PDA

View Full Version : Drones?


tony draper
2nd Feb 2015, 19:29
Anybody else suspect it wont be long before Guvmint clamps down on there usage in private hands? peeps is having to much fun with them and they cant allow that without charging some kind of tax or requiring a licence.
:uhoh:

Windy Militant
2nd Feb 2015, 19:35
Are we talking about the flying about ones or the ones on Jockastani wailing Octapuses?
Cos them things really need taxing!:uhoh:

Choxolate
2nd Feb 2015, 19:35
Is there a difference between a small drone and a model aircraft?

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2015, 20:21
difference between a small drone and a model aircraft
Easier to fly and can hover, so better platform for photography .

Lon More
2nd Feb 2015, 20:28
Easier to fly and can hover, so better platform for photography .
or rocketry


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocxb8UXY5Cw

funfly
2nd Feb 2015, 20:55
I was a prophet of doom and prophesied that after last Christmas the place would have been full of kids with quadrocopters looking into peoples windows and poking out peoples eyes.

In fact nothing of the sort has happened and it has seemed like a non event despite the fact that thousands of various types were sold, many to children.

There remain some who take video and it seems quite beautiful even if it is intrusive and possible illegal. These people are like the skydivers, there are rules and laws that cover their activities but on the whole they will ignore them.

So taxing their activities will result in little revenue.

Rules of the air apply to all model flying activities and responsible flying would include observing these as well as having adequate insurance in case of accident. Few kids will observe this and, as said, the kids sector has proved to offer no hazard. The 'serious' filmers are adults who must be aware that they are often acting outside of the law and I would suggest that they will choose to ignore this.

FF

Choxolate
2nd Feb 2015, 20:55
You can hover a model helicopter and you cannot, necessarily, hover all types of drone.

So the "hoverability" does not distinguish between a model aircraft and a drone.

tony draper
2nd Feb 2015, 21:37
I would imagine the blokes who own and fly proper Helicopters the Movie and News Industries hire and use must be feeling a tad disquiet.
:uhoh:
There was talk round these parts of the Police deploying Drones to keep toot on us but believe that idea was kicked into touch,give it time though.
:rolleyes:

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2015, 22:15
A good few years back the Liverpool Police announced that they had added a new tool to their armoury - a drone.
Then somebody pointed out to them that they needed a licence (which they didn't have).
Then they 'lost' the drone in the Mersey . . .

13,000 Merseyside Police drone lost as it crashes into River Mersey - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/13000-merseyside-police-drone-lost-3364040)

racedo
2nd Feb 2015, 23:50
A good few years back the Liverpool Police announced that they had added a new tool to their armoury - a drone.
Then somebody pointed out to them that they needed a licence (which they didn't have).
Then they 'lost' the drone in the Mersey . . .

13,000 Merseyside Police drone lost as it crashes into River Mersey - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/13000-merseyside-police-drone-lost-3364040)

Apparently it hit swimmers as 10,000 Scousers claimed they had been hit by the falling drone.

Mind you were it true it would mean that 10,000 Scousers had washed.

funfly
3rd Feb 2015, 12:13
Apparently it hit swimmers as 10,000 Scousers claimed they had been hit by the falling drone.

Not to mention the farmer's prize cows :rolleyes:

rgbrock1
3rd Feb 2015, 13:17
Hey, hey there. My ex is a Scouser. You leave them out of this. :}:E:}

Thomas coupling
3rd Feb 2015, 13:18
Last year 342 'drones' / UAV's were sold to the general public.

I have it on good authority from my contact inside the CAA that they acknowledge a seismic shift in this arena but existing rules already cover their activities. No intention of introducing further legislation UFN.

Return to base.

G-CPTN
22nd Feb 2015, 00:21
Flying Robots Survey Tops of Somerville Buildings | Somerville, MA Patch (http://patch.com/massachusetts/somerville/flying-robots-survey-tops-somerville-buildings-0)

11Fan
22nd Feb 2015, 03:52
These aren't the drones you are looking for.

