The demolition of Woodford has begun

[MARK9263]

Good afternoon,

I have posted a number of photos onto our website of the above destruction.


Ringway Publications - HOME (http://www.ringwaypublications.com/)

[SpringHeeledJack]

Remind me again please why this airfield wasn't kept as an aviation resource ?
I realise that nostalgia isn't very valuable in general terms, but surely a light industry/high tech hub and aviation share could have been possible ?


SHJ

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

SHJ - because they could, and it was the easy option bringing in immediate cash.

In reality it was a terrible waste of a valuable facility - a first class runway with instrument approaches and facilities, which would cost many millions to create. And in an area of the country with a large population and no real business GA facilities. It wasn't going to bring in income like selling it for development will, but as a GA business airfield it would be an economic enabler bringing wealth to a region crying out for it.

But to put money in to make it work as such a facility, rather than simply extract money out from developers, takes vision. And vision is sadly lacking in the sheep that pass for today's decision makers.

Short term gain at long term cost; an opportunity missed. But 100% predictable.

[MARK9263]

Once production ceased on the RJ in 2001 it was doomed to close one day, the cancellation of the Nimrod project accelerated that day. It was only ever going to be houses after that.

It was mooted as a possible cargo airfield, an executive jet airfield, but apparently this was objected to by MAPLC ,due to the close proximity of each other regarding ATC separations etc etc..

It could have been a repair and maintenance facility or even a Kemble-of-the north but......it was only ever going to prime housing land..

[SpringHeeledJack]

Is there really such a pent up demand for housing in and around Manchester ? I had family living close by some years ago and what I remember of the surrounding area wasn't very built up, just fields, a canal and a smattering of houses. Did I see a surface fenestrator (or whatever it's called) chewing up the runway surface in the photos in the link ? What will happen to the Vulcan ?


SHJ

[chiglet]

As Mark says
Far?? too close to Manch. On O6 deps we had to fly None Standard Deps Straight Ahead to 2500 ft before turning Right. However I remember a CPA B747 asking to turn inside the Woodford Circuit.
He rotated/broke right at the 06/10 intersection and went dct Mow Cop.
We also had FOUR C130s do "Tac Deps" off 06 at 0500 ish

[SpringHeeledJack]

But, for example, (In Germany) Hamburg has Fuehlsbuttel very close to Finkenwerder and the ATC there seem to manage to synchronise the many A380's, Beluga's and A320 family aircraft movements with the many daily movements at the civil airport without undue effort. Perhaps Manchester is busier, I'm not sure, but it wouldn't have been too much of an effort to slot biz jet/whatever flights into the airspace now and then would it ?


SHJ

[barry lloyd]

But, for example, (In Germany) Hamburg has Fuehlsbuttel very close to Finkenwerder and the ATC there seem to manage to synchronise the many A380's, Beluga's and A320 family aircraft movements with the many daily movements at the civil airport without undue effort. Perhaps Manchester is busier, I'm not sure, but it wouldn't have been too much of an effort to slot biz jet/whatever flights into the airspace now and then would it ?

Woodford also managed to stage a series of very successful (ie well-attended) airshows, while normal operations continued at MAN. How does Northolt, which is now much busier than it used to be, manage against Heathrow then?

Two words come to mind - political expediency.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

It's not too near EGCC at all, ATC managed just fine when it was active - that's just an excuse, and possible fear from MAN management (who made that objection) of a competitor for freight and business traffic on their doorstep.

It's 'easy money now' to sell it for housing rather than use it as a 'business enabler' for the region where the financial rewards are less obvious, in the future, but very, very real and ongoing unlike the one-off cheque they'll get from Redrow Builders.

The sale for housing is testament to intellectual pygmies with no vision taking jam today.

The Vulcan is to be statically restored as part of the aviation museum. Some work on it has already been done.

[ETOPS]

I went to a recent council meeting nearby where I met members of the Cheshire East planning dept. I asked them what provisions there were, in the local structure plan, for the promotion of Business and General aviation in Northeast Cheshire.

They instantly answered "none" .........:ugh:

I made my excuses and left.

[MARK9263]

Yes, indeed the runway is being dug up.
The Vulcan will form a centrepiece of the new Avro museum, which will open later this year.

[carlrsymington]

I don't post often but this is the most blinkered, self centred thread I have ever read.:ugh::rolleyes::=
In case you have not read the title.
UK population - 64.1 million (2013)
Rising property prices Home values in England
Avg values 1 yr
All homes £279,985 +5.9%
Detached £394,160 +7.37%
Semi £237,771 +7.42%
Terraced £222,372 +5.37%
Flats £279,115 +5.34%

LPL - I think can take the pressure (WIKI)
Between 1997 and 2007 it was one of Europe's fastest growing airports, increasing annual passenger numbers from 689,468 in 1997 to 5.47 million in 2007.[2] Passenger numbers have since fallen and around 4.2 million passengers passed through the airport in 2013.
As for "Short term gain at long term cost; an opportunity missed. But 100% predictable."
100% right -we all want to live somewhere affordable 365 days of the year.
as opposed to a couple of flights per day.
I am 100% in favour of aviation but having an affordable home is a much better use of valuable land.

Rant = off. Gone to find my helmet, flak jacket and a taxi....

[VX275]

There was an incident during a Woodford RAFA airshow one year. I was in the crowd that was dutifully following the comentator's advice to look to the left to see the F111 approaching. We all looked in vain, but if we'd been stood on the viewing terrace at Manchester Airport we would have seen a wonderful display given by the pride of the USAF:ugh:

[TURIN]

I went to a recent council meeting nearby where I met members of the Cheshire East planning dept. I asked them what provisions there were, in the local structure plan, for the promotion of Business and General aviation in Northeast Cheshire.

Cheshire East don't have a plan. That's why Jodrell Bank is currently under threat from housing developers. :mad:


I don't post often but this is the most blinkered, self centred thread I have ever read.
In case you have not read the title.
UK population - 64.1 million (2013)
Rising property prices Home values in England
Avg values 1 yr
All homes £279,985 +5.9%
Detached £394,160 +7.37%
Semi £237,771 +7.42%
Terraced £222,372 +5.37%
Flats £279,115 +5.34%

Those averages are heavily biased towards London/SE England prices.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Those averages are heavily biased towards London/SE England prices.

