DECs - It may have just gotten a lot worse

[fliion]

Being hearing from two sources 100 on the cards.

Latest FCN specifically mentions it in brief for Pilot recruiter.

The sources are not mgt level so would need confirmation.

If true - I think the high time FOs are going to be mighty ticked.

f.

[Wizofoz]

They've gotten themselves into a right old bind, and it might just be inevitable.

[SOPS]

It was denied at a wash up two days ago. Probably means it's true.

[springbok449]

As with everything else, always going for the short term fix with no regard to the long term effects.... That will do wonders to the morale amongst the troops!

[anson harris]

I wasn't around when it happened last time. Those of you that were - do you think that the general morale is worse this time around?

Genuine question btw... I shouldn't have to add that, but, well, it's PPRuNe.

[springbok449]

The morale is MUCH worse this time around...

[glofish]

The mood might be worse, but what is more critical is the fact that the readiness and willingness to actually leave is exponentially higher. Add to this the slightly better situation in the "West" and EK is digging deeper into the doo doo.

[fatbus]

Not the first and not the last time DEC's have or will be used. 100 is a big number, plus if there is 60/70 777 Capt. going to the 380 that alone will take almost the entire year to do. If DEC 's were to happen I would think late I the year. I've heard , contrary to what people think, there is not enough FO' s that meet the upgrade requirement . Minimum s will not be reduced. Success rate on upgrade has not been great.
Everyone says that EK has got themselves in a bind with trying to attract new pilots, simple answer DEC's and watch how many will apply. Same as before. Slow upgrades means not as many new hire FO' s required. Moral - who cares is the EK management motto.

[Mr Good Cat]

DECs inevitable I think.

LoCo short-haul guys will be easily lured by salary and 500 seat push-button aeroplanes, even flying the rumoured 105 hrs per month with a 45k 5-year bond.

I know I would have been lured despite this message board.

:ooh:

[what_goes_up]

I've heard , contrary to what people think, there is not enough FO' s that meet the upgrade requirement . Minimum s will not be reduced.
The minimum on the 380 has just been reduced... So less drain on the 777 fleet... Well, at least that was the status quo 2 days ago... :)

[Eau de Boeing]

reduced to what?

[donpizmeov]

Upright and breathing I believe.

[delorean79]

EK is spending good money in advertising.

https://twitter.com/timmermansr/status/563777906506477568

There's also advertising in PPrune.

No word about the A380 tho.

[Nikita81]

There is an ad on my blog as well (France). Still laughing.

http://i61.tinypic.com/9uypm9.jpg

[donpizmeov]

Dashman, if you had taken advice from this forum in any of the last 7+ yrs you would see nothing you stated is out of the ordinary. Funny how shiny big aircraft syndrome clouds judgement. Best you improve your research before your next move.

[Sop_Monkey]

When I had been interviewed in the past (another outfit) I asked the question,

"if I was selected, would I be standing on any toes or jumping the queue"?

One responded, why on earth would you be worried about that? Answer, I do have some sort of morals. Their response to my question told me all I needed to know.

[ManaAdaSistem]

Nothing in my inbox, so they have not started yet.
Before you all get too excited, remember the thread started by an EK Effoh asking for airlines that hire experienced Effohs for captain positions?
And how many EK captains are applying for DEC positions elsewhere?

Supply and demand.
At the moment I have five airlines sending me emails.

[Skyjob]

Would be interesting to find out if they were to offer the first few DEC positions to those individuals who passed the selection last time but fell short of course allocation due to changes in recruitment strategy.

[Emma Royds]

I had heard back in December that a 'small' number were coming from Qantas on leave without pay.

It just remains to be seen how many EK feel they need.

[Pointer]

The funny part of the Hugh posters in Amsterdam is that they hang right outside the crew center of.. KLM.. Or should I say.. Air France Amsterdam base?? Probably trying to scoop up the pilots from Martinair who are so lovingly being cared for by their colleagues.. Or maybe FO's that look at 14yrs till Cmd with Transavia? Emirates still has the nose to sniff out any airline in trouble as to fill their ranks..

[CATI]

They should advertise around Lufthansa's surrounding...let's see what will come in near future in terms of Eurowings :D

[JammedStab]

I had heard back in December that a 'small' number were coming from Qantas on leave without pay.



I thought that it was mandatory that you resign from your previous airline.

[Emma Royds]

Officially yes but they have made exceptions.

