PDA

View Full Version : Line Handling Exercises For HKG MPL's & Cadets?


Gnadenburg
10th Feb 2015, 03:29
Just after a few contributions if anyone has a lateral ideas in supporting a generation of pilots who seem to be robbed of a lot of training that the rest of us have taken for granted.

A to B, way point to way point, with restrictive and ever changing SOPs, isn't the most creative environment for handling exposure but I think there are some opportunities to address the degradation of elemental aviating skills.

Perhaps the thread will degenerate toward insulting those who have let this happen, but I hope to avoid this. That said, I'm not an apologist either, and it's disappointing that some who have been shielded by experienced and well trained First Officers throughout their career, now see fit in the leadership peak of their careers, to take the gamble of dumbing experience levels toward cliff edge cockpit gradients.

I think the MPL program in HKG is Airbus specific? So the following Airbus orientated and I get the impression this is the design philosophy that has lured regulators, management and pilots into the current lull that is witnessing a generational loss of core aviator skills. This thread is not MPL specific, or even cadet specific I suppose, it's a wider problem though exacerbated in the earlier mentioned .

I also appreciate it is beyond many Captain's comfort levels to pursue the training and encouragement of F/O's to "practice" handling on the line, but please recognize this is fueling the crisis. Commanding Autopilot engagement immediately after T/O and disengagement just prior to LDG is good for you perhaps, and appropriate in certain WX, workload, fatigue & traffic scenarios, but could you at least document your concerns to management, safety departments or even your union? If you won't give away sectors or let your co-pilot hand fly, at least recognize this is a manifestation of a crisis.

I've broken the crisis down into three areas: Handling, Finesse, Flight Deck Ergonomics.



1) Handling.

-Flight Director Off T/O: OK, not allowed anymore but I'm sure you will be expected to fly the a/c home as per the MEL! Formerly, was a great exercise in raw data body angles pertinent to unreliable airspeed initial actions and the core skill of reinstating and understanding automatics from lesser levels. Mode Confusion was consequently addressed too.

- Raw Data ILS : Surprised at how so few of the current generation have been taught the tricks of the Airbus PFD presentation. But once shown and graduating to a level where there is no pilot inputs for 10 to 15s and the a/c sits nicely on Glide & Loc, the cadets are beaming- probably because they've noted some below par efforts from senior Captains in the SIM!

FPA lag and track errors due IRS derivation worth talking about.

- Circling Approach : There is opportunity and if well guided the pilot generally beaming afterward which can't be a bad thing?

- Visual Approach : It's taken me a long time to discover why this simple exercise ( 3 x tables and meet ridiculously restrictive stabilization criterion ) is so difficult to instill in the current generation. They do not know where to look for a runway due low levels of exposure in ab intio training and the sensory laziness of coupled ILS approaches once flying the line.

Tell the cadet that the Miracle on the Hudson was a visual approach and if they don't know what your talking about, well, this is the generational loss of former core skills- including aviation general knowledge.

Drift down, offset entry, etc all great for the junior F/O and confidence and enthusiasm with the job abound afterward.

- Body Angles on Descent: remember the good old days of a Flight Director off descent and discussion of body angles and idle power settings for unreliable airspeeds, engine relights etc. Such a simple yet powerful exercise with a lot of current relevance! Though AF is not as widely known as you might expect!

- Raw Data ILS no Track FPA: in Flap 3 and Full great exercise for a few elemental body angles as well as discussing, at it's peak, a number of OEB's on Airbus narrow body aircraft where raw data skills required minus the Track/FPA. Mention the switchology difference between ADR's and IR's to avoid a fast drawing support pilot putting you here in the first place.

- X-W LDG : Any ideas? I wouldn't dare suggest a cross controlling, gentle side-slip blow 500' as Airbus did with a launch customer I previously worked with. If it worked with the crusty old 727 generation they developed better FBW handling later in the flare.

Some Captains comfortable with landing with crab. Probably explains a few of our bent aircraft.


- Hand Flown, High Speed Descent: Like many, I was initially shocked at the serial over speeding in HKG and poor aircraft systems knowledge. Making a contribution to the aircraft's 1.75G pitch up is almost as alarming as having been there in the first place!

I found this handling exercise excellent. Most Airbus pilots have a side stick muscle memory from the approach ie: Flap Full & VAPP.

Great, so a panicky pilot who can't see the over speed coming reefs back on the side stick at 340kts + with as much ooomph as if they were in the approach configuration. 2G's + in an airliner is very uncool!

Over speed threat discussion pertinent. Environmental considerations, what the speed brake does and inertia, Flight Director G limitations and descent modes ( open versus managed ) and how a Mach descent looks aesthetically pleasing, but you are not in a fast jet, you do need to transition out of Mach.