Not only that, but that post completely misses the point. Calling posters here 'blinkered and self centered' indicates that. How can you say that about wanting a local facility that would encourage business, jobs, and wealth to the area? maybe he's all right and already has a job - millions don't.

You can build houses in lots of places (and developers do!). The tragedy of the Woodford site is the short-sighted destruction of a valuable asset that has a very real need in the area, and would cost millions to replicate.

LPL is not the answer. A businessman won't land his aircraft there to then somehow have to get to south Manchester (by taxi?). He'll go elsewhere. And they do - I know as they bend my ear about lack of facilities in the area while doing business elsewhere. London has Biggin Hill, Fairoaks, White Waltham, Blackbush and several other such airfields. Manchester has a muddy field at Barton that's short and often closed in winter.

[philbky]

Manchester's biz jet traffic has developed well over the last decade and extra facilities may well be needed in the immediate future but it also has, for reasons we all know well, under utilised runway capacity for many hours a day.

Losing Woodford is something that should never have been allowed to happen but its use as a general aviation or biz jet centre should never have entered into anyone's thinking. BAe should not have been allowed to run down Britain's aircraft manufacturing capacity. Either in partnership with others, or on its own, that company should have been the UK centre of aviation excellence. BAe should not have been allowed to move from airframes to things that go bang, or the equipment to guide armaments.

Apart from the lost value in exports the country has lost massive expertise as professionals in many disciplines have either moved into other professions or taken their expertise abroad.

[barry lloyd]

Spot on, Philbky :ok:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

EGCC is fine for expensive-to-operate bizjets. But the light twin guys can't afford Manchester's charges. So they don't come. They want a 'Northern Biggin Hill' not a Northern Heathrow. That could have been Woodford.

[philbky]

General aviation is not a low cost operation and Woodford, if the runway, nav aids and ATC were to be maintained to a high standard, would be no exception. Any operator would doubtless aim for a range of traffic and by offering a slightly discounted fees level to Manchester's, the operators would doubtless go for bizjet traffic unless prevented by planning consents. It would not have the wider income offset available to EGCC. All that apart, Woodford is isolated in comparison to EGCC and even the light twin fraternity want good surface links.

The most sensible option would now be to use the spare runway capacity on 23 left, build a non jet executive centre and add to Manchester's income through sensible, competitive pricing. With thought and planning, light aircraft should be able to generally avoid Nimbyland on departure.

[Krystal n chips]

I was surprised to see the demolition of the assembly sheds, as, aged though they were, you would have thought they had some potential for storage / warehousing or conversion into small units. Clearly not.

I assume the office block will remain ?

The lament about the airfield not becoming a GA / Biz jet site.

Just how many jobs would this option have created ?......relatively few.
Were any serious feasibility studies carried out and if so what were the findings ?. There's an unfortunate irony to this suggestion.....called "Avrotec", a good idea, but poorly managed to say the least.

Woodford was always destined at some point to become prime housing land, once BAe decided to embark on a defence business strategy. The developments at the "Dream Factory" alone and associated sites in Lancashire proved as much.

What type of housing however remains to be seen. You can bet it won't include what is termed social or affordable housing however, other than a minimal token gesture.

One final thought about the demolition and new use........Hatfield. So hardly a precedent in Woodford's case.

[sooty655]

BAe should not have been allowed to move from airframes to things that go bang, or the equipment to guide armaments.
Which brand of totalitarian regime would you favour?

[philbky]

Sooty, that is an insulting comment. The regime I would like to see, as you put it, is one that has the common sense to realise that a country of banking centres, call centres, museums and shops alongside high tech innovation and manufacturing centres owned by foreign companies is not, long term, a recipe for national success.

We live in a global economy and companies will always make decisions on where they operate and what they do. Joint ventures are obviously the way forward when looking at the costs of new projects in any major engineering area or in infrastructure. The problem for the UK is that whilst it is a centre of excellence in so many fields, ownership of most major economically and strategically important industries is in the hands of foreign concerns either totally or to a major degree.

How many aircraft, road vehicles, trams, trains, power companies, telecomms operators, food providers and many more essential products/services are either wholly or mostly British owned? Frighteningly few. What is lacking is a balance.

Back to BAe, its reason for scrapping the RJX was spurious in the extreme. That apart, the country has lost a strategically important industry and the expertise that goes with it, not just for now but for the future.

[Peter-RB]

Surely..someone is jesting,, the sign say Considerate Constructors look
after the environment....
Why then are they allowed to actually pull down with a tracked excavator type vehicle when the roof above is clad with Asbestos Cement Sheeting moving the digger tracks will grind that asbestos cement to dust,..releasing millions of microfibres into the air..!!

before anyone starts to say well it is Asbestos entrained in Cement, that did not stop my local council slapping a ban on me doing the same when I re-built a fire damaged warehouse and decided to take down the undamaged lean-to which was clad in perfect sheets of the same seemingly highly poisonous every day roofing item...

Will the NHBC or local council guarantee air and soil quality to all the new house buyers..?? somehow I think not!! someone should ask Cheshire East about that sticky one...

Peter R-B

[lakerman]

I agree totally philbky, BAe screwed themselves to the floor when they decided an all military was the answer, and cancelled the only civilian project they had. They got caught with their hands in the till with the never ending escalation cost of the Nimrod which then was, sensibly IMHO, cancelled. The Typhoons days are numbered as again it costs to much and they will be left with another white elephant, the F35, which of course they are only building bits of, not assembling complete airframes.
My only hope is that BAe stays in business long enough to continue to pay my pension until I turn up my toes.

