Aircrew Outbrief

[maxaoa]

All,
Trying not to re-invent the wheel....
Working at a unit with new toys and we think we need an outbrief to catch errors, make sure we have a refuellling card!! etc.

Anyone have a favourite from their SQN? The aircraft is a T6C Texan II. Especially like to here from Tucano drivers as the types are similar in performance and I have fond memories of Linton!

Many thanks in advance.

[Bob Viking]

Do you work for Ascent?!
BV

[maxaoa]

Bob, NO! No commercial connections here.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

You fly T6C Texan 2s as a hobby?!

[Avionker]

You fly T6C Texan 2s as a hobby?!

If you apply a little logic, and perhaps read a few more of his posts, it's very easy to work out for whom he works.....

[wotan]

Be happy to help- PM me if you like, think your chaps visited us last year when looking at our PC9's

[John Eacott]

Outbrief :confused:

Is that the 21st century buzzword for debrief? Or something to do with 6P :hmm:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Only borderline useful comment I can offer is, whatever outbrief you devise, encourage crews to do everything on it before outbriefing rather than "Tech Log - I'll do that when I walk...CADS - I'll just check that in a moment...NOTAMs - I'll go past Flight Planning on my way to the line" etc etc

[nimbev]

Come on somebody - answer JE's question... what the hell is an 'outbrief' and what ever it is - what did it used to be called?? :ugh:

[HTB]

Outbrief

Assuming that they're pretty much standard across the FJ community: The crew, or formation, present themselves at the Auth's desk where they will, depending on their status, either self-authorise their flight, or be authorised by...the authorising officer. This following an interchange regarding route, sortie detail, update of late warnings/NOTAMs/weather en-route and for recovery/diversions, scrutiny of proposed route (to ensure JO Bloggs has all the relevant NOTAMS plotted, and that the planned route avoids them).

Crews not self-authorising should additionally be given specific instructions not to crash, thereby minimising the Auth's exposure to potential censure should the nastiness occur.

In other words, it's a final sanity check for both the crew(s) and the Authorising officer

Mister B

[Al-bert]

I hadn't heard the term 'outbrief' and some-how managed to avoid crashing for 25 years until one day a batch of shiny keen young types arrived on the Squadron full of shiny new ideas and phrases. A pity that the keen upwardly mobile thrusters in training command (or whatever it was called by then) didn't let the operators into their brave new world of BS first. :zzz:

[Sandy Parts]

I suspect all those old-sweats commenting how "it were all different in my day" had something like a 'pre-walk' list they mentally actioned? Or even something as tangible as a 'check-list' sellotaped to the cover of the book containing the auth-sheets? Maybe all the sky-gods on here were so sure they had completed all the necessary, they didn't bother with such trivia? :p Perhaps that was why there were so many "I learnt about flying from that" stories in Air Clues in those days....
Back to the subject of the "outbrief" in modern times - the ones I saw/used were multi ones so not really applicable for the case in hand here. Wasn't there one included in the Flight Authoriser Course (FlaC) notes?

[Al-bert]

Sandy P

the most succinct, perhaps not the best, 'outbrief' I witnessed, on a GSU check ride no less, 'somewhere in Germany' circa 1975, went "OK, weathers epic, the army's dildoing aroond as usual, lets go"!

Tell that to the youth of today......etc :}

[clunckdriver]

With the cutbacks couldnt the outbriefing be outsourced? Or simply use the standard, "Kick the tires {tyres} light the fires, first one of is leader, brief on gaurd" It worked every time for 3,000hours, why change it?

[MightyGem]

Crews not self-authorising should additionally be given specific instructions not to crash, thereby minimising the Auth's exposure to potential censure should the nastiness occur.
I have used that phrase. Thankfully, it was never put to the test.:)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Had this busy exercise outbrief (as#4) once

Auth: "Get your 4-ship airborne now, tanker's on towline 5"
Lead: "Outbrief?"
Auth: "Don't crash, don't die"
Lead: "Didn't know you cared!?"
Auth: "I don't; there's just too much paperwork"

[John Eacott]

I suspect all those old-sweats commenting how "it were all different in my day" had something like a 'pre-walk' list they mentally actioned? Or even something as tangible as a 'check-list' sellotaped to the cover of the book containing the auth-sheets? Maybe all the sky-gods on here were so sure they had completed all the necessary, they didn't bother with such trivia?

snip


Well, no. We had a briefing, in the briefing room, which covered the tasking and all requirements pertaining to that task. We then signed the 700 on the way to the aircraft and got airborne after carrying out proper start procedures (15 minutes needed for the ASW Sea King, so we weren't as cavalier as some would believe).

Still not sure why an 'outbrief' is needed if you have a proper briefing in the first place, but I admit to being an old-sweat from a simpler time, not subjected to the OH&S and second guessing that seems to go on these days.

