European/US bases China Southern: a lie?

[scottman]

Hi all,

Just a heads up for those of you who would be tempted to get a widebody Boeing rating With a euro or US base, Don't go now!

Friends of mine have joined CSA more than 6 months ago And still don't see any of those bases opening anytime soon.


The agencies are lying unashamedly just to get pilots in and then don't look after them as usual.

Only apply if you are prepared to spend 20 or 45 days in a row in Guangzhou and commute on days OFF.

Hope the situation will change soon (in China things can take some time though...)for those who have left their previous jobs for CSA and are stuck there with a 22000$ bond.

Happy landings

[Luke SkyToddler]

They've been doing it for years ... a good friend of mine resigned his command with a Gulf major back in 2008 on the promise of a European base with China Southern ... worked his 3 months notice ... literally the day before he was due to arrive in China to start his training he was informed by email that the European base was no longer available and he would be China based.

They just lie, because they know once you've done your notice at your previous employer you're screwed and you can't go back

[PBY]

The amount of lying that is done in China has to be first experienced, before it can be believed! I also spent some time there. That is one of the reasons why they cannot get pilots even with the amount of money they are offering.
Number one problem is a pollution though. Number two lies, number three they cannot get anything organized. If they could train they own pilots, they would not hire foreigners. But they cannot organize training either. It is a sad state.

[Birdstrike737]

It's actually a little more complicated. At CSA the fleet manager is "God" and decides these things without any other managerial interference. The Airbus 330 pilots with Australian citizenship are generally quite happy with their numerous reverse-roster "bases" in Australia. I have seen their rosters and they're similar to pilots at legacy airlines in the US and Europe.
For the people wanting Europe and USA basing, it's a bit of a hypothetical. Yes they're using it as a recruitment tool (why wouldn't they?) but based on the success of the A330 Australian bases, there is no reason to believe that it's an outright lie. The story at present is "we need eight line-checked-and-released captains to request a reverse-roster base, then the fleet manager for that type will decide." For the 777, it is expected; for the 787 the answer is a very open and honest "not gonna happen."

People wanting firm guarantees of such things are, quite simply, in the wrong business.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Luke Sky Toddler…

YOU'RE BACK!!!!! Awesome, and welcome back!!

Kap

[Viking101]

Interesting.

Do they lie about the DEC on the A330 too then?

Thinking about a base in Oz it doesn't seem unrealistic however I have zero experience working for Chinese people.

Also I hear the medical check you do before joining is atrocious- biopsy of the liver included!!

[Birdstrike737]

Medical checks in China: it's not as overboard as you sometimes hear. Yes, they nearly always "find something," and you have to fix it. I have not heard of a liver biopsy but a friend of mine actually had to have his gall bladder removed, which sounds bizarre but is true. He's now a 787 captain in China, however, and quite happy even without the gall bladder.

Not that many actually "fail" the medical. Mostly, they just tell you they need this or that report/CT Scan/MRI/24-hr blood pressure report/cheat x-ray/other proof of your being ok. Then after you provide it, they issue your medical, and you're off and running.

It works like that.

[USMCProbe]

Birdstrike;

LOL. Yes you are on your way after the first medical. Until your next medical. The new doctor notices your scar and discovers you don't have a gall bladder and tells you that you need to have a gall bladder transplant, and you are med down until you complete the procedure.

The medicals aren't difficult. They are insane. Literally. They practice medicine like they drive. Have you even seen them drive?

As far as foreign bases, you really can't count on it. Just like western airlines, they change their fleet plans regularly. The CS guys based in OZ are happy at the moment, but next week they might decide to put a triple on the route and they get 2 weeks notice that they are now CAN based. Air China did this to a bunch of European pilots 5 years ago. I met a bunch of them right after it happened. I believe a bunch of them resigned.