[sooty655]

Philbky, I agree with much of what you say, and would certainly support the view that successive governments over many years would have served the country better by encouraging manufacturing and buying the resulting products rather than those of foreign competitors.
My objection was to the idea that BAe's actions should have been prescribed. I would much prefer that they were free to make whatever business decisions they find most appropriate. It is the environment in which they were forced to operate that needed attention, and sadly still does.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

BAe's retrenchment is down to market forces. If they had been better than the competition at what they do, Woodford would be busy making aeroplanes today and there might be closed factories in Brazil.

My gripe is what has then happened to that valuable infrastructure they've left behind.

[philbky]

Sooty and Shaggy, the government of the supposedly most market driven country in the world certainly knows how to protect its own. Other than protectionism why is the USAF getting an essentially outdated airframe for its tanker replacement? Or is it that the politicos decided that after nearly 60 years of the KC135, the air force couldn't cope with anything too new?

If perhaps Thatcher and the governments that followed had learned how the US really works instead of just engaging in a love in (please note I'm a regular visitor, have family there and have a great deal of admiration for how they operate) the UK would be in a much better position than now. If the UK leaves the EU just watch the exodus of major corporate investment as tariff barriers, currency controls and all the complicated paperwork kicks in.

Had the UK kept its home owned industrial infrastructure those in favour of withdrawal (I'm not) would at least have something to ensure employment and the provision of home manufactured necessities to back their case.

[Cantiflas]

Just a reminder that HSA did a fair bit of work in that field in the 60's at Woodford and Lostock.
It is a great shame that the airfield couldn't be saved although I don't have a good knowledge of the details.
ATC:BHX and Coventry have always worked well for me and they're close.

[ZeBedie]

If they had been better than the competition at what they do, Woodford would be busy making aeroplanes today and there might be closed factories in Brazil.

This is an insult to the talented people who worked at Woodford. Of course they could have made something at least as competitive as the E-jets, given the backing of management. The sad loss is not of concrete and tarmac, it's of many well paid jobs and of skills and knowledge that have been lost to his country forever :ugh:

Airbus wings next to go?

[Yozzer]

HS748 - good design in fair competition with F27 Friendship.

ATP - Should have been a natural successor; but was a dog that suffered far too many undercarriage collapses. The rot set in on a tarnished reputation.

HS146 - It is a puzzle as the why this was not a world leader 'City hopper': Were four engines too thirsty, or was the dumpy unconventional design just not pretty enough.

Fokker and Hawker Siddely had this market ringfenced between them and both blew it initially to Canadair and latterly Embraer who I suspect have reaped the benefit of the BAe demise. The BAe fleet of ATP & HS146 shows ignorance of consistent corporate 'branding' and perhaps a little arrogance in asuming that third world upstarts would not be serious competitors. A lesson that the Boeing Clan (inc McDonnell Douglas) learned from Airbus/Sud Aviation but managed.

[Allan Lupton]

With 387 produced, the 146/RJ was a success in my view.
The property-value-driven decision to close Hatfield, where we had a purpose-built final assembly building, and move all the 146 production to Woodford (where they were building them in less happy conditions) was not very clever, but kept it going for a decade or more.

Woodford, like Hatfield, is now a classic example of the folly of current planning where houses are built on "brown field sites" which would once have provided the employment for those living in the existing houses that surround the employment-free new development. Where will those living in the new houses work, and why not build the new houses there?

[Planemike]

Wonder if there is anyone out there who can provide some aerial shots of the changes that are underway?

Planemike

[SpringHeeledJack]

Building more nice houses, I'm assuming it won't be Coronation Street, will attract buyers, if not Mancunians, then Chinese/Singaporean/Malaysian buying off-plan in some expo in the Far-East as has happened thousands of times in the South-East of the UK these last few years. The developers will be happy, the local council happy, but in the middle to long term who else ? The truth is no-one gives a sh1t about aviation except enthusiasts and more importantly those employed in the industry, so to appeal to Joe Bloggs on the basis of aviation is a lost cause. As long as people can go on holiday by air and not have them flying over their heads all is well…. :rolleyes:

Someone said to me the other day that the UK seems to exist on banking, specialist hi-tech and people buying houses, as all the normal producing industries have essentially gone with the wind. Woodford was an existing sanctioned, legitimate airfield and as to why no one decided to use the existing buildings or to build adjacent either aerospace pertinent businesses such as Dowty who have suffered a fire at Staverton recently or Dunsfold and it's various inhabitants, is a mystery ? A few maintenance companies, a few FBO's, other hi-tech businesses and some private flying would have sustained a healthy local economy to my mind.


SHJ

[TURIN]

ATP. Avro Taking the Pi33!

What a dog. One of the worst aeroplanes I have ever worked on. (And I include the BAC 1-11 there). :}

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

ZeBedie said: This is an insult to the talented people who worked at Woodford. Of course they could have made something at least as competitive as the E-jets, given the backing of management.

No it's not, it's a fact.

Your second sentence explains, perhaps (BAe management may disagree), why BAE were not as good as the competition and therefore Woodford has closed rather than a factory elsewhere in the world, like Brazil.

By any sensible measure, the RJX should have been a twin, not a 4-holer, but it was cheaper to use the 146 bits; another example of uncompetitiveness.

And as for the ATP.... talented people?

[barry lloyd]

It was clear many years ago that BAe had lost interest in the civil market otherwise they'd still be building the 125. Had BAe decided to stay within the Airbus consortium, perhaps Woodford would have been chosen rather than Finkenwerder as the No2. plant for Airbus. For example, it would be much easier to move wing assemblies from Chester (oops, sorry - Broughton!) to Woodford than it is to Hamburg.

[Cantiflas]

Turin-Why was the 1-11 included as one of the worst aircraft you've worked on?
It was one of the best I've flown! I guess you're coming from the maintenance
standpoint.
Just interested.