Maybe that's why we had so much fun :cool:

[BOING]

What do they do now for QFI's?

We briefed for the trip and self-authorised but then if you could not complete the trip as briefed you did something else and changed your authorisation when you arrived back - if you remembered to do so.;)

[Hueymeister]

No wazzing, no crashing..oh and don't die..

[OK4Wire]

I agree with John: if you need another brief after your first brief, why not cover everything in the brief, in the first place??

For the poor souls that did crash, I'm not sure a second brief would have helped them...

[just another jocky]

The outbrief has been a bread and butter part of the flying process for me since I joined back in 83 and continues through to today. I have been involved in supervising as well as leading and flying in general and imho the outbrief forms a vital part of the assurance process that everyone flying has all the relevant information and covered all the necessary points.

A brief is fine as far as it goes but there may be other elements not directly part of your sortie brief that you need to know and the outbrief process covers this. It is a catch-all, usually not needed as the information has been covered but it regularly catches something or things that haven't been covered and is therefore, again imho, a vital part of the process of going flying.

[BBadanov]

JE: Well, no. We had a briefing, in the briefing room, which covered the tasking and all requirements pertaining to that task. We then signed the 700 on the way to the aircraft and got airborne after carrying out proper start procedures...


That may be quite so JE, but I think folks here have overlooked its value to finalise the formation brief. Typically on a squadron, we would brief as a 4, wash the coffee cup and final splash, perhaps latest gouge by Duty Auth to the formation leader, hover around the flight authorisation sheet for the outbrief by the formation leader for any updates, a/c allocations and perhaps a reminder on an important issue. Then step.


(Hmmm, outbrief as a 4, walk as a 3, start-up as a pair, take-off as a singleton...or was that the Italians!)

[TheChitterneFlyer]

These days an "outbrief" is more about who will take "the can" when things go wrong! If the flight authoriser didn't give written permission to "break wind"... don't! Other than that... is my medical current - tick. Is my IR current - tick. Am I night rated - tick. And so the list goes on!


It has its merits.

[brakedwell]

I'm confused, do you have to a stakeholder to wear outbriefs ?

[Wander00]

And I thought "outbriefs" were what Superman wears

[Background Noise]

Quite so TCF.

The outbrief usually grows with each incident/accident. It can be a great admin last chance check but more often than not turns into a soul destroying diatribe of arse covering rubbish.

I was asked once by a BoI whether I had (out)briefed a mishap crew about the increased risk of birdstrike near to the coast. I said I couldn't remember doing so but probably not, neither had I reminded them how to fly the aircraft.

[jayteeto]

On a busy squadron, the authorising officer can't attend every crew brief. The out brief is a summary for the duty auth. Simply put, it works. The "dressed to survive" question was my favourite. Pilots trying to fly in winter without the basics to last 10 minutes outside the aircraft!
The out brief works particularly well in the police/AA civilian role where there isn't any time to plan.
When you leave the house you self out brief....... Keys, wallet, phone......

[Pontius Navigator]

Jayteeto, quite. Left house en route for long weekend. Ran through post departure checklist: coffee pot off and empty - ?????

Not sure, drive 15 miles back home. Sure enough, on and full.

Mrs PN takes opportunity for toilet break. Waste not want not, I have a coffee.

Left house second time. Ran through post departure checklist: coffee pot off and empty - ?????

Not sure, drive 15 miles back home. Sure enough, on and still not empty.

Sorry for the drift but it does prove a point although an outbrief didn't stop us getting airborne once without cups.

[ASRAAM]

Ok so let's be honest. Who here has been saved from a walk back from the aircraft for a forgotten item by the out brief. Leg restraints would be my favourite

[Wander00]

Spectacles, testicles, valet and vatch, or as cadets, "sh1t, shower and shave".............

[Skeleton]

He shall remain nameless but one Student on the Jag OCU used to quite often forget to take ALL his maps with him, tired of running down to the jet with them after I think the third occasion, he had 2 out-briefs from then on, one from the Auth and one from me out of earshot of the Auth, "Maps Sir"? I didn't say it once when busy and he looked at me funny and said "Come on ask me, im running late"!

[Basil]

Umm, is that what we called 'briefing'?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Yes....thats what I would have thought Basil.
In my day, and yes I know its a complete irrelevence to the 21st Century RAF, we briefed every sortie. If it was a self authorised singleton sortie we briefed each other (not unlike your outbrief) If not self authorised a full brief was given which included aircraft allocation and location, fuel and weapon load, bingo fuel, weather en route and recovery, route details including all relevant notams, speed and heights to fly, weapon and range procedure, diversions and emergencies, frequencies, squawk, photo/simulated target brief, and recovery brief.
If there were more than one aircraft all crew plus authorising officer assembled for the brief which included all the above plus formation tactics, callsigns, lost leader etc
I may have missed some items out due to advanced age and too much scotch but you get the gist.
This does not neccessarily apply to the single seat mates, where I suspect the modern outbrief could be more applicable.
As far as personal stats, currencies etc. we were treated as adults and were expected to ensure we were suitably current. However if such "admin" details are included in an outbrief it seems quite sensible to me
Finally you only left your maps or gloves or checklist behind once!!! A buccaneer formation didn't suffer fools!.