Sook
25th Feb 2015, 10:46
Last year 342 'drones' / UAV's were sold to the general public.

Do you mean that 342 applications were made to the CAA for commercial operations of UAS, as I can guarantee that more that 342 were sold to the general public!

chevvron
25th Feb 2015, 14:01
They're all radio controlled model aircraft and are subject to the ANO Regulations which have been in force for about 50 years.

G-CPTN
25th Feb 2015, 14:07
More drones hover over Paris; authorities investigate - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/25/europe/france-drones/index.html)

MG23
25th Feb 2015, 14:46
Drones are far too useful and simple to build for government to 'clamp down' on them. In twenty years, most people will have half a dozen following them around all the time to post selfies on Facebook.

I'm thinking of buying one so I can check the roof tiles without having to clamber up a ladder, but the decent ones aren't cheap enough yet for something I'd only use occasionally.

G-CPTN
25th Feb 2015, 15:20
Has nobody started a drone hire business yet?

http://www.skypower.co.uk/?gclid=COedo_Oy_cMCFceWtAodJFMAWQ

http://www.hireuavpro.com/loc/united-kingdom-drone-businesses/

http://www.hireuavpro.com/loc/canada-drone-businesses/

MG23
25th Feb 2015, 17:09
Has nobody started a drone hire business yet?/ (http://www.hireuavpro.com/loc/canada-drone-businesses/)

That's a good point: there might be someone around here who'd rent one.

tony draper
25th Feb 2015, 18:16
If they made them a bit bigger put some seats in them some protection from the weather and some controls so a person could actually direct them up down side to side speed ect whilst sitting aboard em you could do away with this remote radio control,now that would be interesting,but nah they would never find anybody mad enough to do that, sit in and drive a big drone.
:rolleyes:

G-CPTN
25th Feb 2015, 19:32
there might be someone around here who'd rent one.

Here (https://dronehire.org/business/flyterra-canada) and here (http://www.kaspi.ca/aerial-photography-aerial-video-drone-rental-toronto-ontario-l.html).

Jetex_Jim
26th Feb 2015, 03:48
This is an interesting link showing how the cash strapped Ukraine forces are using very capable hobby drone technology for recconaisance.
Ukraine's DIY Drones Go to War - Businessweek (http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-11-20/ukraines-diy-drones-go-to-war)

This is using hardware from companies such as:
3D Robotics - Drone & UAV Technology (http://3drobotics.com/)

In a move of classic barminess the USA has declared this stuff to be Export Restricted, it can't be shipped directly to the Ukraine. But cloned hardware can be freely obtained from such as Hobby King and the software is opensource and can be downloaded by anyone with an internet connection.

This is a move that should have 'grown up' such as aerospace manufacturers such as BAE and Thales shaking in their shoes. Why pay billions for underspected, unreliable kit when you can use cheap chinese hardware and opensource software that you can fix yourself when you need to?

MG23
26th Feb 2015, 05:28
In a move of classic barminess the USA has declared this stuff to be Export Restricted, it can't be shipped directly to the Ukraine. But cloned hardware can be freely obtained from such as Hobby King and the software is opensource and can be downloaded by anyone with an internet connection.

Like I said, they're too useful and too easy to make for governments to control them. Attempting to do so just means your country won't be in the drone business in five years.

For example, I was looking at reviews of a commercial drone recently, and owners were complaining that, since the recent drunken drone pilot crash at the White House, theirs now refuses to fly unless they connect it to the Internet every so often so it can download a list of places it's not allowed to fly. Who's going to buy one and put up with the manufacturer telling them where they're allowed to fly, if they can just make one with open source software and fly wherever they want?

tony draper
26th Feb 2015, 10:08
On the news last night,the French police chased a suspicious one around Paris in Police cars and failed to capture it, they need a good Punt gun.:)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a194/Deaddogbay/Deaddogbay002/A%20Punt%20Gun%20used%20for%20duck%20hunting%20but%20were%20 banned%20because%20they%20depleted%20stocks%20of%20wild%20fo wl_zpsk0ibkcca.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Deaddogbay/media/Deaddogbay002/A%20Punt%20Gun%20used%20for%20duck%20hunting%20but%20were%20 banned%20because%20they%20depleted%20stocks%20of%20wild%20fo wl_zpsk0ibkcca.jpg.html)

wiggy
26th Feb 2015, 10:23
The French media seem to be running weekly drone scare story (nuke plants, Eiffel Tower, etc.), and there's debate about licences, chipping the things...