[Plane Speaker]

The ATP was designed at Woodford as the first update of the Nimrod came to a close. Therefore there were hundreds of avionic engineers needing something to do. This goes some way to explaining a Smiths EFIS system (Designers do like to invent and re-invent, rather than use Honeywells options), the number of relays in the aircraft and wiring looms made on “peg boards” which when installed to the aircraft were generally an inch or two too short due to the variability of the fuselage manufacture at Chadderton…hence electricians were struggling to get looms to fit and connect. Similar levels of the new world design mating with old world aircraft manufacture later found their way to Nimrod 4…ie old comet made at Chester using 1950’s technology, mated to wings designed by clever young things, with tolerances to a 10th of a thou, and they didn’t quite mate properly.
As for Woodfords long term future….it wasn’t in the RJX. The RJX was simply a development of the RJ put in place to keep the value of the Bae owned 146 and RJ portfolio as high as possible. When the attacks on 9/11 took place Bae quickly realised that the value of the aircraft had plummeted so far that the RJX effect to keep the values raised had vanished. Hence in Nov 2001 the programmed was cancelled. Other forums have discussed the RJX issues regarding fuel burn, noise etc. It can be easily summed what effect the RJX would actually have had.

Prior to September 2001 RJX programme life was anticipated to continue for another 5 years or so. BAE’s grand plan was to then introduce the FSTA programme to Woodford (BAE had pinned its flag to buying ex BA 767’s and converting these) as the skills within the perimeter fence would neatly switch to this type of programme. FSTA disappearing was quite a shock to BAE.
Nimrod MR4A employed many, but not to the same levels as previously. Sadly, as with Hatfield, the demise of Woodford sees the end of the UK’s ability to design and build whole aircraft. Yes we can debate the relative merits of the aircraft and their strengths and weaknesses, but don’t anything away from those who were involved. It was a massive achievement that will never be repeated in the UK, sadly.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

What is FSTA?

[philbky]

So, BAe management was building the RJX as a five year stopgap? Hmm, that's not the view of many people who were in the offices or on the shop floor at Chadderton and Woodford. They were being sold on the aircraft having at least as long a life as the 146 and, given the amount of revised and new engineering in the project, five years would not have been a realistic time for payback.

You might be right of course as the same totally ridiculous thinking is evident in the stated BAe view in November 2001 that the regional jet market had died in the flames of the WTC.

The real truth will one day come out that BAe just didn't and still don't want to be in the aircraft manufacturing business.

[DaveReidUK]

What is FSTA?

Future Strategic Transport Aircraft, ie the role that the Voyagers have been acquired for.

[Krystal n chips]

" This goes some way to explaining a Smiths EFIS system (Designers do like to invent and re-invent, rather than use Honeywells options), the number of relays in the aircraft and wiring looms made on “peg boards” which when installed to the aircraft were generally an inch or two too short due to the variability of the fuselage manufacture at Chadderton

Might as well mention the Smiths A/P as well, the repair costs were as you would expect.

The tacky loom that ran down the length of the fuselage on the left hand side, now that did look as it had been constructed by somebody "with no previous experience ".

The FSTA...ah, yes. Lots of sharp suits, a "countdown clock", and all the associated consultants you could wish for.

Unfortunately, there was nobody there with 767 maintenance experience, for some considerable time...only 727. The arrival of an American gentleman, complete with cowboy hat and boots, was not as incongruous as it may have appeared.

I can't speak for TURIN, but, the 1-11 was also a heap of junk.

The UK may well design good airframes and avionics, but maintenance was never even thought about, as such. If it looked ok on a drawing board, then that was all that was required.

The captive nut was a quantum leap for UK designers. The RR Spey was on the same level, designed to be worked on at a bench in Derby, not on the Line or in a hangar.

A perfect match therefore.

[Fishaman]

Such a shame to see the place being levelled, I served my apprenticeship there 90 - 94 on the ATP & RJ, unfortunately the 40 odd of us were released after our 4 yr term as the main workforce were at the start of the first redundancies, the writing was on the wall then......


I remember we used to help set the place up for the airshows, I was there when the Spitfire RM689 went down in 92, awful, I remember driving into work on the Monday morning and the remains of the aircraft were sheeted on a low loader on the way to Farnborough.
During one set up a Dutch F16 was taxiing in to park up on the static line, us being young hard as nails/can't touch me Northerners were waving at the pilot (some were waving, some were doing other things !) so when he turned the aircraft ready to chock up we were now behind him, a blip on the throttle from him soon had us running in all directions, quality! It was ace that you had to drive over the active runway to access the flight sheds on the south side! Good times indeed.


R.I.P Woodford

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Yes, I remember visiting the flight sheds in the late '70s, waiting at the runway traffic lights for a circuit-bashing Vulcan to roll past!

[Plane Speaker]

Philbky: BAE made it clear they didn't want to build aircraft whilst they were partners in the AIR joint venture at Toulouse. ATR board members arrived with a proposal to build a low wing twin jet seat seating between 80 and 120 depending upon variant (what we might now term as an E190 family aircraft). The BAE board members voted against the idea (BAE didnt want to tip cash into this project as it had many other more valuable projects to fund; military of course). Within 6 months the JV was dissolved.
I'll also remind you of Charles Masefields attempt to form a JV with TAC (Taiwan Aerospace Consortium). Both of these occured in the mid 1990's with the TAC JV attempt coming before AIR.

As I said the RJX was as stop gap. If MOC convinced the workforce of a long term viable plan for making 18 aircraft a year...well he did a good job on that at least.

[philbky]

Plane Speaker, I presume your figure of 18 a year is based on your assessment of the annual 146/RJ production from 1978 to 2001. The actual figure is less, being 16.8.

Apart from the well known attempts at joint ventures, which were at best rather tenuous, the BAe management looks to have made some massive errors of judgement if it genuinely went ahead with the RJX only hoping to match the 146 output.

Again, I cannot believe any sane management would have launched a production line for only a five year life, given the investment involved, and a very limited run was not the perceived attitude at the time of the launch, based on employee briefings and the marketing push..

If they were only window dressing to cover their determination to leave the aircraft manufacturing arena, as quickly and as quietly as possible with the least amount of ire being heaped upon them, then continuing with a four engine design, planning for just five years production and then exit based, presumably, on "heavy losses" might be a scenario but, even for BAe that is rather Machiavellian.

As it turns out they were handed the thinnest of excuses on a plate and in the storm surrounding 9/11 escaped the market rapidly and under minimal scrutiny.

