang of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants of Arabian persuasion, and in those circles he was known for his hatred of Jews. He was of Palestinian descend, born to a mother and father who immigrated. He had a normal upbringing, and showed some talent as an amateur boxer. He failed to take the final exam in grammar school, and had his application to study IT at uni rejected.

He was not under surveillance by the intelligence service, but held convictions for violence and possession of illegal weapons. He was not known to attend any particular mosque, or even by particularly interested in religion, nor has he been to Iraq or Syria to 'join the cause'. He was not known for any political leanings.

He was, for all intents and purposes, nothing but a maladjusted young man who decided to vent his anger. Luckily there were police officers at both his intended target sites, preventing him from getting closer than the door.

RUCAWO
16th Feb 2015, 12:53
#46 (http://www.pprune.org/8868256-post46.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/556545-copenhagen-shootings-3.html#post8868256)) Effluent Man (http://www.pprune.org/members/225307-effluent-man)




The IRA situation is a good example of how this needs to go. Thirty years ago if an IRA/INLA man being pursued by the army had knocked on the door of a republican chances are he would not have just been given shelter but feted.

If it happened today there is a very good chance of a surreptitious phone call to the PSNI


That is the most hilarious thing I have read for months, just what planet do you live in, Planet Blair ? Have ANY of the Republicans who know exactly who carried out the Omagh bombing ever helped the police, have they ****.

Effluent Man
16th Feb 2015, 15:15
So you long for the "Good old days"? I think most of us would prefer the situation as it is. It wasn't just Blair was it? I think Major started the process.

I seem to recall a time when there were bombs going off all over the place as well as British citizens being murdered with the co operation of security forces. Just a guess,but from your handle and location you were part of the problem.

Mr Chips
16th Feb 2015, 15:54
Did Effluent Man just suggest an RUC officer was "part of the problem"???

Just when you think you've seen everything...

A total of 300 RUC officers have been murdered during the Troubles.The IRA has killed 277, the INLA and IPLO 12 and loyalist terrorists eight. Three were murdered by unknown groups. In addition, four officers were killed by the security forces by mistake and over 9,000 injured during the course of their duties.

Terrorist groups have bombed, shot and beaten RUC officers to death, sometimes killing relatives and other civilians in the process. Levels of stress-related illness have been higher than in any other police force: almost 70 officers have committed suicide, many of them with RUC-issued weapons.
www.royalulsterconstabulary.org (http://www.royalulsterconstabulary.org/memorial.htm)

RUCAWO
16th Feb 2015, 16:13
Brain dead moron comes to mind, my son ,not a police officer, STILL has to carry a personal protection weapon and check his car before use.
No I don't wish for the old days of picking up bits of my friends to put in body bags, being shot at etc, but to use naked trampoliner (google it) Adams words "they haven't gone away you know." I had to move house due to being followed by PIRA AFTER the Good Friday Agreement . Who gave the PIRA on the runs get out of jail free letters?

And most of the so called dissidents are (former) PIRA top dogs, Colin Duffy to name just one .

Well Effluent is just a posh word for shit;)

Effluent Man
16th Feb 2015, 16:30
Your response serves to illustrate the problem better than anything I could say. We have quite lively discussions/debates/disagreements on here, but it usually remains civil. My in laws are from near Liverpool and my wife used to go on Orange parades as a youngster,but it's all bollix to me.

If Paisley,Robinson,Adams and McGuinness can move on I can't see why you can't too.

RUCAWO
16th Feb 2015, 16:38
I can never move on from putting parts of my friend Const Paul Clarke into a body bag, he was a catholic by the way.
Paisley, Robinson, Adams and the rest are only in it for their own gain all of them law breaking scum .
All should have been locked up and the keys thrown away and let the law abiding live in peace.

http://www.u.tv/News/2015/02/16/Police-investigate-report-of-Derry-device-31799

http://www.u.tv/News/2015/02/16/Houses-evacuated-in-north-Belfast-alert-31791

http://www.u.tv/News/2015/02/16/Family-hurt-by-Belfast-memorial-park-attack-31778

http://www.u.tv/News/2015/02/12/Man-shot-in-both-legs-in-alleyway-31515

http://www.u.tv/News/2015/02/07/Shots-fired-at-Co-Tyrone-house-31189

Tell me should the people who did this to 13 people in one attack be allowed to be free or should they spend the rest of their lives in prison ?

http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/unsorted/Friends%20of%20Ulster%20-%20USA%20Scotch%20Irish%20_%20Ulster%20Scots_files/lamonpic.jpg

Effluent Man
16th Feb 2015, 17:03
I can understand the strength of feeling,and I am not saying that I would feel any different if it were my friends and family. It cannot be denied however (And I just viewed the stats for deaths in NI) that things have moved on for the better since the Good Friday Agreement.