[Clandestino]

DEC? I ain't no coming over unless commuting is offered. :}

[Outatowner]

DECs - It may have just gotten a lot worse
What exactly just got worse? Worse than what?

If you mean the airline just hired anther lot of decrepit, physically-marginal, barely trainable, silly old farts from N. American legacies like they did two DEC seasons ago, that might make sense. Otherwise, state your real agenda, fliioon. What exactly are you trying to say in your casual, "drive-by" post?

On the off chance you mean an ALLEGED recruitment of DECs will impact the upgrade prospects of the FO fraternity (and I use that word extremely loosely in such a fragmented, incohesive lot as we have here) then just take a look at the number of people bitching over the years about how their own promises of "fast-track" upgrades were not delivered upon.

Fast track upgrade = slow track DEC. No sympathy here. They can GFTs.

What a silly and pointless thread.

[Emma Royds]

Maybe it's just me but that post made no sense to me at all. :zzz:

[Am NOT Sure]

What is the real reason EK hires DEc

To lift burden from the simulators by providing fewer sessions than upgrades ?

Management has little faith in the passing rates of effos?

I am not joining until March but I long for answers

[Skyjob]

Am NOT Sure - I think you could see the simplistic filling of a LHS position in training management as follows: ideally internally upgrade before using external sources as you are putting a "known quantity" into the left hand seat, with a training followed and assessed over yeas in the company vs an unknown sourced entity.

To achieve this a new FO needs to be recruited and trained to enable (after line training) a SFO to proceed onto the upgrade process. Once passed he can take the available LHS position. Should a candidate fail this process, then another SFO proceeds until one is successful.

Should the requirements for LHS pilots exceed training capability/capacity as described above, due LHS outflow, simulator availability or fleet expansion, time has to be saved somewhere in the process.

This time saving can be achieved by using DECs, as they will occupy the available seat the new FO would take in the classroom for type conversion, but then (after line training) these DECs are immediately the LHS the company requires, without the need for the SFO process after a new FO.
Thus DECs are reducing the training time requirement/capacity by the time/capability required for converting SFOs.

Advantage: cost, time and capacity saving in training management.
Disadvantage: upsetting SFOs waiting for their "turn" for promotion.

Sometimes companies, even after meticulous training management planning, are faced with a projected future shortfall in LHS using their preferred method of internal upgrades.
Options available are to reduce SFO upgrade passing requirements/standards, thus increasing SFO passing rates to LHS and reducing slightly the capacity required to fill LHS, or resort to DECs for some time. If additional simulator capacity exists, using that can raise output, but in absence the DEC route is sometimes only option.

[JammedStab]

Officially yes but they have made exceptions.

Under what sort od circumstances will they make an exception for not resigning at your previous airline?

[ruserious]

Under what sort od circumstances will they make an exception for not resigning at your previous airline?

Desperation!

[ironbutt57]

If you mean the airline just hired anther lot of decrepit, physically-marginal, barely trainable, silly old farts from N. American legacies

they would have to be silly to join your lot there

[Avid Aviator]

Skyjob,
A well written post, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusion:
Thus DECs are reducing the training time requirement/capacity by the time/capability required for converting SFOs.

The last batch of DECs in 2012 took an average of 5.5 months from joining to line check. They do the full conversion (same as new hire) then the full upgrade (same as SFO) then all the add-ons (freighter, polar etc).

A new hire to FO takes around 2.5 months and an FO to CMD upgrade takes approx 2.5 months as well.

Therefore, there is no training or financial benefit in DECs.

Problems such as lack of Sim time and instructors can be offset with outsourcing (which is already announced as happening to a large extent in 2015).

Probably the only insurmountable argument for DECs is a lack of suitable candidates (FOs) for upgrade. This has happened at times in the past, but there is a long queue of suitable 777 and 330 FOs with all the requirements waiting for a letter at the moment.

[fliion]

No..it's not just you Emma..

; >

f.

[kingpost]

Be honest, this place has had its day, why would anyone bother, unless you're unemployed!!!

[Am NOT Sure]

Sky job thank you .. Informative indeed

Any news on the new hires being trained in England for the 380?

[harry the cod]

And that, Kingpost, is where the nail has been hit firmly on the head, time and time again.