[Plane Speaker]

Philbky, the RJX development was funded by Honeywell to gain the C of A for the AS977 engine. BAE cleverly didn't put their hand in their pocket....until the project was cancelled when they had an out of court settlement with HON.
18 a year was the target out put for RJ and RJX at Woodford. There were never plans to increase from that. As to BAE management mind set well, given that Bhutan Airways ordered 2 and Flybe ordered 8 (I think) with both trading in their existing fleet of 146/RJ aircraft I think they got it right to stop the programme?

[ZeBedie]

I have no time for socialism, but you have to wonder if BAe may have turned out better, in terms of jobs and UK balance of trade if it had not been privatised?

[Allan Lupton]

Some of us who were there at the time would have said 'twould have been better had it not been nationalised.
Our side of the industry (Hawker Siddeley) was a multi-discipline industrial group but the nationalisation concentrated the aerospace part into BAe without any of the alternative industry we had had. Privatisation did nothing to undo that, of course.

[philbky]

Plane Speaker, please show the evidence that Honeywell funded the RJX. Honeywell as I have always understood it, was a partner in the development and production of the aircraft, being responsible for the engines and avionics, not the whole project. Engine manufacturers in the civil market do not fund new project airframes to get an engine certified.

The legal action was regarding the cancellation of the project by BAe which was the lead partner, without agreement.

Given the speed of sales of the 146, the sales projection for the RJX may well have been only 18 per annum but 20/20 hindsight has shown that, all things being equal, it should have done better in what became an expanding market.

As for the five year stop gap, unless BAe had something else already under development, which clearly they did not, there would have certainly been a court case five years down the road had production stopped at that point as all involved would have lost money.

[ZeBedie]

Some of us who were there at the time would have said 'twould have been better had it not been nationalised.

I don't doubt that the government(s) were capable of buggering the industry up twice in quick succession. How did we go from being world leaders to picking up the crumbs from the airbus table?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

No industry should ever be nationalised. Governments are not good at business.

[ZeBedie]

Whatever the politics, France and Italy have managed to hang on to a good bit of their manufacturing and it's bloody annoying that we didn't, given that we were (are) better engineers than they could ever hope to be!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

....and Italy have managed to hang on to a good bit of their manufacturing and it's bloody annoying that we didn't, given that we were (are) better engineers than they could ever hope to be!

Um. Italian tilting Pendolinos providing a fast and reliable service up and down the West Coast Main Line many tens of times a day every day for more than a decade and counting.

British Rail's tilting APT (Advanced Passenger Train) ditched before it saw service.

You need:

1) The vision to accurately assess the market at that time.

2) Excellent design rooted in prototype research.

3) Quality build in manufacturing.

4) The commitment to make it happen.

5) Effective marketing, worldwide.

6) Superb product support.

I don't think APT had many, if any, of those.

[ZeBedie]

Shaggy, your beef seems to be with management. Yes, British management are/were substandard. Our engineers are/were the the best.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

ZeBedie, those attributes don't just come from management. They come from management, engineers, workers, marketeers, and government (the latter mainly not to interfere with business).

Engineers, when left to their own devices, tend to over-specify and prodcuce something technically excellent that the market may not need nor can afford. Like the wonderful VC10. ;)

[ZeBedie]

Engineers, when left to their own devices, tend to over-specify and prodcuce something technically excellent that the market may not need nor can afford.

For that to occur is a failure of management.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Indeed, which is why I said "Engineers, when left to their own devices". Hence for success you need a complete team who are up to speed - as I stated a couple of posts ago. Being 'good engineers' isn't enough to cut it.

[ZeBedie]

I seem to remember a last ditch attempt at marketing the ATP by calling it the Jetstream 61. I wonder if any so called Jetstream 61's were ever sold?

[JW411]

In a nutshell; NO! (And it was subsequently broken up at Woodford). A complete waste of money. I mean, why did anyone seriously think that anyone would buy the 80p just because some pillock in marketing had spent a fortune calling it a Jetsream?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Decades ago I was at a party in Wilmslow and I met a guy working as a project manager at Woodford. He told me the company had just spent an absolute fortune paying a PR company to come up with a brand name for the products.

The brand name they came up with? ......AVRO!

[SpringHeeledJack]

I'm surprised that the 80p :D didn't really catch on in Africa and similar markets. Embraer swooped in and have never looked back, even effectively killing the A318 in the short haul jet market.


SHJ

[Krystal n chips]

" I'm surprised that the 80p didn't really catch on in Africa and similar markets

How about the legacy of unreliability and the cost of spares for a start.

The latter being compounded by the fact the type became an orphan fleet in a very short time.

That, and it was / is a complete heap of junk.

[Lower Hangar]

Took VR from BAe Woodford in June 1994 after 4 years às Programme Manager of the 146 to RJ Update programme. What's happened to the 146 Flight Sim that sat in the middle of the airfield ?

[boogienights]

All going less the simulator (College), Fire Station (Heritage Centre) and Vulcan.

[AtomKraft]

In todays "great" Britain, when it's a choice between MONEY NOW, and anything else, MONEY NOW always wins.

If it's a choice between going for the jugular, as they say in the building 'trade', and anything else.....they go for the jugular every single time.

The UK is a money grabbing ****hole of a place these days.

Woodford? Just so much real estate waiting to be turned into some money, for someone.

Nothing else matters.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

It's not just UK. Can you imagine US funding Apollo these days?

[AtomKraft]

Shaggy.

What you say is correct, but it doesn't make it right.

I live and work in India nowadays- and there's plenty wrong here too, to be sure.

It's nice though, just to pay what something is worth. 10p buys you a coca cola. Not £1.99.

It rip off Britain, where we know the price of everything, a coke is twenty times what it costs here. But they can still make profit on that 10p coke.....

Britain rips my knitting these days.

Woodford is entirely typical of what's wrong with the UK. Short term gain and bollocks to everything else.

It's the exact opposite of what put the great in Great Britain, and it will eventually ruin the place.

IMHO, of course....;)

[Evanelpus]

Woodford? Just so much real estate waiting to be turned into some money, for someone.