If it works out for you, China can be a good deal. I worked at a Chinese airline from 2010-2012. We were treated great. When I got the contract there were 9 expats. A couple of times they got up to 16 or 17, then would go back to 7 or 8. Right now there are only 2 pilots still there that were there when I left.

It is a very insecure job. You never know how long it will last. It is best suited for a pilot on a leave of absence from another airline. If it doesn't work out, which it probably won't, you still have a job somewhere else.

[Viking101]

Yeah I figured the reality would be something like that.

Currently Im in the low cost business but I have had enough and want to get out in the big world. Seems to be a few contract jobs out there but hard to compare all options.

Seems to me CAAC are behind the western world, why these medicals that are insane and beyond our EASA class 1?

So the opinion is not to go for it I guess...

Thanks for the heads up guys

[Birdstrike737]

Lots of people trying for the China Southern 777 direct-entry captain job these days, including more than a few Emirates 777 drivers. Either things are worse than reported at Emirates, or the CSA gig isn't as bad as some people think.
It is definitely true that if you are NOT reverse-roster based on another continent, you had better find a way to love Guangzhou, China, because that's where you'll be most of the time.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Birdstrike737…

It's definitely that things have gotten so bad at EK these days. And will continue to erode. I've heard not only DEC's but FO's as well heading from here to CSA for the T7. Of course, the image is the only thing that matters at EK and as long as it looks good to the outside world… there's no problem. But from the inside…. it's falling apart.

The wheels at EK are slowly starting to fall off…. 100 cabin crew per WEEK resigning. Pursers flying as Grade 2 (Economy… a new hire position) because all the resignations. Crews having to do double turns somedays again, due lack of crew. Both pilots and CC are leaving much more significantly these days than I've ever seen it in my many years here.

That's the reason… Still wish China had non-astronaut physicals. I wonder if someday they will come to realize they can't man their fleet and someone will say… "Ya know… maybe we should lighten up just a bit on our rigid medical requirements". Nah… never happen!

[vfenext]

And the winner for the most exaggerated post on Pprune this year goes to......drumroll please.....Kapitanleutnant!

[Kapitanleutnant]

And the winner for the biggest EK management supporter goes to…. drumroll please…. Vfenext!

I think you wanted the "I Love Emirates" thread which is over on… umm… lets' see…. well, I guess there isn't one. WONDER WHY?

But you should start that thread!

I stand by what I say…

K

[clear to land]

Vfenext- can you please advise what facts the kapitanleutnant listed are untrue? Awaiting your reply- but not holding my breath!! To be honest I would suggest he has understated the numbers.....

[Panther 88]

I nominate Kap for UNDER exaggeration. In fact his numbers are off a bit. Actual verified numbers of CC resigning per week is 125-150. Fact my friend. Straight from numerous ab initio training supervisors. Flights going out with several pursers on board, due to the fact that the junior crews are bailing out. CC crews are now doing unannounced double turns due to the fact not enough crews to man the subsequent turnarounds.

[mach85]

Guys,
There are numerous threads about the working conditions at Ek. This thread is about 'potential' out basing with CSA. Visit the Middle East forum if you want to join in the numerous threads about EK working conditions.

Lets keep this thread on topic.

Cheers all.

[Kapitanleutnant]

You are correct, Mach85….

Someone had mentioned it was either bad at EK or chinese medicals weren't so bad as to why so many EK guys were leaving for CSA. Just clarifying on that posters comment.

But apologies nonetheless.

Kap.

[doniedarko]

My limited understanding is that the Oz A330 bases are scheduled pax flights. In effect making it far easier to roster than cargo. The 777 being mainly cargo. The Oz skippers are 'allegedly' very happy. Not surprising really with a home base good salary and as little as 12 nights away. The Europeans I know on the 777 can only look on with envy and the promised euro base seems as distant as ever.

[VLS with ice]

Are there any reverse rostering bases yet in Europe, airbus or boeing?

[OSDELATROPO]

Nothing in Europe yet... Be careful With agencies wishfull thinking ( or lies...)!