It seems the Paris police are testing "drone catching drones" which catch the intruder in an under slung net. One main problem seems to be (well, judging from the TV) that once the big drone has caught the little drone in it's net both come crashing down to Earth with some force.... very expensive and you certainly wouldn't want to be a member of the public stood underneath the intercept point.

tony draper
26th Feb 2015, 17:00
Couldn't the airwaves be flooded with the same RF frequencies used to control Drones IE make em uncontrollable? :confused:

Been Accounting
26th Feb 2015, 22:40
I think there is everything here to stop rogue drones without resorting to nets etc.

Autonomous drone hacking
SkyJack - autonomous drone hacking (http://samy.pl/skyjack/)

Drone v Drone
https://vimeo.com/108448978

Jetex_Jim
27th Feb 2015, 05:45
Couldn't the airwaves be flooded with the same RF frequencies used to control Drones IE make em uncontrollable?

Although the drones in the toystores are essentially RC model aircraft as the drone evolutionary scale is climbed they feature more and more autonomy.

The higher end machines can be connected to your laptop running 'Mission Planner' software. Setup a route and upload it to the drone. The drone will then use its onboard GPS and other sensors, (baro alt/airspeed, magnetic compass) to navigate and fly the route without manual intervention.

One new sensor, which does not yet have a counterpart in 'grownup' avionics is the so called, 'Optical flow' sensor. This uses a downwards looking video camera and software to analyse the scene content. It can recognise drift to establish a precise hover, much more accurate than GPS circular error. By adding an altitude multiplier very accurate groundspeed can be calculated.

Flying Binghi
27th Feb 2015, 06:26
via Jetex_Jim:
...The higher end machines can be connected to your laptop running 'Mission Planner' software. Setup a route and upload it to the drone. The drone will then use its onboard GPS and other sensors, (baro alt/airspeed, magnetic compass) to navigate and fly the route without manual intervention.

Not long then until them terrorists start using them i guess.

Jetex_Jim
27th Feb 2015, 14:53
Not long then until them terrorists start using them i guess.

I suppose that depends on what kind of terrorist we are discussing.

If it's suicide attacks and virgins in heaven that floats your boat where's the glory in using a drone? On the other hand, I hope we finally made peace with the IRA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghDXBIy_BSM

G-CPTN
2nd Mar 2015, 22:39
BBC News - 3D mapping the Christ the Redeemer statue (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31649603)

B Fraser
3rd Mar 2015, 07:07
They are no more dangerous than stunt kites. Some kites such as a Cody can weigh substantially more and can be flown to a significant altitude.

Great fun :ok:

VP959
3rd Mar 2015, 08:41
They are no more dangerous than stunt kites. Some kites such as a Cody can weigh substantially more and can be flown to a significant altitude.

Great fun

Except they aren't restricted by bits of string, can be flown outside of line-of-site, can be flown into restricted areas very easily using a "pilot's eye view" visual nav option, are capable of carrying a payload that could be as relatively harmless as a hi-res camera, or as potentially harmful as a few ounces of Semtex or a packet of biological or chemical agent, etc, etc.

Have you seen the videos of the guys who go hunting in the woods with these things? They've adapted off-the-shelf quadcopters to carry a small weapon and then they fly around trees at low level hunting with them.