Nothing else matters.

As was the case with Filton, Hatfield, Bitteswell.......the list goes on.:*

This isn't something new and will continue to the end of time. Get over it and move on would be my suggestion.:ok:

[FAStoat]

The 146 Analogue and Digital Sims were bought by TNT Global Express Airlines,as far as I am aware, so that they can train and Type Rate in house direct from the Flying Training School at Challeroi,or Brussels South as Ryanair used to call it.
It is less than 3 months to Vote to kick this Coalition's arse,and hopefully wipe out the Lib Dems from the face of the earth.This load of dreamers promise another 200,000 houses at a 20% discount without any of the infrastructure required to support it.In Hampshire we have had to endure another 2000 houses on Farm Land under the Pickles enforced developement,with a Kiddies School,a Pub and a Supermarket a new Clinic/Surgery.This has now been changed to a larger Pub,and NO clinic/surgery.No more roads or road enlarging/widening.There is talk of Worthy Down,Ex FAA,RAF,now Army being sold off again for housing as very close to A34,M3,but all the roads linking are gridlocked at peek times already!!
When I used to go to Woodford,there were loads of very fine large house on the way,that will now have perpetual traffic chaos outside,as it will be impossible to develope any form of new infrastructure there.It is already congested enough,but money talks and quality of life will be eroded dramatically,as is the case down here.
It is time to really consider a UKIP Vote,as it may fall for such a fringe Party to make up the difference to gain a Conservative Government with UKIP Alliance.Any hairbrained UKIP schemes would never see the light of day,and a more sensible Services Friendly,Less EU controlled Legislature,More Immigration Controlled Government might ensue!!
Just a thought,and on many peoples minds down here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

UKIP would be even worse. They are a two-issue party; Europe and immigration. That's it! And they haven't even thought those issue through. Would Hitachi be building a new train factory in Newton Aycliffe if were outside the EU? How much other business investment would depart these shores if we left Europe? How much would fail to come here which otherwise will?

They are 'The Man In The Pub Who Knows All The Answers' party, but in fact is thick as pig sh1t and knows nowt.

Oh, and if UKIP split the Tory vote then Labour will get in again. Do we really need another economic meltdown?

[ZOOKER]

I can hear the factory being demolished from home. Half of the site is in Stockport MBC's area, the eastern bit is Cheshire East.
970 houses planned for the western half of the site, talking to some Woodford residents recently who think a further 2000 on the eastern half are being mooted.
The SMBC plan was for 700 dwellings, but the increase is due to the casting vote of one c*ck-knocker , who doesn't even live near the area. What is 'planned' is a light-bulb shaped ghetto, with one way in and the same way out.
That's in addition to almost 3000 houses planned between EGCD and Wilmslow.
The integration of EGCC/EGCD traffic was never a problem, even during the Woodford Airshows.

[Sir George Cayley]

Vince, UKIP are now a 3 issue party. Manston is in the mix.

[Wodrick]

That's in addition to almost 3000 houses planned between EGCD and Wilmslow.

Where, pray tell,are they going to put those, there doesn't seem to be the space from what I remember.

[avturboy]

Where, pray tell,are they going to put those, there doesn't seem to be the space from what I remember.

On the east side of the A34 bypass, opposite to the Handforth Dean retail area and running south towards Wilmslow.

[Krystal n chips]

" On the east side of the A34 bypass, opposite to the Handforth Dean retail area and running south towards Wilmslow"

That will be nice. Scenic views, for some, of the "road to nowhere", more gridlock on the A34.....but convenient for John Lewis, Marks and Sainsbury's outlets if nothing else.

They should sell like hot cakes !

The SMBC vote, wouldn't, by any chance belong to a member with the same name as an adjacent county because if so this would come as no surprise given the, ahem, "past track record"

[ZOOKER]

Also, Next have planning permission for a store on the old 'Airparks' site, NE of TESCO. But, work on the MAELR, (EGCC to the A6), has begun, and should be complete in 2017.

Krystal, not this time, but you will find the individual's initials on some televisions. It also sounds like the name of a comedian you might find on on Blackpool's North Pier.

[Wodrick]

The number of dog walks I have done on that land .............

I am glad that if, by some great misfortune, I ever return to England alive, it will not be to that area but much further South.

Ruined

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Ruined? Come on, Handforth Dean was never leafy Cheshire; it was always, in my living memory at least (and I'm an old git), an urban built-up area of busy roads and scrubby fields with suburban houses backing onto them and a massive council estate nearby. And the RAF MU of course. The real countryside always did start south of Wilmslow, and still does.

My worry is that it's this wonderful 'golden triangle' of Cheshire (an area enclosed by Wilmslow, Knutsford, and Prestbury) that is at risk from development.

It will start, no doubt, with development along the Alderley bypass. Indeed, even before that road opened only very strong local opposition defeated an attempt by Tesco to build a store in the green belt where that bypass rejoins the A34 at the south end. And because the local authority is dragging its feet over a Local Plan for development, builders or their agents are banging in applications right left and centre for speculative development in and around Wilmslow / Alderley on green belt land.

[ZOOKER]

Just walked past the factory entrance. You can now see Sponds Hill from Woodford Garden Centre. :{

[ZOOKER]

Shaggy, that "Golden Triangle" is obviously the prime route for HS2.
Wilmslow stockbrokers and WAG handbag-buyers from Alderley Edge need to be in Londinium ASAP.
Which is good news.........Because no one else in Cheshire does!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Shaggy, that "Golden Triangle" is obviously the prime route for HS2.
Wilmslow stockbrokers and WAG handbag-buyers from Alderley Edge need to be in Londinium ASAP.
Which is good news.........Because no one else in Cheshire does!

London is 1 hour 47 minutes from Wilmslow by Virgin's tilting Pendolino - an excellent service. There are 3 trains an hour in each direction from Manchester to London, one per hour of which serve Wilmslow. No need for HS2 to route this way. In fact, I suspect Wilmslow - London train times will increase post HS2.

However, HS2 route as proposed is the best one overall for the nation, despite that.