No plan for any Airbus european base I heard of anyway.

[scottman]

Last update from CSA 777 guys Being promised a Euro base:
AMS Base will open when 6-8 guys are released on the line, BUT line training now is expected to last 4 to 6 months! So no base before Sept 15 at the earliest!
In the meantime the guys are stuck in CAN with 8 days off a month even if no flights rostered because of training bottleneck(so 6 nights home max after commuting), on training pay (400USD/day no overtime paid) And paying for food And accomodation ( around 2000USD/ month)...:ugh:
Who said that slavery has been abolished? Certainly not in China guys!

In total count on about 1 full year to get what is advertised (money And roster)by agencies!

Sounds like it but it is not a joke, if you consider the job for the reverse scheduling out of Europe be very careful: agencies will not Tell you the truth.

If any positive change ever happens one day, I will duly report here.

Cheers

[pseulight]

Thanx for your heads-up scottman. Any more info always appreciated!

I'm heading over to CAN to take a long hard look this month.

Cheers guys,
P.

[Birdstrike737]

Good news: Amsterdam "reverse roster" base opening Sept. 1 with 8 captains, expected to get to 25 captains within a year and will then be considered a Europe-wide 777 captain's reverse-roster base.

Bad news: all of the negative stuff about CSA in this thread is true. There's other stuff even worse, but I'm not going to get into it right now.

[de facto]

China is like every flight.
Expect the worst and hope for the best and you will manage.

[WJAPilot]

YVR 787 Has been open since the beginning of June and has been operating as a RSP with 8 guys.

Under the new contract there are maximum time limits set for training pay - no longer can you get stuck on it for the year -

New contract also offers three options

RSP (if base is up and running)
CAN base 20/10 rotation that you can add 2 leave days per month and make it technically 12days minus commute to from
CMT commute roster min 8 days off guaranteed --- (not sure anyone would chose this one )

The former 45on 15 off is no longer available.

787 good flying not bad schedules - some overtime avail.
777 lots of cargo out of shanghai and deadheading to and from CAN to shanghai - giving you lots of delays and schedule unpredictability.

[WJAPilot]

Gammon

I believe it says it is the 45/15 that disappeared

The remaining other options are

RSP scheduled -

CAN base - 20/10 kk tickets to and from which you can add leave days (max twenty per year ) thus making 10/12 months 12days.

Commute with a min guarantee of 8 days off per month.

Theres a lot of **** there for sure and the sim fail to RHS is a issue that needs to be dealt with.

[WJAPilot]

Flaps,

I never suggested I was currently working there ...

I chat daily with guys both on the 77 and the 87


As for the modes argument - ....

FPs who chose mode CAN will be based at Guangzhou and shall be granted no less than 10 consecutive days off provided they meet the requirement of 5.2.14 (technically online after training) The 10 days off will include travel time. The Company shall arrange monthly leave for the RSP. (meaning kk tix)

this is basically the same as the 20/10 roster other than months where I guess there are 31days with an 80hr expectation - with additional leave days as per the leave section of the agreement which states....

type rated - starts there next month in which they obtain the type rating, starts to operate as captain, and or operates first mission. If these cannot be achieved in three calendar months, then annual/sick leave will commence in month 4.

non type rated - starts there next month in which they obtain the type rating, starts to operate as captain, and or operates first mission. If these cannot be achieved within 6 calendar months then annual/sick leave will commence in month 7.

for the remainder of the 1st year each the TR or NTR accrues 1 day leave per month after the time periods listed above

in the second year each pilot is given 20 leave days in total.

pilot maximum days off allowed to be scheduled when utilizing leave days is 15.


I could go into the other two options which basically are RSP and CMT but they only guarantee 8 days off each plus leave which includes commute time.

This is straight out of the draft contract copy that was in effect about a week ago -

Would that not constitute the 20/10 80 hr mode Im suggesting ?