Cabair or Oxford?

[Speedbird744]

In terms of gaining employment after doing the Integrated ATPL course at Cabair or Oxford Aviation School, which one has a better reputation of this?
I see that the full time course at Oxford is much more expensive than Cabair, is there a real difference in quality?
When airlines consider hiring a student pilot, is the flight school they have attended a vital part of the airline's decision?
Cabair or Oxford? PLEaSe help!

[YYZ]

I started to investigate the same things you are now around 1 year ago, i thought that Oxford were more set up for the sponsored student & i felt that the difference in money could not be justified.
Having visited both Cabair & Oxford both appear to be quite good schools (on face value) however as far as which one to chose for its reputation, i would still have to say Oxford, it does seem to be more well known.
I belive though this is more good marketing than training, as both schools seem to boast simalar pass rates.
At the end of the day it will (and always does) most probally come down to what you can afford rather than where you would like.
Sorry its not to the point but there are many different things to take into consideration when chosing you school, go & check them both out so you can make an informed decision.

[Send Clowns]

If you guys have done extensive research, perhaps you can tell me: what is the advantage of an integrated course for the self-sponsored student? It seems some people insist on this route rather than modular, despite it being considerably more expensive and leading to people graduating with on average about 60 hours fewer. Integrated courses also tend to be less flexible.

Now that both types of course are approved I can see no benefit of an integrated course. However when told of my circumstances (around 175 hours fixed-wing at the time) one of the big schools quoted for a (totally inappropriate I now realise) integrated course without mentioning modular or even that there were two ways of running courses. I decided to go to another school, who offered £12 000 saving, for what I later recognised to be modular training. Are CCAT, OATS and BAe trying to push people the integrated route, knowing they have little competition in that area?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It still sometimes makes me throw things across the rooms when people ask questions like this.

I REALLY should not care any more.

BUT.

Nobody gives a damn where you did your JAA integrated course. They don't. WHY should they.

What does school X teach you that school Y doesn't.

Its Bull. No integrated school it better than another. If one suits you because of Geography or course style then fine. But in themselves there is no difference.

Truth be known - there never has been.

Personal circumstance dictate whether integrated or modular is the best option. All things being equal Modular has an advantage these days.

BEWARE of people talking out of their posteriors based on the old Self Improver vs 509 history in this country.

Good luck,

WWW

[oxford blue]

Send Clowns,

Don't ask rhetorical questions which are not justified by the facts. I am referring to "Are CCAT, OATS and BAe trying to push people the integrated route, knowing they have little competition in that area?"

If you, or anyone else, wants to do a modular course, Oxford would be extremely happy to consider your application. OAT offer modular themselves, have a thriving modular business and DO NOT push potential students down one route or the other. The choice is for the customer to make.

[D 129]

Oxford's reputation is good - although they are not unique in this. They do have a good focus on career planning / placement & seem to have some success.

They do enjoy high pass rates on the theory exams - amongst the best in the country.

They do offer flexibility on course choice - Integrated / Full Time Modular / Distance Learning Modular.

Full Time Modular students are certainly the equal of the people on the Integrated Courses - It is said that some airlines "had a problem" with distance learners and classed all modular students in the same catagory.

I hear that some airlines definitely like Oxford and will approach Oxford for a short list of candidates. Equally I have heard of one airline that had a bad experience with an Oxford "graduate" and have been wary of Oxford since.

Also worth a mention is that it is said that some airlines require their candidates to have achieved high marks in both their theory and flying exams / tests. (e.g. BA are said to require an 85% average from their sponsored students in their ground exams). Equally some employers are said to look only at your flying performance.

I'm studying at Oxford and find it very good. You need to see if any cost differential appears worth it, weigh up how important first time passes / high grades are to youas well as tieing this up with your own circumstances e.g. travel.

Final point - continuity - If you have been part of a single flight training organisation throughout your training history - then its in your favour - In the case of Oxford they are not likely to recommend you to people unless they know all about you .....

Final comment - the above is what I hear as a current student - better information may come from recent graduates !

Best of luck

[distaff_beancounter]

I think that you will find that most of the larger UK FTOs, that offer intergrated courses, now also offer modular courses, and distance learning courses.

Cabair offers intergrated courses at Cranfield, and both full-time & part-time modular courses at Cranfield and Bournemouth. Cabair also has an ATPL distance learning course.

So, there is plenty of choice out there folks. There should be courses around to suit everyone. Most of the larger FTOs offer free open days, which are well worth attending, before you decide what suits you.