[avturboy]

London is 1 hour 47 minutes from Wilmslow by Virgin's tilting Pendolino - an excellent service. There are 3 trains an hour in each direction from Manchester to London, one per hour of which serve Wilmslow. No need for HS2 to route this way. .... .... .

I use the Stockport to Euston service quite often, as do member of my family, in round number the journey is two hours, which is great. HS2 may offer to improve this, but in reality the numbers really don't stack up to offer any material improvement.

Even if the journey time was reduced from 2 hours to 1hr 30 mins, I'm at loss to understand how this would have such an improvement on business productivity, which is what some of the supporters would have us believe

[philbky]

In the early 1980s the journey from Stockport to Euston was 2hrs 20 to 2hrs 35 depending on the route and the particular train. I assume avturboy wouldn't object to going back to that schedule as, based on his statement, the current timings show no significant improvement on the 1980s timings.

From years of commuting to London for business from the mid 1960s to the mid 1980s, I can tell him that each improvement in journey times helps take the pressure off when travelling between Euston and your first and last meetings of the day and an extra half hour may enable a better meetings schedule. Again, getting up for a train at 07.00 and not getting home until 21.00 on a regular basis is not the best way of life and if HST only allows business travellers to have an extra half hour in bed in the morning and get back to the family half an hour earlier in the evening, that has benefits in terms of health, family relationships and this reflects on people's attitude to work.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

It should be remembered that HS2 isn't being built primarily for reduced journey times, but to add much-needed capacity to a creaking Victorian railway system that is fast approaching 'full'. Indeed it IS full on some routes at some times preventing running of much-needed pax services. Rail freight is also considerably constrained at present by a lack of 'paths'.

HS2 will alleviate this at lest for the north - south corridor (the busiest) and it's cheaper to build a high speed railway these days (civil engineering is cheaper as steep gradients are not a problem - look at TGV) than a conventional one so it's a no brainer to be high speed.

[stan.sted]

Woodfords closure was on the cards to join Hatfield, Kingston, Weybridge and Dunsfold the minute Bae set up Arlington securities to exploit its 'land bank' of airfields close to the capital or other metropolitan areas for prime housing .
The 146/RJ/RJX could have run for a hundred years and would still not have produced the profits the sale of the land of Hatfields 890 acres 20 miles from charing cross have given Bae. Its sad that everyone thought there would be a new dawn when Bae came into fruition, but sadly it was not to be.The old companies it replaced were at least aviation minded, the new board struggled with long term vision and returns and reverted to type- sell the land=quick profit.Woodford was probably sold to property developers years ago. Charles Masefield gave the excuse to Hatfields workforce that ATC issues were the main driver having to move north, he appears to have said the same at Woodford.
Reading the progression of the thread, we now have concerns about the amount of traffic that will pass through the 'golden triangle', these are probably the same people that bitched about the noise from the airfield, some people are never happy!

[SpringHeeledJack]

Apparently today the bulldozers thrust a terminal blow upon the Avro factory of yore. What a shame :{


SHJ

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I've been reading 'Woodford in Pictures' (as it says, mostly pictures but with some extensive captions). I am amazed at the short life of many Jetstreams, 146s, and ATPs (well, perhaps no surprise at the latter). There'd be a picture of a brand new aeroplane in, say 1992, and by the turn of the century it had been scrapped!

[MARK9263]

I have included a link to a number of photos taken today (6th April). Not long now!


Ringway Publications - Woodford - Demolition of the hangars begins - Friday 6th February 2015 (http://www.ringwaypublications.com/other-airports/woodford-air-show-michael-blank/woodford-demolition-of-the-hangars-begins-friday-6th-february-2015/)

[avturboy]

Drove past the main gates a couple days ago, seem so odd not to see the buildings. :{

Does anyone know if they intend to keep the more recently built Avro House, perhaps with a view to refurbishing and letting as business space?

[MARK9263]

I have included a link to photos showing the latest update on the vandalism of Woodford. Still standing, for now, are the flight sheds at the bottom of the airfield plus the original 1924 AVRO hangar.

Ringway Publications - Woodford - Demolition of the hangars begins - Friday 6th February 2015 (http://www.ringwaypublications.com/other-airports/woodford-air-show-michael-blank/woodford-demolition-of-the-hangars-begins-friday-6th-february-2015/)


Mark

[Evanelpus]

Charles Masefield gave the excuse to Hatfields workforce that ATC issues were the main driver having to move north, he appears to have said the same at Woodford.

We used to call him sidewinder coz he could talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. Two faced t:mad:t.

[rcmarple]

Taken a couple of weeks ago from the main gate:

http://s24.postimg.org/xg15auf4l/IMG_0236.jpg

[SpringHeeledJack]

"One day son, this will all be houses……" :hmm:


SHJ

[Krystal n chips]

I never thought the office block, being comparatively modern, would be demolished as well...

On the other hand, I suppose an office block and car park would devalue the soon to be residences nestling in the leafy Cheshire countryside....and upsetting the sensibilities of the residents of Anson Avenue.... or whatever token gesture is offered by way of a historical reminder of the past.

[avturboy]

I never thought the office block, being comparatively modern, would be demolished as well...


I've just been to see how things look today, it's heartbreaking to see the demolition progress, about 50% of Avro House (the newer building) is now gone, can been seen from the lane which runs down to the old Avro Golf Club.

However on a slightly positive note the Avro Heritage Museum looks like it's taking shape, it no longer looks like the fire station and the exterior appears to be finished with a new colour scheme and it now carries a sign stating that it is the Avro Heritage Museum.

[ETOPS]

the residents of Anson Ave

Here's an outline plan - maybe we could suggest the street names?


http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x429/SK121NZ/Harrow%202c_zps2hr9tnwz.jpg

[Wander00]

Canberra Crescent

[ETOPS]

Aaahh yes the Avro Canberra :ugh:

Think we might stir up some old rivalries unless we stick to Tudor Terrace and Lancaster Lane :ok:

[barry lloyd]

Profiteers Precinct?

