Flying school jobs?

[ILS27R]

Much has been stated about airline jobs or the lack of them in the following months or even years to come. Although not much has been said about flying school jobs.

How easy will it in future to be able to get a flying school job as a FI with only 200 hours ish?? Will the market become so saturated with 5000 hour guys that newbies will not even get a look in. Would the wages satisfy a former airline pilot anyway?

Would I still stand a chance of getting a FI job if I were to work for nothing?

[clear prop!!!]

Well, your 5000 hr guy is going to have to do the same course as you, and cough up the same £4 to £5k in order to earn just £10k pa on average.

Now, I would doubt that too many will take that option in order to pay (or not pay) the mortgage while they wait for things to get better. However no doubt WWW will give us a gloomy rebuttal on that idea and give you a dozen reasons why you haven't a hope in hell!

It's a bad time of year to be looking for an instructors job, and most instructors are now going to be there for a while longer than was perhaps planned.

Go for it, but please don't degrade the profession by offering to work for nothing. Things are bad enough without that as well!

Good luck

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

clear prop - I've really annoyed you haven't I?!?

I have it from the horses mouth that next years FI pay will be pitched lower at a medium size flying school of my aquaintance. We are entering the always quiet winter months and so by the time next Spring comes around all the people graduating with CPL/IR's lately will have had six months to apply for jobs, get nowhere and then do an FI rating with their remaining savings/credit.

In my experience about half those self sponsoring say that "I'll give it 6 months and if nothing then I'll do my FI rating". I imagine just about all those graduates won't get jobs in the 6 months coming so you'll be facing about 200 extra flying instructor ratings than normal next Spring.

Certainly thats the view of 2 flying instructor ratings examiner friends of mine.

With around 70 small flying schools in the UK thats 3 EXTRA FI's than normal per school. Which is an increase in available employees to employers of about 100% above normal.

Supply and demand dictates a steep drop in salaries.

Mind you a lot depends on the actual actions rather than the voiced intentions of those graduating with CPL/IRs from integrated courses - I suspect some will take a course of lower resistance and go back to previous employers/professions for a while.

Cheers and good luck,

WWW

[G_STRING]

WWW

Personally, I too am aiming to become an instructor, BUT the difference is, I would like to be a 'professional' one. In other words, I have NO desire at all to fly as a commercial pilot, just instruct as a permanent career.

Now, you may all think I'm 2 beers short of a 6 pack, but this is something I've always wanted to do.

I'm currently an I.T. systems trainer, so have <some> idea of what I could be letting myself in for!!

How would you rate my chances in the future?
Also, how do you get it across to a prospective employer that you are not, and never will be, an airline hours builder, but want a job on a permanent basis???

Any ideas welcomed!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I can certainly try to help you along the way if you can persuade me of your sincerity - I've heard this line before many many times, often from people who a few months later were happily joining the airlines...

Before you can even start to get serious you will need CPL/IR Frzn ATPL 1000hrs TT and 500 instructional hours on an unrestricted FI rating. 1,000 instructional hours will most probably be necessary in the now depressed market.

Don't bother with your own IRI ticket no Multi Instructor ticket.

Cheers,

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

ps Where in Wales? We might be neighbours soon...

WWW

[Delta Wun-Wun]

WWW,
Excuse my ignorance,but what is the difference between a FI(R) and a FI?

[G_STRING]

WWW - Deadly serious, (only I've got a long way to go, after reading your post), but HOW do I convince you??...

By the way, North Wales, Wrexham area to be precise.

Cheers

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

STRING - Wrexham eh? Only 50 mins up the road from my home town. I've doen plenty of flying out of Hawarden, Ternhill, Shawbury, Cosford et al. You might well want to speak to my old boss Tony from Oswestry who is very well placed to give you 1,000hrs a year...

The difference between FI and FI(r) is the ability to send first solos and first solo navs.

WWW

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Thanks Mate. :)

[clear prop!!!]

Quite right WWW.

You make sure that G-String convinces you good and proper before you let him into the secret of how to become a commercial instructor and how to convince FTO’s that he is serious.

I mean, it’s bloody unfair how some unscrupulous instructors dupe poor old FTO’s into believing they are serious about instructing for more than a couple of months.

For instance. I heard a story about this guy…Welsh bloke I believe. Talked his way in to a prime instructors job with a Commercial FTO somewhere in Spain, the sort of job that genuine career instructors would have given their eye teeth for. THEN… would-you- believe…within a couple of months he was up and off to the Airlines, like a rat up a drain pipe...or maybe it was a weasle up a drain pipie , I can't remember.
That’s just the sort of thing that in your position you are quite right to try and ensure doesn’t happen!! So you just hold back on your sage-like knowledge until this upstart convinces you. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/awink.gif

Seriously G-sting you are right. Most clubs and FTO’s do get a bit pissed off when instructors say they are there for the long term and clearly aren’t.

If you are totally serious about instructing for a living and feel the need to show that that was the case. Then CPL theory exams as opposed to ATPL would prove that. Sadly you still can’t do them at the moment so that isn’t an option.

