PDA

View Full Version : Today is the UK Holocaust Memorial Day - WHY ??


G&T ice n slice
27th Jan 2015, 14:14
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_Memorial_Day_(UK)

why ??

I am totally baffled by this.

How many did the British send on a final journey during the 1930's up to 1945?

How many of our own British people were sent unwillingly to the camps?

BillHicksRules
27th Jan 2015, 14:16
If you read the link you posted it explains why.

Sop_Monkey
27th Jan 2015, 14:39
Another question, if I may? Where T.F., is the German delegation? They did play their part I believe, not in the liberation though.

Hempy
27th Jan 2015, 14:40
The chosen date is the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz concentration camp by the Soviet Union in 1945, the date also chosen for the International Holocaust Remembrance Day and some other national Holocaust Memorial Days.

I think the OP is suggesting that because Britain didn't send Jews to the gas chambers there is no need for a British Holocaust Rememberance Day.

Fareastdriver
27th Jan 2015, 14:44
Had it not been for the events in Paris it would not have got the media attention that it has.

airship
27th Jan 2015, 15:33
Some clarification:

Holocaust Memorial Day (UK) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_Memorial_Day_(UK)) "...is a national commemoration day in the United Kingdom dedicated to the remembrance of those who suffered in The Holocaust, under Nazi Persecution, and in subsequent genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur. It was first held in January 2001 and has been on the same date every year since." Ie. on 27/01 every year.

International Holocaust Remembrance Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Holocaust_Remembrance_Day) "...commemorates the genocide that resulted in the death of an estimated 6 million Jews, 1 million Gypsies, 250,000 mentally and physically disabled people, and 9,000 homosexual men by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." Ie. on 27/01 every year.

Yom HaShoah (יום השואה) and in English as Holocaust Remembrance Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah) "...is observed as Israel's day of commemoration for the approximately six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust as a result of the actions carried out by Nazi Germany and its accessories, and for the Jewish resistance in that period...It is held on the 27th of Nisan (April/May), unless the 27th would be adjacent to Shabbat, in which case the date is shifted by a day." In 2015, it will be observed on 16/04.

How many did the British send on a final journey during the 1930's up to 1945?

How many of our own British people were sent unwillingly to the camps?

I've a fair idea of the answer to your 1st question, but do you include under "British" all the colonials from the wider British empire who also served? As to the 2nd, well, I'd find it hard to believe that anyone went to the camps willingly...?! Do we British not commemorate our own sacrifices sufficiently?

Why shouldn't those who wish to observe this day be a problem to you?
Do you feel it's all somehow being shoved down your throat?
What's your agenda?
Are you really "totally baffled" as you so innocently claim?
What's your agenda?
Don't deny it! :\

OFSO
27th Jan 2015, 15:38
Where T.F., is the German delegation?

Why, do you expect them to acknowledge it ? When I had stepchildren in Germany in the late 1980's there was no mention of it in the school history lessons and unlike the older generation I knew (who had genuine regrets and sorrows for the holocaust) the children had never heard of it.

oldchina
27th Jan 2015, 15:39
And the British 11th Armoured Division did liberate Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.
How many more reasons do we need?
Lest We Forget.

OFSO: the many Germans I worked with were impressive in their recognition of
the facts and their willingness to talk about the war. Hitler impressions included.

rgbrock1
27th Jan 2015, 15:40
20 million Russians were killed during WWII. Where is the remembrance day for them?

I feel very badly for the 6 million+ Jews who were killed during the war. What happened to them, and especially the ones who were in the concentration camps, was a horror for all ages.

They were not, however, the only ones.

Limeygal
27th Jan 2015, 15:43
Some British squadies ended up in concentration camps. Saw a program about it once. Can't remember now which camp it was, but they were there.

Hempy
27th Jan 2015, 15:43
I'm sure if some Russian survivors decided to hold a Memorial Day in Britain no one would complain...

Metro man
27th Jan 2015, 15:45
Today is the UK Holocaust Memorial Day - WHY

Jewish influence creating sympathy for Israel is the simple answer. The Armenians suffered under the Turks, Australian Aboriginies under British settlers, Africans under Arab slave traders, it goes on and on.

