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Bella246
28th Jan 2015, 19:01
6 Aug 2014 EZY7078 Bordeaux to Liverpool. The flight was delayed by just over 3 hrs. We noted the time we came to a stop on the Apron where the plane was parked and the time the aircraft door was opened when we were still on board. We have been trying to get hold of someone or some thing to verify our times especially the door opening time which we understand is the definition of Arrival Time for delayed claim purposes. Easyjet just keep referring to the Arrival Time but will not state at what point that is for their calculations. Does anyone know if Easyjet actually have an automated system for recording their door opening time or whether they were or are logging this manually or can anyone reading this confirm the Door Opening time for the above flight. Many thanks in advance.

DaveReidUK
28th Jan 2015, 21:54
Are you saying that there was a noticeable delay between arriving on stand and the door(s) being opened? How long?

Bella246
28th Jan 2015, 23:07
It was enough to put us over the 3 hour mark.

S.o.S.
29th Jan 2015, 01:01
Hello Bella246 and welcome to the forum. You are asking a very specific question, the answer to which will probably be seen as commercially sensitive by the carrier in question. Accordingly, you cannot expect a member of their staff to breach their terms of employment and tell you. You might receive a Private Message (PM) but do not be surprised if no answer arrives.

You will see that there is a detailed thread running in the forum about this topic: http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/555016-ec-261-2004-wear-tear-extraordinary-circumstances.html and that will indicate how complex a subject this is.

I hope you stay and join in other conversations.

ExXB
29th Jan 2015, 07:01
If you believe you are entitled to compensation, make your claim to the airline.

There is no good reason why front-line airline / ground handling / reservations / office staff would have easy access to the operations systems where this information might be available. There is likely very good reasons why they don't. The people in the claims areas will be able to access this information.

It may be helpful if you can show the airline that you actually suffered a loss or damage from your delay. While I appreciate that the regulation and/or court rulings don't require you to show a loss, or damage, seeking compensation just because you can makes the tickets for the rest of us more expensive*. (But that subject is for another thread)

*It is International curmudgeon day, I'm just having a moan.

DaveReidUK
29th Jan 2015, 07:02
It was enough to put us over the 3 hour mark.Then go ahead and make your claim based on the timings you have recorded. It will be up to EasyJet to prove that you are wrong.

Easyjet just keep referring to the Arrival Time but will not state at what point that is for their calculationsIt's likely that, for the purpose of punctuality reporting, EasyJet (like pretty well every other airline) use the time of arrival at the gate/stand. If there is a long delay before the doors open (for example waiting for steps on an off-pier stand), then that may not be documented, particularly if it hasn't affected the punctuality of the subsequent departure. Having said that, some aircraft send an automated (ACARS) message reporting "doors open/closed" - that may or may not include EasyJet's A319/A320s.

But there is certainly case law showing that, for the purpose of EU 261, "arrival time" is when the doors open:

"Articles 2, 5 and 7 of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91, must be interpreted as meaning that the concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the delay to which passengers on a flight have been subject, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft is opened, the assumption being that, at that moment, the passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft."

CURIA - Documents (http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=157348&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=275867)

Exascot
29th Jan 2015, 07:38
Dave Sure that does seem to be the official position. However on a number of occasions I have had passengers delayed departing the aircraft due to no steps or the air-bridge malfunctioning. I suppose the argument could be that they could have jumped :E

When I was Royal and VIP flying we were aiming for doors open times.

Nightstop
29th Jan 2015, 08:29
The cabin doors are not opened until steps or airbridge are in place and a signal received from outside that it is safe for the cabin crew to open the door. The time at which each cabin door is opened is sent automatically via ACARS.

DaveReidUK
29th Jan 2015, 09:27
The time at which each cabin door is opened is sent automatically via ACARS.Are you sure about that ?

My understanding is that there is a single "doors closed" or "doors open" ACARS message, corresponding to the final door being closed or the first one being opened, respectively.

And I have no idea whether EZY aircraft send that message at all, not all aircraft do.

crispey
29th Jan 2015, 09:50
Good morning "nightstop"


That's not my understanding from various professionals I have spoken to.It's the brakes which send the signal.In view of the recent case law perhaps the doors opening should be logged automatically.I'm sure many SLF will have had to wait for quite long periods before the doors are opened.I recall 30 minutes once at LAX.

INeedTheFull90
29th Jan 2015, 10:06
I was under the impression that radical time was the on chock time. Parking brake set on and last engine switched off. The airline would have done all it could have to minimise the delay to your arrival but what happens on the ground is often out of their control.

I can't imagine anyone in here giving you the information for you to claim compensation from their employer and pushing up ticket prices for everyone.