This Company has historically been saved from the brink by failing airlines over the years, just when it needed a large intake of new pilots. Now, however, might be a different story. If, as on a different thread running, the packages are getting better and better in the US, there is no reason why many will stay in EK, let alone join. My concern though, is rather than do the right things to retain and attract good pilots, the minimum will be done and rules and regulations altered. There is absolutely no way that aircraft will be allowed to be parked. SVP'S & DSVP's will not jeopardise their fat salaries for that so will bring in 'temp' measures to cope with the crisis. Sickness policy for cabin crew, no resignation accepted this month due to admin constraints, 30 days leave allocation. These are just some of the examples of a system that's barely trying to keep up, let alone plan for the future. We will see more of these policies and some, no doubt, will conveniently become permanent. This is based on previous history and, as far as I know, there has been no cultural change in senior management to suspect it will be otherwise.

My final concern is what this thread is all about. Unfortunately, because of all of the above, the type of person joining now is not what they were 10-15 years ago. Not worse, just different. Most are still very good operators and are keen with generally good handling skills from previous LC's. However, they often don't have the previous command time that many F/O's used to have and they don't have the overall experience. They come here with 2500 hours and spend the next 4 years being 'Emiratised'. They're exposed to an increasing number of demotivated captains, often creating a perception that the slightest rule deviation will result in disciplinary action or, worst still, dismissal. You only have to witness the content of some of our ACR's (Arse Covering Report's) to see this. Training for them is based on an assessment of their procedural compliance and knowledge rather than the practical application, using airmanship and resilience. These evaluations are increasingly being undertaken by inexperienced trainers themselves who do not have the confidence or experience to apply common sense. 60 trainers left last year on the Boeing alone, either voluntarily or were asked to go. After 4-5 years the F/O is now expected to breeze an interview in which the skills of airmanship, practical applications of SOP's and resilience are being tested. Is it hardly any surprise then that when we need 200 upgrades this year on the Boeing, 20 have already failed their interview and we're only just into February. Interview failure rate is well over double the normal 10%.

Of course, F/O's need to play their part too. Turning up to interviews late, dirty shirts, non standard uniforms, long hair, unprepared in knowledge. It hardly makes for a good first impression. The same impression when guys turn up for ground school refresher training unprepared and indifferent to having to be in the classroom.

Ultimately, it comes down to attitude. Whilst some F/O's are far from being at the standard they think they're at, the Company has the biggest burden and responsibility to retain and nurture a culture of high professional standards. They can't just verbalise it or print it in SAFA, that actually have to implement it. This starts at the recruiting stage which in turn, will be based on terms and conditions being offered. Offer a poor package, expect to get one in return.

From the sidelines, it's like watching a sports game unfold, never knowing what surprise will shock you next. The problem is, many of us have been watching this same game unfold for the last 15 years. I wonder how many will still be on the field when the final whistle blows!

Harry

[ruserious]

Spot on Harry

[kingpost]

Harry

I think that post closes this thread - you nailed it!!

[glofish]

Don't close this thread, we have no "like" button here.

We need all the applause and consent and spread this article to other threads, especially the ones asking for information about EK!

For nailing, you are one hell of a carpenter, Harry. :ok:

[Red Hackle]

Apparently green cards for pilots are on the verge of being approved by congress. That might also lead to a lot of people leaving especially Zimbabweans and South Africans?

[sheiken around]

Red...

Perhaps you should change your location from Disneyland to "LaLaLand".....

Not gonna happen....

[fliion]

Red

NOT A CHANCE.

Here's why...that would alter the demand and supply curve that ALPA et al has been waiting decades for to finally arrive.

The regional guys would "shut 'Er down" before that - supported by APLA majors...for foreigners "stealing our jobs"

f.

[filejw]

Green card no but H-2b temporary work visa is always possible...

[fatbus]

You might want to look in the latest proposal anout green cards and pilots . US very concerned about not enough pilots . But I would have a good laugh if someone from the sub continent got a green and job withAA/UA/DL before some of the U.S. guys at EK.

[BobDole]

It would probably tick a few of the equal opportunity boxes for them though...
:E
But that's a whole different story :}

[fliion]

Well in fairness, there's always a chance - albeit slim.

The bottom line is the pendulum is swinging. Check out this article from 'Aviation Week' (the American FlightGlobal)

Asia-Pacific Offers Much Opportunity For Expatriate Pilots | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/asia-pacific-offers-much-opportunity-expatriate-pilots)

To give you a flavor:

"Supply and demand in Asia translates to premium pay and opportunities for expatriate pilots: An Airbus A319 or A320 captain willing to move to China for Beijing Capital Airlines right now can earn starting pay of $290,000 a year, including various allowances, safety and retention bonuses. The same pilot could “commute” to work at Beijing Capital—one month on, one month off—and make $193,000 a year."