There aren't enough days in the year to have one for every group that has suffered under another. Israel has an efficient propoganda machine and backers in influential positions throughout the world, so they get one.

sitigeltfel
27th Jan 2015, 15:49
Had it not been for the events in Paris it would not have got the media attention that it has.

You really think so? :rolleyes:

‘Eichmann refused to do penance and longed for applause. But first and foremost, of course, he hoped his “Arab friends” would continue his battle against the Jews who were always the “principal war criminals” and “principal aggressors.”
He hadn’t managed to complete his task of “total annihilation,” but the Muslims could still complete it for him.’As if they needed any encouragement...

Adolf Eichmann hoped his 'Arab friends' would continue his battle against the Jews » Spectator Blogs (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/adolf-eichmann-hoped-his-arab-friends-would-continue-his-battle-against-the-jews/)

Blacksheep
27th Jan 2015, 15:51
As a 93 year old holocaust survivor put it at the week-end - we must regularly remind ourselves that a civilised, honourable and cultured nation did such a thing, and wonder how that could be.

In this 21st century, we are a civilised, honourable and cultured society too, so how can we say we are incapable of such things if put in a similar situation?

Today, we have a large minority of non-Europeans living in Europe who, through the actions of a section of that minority group, are being increasingly reviled and isolated. At the same time, there is economic turmoil in parts of the EU. The seeds are there, we must make sure they never germinate.

rgbrock1
27th Jan 2015, 15:53
Blacksheep wrote:

Today, we have a minority living in European countires Europeans who, through the actions of a section of that minority group, are being increasingly reviled and isolated.

The difference being, Blacksheep: the Jews during the 30's and 40's wished no harm on others. Radical Islam? A whole different ballgame.

Blacksheep
27th Jan 2015, 16:01
This is true, Brockie. But the majority of Muslims wish nobody any harm too. The Nazi phoilosophy initially painted the Jews as the cause of Germany's economic tribulations and therefore to be reviled and eliminated. The danger lies in the seeds of discontent.

Tankertrashnav
27th Jan 2015, 16:05
Anyone who saw Freddie Knoller sitting in the living room of his flat in London, where he has lived for over 60 years would not need to ask the question posed by G &T. He is just one of many thousands who survived the camps who came here to live after the war, and they are now part of our story as well.

Holocaust Educational Trust | The Holocaust | Survivor Stories (http://www.het.org.uk/index.php/survivors-fk)

He told his story to the cameras in a frank and straightforward manner, even managing to introduce some humour into his story, although there was little enough to laugh at. A riveting programme - if you missed it I would strongly recommend a look on BBC i player

BBC Two - Surviving the Holocaust - Freddie Knoller's War (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b050cvdd)

Sop_Monkey
27th Jan 2015, 16:29
OFSO

Correct there is a lot of (selective) amnesia on the continent since WW2.

I once worked with an ex German Storm trooper, iron cross. He confided to me the whole holocaust thing "was a deliberate fabrication by the US and UK to discredit us!" I believe he went to his grave with that attitude.

SpringHeeledJack
27th Jan 2015, 16:51
I once worked with an ex German Storm trooper, iron cross. He confided to me the whole holocaust thing "was a deliberate fabrication by the US and UK to discredit us!" I believe he went to his grave with that attitude.

There were/are those in Germany who had that view, that it didn't happen, others who knew of it at the time in hushed whispers and yet more that were oblivious to the fact because the extermination program was kept low key, hiding in plain sight as it were. I've been to a couple of camps, one in Germany, one in Austria, both low key compared to the most infamous. They exist and existed, however there is dispute as to how many victims there were. There are seemingly credible arguments to show that the 6 million might not be totally accurate, but when millions perished such arguments seem spurious to my mind. I've met a good few survivors over the years and they were all characters and seemed to have flourished, which is heartening. For them, I support a remembrance day, but feel uncomfortable when the media turn it into a several day somewhat forced event. We should not forget the atrocities of the past, this is but one of many, but I fear that it is for nought, for within our psyche lie the seeds and we will to do the same again, perhaps in a different way, but the same again. :(



SHJ

charliegolf
27th Jan 2015, 16:52
OC...