Bella246
29th Jan 2015, 10:44
Thank you all for your very prompt replies. I quite understand the sensitive nature of my question and why some might wish not to respond - my apologies.
I came across the following post (albeit 8 years old) on another Forum which was signed: 'My career experience as an airline pilot with an ACARS'. I wonder if anyone could confirm whether or not the main cabin door opening simply transmits the parking brake time (in time) not the door opening time or have their been changes to the ACARS whereby the Door Opening time is now signalled. Thanks.


‘The OFFICIAL times are generated by computer when certain things occur on the aircraft. Almost every airliner large and small these days is equipped with an Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (or ACARS) . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS
This computer transmits the "out", "off", "on" and "in" times for the flight. The "out" time starts when the captain drops the parking brake with the main cabin door closed. The "in" time is recorded as the last time the parking brake was applied. The main cabin door opening sends a signal that transmits the "in" time. Unless the captain reset the brake while waiting for the door to be opened, that time is what is recorded

wiggy
29th Jan 2015, 11:05
FWIW this might be airline/aircraft specific but where I work "in" is logged as the last time of parking brake application prior to any door being opened.

So e.g. taxi on to gate and apply park brake at 1200, first door to open is a cargo door(s) at 1220...the "In" time will be logged/transmited as 1200. Our ACARs configuration does record and transmit the all doors closed time on departure, but dependent on type it may not record/display/transmit doors open time - but it does use that event to latch the "in" time.

Bella246
29th Jan 2015, 11:12
Sorry - one more question.
Is it possible to land, taxi, park on the apron and have everything in place (steps/buses) and open cabin door in 4 mins?

crispey
29th Jan 2015, 11:16
To "Wiggy" and "I needTheFull90" the recent court case as mentioned by Dave Reid clears up the legal position.(Unless that is appealed of course)Arrival time is when you can get off the aircraft.Not when you park up.


I don't know how it works in practice but would the airline have alerted the ground handling staff as to the timing issues?i.e.we've got one coming in close to the 3 hour delay mark so can you be there to make sure we make it?

DaveReidUK
29th Jan 2015, 11:34
That's not my understanding from various professionals I have spoken to. It's the brakes which send the signal. In view of the recent case law perhaps the doors opening should be logged automatically.You will find that the more professionals you speak to, the more variations you will find in the way that different airlines configure ACARS messages, including automatic logging of doors open/closed.

For example I'm looking at a series of messages sent from a BA T5 arrival from GVA:

ONN 01 1444 EGLL (touchdown - weight on squat switches)
INN 01 1452 EGLL (arrival at gate, parking brake on)
DRO 01 1456 ---- 15010 (doors open, not sure what the final digits mean)

Aircraft was on a remote stand (524) hence presumably the 4-minute delay between the INN and the DRO, awaiting steps.

Similarly, BA Airbuses send separate DRC (doors closed) and OUT (departure from gate) messages.

crispey
29th Jan 2015, 12:56
Dave,Not withstanding BA's operations it would seem EZY's A320s do not record this as I assume they would have told the OP when the claim was made,Assuming a formal claim been made .Do we know?




The airline business is highly complex as are many other big businesses and there is a tendency to dispute claims as many are false and a try on.But as an example a friend was returning to UK from the West Indies last year to be told there wasn't enough fuel to get them back home.Hotels were laid on eventually but when a claim for the standard EU compensation was lodged they were told the delay(24 hours)was due to circumstances outside the control of the airline and rejected out of hand.Yet a very quick trawl of the net produced evidence that other UK registered aircraft were leaving that island that night.It took some discussion to get the airline to pay up but it did require solid evidence to achieve it.

wiggy
29th Jan 2015, 13:10
Is it possible to land, taxi, park on the apron and have everything in place (steps/buses) and open cabin door in 4 mins?

That depends on the where and when.

You're unlikely to get all the above done in 4 mins but I know of at least one airport where, in the right circumstances, you can land ( The "ON" event) and be parked up (the "IN"event ) in less than 4 minutes so I guess getting a door as well is not completely out of the question...

DaveReidUK
29th Jan 2015, 13:18
it would seem EZY's A320s do not record this

You could be right, I did indeed refer to that possibility:

some aircraft send an automated (ACARS) message reporting "doors open/closed" - that may or may not include EasyJet's A319/A320s

I have no idea whether EZY aircraft send that message at all, not all aircraft do

Having said that, EasyJet's response shouldn't necessarily be taken at face value, it wouldn't be the first time an airline has been initially disingenuous when dealing with a compensation claim. They haven't actually denied that they record the "doors open" times:

as I assume they would have told the OP when the claim was made

Easyjet just keep referring to the Arrival Time but will not state at what point that is for their calculations

Bella246
29th Jan 2015, 14:14
Thank you very much everyone for kindly taking time to reply.
Very much appreciated.