Also hold back on your MIR. You don’t need it to teach up to CPL and Instructor ratings. Now employers know that a CPL without an IR is useless to Airlines, so you are a safe bet without it. In addition you will save a fortune and not have to keep current. However, I would imagine that the major commercial FTO's would require an IR. But you could start with a smaller op and build up instructor ratings, which would prove your intentions.

Instructing beyond PPL can pay pretty well. But you’ll need to get 500hrs of instruction time in on the breadline before you can look at any form of commercial instruction on a living wage.

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]

[laurie]

Thanks for that Clear Prop,

I decided quite a while ago I would not be going for MEIR for the same reasons you outlined.

Something I had been wondering was - can you just do CPL exams instead of ATPLs to go on for instructing. Are you saying it needs to be ATPL's?

I would really like to end up teaching aerobatics since they are such good fun, and quite a challenge to get right - what is the demand like for this type of instruction?

Thanks,
Laurie.

[clear prop!!!]

Laurie.

No, it doesn't need to be ATPL's to instruct. It's just that to date, there are no CPL courses...so you can't do them. Daft isn't it!

However, I would imagine (but I'm not sure), that schools teaching integrated would require you to have a CPL/IR with ATPL theory exams.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Glad you agree.

You make sure that G-String convinces you good and proper before you let him into the secret of how to become a commercial instructor and how to convince FTO’s that he is serious.

Well I'm not about to spend time and energy on someone who is actually only half hearted.

I mean, it’s bloody unfair how some unscrupulous instructors dupe poor old FTO’s into believing they are serious about instructing for more than a couple of months.

Or indeed the other way around when FTO's promise you'll be flying twins an teaching IMC's in 6 months when you won't.

For instance. I heard a story about this guy…Welsh bloke I believe. Talked his way in to a prime instructors job with a Commercial FTO somewhere in Spain, the sort of job that genuine career instructors would have given their eye teeth for. THEN… would-you- believe…within a couple of months he was up and off to the Airlines, like a rat up a drain pipe...or maybe it was a weasle up a drain pipie , I can't remember.

Yeah well that would be hypocrisy on his part IF he had EVER even HINTED that he might consider a career instructing. I recall in my job interview up in Prestwick that I spent a considerable time running through the rules of the training bond as I voiced my opinion that in 12 months time I might be able to skip the regional TP job and take a pot shot at getting sraight into a jet airline.

That’s just the sort of thing that in your position you are quite right to try and ensure doesn’t happen!! So you just hold back on your sage-like knowledge until this upstart convinces you.

No its no skin off my nose. I just am voicing a weary voice of scepticism about 'career instructing' as I hear it all the time but have never ever seen it happen myself. My sage like knowledge is limited but I do have some useful contacts.

Seriously G-sting you are right. Most clubs and FTO’s do get a bit pissed off when instructors say they are there for the long term and clearly aren’t.

If you are totally serious about instructing for a living and feel the need to show that that was the case. Then CPL theory exams as opposed to ATPL would prove that. Sadly you still can’t do them at the moment so that isn’t an option.

You'd be mad to do that. Its 95% of the ATPL work anyway and IF in 10 years someone is begging you to go fly their GulfstreamV for them you can't.


Also hold back on your MIR. You don’t need it to teach up to CPL and Instructor ratings. Now employers know that a CPL without an IR is useless to Airlines, so you are a safe bet without it. In addition you will save a fortune and not have to keep current. However, I would imagine that the major commercial FTO's would require an IR. But you could start with a smaller op and build up instructor ratings, which would prove your intentions.

Major FTO's require you to hold an IR but they also pay for the renewal. Well the non-shoddy ones do. I Beleive OATS limited that to single engine unless you were teaching on the multis - which was a bit of a cheek.

Instructing beyond PPL can pay pretty well. But you’ll need to get 500hrs of instruction time in on the breadline before you can look at any form of commercial instruction on a living wage.

Yep.

Clear prop! Who do you work for again - I've forgotten if I ever knew...?

Cheers,

WWW

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

[G_STRING]

WWW & Clear Prop

Well - that's telling me!! (what an upstart I am: only joking!)

I AM serious about this, I've seen commercial aviation from various levels, and have no aspirations whatsoever to join it, and ruin the fun flying should be. I also consider myself too old, (even if I WAS interested, but I'm not).

However, I have got an awful long way to go, so when I get the cash, I'm going to try and get on with it.

Thanks for your posts - v. interesting!

ps Why so sure I'm a 'he'?

WWW - where in Wales did you actually live, you've got me a-wondering!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

SY21 7PS.

WWW

[laurie]

WWW,

Any idea of the market out there for Aerobatics instructors?

Thanks,
Laurie.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Very limited. You need a reputation to do it independtly and an expensive investment up front. Larger FTO's or specialists will not be impressed with the standard AOPA Aero instructor ticket. It'll cost you a packet to build enough Aeros hours yuorself to get proficient enough.

All in all a bit of a non-starter for you in your current position.

WWW