Hitler impressions included.

This pinged a memory. Never went to Landsberg in the 80s perchance?

CG

Tankertrashnav
27th Jan 2015, 17:20
but I fear that it is for nought, for within our psyche lie the seeds and we will to do the same again, perhaps in a different way, but the same again.

Absolutely.

P6 Driver
27th Jan 2015, 17:36
rgbrock1wrote;


"20 million Russians were killed during WWII. Where is the remembrance day for them?"


A quick Google search seems to indicate that 9th May seems popular with many Eastern types.

Krystal n chips
27th Jan 2015, 18:14
The Guardian view on the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz | Editorial | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/guardian-view-70th-anniversary-of-liberation-of-auschwitz)

For anybody who missed it, C4 showed a documentary last Saturday about the making of another documentary entitled "German Concentration Camps" which was never shown as it was deemed too harrowing by the great and the good, who always know what's best for the population after all, to be shown.

The documentary had two themes however, one showing what had been taking place, the other about the development of military camera crews to record the war.

A lot of the footage had never been seen before and, whilst we have all seen the all to familiar aftermath and events leading up to the Holocaust, the clips shown were, if anything, even more emotive due the simplicity of what was filmed and the manner in which it was filmed.

C4 presented a very dignified yet intense documentary as a result.

tony draper
27th Jan 2015, 18:24
A chilling drama of the events that led up to the holocaust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPIctGbAZEQ

cavortingcheetah
27th Jan 2015, 18:35
In a British context I seem to remember that the Channel Islands were abandoned to the Germans without a shot being fired; that there were four concentration (as distinct form extermination) camps built on Alderney; that inmates from those camps were exported to mainland Nazi concentration camps towards the end of the war; that Jews were rounded up throughout the islands, that with the aid of the various local police forces they were exported for extermination.
Spare a thought too, if permitted to do so, for the hundreds of thousands of those who were not Jewish who were murdered, those for whom the final solution was nothing more than a ghastly expansion of an already finite and miserable existence.

OFSO
27th Jan 2015, 19:02
hundreds of thousands of those who were not Jewish who were murdered,

1.5 million if I remember correctly: gypsies, Christians, the crippled and lame, people with psychiatric problems - oh and those courageous people who spoke up against the National Socialist regime (of whom there were more than you think).

A slight diversion, but on the subject of collective national amnesia, in Spain you'd think the Spanish Civil War never happened. And the present government has played a major part in preventing enquiries into the executions, mutilations, torture, burning alives and extermination of whole villages that went on here.

Espada III
27th Jan 2015, 19:19
Metroman should be ashamed of his comments above. This is not about the Jewish lobby or Israeli PR but about millions of people deliberately targetted for murder; to destroy the Jews, Roma and other 'unwanted' in Europe, by a supposedly civilised nation. To show that however 'modern' we think we are, a minority of extremists can cause a whole nation to gang up on the vulnerable.

Of course there have been other Holocausts but none so large, so determined, so organised as the Nazi one. That is why we all observe 27th January - to ensure it can never happen again. Because it can so easily.

rgbrock1
27th Jan 2015, 19:23
Let us all also not forget the genocide of the Armenian people at the hands of the Turks.
Although the 1 - 1.5 million Armenians exterminated as a result of this pales in comparison to the Jews exterminated by the Nazis, it is still despicable.

Lonewolf_50
27th Jan 2015, 19:26
- to ensure it can never happen again. Because it can so easily. I hate to advise you of this, but the history of the human race suggests that it is more likely to happen again than not.
A data point for your consideration is Rwanda, 1993-1994 ish. They were unable to achieve the Nazi's grisly body count, but hey, they didn't have six solid years to do it in. :p

People find a lot of reasons, some really stupid (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/20/world/middleeast/miss-israels-selfie-puts-another-miss-in-a-bind.html?WT.mc_id=2015-JAN-OUTBRAIN-TECHNOLOGY_AUD_DEV-0121-0131&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=OUTBRAINAD&_r=0), to dislike and get angry with one another. Why you would think that these commemorations will somehow stop that is a mystery to me.