Around 4 or 5 years ago the technology of the hobby units was such that they were used by the BBC to carry an HD stablised camera to get video of stampeding wildebeeste for a widlife programme, and I remember at the time this caused a few in the defence community to ask why the BBC could do stuff like this when we were struggling to fly very much more expensive drones in Afghanistan. Since then the crude hobby technology the BBC used then has become more sophisticated, far, far more capable and cheaper. i suggest a look around one of the big hobby sites like Hobby King might show just how capable some of these things are.

I suggest that they are potentially a heck of a lot more dangerous than stunt kites, hence the concern being expressed.

B Fraser
3rd Mar 2015, 13:08
I guess you have not seen a Cody kite. They can lift much more than a drone and can loiter for a lot longer. They are also impossible to counter electronically. They can also be flown legally in restricted areas such as Windsor Great Park and I have done so on many occasions.

G-CPTN
3rd Mar 2015, 13:42
Having acquired a taste for stunt kiteing, I decided to build my own 'super' kite.
I used commercial vehicle bundy brake piping for the 'ribs' and builders' membrane for the skin. The completed kite was about ten feet square.
I used spools of braided fishing twine for the lines and built a large diameter (ten inch) twin-spool reel to carry the lines.
In theory, the kite would rise above the legal height limit.

Its first outing was on a day with a stiff breeze and I had no difficulty getting it aloft - though it was a strain to keep my footing.

I soon acquired a significantly-sized audience of onlookers (on the local village playing field), and I was getting the hang of controlling the kite when it took a dive and buried itself six inches into the turf.

I decided that the probability of injuring (or even killing) any of the onlookers (or seriously damaging a car in the carpark) was too likely, and I never flew it again.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Mar 2015, 14:07
I decided that the probability of injuring (or even killing) any of the onlookers (or seriously damaging a car in the carpark) was too likely, and I never flew it again.
What Sir wants is a deserted Welsh beach in January. Last time I was with a group of people flying silly kites in such a place we attracted exactly no audience at all, and the crashes into the sand or sea were completely harmless.

Thomas coupling
3rd Mar 2015, 16:11
God - stop droning on you lot :ouch:
Over 500 now sold last year alone (Under 7KG). CAA treats them as radio controlled a/c and existing rules cover them. If used for commercial purposes ALL users have to do a 2-3 day course with a private contractor approved by the CAA where they MUST pass a final practical and theroy exam and pay around 1500-2000 for the privilige.
Rules: Must remain in site of operator and out to a max of 500m.
Must stay away from congested places or people/vehicles/structures/vessels by 150m
Can't be flown above 400 feet.
Can't be flown over anyone where there is a risk of it crashing into them should the craft fail.

The CAA are reactive, therefore they will not tighten the screw until and unless one of these packed with 1lb of semtex is flown deliberately into the path of a Airbus 380 landing at heathrow.
Mind you, this can already be done with radio controlled a/c. :\

VP959
3rd Mar 2015, 19:44
The CAA are reactive, therefore they will not tighten the screw until and unless one of these packed with 1lb of semtex is flown deliberately into the path of a Airbus 380 landing at heathrow.
Mind you, this can already be done with radio controlled a/c.

I don't think it's the CAA who will be involved. A US acquaintance has been flying a quadcopter bought off-the-shelf from China (via the web) for a while now. He can easily fly it beyond visual line-of-sight, and through open windows. It will carry around 300 to 400g of payload and still fly well for 30 minutes or so.

He doesn't need to be able to see it at all, as he flies it using a pair of VR goggles to give a pilot's eye view, so as long as the radio links keep working he can both control it and see where he's flying.

He's not a friend by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know that he's been selling videos and photos that have been taken "paparrazi style", including the obvious ones of naked women. The guy's like a 45 year old kid with this thing, and makes a point of going out snooping around with it to see what he can see.

All pretty harmless, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to realise that you could use one of these to cause a lot of harm.

There's no comparison with kites, as these things can be launched from a narrow alley in a street, flown vertically and then beyond line-of-sight for around 1/2 mile or more and can be used for pretty much anything that your imagination can dream up.