What grabbed my attention is not the money - but the six months work. IMO KAL is not enough time off.

Show us the $ in May.

f.

[The Turtle]

well that's it, F.....isn't it? It's like what someone said in another post. Many of us have been here 10 yrs or more, its not about the money exactly, but the rosters and lifestyle. one on one off.....sign me up!!


I could do that flying for another decade, easily

[nolimitholdem]

Colleague down the road at the airline-that-dare-noth-speak-its-name, has confirmed going to 1 month on, 1 month off starting in the fall.

Alas, I think only on offer for those 50+. But good to hear it's happening.

[kungfu panda]

Fliion- don't believe all that you read. The agencies publish those Salaries but they are rarely actually achievable. It is like the propaganda put out by the European training institutions to bring in young kids to the industry.

What I would say is that if you are a fit young individual who is good in the simulator then China offers better rewards over the medium term than the middle east. You do need to get your command and a small amount of left seat time before the Chinese will look at you.

[kotakota]

When I was 62 , I and another 62 year old asked to do job share ie month on / month off at an airline just to the south of UAE . Despite the obvious benefits to said airline , ie 1200 hours Captain time for one shared salary , the muppet we were talking to did not understand the concept , thought us evil expats were up to no good , and refused . Two months later my colleague died after a stroke at the controls and I resigned . Two very experienced captains lost . Any airline that can introduce one on / one off for older crew are being very far seeing . The constant Night Returns to the sub continent were the most exhausting flying I ever did .

[Am NOT Sure]

Kotakata
Very relevant!

[JammedStab]

The problem is that if you are there only half the time, but 75% of the pay plus all the other stuff you have to include as an employer, it doesn't make sense at even half the pay. There is still training. I would love to see these airlines offer month on month off but at how much of a reduced pay would you be willing to accept?

I think it would have to be a lot.

[Global Nomad]

Don't agree at all jammed stab.

My question, how much is an airline prepared to pay me for my services?

[Plane_Sailing]

A month on month off contract could easily be financially neutral for an employer. They could greatly reduce housing cost by putting pilot in a cheapish hotel, i.e the premier inn at dubai airport. Also minimise their time in Dubai by rostering only layovers. Added bonus of reduced transport costs.
If there was no schooling allowances, favouring older pilots with grown kids, these two measures would more than cover the extra training costs.
I think the problem is that the demand within the company would be so high it would exacerbate the current pilot shortage.

[BANANASBANANAS]

At the airline which shall not be mentioned it is happening. Captains only, age 50+ and must have at least 3 years service with the airline.

[Trader]

The savings at a ME airline with month on/off is huge!!!! You save on housing, transport, medical, schooling etc. You really think they will keep playing schooling and housing allowances????

If they go to this model my guess is it will work as follows: your pay will still be deposted into a UAE bank acct. Your 'base' will be a virtual/rostering base and the company will roster you as they see fit - no bid etc. Taxes- your responsibilty in the country your reside in. Your pay - exactly the same rate as other collegues. Medical and schooling your own responsibility.

Those savings are SIGNIFICANT and they have the advantage of keeping the senior/experienced pilots on board.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Subject to scrutinising the fine print of the contract I would sign up for that tomorrow.

[CAT3A]

One month on one month off is a dream and it will never happen because They want you to spend your salary in Dubai and not back home.

The whole system here is more clever than you think.

[White Sausage]

Plus, in the one month on they would work you 180 hours to compensate for the one month off...same like in your vacation months. Forget it, they will never do anything that would make our life better, simply because they don't want to. Stone age "management"...

[parabellum]

Plus, in the one month on they would work you 180 hours to compensate for the one month off

Surely, even in the UAE, they have a mandatory monthly or 28 day total that would make the above impossible?

[BigGeordie]

Only time in the seat counts towards the monthly limits. With plenty of ULR 180 hours is quite legal.

[anson harris]

There's only one problem if you were thinking of spending your month off in, say Europe. Tax - the UK for example would only allow you a maximum stay of 90 days a year to remain tax free and more likely 45 if you are married.

[glofish]

Keep on dreaming folks!

Slaves never get part time, employees do.

Although i don't feel as being treated as a slave here, i definitely don't feel being treated as an employee lately ...

Part time will not happen, lowering of the standards will happen though, this includes DEC's

[BigGeordie]

Anson, a lot of people would pay the tax if it meant spending less time in Dubai. Actually sounds like a bit of a bargain to me!