Espada III
27th Jan 2015, 19:29
And whilst the Germans apologised, paid reparations and were forgiven by the Jews, the Turks have never admitted their guilt and there is still bad blood between them and the Armenians. The Armenian quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem is plastered with posters about the Armenian genocide, reminding people that it happened and to beware of the Turks. Good Advice.

rgbrock1
27th Jan 2015, 19:43
A colleague and good friend of mine is Armenian. Both of his parents were exterminated by the Turks. He minces no words when he speaks of the Turks. And, yes, the Turks have never apologized for the Armenian genocide.

SilsoeSid
27th Jan 2015, 20:02
https://news.tes.co.uk/b/news/2015/01/27/schoolchildren-lack-basic-holocaust-knowledge-report-finds.aspx

The UCL Centre for Holocaust Education has also offered a sample curriculum, helping teachers to tackle the Holocaust from Key Stage 2 through to the end of secondary school. At the moment, Holocaust education is compulsory only at Key Stage 3, though there are opportunities to study it at all other stages of primary and secondary education.


https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=2460024

Auschwitz visit for every school
The Government is paying for groups from every secondary to visit the Nazi camp. Adi Bloom joins sixth-formers on a thought-provoking trip. The rain, like the history of the place, is relentless. Behind the watchtower, the sky is grey; rain slashes at right angles to the barbed wire. The day is unremittingly bleak.


I don't understand why we feel the overwhelming need to educate our children to not do something that their forefathers didn't do, especially when the politicians of today are doing nothing about the genocide that is happening around the World we presently live in!


2012
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/708_World_Map_Genocide_Alert.JPG
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Countries_at_Risk_Report_2012.pdf

Red - Stage 7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing.

Orange - Stage 6. PREPARATION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. Members of victim groups are forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is expropriated. They are often segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved.

Yellow - 5. POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Laws may forbid intermarriage or social interaction. Extremist terrorism targets moderates, intimidating and silencing the centre.



So who was it that said that if we don't educate our children about the Holocaust, it will happen again?
Doesn't seem to be working does it!

Tu.114
27th Jan 2015, 20:36
Where T.F., is the German delegation?

Why, do you expect them to acknowledge it ? When I had stepchildren in Germany in the late 1980's there was no mention of it in the school history lessons and unlike the older generation I knew (who had genuine regrets and sorrows for the holocaust) the children had never heard of it.

You may believe a product of the German late 1980s/early 1990s school system that this subject was very much included in the school curriculum and was extensively covered.

As to the question where the German delegation was, the article on Spiegel Online (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/gedenken-an-auschwitz-auftritt-von-bundespraesident-gauck-a-1015339.html) seems to hint at Federal President Gaucks presence at Auschwitz itself today for the 70th anniversary of the liberation. Hardly a sign of evading the memory.

beaufort1
27th Jan 2015, 21:05
In a British context I seem to remember that the Channel Islands were abandoned to the Germans without a shot being fired; that there were four concentration (as distinct form extermination) camps built on Alderney; that inmates from those camps were exported to mainland Nazi concentration camps towards the end of the war; that Jews were rounded up throughout the islands, that with the aid of the various local police forces they were exported for extermination.

To put this in context from a Guernsey perspective. Guernsey did have its own militia up until WW1. This militia basically got wiped out during one of the first ever tank battles at Cambrai. The local militia never recovered and the remnants were amalgamated into the Hampshire Regiment. Due to this, and the fact they would be very difficult to defend, the islands were demilitarised at the outbreak of WWII, but this information was never passed on by the British Government to the Germans, as a result of this St. Peter Port Harbour was bombed and dozens of civilians were killed. The Germans mistook lorries carrying tomatoes for ammunition trucks. There has been a lot of talk this week about the three Jewesses that were deported, something I hadn't realised was that they were in fact German and held German papers, there wasn't a lot the local authorities could have done. Another less known fact was that they were in fact initially sent to St. Malo where they stayed for three months before ending up at Auschwitz. I'm not 100% sure of my facts, but quite a few people from the islands were initially sent to St. Malo, (on the local news this evening 1300 was the number given) it then seems a SS division was sent to St. Malo looking for manpower, and this was when the majority were sent to various camps. A lot of Channel Islanders were sent to Biberach, Buchenwald amongst others. There was also a lot interned who were British but not Channel Island by birth.