[barnaby]

I too am currently going through Oxford and can strongly recommend it. I would not comment on what Oxford can do for you post Frozen ATPL. However, what I will say is that Oxford are getting the results, have grade A instructors and I can put my hand on my heart and say that if I had to start again and choose an FTO, then it would be Oxford again.

Hope that helps. Whatever you do, don't chose a school on promises of them finding you a job at the end of it all. With the current climate, that is a job for the individual.

[Gin Slinger]

Slightly off at a tangent, but still highly relevant IMHO:

Having reviewed some of the OATS marketing bumph, I find the peppering of phrases such as 'Oxford graduate' and 'receiving an Oxford education' high amusing - there is clearly an implication there to the uninitiated that there is some sort of link to another educational body in the Oxford area...which of cause there isn't.

Perhaps Pilot Assist should change their name and start selling 'Cambridge education' ;) ;) ;)

"Marketing is like magic - 99% smoke and mirrors"

"There are lies, damn lies, then there is marketing"

(Both Todd Harvey Michelle, sales guru)

[Send Clowns]

My apologies, Oxford Blue, for including OATS, but my question was not rhetorical, I am genuinely looking for an answer which you have, from OATS's point of view, given. I really don't know if Oxford do push people to integrated, as they never replied to my phone calls or messages when I was looking at courses. I also wanted to avoid specifically targeting one provider, and since I hear rumour that Jerez no longer offer modular (is this correct?) this rather leaves Cabair. There are people here who have obviously been in touch with one of the "big 3" and have ruled out modular courses. I really am curious as to why, and thought these contributors may be able to tell me. Perhaps you of all people here should be able to point out the advantages of integrated courses.

To the topic at hand

I agree with WWW on this. My advice would always be to chose a variety of FTOs in areas you would not mind staying a while and visit each. You will be paying a lot of money, and must be sure that you will be happy with the course. You must be in the right atmosphere, be happy that you will be supported when it gets bloody miserable about half way through the second phase of groundschool and after recent events that your money is secure (if they insist on money up front, some don't).

You certainly cannot go on results alone. Some FTOs have nearly all students sponsored. These have passed highly competitive tests to attain their place at the school.

In terms of gaining employment, that is up to you. If you are right for the airline and can get noticed, they will pick you up. If not, you will have to work up from real flying towards the jet job.

[scroggs]

Getting back to the thread.....

There seems to be a general assumption that being a graduate of BAE, OATS or Cabair is a requirement to get employment as an airline pilot. Patently, that is not the case! By implication, you would be suggesting that all, or even most, UK airline pilots are graduates of these, no doubt splendid, organisations - and that would be ridiculous.

Most airlines do not care where you trained so long as you have the requisite licence. End of story. The fact that BA have used Jerez and OATS for their own training scheme is indicative of the quality of the training provided, but there are many, many BA pilots who have never been anywhere near either FTO. The fact that Ryanair has used OATS to suggest candidates for interview is probably purely a reflection of the airline's desire to keep recruiting costs down, and they needed a substantial FTO to provide them with sufficient names.

After all, when was the last time anyone suggested that where you got your driving licence would influence whether they'd let you drive their car? I think they'd rely on a more practical test - and so do the airlines!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Listen to the man above on this one!

----------------

Take it from me - a JAA approved CPL IR instructor that OATS, CABAIR, BAE or SFT (before they went) did not train you to fly in any way different from one another.

They didn't. I had good friend teaching at Cranfield and Kiddlington whilst I taught at Jerez. It was the same Sierra Hotel India Tango just mildly different aircraft and airfields.

Jerez might suit a single person who does not live in the SE. Cranfield might suit someone very price sensitive but who couldn't leave the country for long periods. Kiddlington might suit someone who wants a one stop shop convenience at a slight premium and believes he will train at the premier school.

---------------

Personally I would avoid the lot with their inflated bureaucracies and marketing depts and find myself a nice medium sized local flight school where I would not have significant accom costs. ATPL exams can be done very easily with such excellent schools as ATA in Coventry or BGS in Bristol - amongst others.

What the hell is the point of sitting in a rented B&B, rented classroom with a rented tutor learning the basic points of map reading/met/wiggly amps etc. etc. when 80% can be done cheaper at home followed by a short brush up course?!

I Really should get my book finished on this subject! :D

Doing your PPL CPL and IR at the same airport or in familiar airspace at the same FTO with largely the same instructor on mostly familiar aircraft is a HUGE advantage. Picking a locallish larger FTO with perhaps not the very cheapest advertised rates may well turn out to be a very wise decision.

I think OATS is a fine school that contains some fine friends of mine as both current students and current FI's.