Sure the heavier ones are technically unlawful to fly here in the UK without training, but you can buy them, no questions asked, via the web. It's obvious that many are designed as paparazzi devices, from the kit they come with as standard, and there are no import controls are they are being sold as toys.

The day will come, within the next year or two, where there is an assassination or terrorist attack using these things. They are just about the ideal device for such an attack and unless there is intelligence suggesting the location where such an attack might take place they are near impossible to counter.

Somehow I really can't see a kite, of any type, posing such a comparatively hidden and manoeuvrable threat.

B Fraser
3rd Mar 2015, 21:59
A mate and I flew a square ram air canopy as a stunt kite. It took a lot of shouting and straining with each of us hauling on one line each but we did manage to loop it.

Nice one !

VP959
3rd Mar 2015, 22:27
A mate and I flew a square ram air canopy as a stunt kite. It took a lot of shouting and straining with each of us hauling on one line each but we did manage to loop it.

Nice one !

I'm not disputing this at all, but could you have flown it through a small open window, across a room, down a corridor, through an open door and into a room full of people, having launched it from a narrow alley way a few hundred metres away?

Or, coud you have launched it in the middle of a dense forest and flown it around a bunch of trees at low level?

This is the very big diference between kites (which are great things to pay with, take aerial photos from etc) and the current generation of hobby quadcopters that can easily be flown beyond visual line-of-sight, through narrow openings, and into relatively private/secure areas.

B Fraser
3rd Mar 2015, 22:33
No, but we could have demolished a small garden shed.

Now do that with a toy helicopter !

VP959
3rd Mar 2015, 22:42
No, but we could have demolished a small garden shed.

Now do that with a toy helicopter !

Easy. An off-the-shelf cheapo quadcopter can swap the HD video camera payload for around 200 to 500g of Semtex, more than capable of destroying far more than a garden shed.

What's more it could have been flown in from a beyond-line-of-sight locaation some distance away, even at night, and unless there was some intelligence warning of such an attack (so that that local jamming could be used as a preventative measure) then it would have had a very high chance of achieving it's objective.

B Fraser
4th Mar 2015, 07:12
Or you could post it.

Thomas coupling
5th Mar 2015, 13:28
When did kites come into this debate???? I didn't mention them VP959, did I?

Going back to drones - yes you are right, the CAA are sitting fat dumb and happy doing absolutely nothing about this generational leap in technology and access, only to find that they will wake up one day and find a major national disaster on their doorstep as a consequence of a drone wreaking havoc somewhere.

I'm struggling to understand how this 'mates' drone can be flown locally on VR??? What height are we talking about and how does VR prevent the drone from CFIT?

MG23
5th Mar 2015, 13:44
Going back to drones - yes you are right, the CAA are sitting fat dumb and happy doing absolutely nothing about this generational leap in technology and access, only to find that they will wake up one day and find a major national disaster on their doorstep as a consequence of a drone wreaking havoc somewhere.

At best, the CAA can only restrict sane people's use of drones, and sane people aren't much of a problem. Those who want to see what happens when they crash a drone into an airliner will just build one themselves, or import one from China, so regulations won't affect them.

VP959
5th Mar 2015, 13:44
I didn't mention kites, that was another poster.

VR or pilot's-eye-view, flight is dead easy and off the shelf. These things have a video downlink that is fed to a pair of VR goggles, allowing the pilot to fly beyond line of site and into restricted spaces.

The bigger hobby shops sell these things ready to go, complete with goggles and downlink receiver.

There are hundreds of videos on the web showing drones flown this way, and some very busy hobby forums dedicated to this type of flying.

G-CPTN
5th Mar 2015, 14:07
Some talking head on the Beeb earlier today called for registration of owners.

BBC News - Drone owners register called for by House of Lords (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31735662)

The committee's report warned that over-regulation risked stifling the drone industry, estimating that it could be responsible for creating as many as 150,000 jobs across Europe by 2050.