Just to clarify, one of the four camps in Alderney was run by the SS. This was Lager Sylt camp. It is estimated that over 6000 prisoners were killed in Alderney, mainly through starvation and brutality. The main gate posts are still standing today.

mikedreamer787
27th Jan 2015, 21:36
Drapes though yours is an impressive movie,
this one I believe is a bit more closer to the
truth based on the single surviving document
from that infamous conference.

URSNN5mnI2g

Sir George Cayley
27th Jan 2015, 22:15
Glancing through my fingers at film shot during the liberation of a number of Nazi death camps, I was struck by similar pictures remembered from the post Yugoslav Republic break up.

Ethnic cleansing in the 20th C and again in this century in Syria and Iraq.

Are we over optimistic hoping for that better world where peace, love and happiness prevail?

SGC:(

cavortingcheetah
27th Jan 2015, 22:33
With regard to the Armenian genocides, I seem to think that no Turkish government has ever acknowledged that the murders occurred, let alone apologized for the exterminations. Perhaps this is something that the Greeks, as a service to humanity, could address if they are thrown back whence they came, into the folds of the ci-devant Ottoman Empire, as a consequence of their financial chicanery and intransigence.

Gertrude the Wombat
27th Jan 2015, 23:26
I was struck by similar pictures remembered from the post Yugoslav Republic break up.
I was in Kosovo to run a polling station. The village I was assigned to was a Muslim (but not Albanian) village, and the KFOR forces for the area were German.

During the local familiarisation, we were being taken around by our drivers and translators, and we got taken to one of the translator's homes to visit his parents and family.

One question we were asked was "why are you here?".

I knew exactly what was meant. Why had we given up a week of our time to spend it sleeping five to a room in a hotel with intermittant power, heating and water, to work a 36-hour shift on election day, in the freezing cold, with no access to a decent toilet, etc etc, in order to help them run an election?

I explained that my grandparents generation had heard the stories coming out of Germany in the 1930s and done absolutely bugger all about them, done absolutely nothing at all whatsoever to try to reduce the impact of the Holocaust, just looked the other way and decided it wasn't happening, or they didn't know about it, or it was someone else's problem.

When it came to my generation's turn to hear the same stories coming out of Kosovo - various forms of turning up the screws on restrictions and persecution of an ethnic group, with concentration camps being the next stage - there wasn't anything that I could immediately personally do about it, not having any military skills, other than to form part of the public opinion that was lobbying our government not to look the other way, this time, with eyes shut and fingers in ears and singing la-la-la.

But after the war, when the call went out for people to help run the election, although this was only a tiny contribution to rebuilding the country it was something I could do, as I had the necessary skills and experience.

"So that," I said, "is why I, a Jew, am sitting here as a guest in your Muslim household, and depending for my security on those German kids with machine guns down the road."

They understood.

tdracer
27th Jan 2015, 23:44
Back in the early 1970s, I went on a tour of Europe with a bunch of fellow highschoolers (Switzerland, West Germany, Austria, France, and the UK). We spent the better part of a day at the Dachau memorial. I knew quite a bit about WWII and the Holocaust - my dad fought the Japanese in the Pacific so I'd done a lot of reading about the war, plus I had several teachers over the years who had fought in Europe or the Pacific and some of them liked to talk about it (others not so much).
However "knowing about it" was nothing like seeing Dachau first hand. It made quite the impression on a 17 year old boy :sad:.

BTW, most of the stuff I've read put the Holocaust at between 11 and 13 million, roughly half of those Jews. Hitler targeted the Jews, but he wasn't shy about spreading the misery with others he considered 'undesirable'.

obgraham
28th Jan 2015, 00:05
So we have a number of ongoing genocides in the world today, and some of you are wondering why we need to keep memorializing such atrocities?