The alternative is for it to rumble on year after year killing a few dozen people with the odd IRA/INLA spectacular on the mainland. It can't be denied that the security forces were complicit in some murders, Finucane for one. It has also been comprehensively proven that an officer was responsible for Bloody Sunday by giving orders to shoot unarmed civilans.

If we want to go back that far then the Black and Tans have things to answer for. It's a sad story and one that no group emerges from totally unscathed. I just think what we have now is the best we could reasonably hope for.

vulcanised
16th Feb 2015, 17:48
things have moved on for the better since the Good Friday Agreement.


My friend suggests that only time has moved on.

Effluent Man
16th Feb 2015, 18:12
The thousand or so families that we would have statistically expected to have been bereaved since then might disagree.

RUCAWO
16th Feb 2015, 18:18
Just make the head of ISIS UK deputy prime minister and make terrorism go away .
No difference beween the RJAF pilot burnt to death and the 13 burnt to death in La Mon, the blast didn't kill them the burning petrol did.

Effluent Man
16th Feb 2015, 19:05
Well to begin with ISIS hasn't got a "head" they are a rabble. Secondly giving him Cleggy's job would not stop ISIS. The whole point about the IRA was that they had a grievance, and as such something to negotiate on. Clearly the negotiation should have been done in 1968 before it all kicked off. Then three thousand lives would have ben saved rather than one thousand.

Later I will see if I can find my post where I said that overthrowing Gaddafi would end in tears. But of course,Dave knew best.

JFZ90
16th Feb 2015, 19:38
Evidence would seem to point against that though, wouldn't it? How many buses have been blown up in DK? How many subway trains? How many planes have been crashed into buildings?
All we have is this deranged gangster who killed people he had a direct beef with, not random people on the street such as me or the vast majority of others living in this city. anyway, my point is that the Danes will surely come up with a more intelligent response than the reactionary nonsense that appears on here after such attacks.

Nem - do you consider that any steps to moderate religion could be part of an intelligent response, or is that by your definition 'reactionary nonsense'?





On the NI stuff I think I can see logic in both sides of the argument - yes things have moved on since the GFA, but I also don't expect for one moment for those involved to really move on & forgive. I suspect for the generations affected it is more a case of begrudgingly appreciating the cessation of hostilities; but forgiveness? I don't think I would expect that given some of the terrible things that occurred.

Effluent Man
16th Feb 2015, 20:06
I don't expect them to forgive,it's awful for them whatever side they were on. I was merely making the point that the general situation is better post GFA than before.

Nemrytter
17th Feb 2015, 08:46
Nem - do you consider that any steps to moderate religion could be part of an intelligent response, or is that by your definition 'reactionary nonsense'?Seeing as this young man doesn't seem to have been religious then steps to moderate religion as a response to this would be totally nonsensical.

This guy doesn't seem to have been motivated by religious anger, more 'refugee anger' for being kicked out of Palestine as a child (hence, I imagine, why he targeted a Synagogue).

sitigeltfel
17th Feb 2015, 09:31
kicked out of Palestine as a child (hence, I imagine, why he targeted a Synagogue).

1, Was he not Danish, born and bred?

2, His first target was an attack on free speech, not a Synagogue.

Nemrytter
17th Feb 2015, 09:58
1) Sorry, I mean that his family were kicked out of Palestine. My mistake.
2) His second target was a Synagogue, though. His first was the same target that lots of other people are going after. Glad the target guy has gone into hiding now, hopefully means our taxes won't have to pay for his bloody protection.

Ancient Mariner
17th Feb 2015, 10:03
Nemrytter, I take it you're Danish? Why would you not protect one of your citizen when threatened by terrorist or otherwise deranged people?
Per

Lonewolf_50
17th Feb 2015, 14:48
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9LwrmORkyoctcKOL5t9gIFv1FewErCptUd5TJKRO Ds_lLhAO9
Caption Contest Entry: Lucinda attempted to attract Lonewolf_50 by indicating that she has an appetite for canine frolics, the 51st shade of gray.