(I deliberately left out the apostrophe because most councils do not understand English well enough to know where they correctly belong).

[Wander00]

Norf west innit!

[Wodrick]

Are Mohne, Eder and Sorpe Close in bad taste. How about Dambuster Boulevard ?

[Preon]

Canberra visiter to Woodford 24th May 1967 PR.3 prototype VX181 pale blue scheme , can't have had long to go?
Landing at MIA last week I could see 603 in the distance surely it must be getting a tad green and delicate?

[JW411]

You must have good eyesight if you saw 603 from Miami!

[ZeBedie]

XM603 is in a very sad state, but not beyond saving.

[scorpion63]

Aaahh yes the Avro Canberra :ugh:

Think we might stir up some old rivalries unless we stick to Tudor Terrace and Lancaster Lane :ok:


The very last flying Canberra bomber variant, WK163 was built at Woodford by Avro so they built them to last.

[exmanman]

Last chance to hear the howl over Woodford :{

Vulcan To The Sky - Press Release 28th May (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/670/82/Salute-to-the-V-Force-Tour.html)

[JW411]

XM603:

My connection with Woodford was spending far too much of my time teaching in the BAe146 simulators there. I cannot tell you how many times I drove past the Vulcan. For quite a few years, she was looked after by a bunch of enthusiasts, many of whom had built her in the first place. They even re-painted her in the original nuclear white colour scheme.

At one point, she was fully serviceable apart from one item from the fuel management system which the RAF had re-possessed for use in the belated Falklands campaign. I can even remember her being towed over to the end of the old short runway to do engine runs.

Then, the modern management of BAe started to make things very difficult for them. Old Vulcans do not make money and they could just become something of a liability. (This was the same sort of modern management that occurred in BA when they decimated their airliner collection at Cosford).

Anyway, I gave up going to Woodford in 2009 and the last I heard about XM603 was that the management had tried to have her scrapped but then discovered that she was still full of fuel. The process of getting the fuel out was put out to tender and the best quote given was £50,000!!!! That made them think.

Which reminds me of a funny story. I had a gliding friend who was an engineer on Vulcans at Akrotiri in Cyprus (9 and 35?). He was in the cockpit of a Vulcan inside the hangar and the name of the game was to de-fuel the aircraft before maintenance. Apparently the Vulcan had an awful lot of fuel tanks and they all had to be de-fuelled in a very strict order to maintain the C of G.

So Chalky told me that he was sat in the left seat when he glanced out the window. The hangar was sinking! Then it dawned on him that the hangar wasn't sinking but it was him who was going up! He ended up hanging from the nosewheel while the aircraft gracefully sat on her backside.

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Fishaman]

Great post JW411


Our paths may have crossed at Woodford as I served my apprenticeship there 90-94.
I remember sheltering under 603 on one very wet airshow day.

[Blue_Circle]

I'm a bit late joining the discussion of this but I can confirm that XM603 has survived the laying waste of most of Woodford and has been moved to the new Avro Heritage Museum (http://avroheritagemuseum.co.uk/) at what used to be (I think) the fire station.

[ZeBedie]

Yes, I think it's being restored as part of the (fire station) museum.

[STATSMAN]

We will be open to the public from 13th November.

[Preon]

Great to hear of the progress made at Woodford's heritage centre but concerned to read that The Manchester Museum of Science 'MOSI' maybe having a clear out of it's aircraft collection because of building maintenance issues.

Sadly rail enthusiasts are also affected by another issue as the museum's iconic Liverpool Road Station faces dis-connection from the UK network through re design of the Ordsall Chord.

I just hope the resident Shackleton isn't facing a latter day Dougal-loo massacre?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

MoSI's main line disconnection is sad as it was the original L&M terminus. Far worse is the cutting back of the rail system within MoSI to make operation of the railway (with its replica 1830 L&M 'Planet' loco) nonviable due lack of length of running line.

It would be great if Avro Heritage could accommodate the 707 at Woodford.

[742-xx]

I had the 'privelege' of visiting the former Woodford site recently for the Vulcan Farewell Tour.
Having flown there in the past from Barton, I have to say visiting the place in this state was quite unpleasant.
What a sobering sight. The old control tower surrounded by rubble, of what was the runway, I reckon.
That said, hats off to whoever organised it's use for this purpose.

Anyway, I thought that they said that XM603 was going to be undercover, inside the Heritage Centre ?

[avturboy]

Anyway, I thought that they said that XM603 was going to be undercover, inside the Heritage Centre ?

No, sadly that was never part of the plan.

Heritage centre is due to open soon, but XM603 will be an outside exhibit.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

XM602 (nose section) is inside the museum.

[STATSMAN]

We are now open. Look at the web site avroheritagemuseum.co.uk for all the details. You can look in person at the piles of rubble!

[ETOPS]

The house builder - Redrow Homes - has started releasing plans and details of this large scale development.

One snippet caught my eye - bearing in mind the prototype MR-4 airframes were scrapped here - the name of one the first roads to be built....


"Nimrod Grave" :rolleyes:




Actually it's Nimrod Grove but I ask you :ugh:

[Allan Lupton]

The house builder - Redrow Homes - has started releasing plans and details of this large scale development.

One snippet caught my eye - bearing in mind the prototype MR-4 airframes were scrapped here - the name of one the first roads to be built....

"Nimrod Grave" :rolleyes:
Actually it's Nimrod Grove but I ask you :ugh:
Stranger things happen - I live in a town where a 1960s road name is a typing error and a developer has just perpetrated another. Seeking to commemorate Martin Maddan,the MP who piloted an important (to the town) bill through parliament, they called their bit of urban cramming Madden Gardens - and maddeningly we are told it can't be changed now.:\

[Kieron Kirk]

"Stranger things happen - I live in a town where a 1960s road name is a typing error and a developer has just perpetrated another."

Even stranger, in The Royal Borough of Kingston on Thames following the re-development of the old Sopwith factory in Canbury Park Road.

In 1995 Laing Homes came up with "Sigrest Court"

Poor old Fred Sigrist must have been spinning in his grave, but not his grove !

Chiarain.