Incredible!

con-pilot
28th Jan 2015, 00:28
After touring the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I decided that every schoolchild at the age of 13 and above in the United States should be taken to that museum and go through it, if at federal government expense if required.

I’m not one to waste our tax dollars, but I do not believe that this would be a waste. Our children need to know this inhumanity, not just to read about it, but see the horror up close and personal.


There needs to be a bar right next the Holocaust Museum, because I really needed a drink after I finished the tour, badly. But it would not be a fun place.

megan
28th Jan 2015, 03:55
but I fear that it is for nought, for within our psyche lie the seeds and we will to do the same againAmen. We need to remember the genocidal practices that resulted in the creation of the modern day Australia and USA for example - not the only two of course.

parabellum
28th Jan 2015, 05:07
OFSO: the many Germans I worked with were impressive in their recognition of the facts and their willingness to talk about the war. Hitler impressions included.Think a lot may depend on whereabouts in Germany one is.

During the mid sixties I was based in a place called Verden in the Northern part of Germany, forty Kms south of Bremen, an agricultural area only lightly touched by WW2. Between Verden and Nienburg, a town a bit south of Verden, they raised two battalions of Waffen SS and in the mid sixties were still very proud of this fact, they held a remembrance day each year too, it was illegal but the authorities turned a blind eye and we soldaten were advised to stay out of town. Overall the locals were not that friendly.
We found it changed the further south we went until in Bavaria they were extremely hospitable.

We were within driving distance of Belsen, near Hohne, and visited a couple of times. We noticed the German visitors treated it quite light heartedly compared to other visiting nationalities. The numbers on the massed graves, when added up, do not come near to the actual number of people who died in Belsen and the original memorial, erected by the Jews immediately after the war was engraved with words that spoke of the thousands who were murdered by the Germans in the camp, when the Germans later built a much bigger memorial it hid the original one and only spoke of people dying in the camp. Behind the main camp area their is an almost hidden cemetery where the Russian POWs who were murdered were buried, this area was not signposted in those days. The general impression then was that the Germans were trying to downplay the Holocaust.

ExSp33db1rd
28th Jan 2015, 06:39
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. (or words to that effect )

piperboy84
28th Jan 2015, 07:09
I think it is essential to pay tribute and memorialize all victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide regardless of who, when and where, it’s important to learn the lessons of the holocaust's perpetrated on the jews, Armenians, Rawandans and the Chinese. I also think it is just as important to teach our kids the values and traditions those brave liberators of the camps who fought the Nazis were fighting for including the right to free speech, the quote below was taken from a previous post on this thread and as I understand current European “hate crime” laws statements such as this could get you locked up and there appears to be a large push to quell free speech even more after the Charlie Hebdo attack.

there are seemingly credible arguments to show that the 6 million might not be totally accurate,

chuks
28th Jan 2015, 07:20
I live just south of Verden-an-der-Aller, the town referred to by Parabellum in his post just above.

The Nazis supported agriculture, and this is still a farming region, so that the locals were spared most of the negative effects of Nazi rule. That might account for the way that people here are not so sensitized to exactly what Nazi rule meant for other Germans. Not an excuse, that, just a partial explanation.

I was a bit startled, one evening sat there watching the news, when my mother-in-law greeted the sight of a shelter for refugees that was set afire by saying "Thank God someone is doing something about those foreigners!"

Well, the poor thing was as thick as two short planks, and had come out of Pomerania one jump ahead of the Red Army, advancing in a good old-fashioned campaign of pillage, rape and murder, something right out of the Middle Ages. (She came out of there on the Wilhelm Gustloff, on its last voyage before it was torpedoed and sunk by a Russian submarine, a sinking with the largest loss of life ever; estimates range from four to nine thousand dead, almost all German refugees, many of them women and children.)

I just gritted my teeth then and thought that I would get around to sorting her out later if she didn't learn to wind her goddam Nazi neck in. She didn't, of course, so I did! Then she could not believe that a foreigner had rights too, her attorney telling her that she had no case to bring against me in a local court.

