Oh dear, will they never learn?

[ricardian]

Torygraph report (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11401172/RAF-man-jailed-for-shooting-comrade-in-party-trick-gone-wrong.html)
RAF man jailed for shooting comrade in 'party trick' gone wrong. SAC Liam Gadsby had previously boasted to colleagues that he could pull the trigger on a loaded pistol without a bullet being fired.

[NutLoose]

What's the saying, as smart as a bag of rocks? Seems apt.

[Brian W May]

Tango
Whiskey
Alpha
Tango

That is all.

[BEagle]

Surely this goes back to the very basics of weapon training?

Yes, the bloke was an idiot. But weapon discipline should have been hammered home long before he ever deployed.

[MOSTAFA]

Sounds like somebody playing with a Glock!

[Shack37]

Surely this goes back to the very basics of weapon training?

Yes, the bloke was an idiot. But weapon discipline should have been hammered home long before he ever deployed


It almost certainly was but the hammer wasn´t heavy enough.

[deptrai]

But weapon discipline should have been hammered home long before he ever deployed

Couldn't agree more. Some people just can't learn though. With the benefit of hindsight, this man should never have been accepted into the armed forces, or at least he should have been discharged earlier. He's not the only one who needs to learn, I suspect others made mistakes too in this case.

Despite his horrific injuries, Johnson was initially reluctant to report the incident fearing Army colleagues would ridicule the RAF.

He believed the cock-up would make the RAF look like "t***s" because, in his own words, "The Army would love to hear we shot one of our own lads.

[MOSTAFA]

I have to agree with Beagle, the bloke is a chump - it was as a 'shiney' new Glock - they have 3 safe actions to prevent most of the previous posts from happening - you can, IAW the rules, demonstrate squeezing the trigger from the sides without depressing one of the safe actions. Glock's lack a traditional on-off safety but this means that the weapon will always fire when a round is chambered and the trigger is depressed normally.

[Out Of Trim]

I wouldn't have wanted to serve with this idiot... I'm glad that he has been Jailed for three years and discharged from the service.

A pity his victim is still undergoing Medical Treatment and has a colostomy bag to contend with and indeed may have to leave the RAF. :confused:

[cornish-stormrider]

What an utter twunt.

My deepest sympathies to the injured oppo. Bloody good job he spoke out or it would have been a manslaughter charge.....

Guns - lesson one. If you don't want to kill it don't point at it.

Hope they throw the book at this chiselling f@@@wit

Here is hoping the RAF can look after this poor guy with a crap handbag ( literally), must be something he can do?

[JAJM]

The whole Service cannot, and should not, be blamed for the stupidity and negligence of one of its men. If you can't respect a weapon then you shouldn't be in control of it. I wouldn't even give this idiot a super soaker.

[Tankertrashnav]

As a one time Regiment officer I was appalled by this. Frankly this idiot can thank his lucky stars he has got away with 3 years. An inch or two one way or another and he'd have been looking at a life sentence.

A typical military monkey full of BS. Par for the course. Idiot.

Definitely NOT typical, thank goodness.

[Hangarshuffle]

Where were his corporals, sergeants and officers? Supervisors must supervise.
But there will always be guns and wankers placed with them, unfortunately.
And while I'm putting the boot in, what ever happened to the entire duty guard's stash of weapons, in the RAF EAW's iso container at Basra COB, spring of 2008? That impressive little haul was stolen right under the (sleeping) noses of the RAF. Their very own personal weapons-gone. Very dodgy. Those that were there will remember.

[Basil]

I hope SAC Johnson will eventually have his intestinal damage reconnected.
Unfortunately, I believe that it can take some time for the peristaltic (Sp?) waves to get going again.

In the meantime, I hope my nearby Army contact hasn't heard the story.
I've already had:
Jammed RAF Browning - "You have to clean them, y'know!"
RAF survival training - "That's a curious place to go looking for a 5 star hotel!"

[Tashengurt]

Unbelievable behaviour from a Rock!
I can honestly say I never saw anyone from any other trade arsing around with weapons during my service. They were treated with the respect they deserved.
A case of familiarity breeding complacency?

[glad rag]

Iraq soldier jailed for shooting colleague dead | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/sep/10/military.iraq)

[Toadstool]

I seem to recall, way back before I joined up and was in the CCF aged 12, that we were taught on day one - Never point a weapon at another person, even in jest.

[Roadster280]

Actually, I don't think this has anything to do with his knowledge of weapon training or weapon discipline.

If questioned, I expect him to be able to quote chapter and verse on weapon safety, demonstrate correct handling drills, everything he should know all about. I expect he would be able to state correctly the do's and don'ts of weapon handling (e.g. never point at anything unless you intend to destroy it, unload before entering buildings etc). He was, after all, trained to do just that in his primary role of airfield defence, and would have spent months and years doing that (and not much else!)

What I think happened here is that the guy was larking about and didn't have the wit to apply the rules he was all too well aware of to the situation at hand. If he'd been larking about with a broom handle or a bucket of water, no big deal. But a weapon, loaded or not, is a different kettle of fish. It's the "familiarity breeds contempt" situation. That, and a massive overdose of stupidity.

That he only got three years for this is surprising to me. If ever there was an example to be made, this was it. If he'd been a civvy, just having possession of the weapon would have got him 5 years - without it even being pointed at anyone (an offence), fired (an offence), shooting someone (an offence) causing GBH (an offence). There was no military purpose to what he did, so why didn't he get the 5 years as a starting point, add on the aggravating factors, and then a multiplier for the fact that he damned well DID know better. And a bill for the round, the medical treatment of the victim, and the cost of his prosecution and imprisonment.