I'm sure if the above was properly addressed we wouldn't have the bizarre Abnormal procedures of "Approaching the Overspeed " and the "Overspeed Recovery" - both testament to current bureaucratization of handling problems instead of improving the handling skills.






Any additions?





2) Finesse- Was it ever here in HKG? Go fly with Air Asia or Cebu or take the minibus to Mongkok and at times there's no difference with some HKG pilots!


- Speed Brake Finesse: Wow! What a ride ! Like a roller coaster. Stoking the speed brake at high speed is the norm; close your eyes and you could be in Space Mountain at HKG Disney.

Bit of speed brake theory helps, alternatives to speed barke usage and finally do they need it? At TOD call a SEC 1 + 3 failure and watch the terror on the pilot's face- yes, this is an addiction.

Weening them off the speed brake addiction isn't difficult. It stems from the fact this generation has been taught by many who have no idea about how to efficiently descend a jet airliner- this is a topic in itself. So there is and addiction to platform decelerations and consequentially being grossly under profile ( not doughnut or FMGC stated profiles ).

So a SEC 1 + 3 Fault and a gentle reassurance that the worst thing that can happen is we Go Around but you will be guided before that happens.

The transformation from speed brake addict to a smooth and efficient operator is fast.

Oh and remind them, energy management is not winding the speed back to green dot when you overshoot the grossly conservative descent arrow, then being given descent and winding it up like your a dive bomber ( minus the dive brakes which would be handy in the ensuing over speed ).


- Hand Flown ILS Approach in Track FPA with Flight Director's ON: This is a gem and teaches handling finesse and a handling confidence that will see the single engine NPA in the sim flown to perfection. Alas, someone told me there were a few who couldn't cope with this a generation ago and now it's OK to fly your NPA in HDG & V/S.

Sensitivity needs to be briefed and for some a demonstration prudent to avoid rolling from one side of the LLZ to the other.

It also provides a good intro to FCOM bureaucracy, Franglaise and technocrats! The ever changing manuals now have a table where it's labelled n/a- not applicable. Below, in the same table also, in bold italics is " Not -Authorized". Watch the FCOM bureaucrats spend hours on this: some will be bright red in the face saying this practice unauthorized others non-committal; Airbus rep's would probably throw their hands in the air and say who cares anyways?


Taxiing: Obvious issues here complicated by SE taxi.

I love watching the Thunderbirds when they've finished their flight demonstration as the F16's are marshalled in onto the blocks by a HAS trained USAF crew chief. Slamming on the brakes and the shark nose bounces to inches off the ground on the extremes of its oleo extension- back and forth, back and forth.

This seems to be OK to the new pilots but explaining you aren't a Thunderbird and nor are you the HAS crew bus and slowly they come around.


Hand Flying : So you've inspired the young gun to hand fly and you realize the flight attendants are doing their final cabin walk through with heads smashing from side to side. Our young ace is ham fisted on the side stick, over-controlling in the raw excitement of flying the shiny new jet. Though a bone dome requirement for all crew would help, and some put the seat belt sign on as a warning or make the cabin crew be seated call as soon as the AP disconnected, I've found asking the the pilot his girlfriend's name and suggesting the side stick her breast has a remarkable effect of smoothing the flying out. Some I'm not sure have had the pleasure of intimacy and you need to be a little more direct!

Female pilots have in my experience ( thankfully ) been inherently smooth hand flyers.





3) Flight Deck Ergonomics and Performance: This is a whole new chapter and a project in development. Where do you start? Human Factors was a multi-choice test the new generation have the answers for. General knowledge, aviation interest.

HKG CRM?

Any suggestions or guidance here? Company designated mentors?



This area may be critical I'm worried the upcoming movie "Triumph In The Skies" is going to have a "Top Gun " affect locally. Crazy hair styles and derring-do ....

crwkunt roll
10th Feb 2015, 05:31
Nice post, but supporting a generation of pilots who seem to be robbed of a lot of training that the rest of us have taken for granted.It's their own choice not to do any hard yards.
Nobody robbed them of anything.........

Oasis
10th Feb 2015, 08:31
Female pilots smoother hands than male pilots? Must be the hand lotion...

Shep69
10th Feb 2015, 08:56
Thanks for the thread. I would add a series of hand flown advanced handling on the aircraft and have this for everyone in that it is more of a recency thing (don't know how well the sim replicates the aircraft in this regard). Many accidents have happened because an individual hasn't learned and maintained the basic skill to push rather than pull to unload the wings (hard as it might be) when at high AOA. A wing won't normally stall unless one forces it to. These would need to be done in the appropriate manner for a transport category aircraft (i.e. G limited and without excessive rudder/yaw inputs). How often do we take the sim into a full stall and recover from resultant unusual attitudes ? How many stall recoveries have we done after loss of pitot-static information ? How about situations where the wing is kinda still flying but well into the back side of the power curve with a high rate of descent ? Aircraft are (rightly) operated in a very narrow flight envelope and many have never seen what happens when one operates at the edge or well outside of this.