Caption Contest Entry Number two: Still Searching for Blackbeard's Buried Treasure


Seeing as this young man doesn't seem to have been religious then steps to moderate religion as a response to this would be totally nonsensical.This guy doesn't seem to have been motivated by religious anger, more 'refugee anger' for being kicked out of Palestine as a child (hence, I imagine, why he targeted a Synagogue). Aye.
A likely cause and effect relationship, behavioral, is that his family "were kicked out/left" and their family narrative folded in all about how awful the Jews are and were, for the whole time he grew up. A great way to raise a bigot is to teach him bigotry as he grows up. All they are missing are the white sheets and conical hats to join another bigoted group ... :mad:

OFSO
17th Feb 2015, 15:30
And for those innocents who think life in NI is peaceful these days:

Daylight examinations of Londonderry device (http://www.u.tv/News/2015/02/17/Daylight-examinations-of-Londonderry-device-31841)

Believe me, nothing changes there.

Nemrytter
17th Feb 2015, 16:26
Nemrytter, I take it you're Danish? Why would you not protect one of your citizen when threatened by terrorist or otherwise deranged people?I'm not Danish, I just live here. And the intended target wasn't Danish either - he's a Swede.:ok:

RUCAWO
17th Feb 2015, 18:28
OFSO (http://www.pprune.org/members/245466-ofso)



And for those innocents who think life in NI is peaceful these days:

Daylight examinations of Londonderry device (http://www.u.tv/News/2015/02/17/Daylight-examinations-of-Londonderry-device-31841)

Believe me, nothing changes there.
Live weapon , intended to murder police, nothing changes. Will it get a mention on the national news? No chance won't want to rock the boat or tell Great Britain the truth. Can you imagine the reaction if this was IS in GB?

JFZ90
17th Feb 2015, 18:57
Nemrytter,

We will disagree, but I'm not sure I can follow how there is no religious aspect at all.

Why would someone shoot someone for drawing cartoons? It seems either they would be

a. crazy / copycat or
b. offended directly by the cartoon to fanatical levels of hatred

It could be a., but b. seems more likely. Is it likely the latter response could only be fuelled by religion, especially given the jewish angle?

Lonewolf_50
17th Feb 2015, 19:14
Is it really religion, or is it more fundamentally ethnic/cultural antipathy, of which religion is a subset?

Group identity informs a lot of attitudes, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

JFZ90
17th Feb 2015, 19:38
You may have a point L50

These guys were seen disrespecting the tributes to the dead while saying God is great etc. and making statements about islam.

But are they just a gang or really motivated by their belief?

http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/samfund/2015-02-16-unge-fjerner-blomster-fra-drabssted

Without belief what would the gang be up to? Would they be 'celebrating' the attempted murder of a cartoonist?

Lonewolf_50
17th Feb 2015, 19:45
Good question. Among some of the more dangerous urban gangs on our side of the pond, there are certain colors that, if one displays them in a given neighborhood, are likely to get one challenged and perhaps beat up.

Seems a similar mindset: pick something as "sacred" and "ours" and then get after anyone not showing "proper respect" and so on.

Nemrytter
18th Feb 2015, 11:45
We will disagree, but I'm not sure I can follow how there is no religious aspect at all.
Why would someone shoot someone for drawing cartoons?
...
It could be a., but b. seems more likely. Is it likely the latter response could only be fuelled by religion, especially given the jewish angle?I'd be careful in spending too much time thinking about this. We're talking about a guy who recently did time in prison for randomly stabbing a fellow metro passenger. There's only so far that logical thinking can take us.

It seems like he became more radicalised while in prison, so from that respect yes there may be a religious element. I really do think it's a very minor aspect though. If he hadn't thought to attack this cartoonist then who knows, he could well have decided to attack something else - even just random 'civilians' again.

ricardian
18th Feb 2015, 13:30
Current scientific thinking! (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/11419428/Watch-Saudi-cleric-tells-students-Earth-does-not-rotate.html). Poor Galileo, Copernicus, et al

meadowrun
18th Feb 2015, 20:33
These "terrorists" are just gangs of young men who have failed in society, are of low moral capacity and cloak themselves in quasi-religion thinking it will lend legitimacy to their bloodlust.


They are taught and no doubt encouraged by other low achievers like the Saudi cleric who believes the earth is stationary and the sun revolves around it. It seems, if you know very little, you become clergy in Islam, afterall, there is no exam, just line reciting by rote.

sitigeltfel
19th Feb 2015, 10:30
Another attack on free speech in Denmark.......

Last night, for the first time in its history, Denmark’s sole Jewish broadcast station Radio Shalom did not air. Its programming, a mix of Jewish news, culture and music, was shut down by its proprietor on the advice of the country’s security services.
Jewish radio station shut down (http://tabletmag.com/scroll/189035/denmarks-jewish-radio-station-shuts-down?utm_source=tabletmagazinelist&utm_campaign=07ea56b36e-Wednesday_February_18_20152_18_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c308bf8edb-07ea56b36e-207195805)