Americans hold a special place in the consciousness of many older Germans. We are rude and crude, powerful and rich, and we did beat their Wehrmacht to a pulp and get the Nazis off their necks, so that they really don't quite know what to think about us, even to this day. Where I live had been in the British zone of occupation, and I think the Brits might have been a bit more polite. Not that your average squaddie is exactly a good-will ambassador.

On the other hand, there's an interesting program that puts little bronze cubes in place of paving stones at places once inhabited by German Jews, across Germany. These cubes bear the names and dates of the Jews, and they are called Stolpersteine, "stumbling blocks." You can see them scattered throughout central Verden. Some cubes were uprooted in Bremen, but that was done by Muslim immigrants or the children thereof who objected to the attention paid to Jewish victims of the Holocaust!

Things have improved since he was here, so that the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz just saw a ceremony take place at the Holocaust memorial close to the Town Hall.

There was a major screw-up just south of where I live, in Barme, when an ex-Bundeswehr facility was sold to a London-based foundation that was a very thin cover for a local neo-Nazi group. The neos planned to build a fertility center for the breeding of Aryan children and, of course, a nice little activity center where they could get together, march around in rag-tag uniforms, sing the old songs, and educate children in their warped beliefs.

The neo-Nazis were targeting the Gymnasium my daughter attended, handing out rather well-done propaganda on the sidewalk in front of the school, a public area not subject to restrictions on doing that. So the students put a brown wheelie bin by the entrance to the school, encouraging everyone to dump the propaganda there.

We had marches down the local highway, the B215, to the site of the planned facility in Barme, marches that were fairly well attended; I went along with my children, the neo-Nazis glowering at us in places as we went. Finally, the local authorities tangled the neo-Nazis in red tape, since they needed approval of a change of use to what they had planned, approval that was not forthcoming so that the project stalled. Then their brainy leader, a dodgy attorney named Rieger, popped his clogs, leaving the rest of them all dressed up with nowhere to go.

Belsen itself now has an extensive museum dedicated to the history of the Holocaust. It's staffed by young Germans who do a very good job in directing visitors. The cemeteries themselves, though, are probably about the same as Parabellum found them. The Russian cemetery is nearly hidden; you really have to look for it.

ATNotts
28th Jan 2015, 08:37
Any suggestion that the Germans somehow "ignored" Holocaust Memorial Day are wide of the mark, and indicative of a country (the UK) where European TV is largely unavailable and peoples opinions coloured accordingly.

President Gauck did go to Auschwitz yesterday; the main breakfast TV programme, Morgenmagazin, on ARD / ZDF did run a 20 minute in depth feature on the holocaust including interviews with relatives of survivors, and ZDF did run a 2 hours special yesterday afternoon.

Hardly ignoring / sweeping the historical fact under the carpet.

The German government is worried about the affect that PEGIDA, with their racist rhetoric is having on Germany's reputation abroad, as they remember their history and don't want a repeat. Of if there were to be a repeat, it would be against Muslims, not Jews - so I guess that would be OK? :rolleyes:

Hempy
28th Jan 2015, 09:51
The German government is worried about the affect that PEGIDA, with their racist rhetoric is having on Germany's reputation abroad, as they remember their history and don't want a repeat. Of if there were to be a repeat, it would be against Muslims, not Jews - so I guess that would be OK?

The PEGIDA weed seems to be doing ok on home soil. The Government is right to worry, the fact that it's sprouted so abundantly in Germany and not in say France or the UK or the US (etc..) may suggest fertile ground..

hZFmnz4ROEo

rh200
28th Jan 2015, 10:20
The German government is worried about the affect that PEGIDA, with their racist rhetoric is having on Germany's reputation abroad,

care to post some links to official statements by them that are racist? Admittedly I havn't paid to much attention to them, but the odd interview i have heard, they have gone to great pains to state they are not anti muslim anti etc. They just want integration with their culture.

oldchina
28th Jan 2015, 11:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlq0NcKEzRQ

ATNotts
28th Jan 2015, 11:16
The PEGIDA weed seems to be doing ok on home soil. The Government is right to worry, the fact that it's sprouted so abundantly in Germany and not in say France or the UK or the US (etc..) may suggest fertile ground..