HOWEVER. There is NO premium whatsoever in have an "Oxford" flying training history. None. To try to promote yourself on such grounds is FAR more likley to engender an attitude of "PRAT" than it is to get you a job IMHO.

WWW

[MorningGlory]

I think Gin Slinger and WWW have hit the nail on the head, and you would not go far wrong heeding their advice.

A CPL/IR issued by the CAA/JAA, will only be issued when ALL required criteria has been satisfied.

Therefore a CPL/IR gained at Multiflight (random school), is EXACTLY the same as a CPL/IR gained at OATS or CCAT!

A little obvious I'm sure, but try not to attach any 'sweetners' to schools that other NOTHING different to any other fully approved school.

Geography and personal circumstances should be the ultimate deciding factor IMHO.

I think somebody already mentioned it but please...... 'smile if you have an Oxford Education'????????????

What utter marketing horse*****, it makes me smile everytime I see those sorry adverts!!

:rolleyes:

[JT8]

Well explain to me why certain airlines e.g BE, CitiExpress specifically ask for less hours if integrated/509 or 1000 hrs modular.

:confused:

[Gin Slinger]

JT8 - probably a hangover from the old CAA days - there were substantial differences between CAP509/Self Improver routes.

I read the concencious on this board as that this is rapidly faiding from memory as after this month all new fATPLs will be JAR ones.

I did look carefully into the integrated route, but decided against it because I simply couldn't justify getting another £10k in debt for an advantage that simply isn't clear cut.

C'MON ENGLAND!!!!

[MorningGlory]

Thats right, I think you'll find that was pre JAR training.

Graduates I've spoken to in the past who'd completed their 509 training were very eager to point that fact out "yeh I've got a fATPL, CAP509 though..... 509 I said, did you hear me..??"

I think there was a definite devide between the above and the OLD self improver route, due to consistency of training.

The airlines dont seem to have related the changover to JAR as a direct translation between 509 to Integrated, and Self Improver to constitute Modular, reason being... It simply isnt the case.

I do agree however that some 'old school' chief pilots and captains/recruitment managers may still have this old fashioned view due to the lack of knowledge of JAR training methods.

Modular has simply provided eligible candidates with the oportunity to spend a little more time over their training and split up the whole course into managable sections providing the oportunity to work in between etc. This in No way will change the standards to which a modular student is trained or the quality of instruction received.

I think Integrated is great if you have the cash and can spend 12 - 18mths full time on it. I personally chose the modular route, have been very happy with how its all come together, and am nearing the end!

[Send Clowns]

JT8

That is not correct. The Citiexpress application form I had specified either and Approved course or 1000 hours, no mention of whether the approved course was modular or integrated. Of course under JAA all are approved, and under CAA approved meant integrated.

When I was working for SFT we had a talk for students (and qualified staff such as me) from Don Darby of British European and he specifically said we should apply. Since SFT never ran integrated courses they must accept approved modular.

[Gin Slinger]

Cut & pasted direct from flybe.com:

First Officers ATPL (Frozen), Perf 'A', CAA 509:300 hours total, MCC, minimum 1000 hours.

Rather ambiguous, but largely academic at the moment anyway.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The advert NEARLY only asked for 1000hrs. There were some shenanigans involved I can(not) tell you.

The distinction is dying slowly but surely.

WWW

[JT8]

Sorry, I didn't want to turn this into an Integrated vs Modular arguament!

As www points out, things are changing, however this appears to be happenning very slowly.

Send Clowns: The requirements were not very clear, but I know a couple of fATPL's were were denied an application form only due to the fact their training wasn't integrated. Thats what they were told on the phone. Thats all I know!

:confused:

[Send Clowns]

Sounds like they were unlucky and spoke to the wrong person. I got my Citiexpress form (in late August :( ) from a similar phone call, and was only asked if I had my licence through an approved course. Suggest to your friends that they call again with this information and see ifthey can ow acquire a form. As I said the form states plainly "approved course", integrated is not mentioned (I checked :) )

[ML Handler]

If you go modular you can not beat OATS for the ground school. I have just comleted my exams with them with an 88% average. Thier instruction prog is fantastic, however I have chosen a differant school for the flying phase as I thought OATS still need to get their ducks in a line in this area. It was a tough decision to leave but I could see no evidence of having Oxford on my CV being an advantage and I have saved some money. The best thing you can do is visit the schools and talk to the students. OATS also have also recently appointed a career progression officer. If you call them and ask for him i am sure he can tell you how many airlines have approached him for prospective candidates.
Good luck what ever you decide.