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, come on. Who could really have a problem with someone taking three minutes of your life to backup your perfection in order to check you're as perfect as ever?

Sadly, the duty auth can't come with you to the locker room to help you dress, so your clean underpants and leg restraints are pretty much your own affair.

The outbrief (final brief on your way out to the jet, for that asked what it means) has one basic function and performs two services. Its function is to keep people's safe and effective. You work out how that works.

The services are to backup the flight lead's work in preparing for the sortie. It offers him a quick check of all the work that's gone into preparing for the sortie. Something I never resented as a flight lead.

It also allows the authorising officer or duty auth the chance to discharge his duty without having to attend every planning session and briefing personally. Good news when he has to do so much else with engineering, Ops and may also be the DOF, with all that entails.

It's simply a check before walking/stepping. Nothing here to fear. And it works both ways; the duty auth also gives updates to the crews, stuff that's changed since they went into a huddle.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Who could really have a problem with someone taking three minutes of your life to backup your perfection in order to check you're as perfect as ever?
Not me, as I said totally sensible.
It also allows the authorising officer or duty auth the chance to discharge his duty without having to attend every planning session and briefing personally.
Things have clearly changed since my days, when it would have been unthinkable for the authorisor not to be present at the briefing. Perhaps we had more guys (no girls in those days sadly) or, heaven forbid, we were better organised.
I have absolutey no problem with an outbrief (as it has been explained to me) but I simply wanted the record to show that we were not entirely loose cannons and cowboys in the cold war days.:ok:

[BEagle]

Back in the days when the RAF had lots of aerodromes, some chap diverted into an unfamiliar place due to Wx.

After the '10:00 clearance' had (for once) actually made its appearance, he rang the grown-ups back at base for clearance to finish the previous LL sortie (stats needed for the boss's board.....:rolleyes:). This was granted and off he went - only to hit something he hadn't known about and park his jet on a windswept hillside whilst he thought about things during his M-B let down.

Without the umbrella of the Duty Auth's 'out brief', it seems that he'd forgotten to check the NOTAM update (or whatever)....and there was an uncharted obstacle on his route.

In the big aeroplane world, we used to have a formal pre-flight briefing at which the Auth (if not on board) would be present. Some ex-FJ flight commander suggested a world of 'outbriefs' and 'duty auths', but the Boss reminded him that our pre-flight brief was entirely adequate, having been developed in the 20 or so years the squadron had been flying the aircraft.

So 'Outbriefs' probably have their value in some worlds, but aren't really needed everywhere.

Mind you, before I had self-auth status, I was once pre-auth'd to fly an aircraft back from Hawaii 2 weeks into the future. Where was the value in that?

[Sandy Parts]

Beags - I think there is always value in being in Hawaii, even if it is to fly from :p For R.O.G - yup - sadly the Sqn Exec doing the auth was usually far too busy to make the full crew brief (especially if it was at 0500...) so the outbrief was his chance to eyeball the info and quiz the Captain/P1/Nav to check their preparation was to his satisfaction.

[Skeleton]

In the Jaguar world the out brief has saved more than one pilot from running into a parachute area etc that was not plotted until after they had planned, "No late warnings" from Tac booking often changed as well, I was going in the back seat one day and the Auth made me put a green jumper on under my immersion suit as he said i was not dressed for survival. In the Jag world at least the out brief from my side of the Ops desk was invaluable as a "last check" tool, what the drivers thought i don't know :)

[Courtney Mil]

Do also remember that the flight lead could usually authorise his formation. He would also go through the outbrief checklist as he signed his life away. It's just a checklist.

[Xercules]

Beagle makes a fair point in his last sentence at 36 above. In the Herc world we were all effectively self-authorising if you looked at the things an authoriser is supposed to cover. Many of our departures from base were at 00 very little and there were never any grown ups in flight planning at that time. Each task had to be written up and then authorised when all the Auth could do was confirm that you had a constituted crew that was correctly qualified. At some later date (even), and not just later time, as the Captain you did the rest. In any case, sometimes the end of the task and, therefore, the final sortie could be days or even weeks later.

Originally, that was it and you amended the auth sheets on return to indicate what it was you had actually done in the event of a revised itinerary/routing. Then the fun detectors noticed and if your task changed you had to fill in a new auth sheet showing the new details and leave a signed copy with the handling agent even though it was all backed up with signals etc. For this all captains had to be signed up as self-authorising when away from base. I never did find out who if anybody actually saw these distantly off-loaded sheets of paper.