The Buffalo crash, Roselawn IN crash, (probably) TPE crash, Raleigh Jetstream crash (mid-90s), and several others had the aircraft hitting the ground after an uncontrolled roll occurred during a stall at high AOA (sometimes rolling to inverted). In several of the cases the pilot continued to pull rather than push all the way into the accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

bamboo30
11th Feb 2015, 01:39
Gnadenburg,
Nice post. Agree fully. These flights actually gives the FO a lot of confidence. He ll thank you at the end of the flight beaming with a big smile. Was there once.

Gnadenburg
11th Feb 2015, 02:55
It's their own choice not to do any hard yards.
Nobody robbed them of anything.........

I don't think PLA is available to local kids and nor would expensive flight training from many who are from a HKG working class/ middle class background.

And I think I alluded to the fact that a lot of the training industry wide has been dumbed-down robbing most of the new generation: low cost carrier, self-funded Airbus simulator endorsement for example.

Gnadenburg
11th Feb 2015, 03:05
any accidents have happened because an individual hasn't learned and maintained the basic skill to push rather than pull to unload the wings (hard as it might be) when at high AOA.

Yes, and talk to the new guys about Jet Upsets! Did they get any training in HKG? Most don't know what the term means!

Unloading in a nose low, high angle of bank scenario counter-intuitive for many too.

I put my house on it, this neglect in Jet Upset training will be addressed soon. It has to be.

With due respect, I think that you will find that the pilots in these accidents were neither MPL trained nor ex - cadets. They were all conventionally trained via CPL - IR - ATPL pathways - and some had considerable experience.

Indeed, badly trained pilots are badly trained pilots. But what happens when the new generation migrates to the LHS having been left with glaring gaps in their training? The situation will be exacerbated!

For example, as above, Jet Upsets? Was HKG excluded from the industry wide training that Boeing & Airbus recommended a decade or so ago? It would have been expensive, three hour special simulator sessions, briefing notes and a classroom lecture.

Pogie
11th Feb 2015, 06:12
I'm afraid letting them hand fly following a flight director while trying to keep it smooth with a load of a pax on board and the cabin crew trying to walk upright isn't going to do a thing when they get upset and end up in a stall or a spin. Proficiency in that regard should be there long before they show up on the line. The cadet program just can't duplicate what years of working the bush (so to speak) does for a pilot.

Do you want experienced pilots, or do you want cheap pilots to warm the seats and fill a legal requirement. I think we all know the company's answer to that question.

Threethirty
11th Feb 2015, 07:34
In fairness when is anyone going to end up in a spin in an airliner? Yes we can talk about the outlying events like Air France but the likelihood of that happening is remote in the extreme.
I'm all for employing expierenced pilots but the sort of thing being spoken about here is akin to a quasi Australian military training syllabus in an airline! I don't feel it's necessary.
You can just imagine it: Ok chaps the first exercise today is spin recovery in a 330, then we'll move on to the low level flying portion and if we have time a bit of formation flying!
I think we have to be sensible and train for the far more likely situations that will cause hiccups such as non precision approaches, gusty cross wind landings etc. I see lots of evidence of screw ups in these areas but not too many unsuccessful spin recovery events in an airliner!

Shep69
11th Feb 2015, 11:46
Threethirty,

Look at the NTSB animation of the Buffalo crash. Or Roselawn. Granted these might not have been true spins in a conventional sense but both very closely matched a spin entry following a stall at high AOA. Even the TPE crash looks like it might be some form of high AOA departure from controlled flight.

Dan Winterland
11th Feb 2015, 12:51
David Greenberg, a former Delta Air Lines executive who was hired at Korean Air to oversee pilot training and safety, said aircraft manufacturers, airlines and the FAA embraced the idea that automation could make flying safer, but more recently began to worry about the times when automation can't carry the day.

"The focus started to shift back to being capable of using the automation as an assist to reduce workload in the right circumstance, but being capable also of taking over and flying the old way," Greenberg said.

"In Asia, it's very normal to rely, in my view, excessively on automation," he said, "partly because the manufacturers stress that the airplanes are easy to learn and easy to train on and very safe because the automation narrows the gap between skill and required skill."

Gnadenburg
11th Feb 2015, 13:44
I'm afraid letting them hand fly following a flight director while trying to keep it smooth with a load of a pax on board and the cabin crew trying to walk upright isn't going to do a thing when they get upset and end up in a stall or a spin. Proficiency in that regard should be there long before they show up on the line. The cadet program just can't duplicate what years of working the bush (so to speak) does for a pilot.


I disagree.