MG23
5th Mar 2015, 18:07
Some talking head on the Beeb earlier today called for registration of owners.

The bad guys will definitely be lining up to register their drones. While there's probably a small amount to be gained by restricting those who buy drones built by European companies (e.g. the ones who didn't even think that flying one near an airport might be a really bad idea), it will have little to no impact on those who pose the greatest risk to others.

VP959
5th Mar 2015, 19:27
When you can go and buy something like this: Quanum Venture FPV Deluxe Quad-Copter Set With DJI, FatShark, Multistar and Afro Components (PNF) (http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__55569__Quanum_Venture_FPV_Deluxe_Quad_Copter_Set_With_DJI_ FatShark_Multistar_and_Afro_Components_PNF_.html) , which is FPV controlled (First Person View, an acronym for pilot's-eye-view beyond line of sight), then any CAA rules go out the window.

Watch the short video and you can see brief shots of the "pilot" wearing VR goggles to get the pilot's-eye-view from the video downlink.

There are loads more that are as readily available and far more capable.

EGLD
5th Mar 2015, 20:06
No, but we could have demolished a small garden shed.

Now do that with a toy helicopter !

We get it - you like kites.

re: that video of the quadcopter flying around London, why didn't one of those people grab the frickin' thing and smash it against a wall?

They're a menace, an invasion of privacy, and downright lethal in the wrong hands.

Things will get worse for a bit yet, and the units will get cheaper, but I feel sure some countries will begin to strictly regulate their sale

Jetex_Jim
6th Mar 2015, 04:43
Anyone wondering about the feasibility of bringing down aircraft with drones might do well to watch this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ErEBkj_3PY
Which looks at drone autonomy and drone swarming, the latter being probably a more feasible method of downing an airliner than putting a single drone equpiped with semtex in it's flight path.

However, probably the best way to stop worrying about drones is to worry about something else. This article, How to Get a Nuclear Bomb - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2006/12/how-to-get-a-nuclear-bomb/305402/) ought to take the collective pprune mind off drones.

innuendo
6th Mar 2015, 07:31
A gent I know here on the East Coast of Vancouver Island is trying to photograph the Herring spawn and fishery with a Phantom drone and one of his biggest problems is Bald Eagles having a go at the drone.
They don't seem to like the machine. Obviously he does not want it to end up in the drink.
His best evasive action is to go in to a max rate vertical climb. Seems they have a hard time following that.

G-CPTN
18th Mar 2015, 02:18
America LOSES 9m Reaper drone in Syria | World | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/564690/US-Syria-Reaper-drone-UAV)

MatrixMan
18th Mar 2015, 03:02
Similar article here from NATS

Lords urge civilian drones database | NATS Blog (http://nats.aero/blog/2015/03/lords-urge-civilian-drones-database/)

Sallyann1234
18th Mar 2015, 11:03
What use would a drone user database be?

There's a passport user database, but it didn't stop three kids from travelling to Syria. And one of them was using another user's passport.

VP959
18th Mar 2015, 11:18
I think it just illustrates the absolutely massive gulf of understanding between the government and the reality seen by large parts of the population.

Anyone into aeromodelling has probably heard of, and bought from, Hobby King in China. They export vast amounts of stuff, including kits and ready to fly quadcopter drones, with all the kit.

Import controls are pretty much non-existent, at a guess 99% of the model stuff coming in from the far east has either no, or just the very barest checks.

Quite how the government think they are going to hold a register of all these things is beyond me, they can't even control the vast volumes of unsafe tat that's being imported via the same sort of channels.

If you want an example, most here understand the limitations and bans on posting lithium batteries. Having done so for an electric motorcycle, I can say that Hobby King will happily air fright dozens of high capacity ones in a tatty cardboard box, with no hazard paperwork and with them declared as "toys".

Flying Binghi
18th Mar 2015, 12:07
via VP959:
...Import controls are pretty much non-existent...

If the Drone has a bit of range yer'd just fly it over the border any way..:hmm:










.