****, indeed.

[Boy_From_Brazil]

It seems the Brown Jobs on the ARRSE website are truly having a field day.....

[MightyGem]

Surely this goes back to the very basics of weapon training?
Not the first time. We had a pair playing quick draw with 9 millies in the gatehouse in Northern Ireland back in the late 70s. One ended up with a bullet in the head. He survived, but with life changing injuries. Can't remember what happened to the other guy. :ugh:

[Tankertrashnav]

It seems the Brown Jobs on the ARRSE website are truly having a field day.....

And who can blame them on this occasion.

However there have been some entirely predictable remarks about the RAF Regiment on this forum, which I learned to take with a certain resignation when I was in the corps. However I would submit that this bloke is no more a typical RAF Regiment gunner than Bud Holland was a typical B52 pilot, or the guy who took a soldier's head off at South Cerney was a typical Hercules pilot. There are idiots in all trades and specialisations, and when it all goes wrong they have to accept the consequences of their actions

Roadster - I agree - five years is what I would have thought more appropriate.

[Rosevidney1]

Not wishing to create thread drift but military 'automatic' pistols look the same whether loaded or empty, whereas it was pretty apparent with the revolver when it was loaded. Is there any way of looking up figures which might indicate which type causes fewer accidents?

[rock34]

I'm guessing the type that "isn't pointed at your mates before deliberately pulling the trigger", is the type that causes the least accidents.

No sympathy.

[GreenKnight121]

Followed closely by the type that "is checked to ensure no rounds are in the firing chamber or in position to be easily fired" (like in the weapon at all).


The first rule of weapons-handling is to treat all weapons as loaded and ready to fire.

The second rule of weapons-handling is to physically check the weapon as soon as you hold it to determine whether it is loaded or not.

The third rule of weapons-handling is to render the weapon safe (unable to fire) unless you are planning to fire it immediately.

The fourth rule of weapons-handling is to never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to shoot.

[bcgallacher]

It. Would appear that the RAF regiment is not the only military organisation to suffer from poor firearm discipline - an American publication states that 90 US servicemen were killed by negligent discharge of a firearm during operations in Iraq.

[Exascot]

TT

And who can blame them on this occasion.

However there have been some entirely predictable remarks about the RAF Regiment on this forum, which I learned to take with a certain resignation when I was in the corps. However I would submit that this bloke is no more a typical RAF Regiment gunner than Bud Holland was a typical B52 pilot, or the guy who took a soldier's head off at South Cerney was a typical Hercules pilot. There are idiots in all trades and specialisations, and when it all goes wrong they have to accept the consequences of their actions

Roadster - I agree - five years is what I would have thought more appropriate.

TT Ex Rock!

Despite this :p I agree with you totally. Three years is far too short. Would this be Colchester or civilian prison? Also will he get time off for good behaviour? In which case 3 years is ridiculous. Why was the Judge an army officer not Royal Air Force?

[Pontius Navigator]

GK, I would put rule 4 first.

[Fortissimo]

Exascot

Things have moved on a bit. The judge is a civilian and the prosecutor can come from any of the Services. I think the deal is still that long sentences are served in normal clink rather than Colchester.

ff

[Roadster280]

Two years or less - Motor Cycle Training Centre.

Anything more - civvy clink.

That is, unless the MOD can't countenance having prisoners guilty of the particular offence(s). Usually the sentence itself would be longer than two years so not an issue, but there can be mitigating circumstances.

I knew a chap a long time ago - later in his career, after I had left, he got done for kiddy porn. He only got 6 months but didn't go to Colly. I think the MOD & civvy police figure out where's best to try the nonces and such.

[Lonewolf_50]

bcgallacher:
With ops from 2003 to 2011, that figure is very believable.
We used to get accident reports and summaries each month when I was in the Navy. Even in peace time, you'd get a few accidents a year where firearms were discharged wrongly, and some of those ended up being fatal.
With tens of thousands of troops and loaded weapons everywhere, the chance for a cock up increases significantly in wartime.
It's a tribute to the training that there aren't more such mistakes.

[Torque Tonight]

Regiment gunner in 'firearm works exactly as advertised' shocker. If he was so confident in his party trick perhaps he could have demonstrated on himself first. His mate is extremely lucky the he lowered the weapon from his head. Crikey! Not a clever bloke.

[sittingstress]

I wonder when he was "whisked out of the wagon and away round the corner" if he tripped up any stairs?

No amount of training will ever stop that "Unthinking Moment".

I found that a healthy fear of getting several good hard punches from your Cpl or peers if you:

1. Did anything dangerous
2. Dropped another Rock in the dwang
3. Did anything which caused the Sqn grown-ups to get involved

Generally prevented most incidents.

Yes I am old, and yes I understand this cannot happen in these truly modern times.

Per Ardua injured matey and speedy recovery.

A message to the fool; I hope it hurts in jail.

[The Oberon]

Couldn't agree more, Sittingstress. I can well remember as a 16year old apprentice being on the range at Locking. I had finished firing, removed the magazine and cleared the weapon. I stood up and turned to one side bringing the rifle parallel to the firing line. The next thing I knew I was flat on my back with a severe pain in the kidney area and a Rock Cpl bellowing " You won't do that again, you ****", and I didn't.