I well remember being somewhat bemused when first made a squadron training captain. In that job I could arrange my own aircraft (if available), arrange my own crew and then self-authorise to go and do whatever without telling anybody else. However, if it was a route task backed up by the full panoply of Group's tasking organisation I had to get authorised by a flight commander.

The rules were written for FJ squadron type flying and it took a lot of time and effort to get them even to reflect anything realistic for transport ops.

[2Planks]

The Urban Myth (or maybe the truth) around Coningsby in the 80s gave the origins of the outbrief to the Guy who drove the crew bus around the dispersals during the V Force days. Having got fed up of returning to ops for maps/crypto/leg restraints etc etc he cane up with a list which he shouted out after everyone was seated,

[Sandy Parts]

2Planks - you'd have seen pretty much the same thing on the bus taking MR2 crews to the jet. It was needed given we had about 20 bags / boxes / items (including top of the list - "Tea Pot"). A SAR scramble meant 2 minibuses instead which sometimes led to the "I thought it was on the other bus" gotcha. Was a good indicator of the diligence of the junior wettie or dry man i/c 'the checklist' as to how often they would have to traipse back to ops or the jet to collect something. Happy days!

[BEagle]

On the Tin Triangle, we used the 1 GSU approved Vulcan Crew Brief:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Vulcan%20crew%20brief_zps6ykknsut.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/Vulcan%20crew%20brief_zps6ykknsut.jpg.html)

I don't recall ever having to return to Ops to collect 'forgotten' items though.

[Sandy Parts]

wasn't that what your AEO was for? :)

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, one vital action missed from that check list:

Copilot - rations

One Vulcan trip, Aden to Gan, 6 bottles of squash, box of bites size sarnies each - no water to dilute the squash.

One Shack trip, 10 hours plus - no cups.

[BEagle]

The Crew Brief was held before the pre-flight meal, during which rations would be ordered, for collection on the way out of the Aircrew Feeder.

So rather pointless to mention in-flight catering during the briefing. Which was for more serious matters than the feeding of fat navigators.

[Courtney Mil]

Re rations. Ferrying two F4s CGY to ASI. Four white boxes, one litre bottle of diluted orange squash, four paper cups. Er?

[Sandy Parts]

gotta love in-flight - maybe they thought you could formate up real close, pop the canopy and pass round the drinks....:)

[Wander00]

there are blunties and there are BLUNTIES! Bluntest blunties tended to be caterers - who seemed to have no perception of what went on outside the 4 walls of their empire. However, the odd invitation to the waterfront "to see what we are up to" might have helped.

[Skeleton]

I thought i was going to be the subject of a BOI when a E3 TD got chicken instead of beef curry one day. He was about to have a "chat" with in-flight, it was there stuff up after all, but i was advised by the Captain that it was better we kept in-flight on side, to which i foolishly agreed. Great he said, you take the bullet instead then!! Cheers for that Captain :)

[Pontius Navigator]

The Crew Brief was held before the pre-flight meal, during which rations would be ordered, for collection on the way out of the Aircrew Feeder.

So rather pointless to mention in-flight catering during the briefing. Which was for more serious matters than the feeding of fat navigators.

Without the nav rad,no soup or sarnies.

At Cottesmore, we often ate before the crew brief when we expected either tech delay or scrub. Almost every trip involved a replan following tech delay as the aircraft configuration dictated the mission - mandatory elements such as ECM run, bomb sight calibration, TFR or not. Then changing target order following new range slots etc etc.

Delays of 4 hours were not unheard of so a late brief was norm.

[Tengah Type]

Ref Courtney Mil's #47

Mount Pleasant topped that CGY level of catering for F4s.

Op Lampuca, the swap out of F4s. The request was for 4 boxes of sandwiches, apples, Mars Bars and soft drinks, for the 7 1/2 hr flight to ASI. An hour or so into the flight the first box was opened and found to contain all the sandwiches, the second box in the same aircraft had all the Mars Bars! The other aircraft had all the drinks and apples. One of the crews had quite a thirst on arrival at ASI!!

The next flight some six month's later were issued with Pot Noodles!!

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, God. Maybe we should have explained more carefully. Or maybe we were expecting too much. Maybe we had been sent exactly what we asked for. Maybe we expected everything to be pre-sorted and maybe all we needed to do was divi it up ourselves.

Still, it's funny now.

[2Planks]

And the OC Catering at Colt that was invited to the Jag Sim - having just about mastered getting the thing in trim he was handed a hard boiled egg and an orange to peel - point made!!

[Wander00]

2planks - f...ing BRILLIANT - just spilt my coffee down the keyboard, almost. Still laughing. Made up for finding we have to contact out "Open Skies"!