A solid investment in jet aircraft general handling skills will avert many of the upsets. When a "junior" takes out the autopilot with my encouragement and support, there is often a fear which suggests we are in crisis and facing a generational loss of elemental skills.

Airbus & Boeing Upset Training had its foundations based upon poor techniques from both experienced military and civilian pilots. So what hope does a generation coming through have who are fearful of hand flying the aircraft? Or the same generation that most captains, including some in training, go just as pale when "junior" asks to hand-fly an ILS or make a visual approach.

Put in an upset and a pyscho-emotional state they are just going to "pull" as that's all they know how to do!

Gnadenburg
11th Feb 2015, 13:50
In fairness when is anyone going to end up in a spin in an airliner? Yes we can talk about the outlying events like Air France but the likelihood of that happening is remote in the extreme.
I'm all for employing expierenced pilots but the sort of thing being spoken about here is akin to a quasi Australian military training syllabus in an airline! I don't feel it's necessary.
You can just imagine it: Ok chaps the first exercise today is spin recovery in a 330, then we'll move on to the low level flying portion and if we have time a bit of formation flying!
I think we have to be sensible and train for the far more likely situations that will cause hiccups such as non precision approaches, gusty cross wind landings etc. I see lots of evidence of screw ups in these areas but not too many unsuccessful spin recovery events in an airliner!


- Upsets have occurred in HKG with "fortunate" endings. The generation coming through are rapidly approaching a command window where already skill-sets have disappeared. You are totally dismissing Pilot Loss Of Control and Jet Aircraft Handling in your comments which is unenlightened.

- Does anyone know if the Airbus military tanker ( RAAF / RAF ) have received a jet upset package? Or has the military bought the spin of the un-stallable aeroplane philosophy espoused years ago?

White None
12th Feb 2015, 09:37
- Does anyone know if the Airbus military tanker ( RAAF / RAF ) have received a jet upset package? Or has the military bought the spin of the un-stallable aeroplane philosophy espoused years ago?

Absolutely not required as any RAF pilot, whatever the eventual operational a/c type will have had thorough aerobatic, stalling and spinning experience which has installed as a "backbone" reaction that attitude is irrelevant to unstalling a wing and flying it out of an undesirable attitude. Sure RAAF, USAF, etc, etc the same

Gnadenburg
12th Feb 2015, 13:02
Absolutely not required as any RAF pilot, whatever the eventual operational a/c type will have had thorough aerobatic, stalling and spinning experience which has installed as a "backbone" reaction that attitude is irrelevant to unstalling a wing and flying it out of an undesirable attitude.

Boeing & Airbus concluded 20 years ago that aerobatic competency was perishable enough to make Jet Upset training a recommendation for all operators.

I'd also suggest that there are handling issues with larger, swept wing jets worth providing training for eg: under-slung engine behavior, CofP movement and pitch authority.

Also, military training is an old chestnut with upsets and Boeing & Airbus test pilots were originally alarmed at Jet Upset programes developed by ex-fighter pilots, now airline training airmen, in the States during the late 80's early 90's. Low speed rudder use in a F15 is great for a rolling scissors and the like but in a jet airliner it is far more prone to cause controlled flight departure and massive structural failure. Evidently the courses taught low speed rudder use for roll control.

So although you may think Jet Upset training not required for ex-mil pilots both Boeing & Airbus differ.

So anyone? Has the RAAF or RAF received a package for their Airbus tankers or they behind the times with the flawed belief from 20 years ago that Airbus and it's FBW system negates this competency?

Gnadenburg
14th Feb 2015, 01:48
HKG pilots tend to continuously bemoan the lack of training locally and an ethos of checking only. Yet this thread hasn't presented any notions toward the urgent delivery of training to a new generation of cadet pilots from line pilots. A professional hypocrisy?

It's probably a combination of a lack of professional interest, a lack of willingness to expose your own operation which won't be met with any thanks if something awry gets reported and a small element who says, why train and give away my aviation expertise that makes my job bearable in the face of all our problems today, to make me so easily replaceable with the new and inadequately trained generation?

The above always made sense to me until I realized the crisis we have today. It is probably too much to expect line pilots to be able to fill the training gaps left by watered down licenses, courses and inadequate instruction.

So the only avenue left to address the Asian training crisis has been alluded to by Lowkoon on a number of recent threads. It has become a matter for the pilot associations. I caution here, it can't be local, as what is said and what is not said by those who should be commenting, can be a driver for professional promotion in HKG.

So lastly, for our new generation, who complain they haven't been trained to work within such a steep cockpit gradient, what to do if the old guy is persisting with a wickedly unstable approach and his IQ has reduced to caveman levels due psycho emotional stress? Perhaps tell the tower you are going around? The caveman will come out of his trance but a new set of problems now present.......

Happy Hand Flying!