It's ironic that PEGIDA has sprung up in Sachsen, a state which has hardly any immigrants / asylum seekers in comparison with many cities in states like Nordrhein Westfalen and Hessen. A feature on Morgenmagazin this week noted that it's very much supported by the 50+ demographic, and many of the same people who demonstrated against the SED in the dying days of the DDR.

This is a not dis-similar demographic to that which tends towards UKIP in UK.

care to post some links to official statements by them that are racist? Admittedly I havn't paid to much attention to them, but the odd interview i have heard, they have gone to great pains to state they are not anti muslim anti etc. They just want integration with their culture.

I can do no better than direct you towards the language used on many of the demonstrators placards, and the recent revelation that it's erstwhile leader / founder member seems to enjoy dressing up in Nazi uniform.

Furtunately there seem to be many more demonstrators in Dresden, and other cities, mainly, it has to be said, in the former West Germany, arguing for tolerance and an open Germany.

Octopussy2
28th Jan 2015, 12:03
Con-pilot I absolutely agree. It pains me to think of putting my children through it, but I believe we MUST educate them about this.

Gertrude - great story.

It's not a question of why should we commemorate such an event because "it wasn't us". It wasn't us that time. It was on other occasions and could be in the future - this applies to any nation, because we are all human and as we know from past experience, that makes us capable of terrible cruelty (and amazing altruism too, thankfully).

chuks
28th Jan 2015, 13:06
Do a bit of digging, when you can come up with an image of the former leader of PEGIDA with a little Hitler moustache and his hair swept down in the style of Hitler ... unbelievable! He resigned once that came to light, but that image still left a large, brown stain behind.

Lonewolf_50
28th Jan 2015, 13:59
I notice the silence among the usual about the Ustasi in Croatia and their attempt at the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in parts of Yugoslavia during WW II. If you're going to cite examples, might want to broaden the scope.

airship
28th Jan 2015, 14:09
I couldn't readily find a similar graphic on the Jewish pupulation today (or from 75 years ago), but this concerns Muslims in Europe today and is from the Economist newspaper 17th January ed. "Solidarity, for now" (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21639537-backlash-against-european-muslims-would-play-hands-killers-solidarity):

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20150117_FBM973_0.png

Compare the real %s of Muslims with those %s the public "perceives" them to represent as part of the population. Obviously, minorities (whether Muslims today or Jews 75 years ago) tend to concentrate in some areas instead of being spread out evenly across the whole country, which can also skew the public perception.

The point is: how much of this error between public perception and the true situation is caused by those who actually have "an agenda" and the means to perpetuate mis-truths and generally incite hatred or at least inflate passions...? As many here have already expressed, the dangers of another genocide being perpetrated (anywhere on the Globe) can never be minimised: there are folks out there right now, whose "dreams and life's ambitions" are dedicated to make the next genocide an eventuality. They may hide themselves running semi-respectable political parties or organisations meanwhile. Gaining popularity. Never revealing what their true intentions are until it's too late.

PS. How Europe views Jews and Muslims in 2014:

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2015/01/FT_15.01.13_JewMuslimFavUnfav310px.png

More from Pew Research on that here (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/14/french-have-positive-views-of-both-jews-muslims/).

con-pilot
28th Jan 2015, 18:42
Very interesting Airship.

Thanks for posting that.

Espada III
28th Jan 2015, 18:59
The proportion of Greeks who clearly dislike the Jews is worryingly high. Maybe they should stay in the Euro and EU just to keep them under the watchful eye of those who do know better.

I can't think what the Jews ever did to Greece to make them hate us so much. Salonika was a major port with a notable Jewish presence pre-war, which lead to an improvement in the economic situation for the town. But many of them were murdered by the Nazis and their Greek sympathisers despite the town itself being not known for anti-semitism.

rgbrock1
28th Jan 2015, 19:01
Wow, a lucid and coherent moment from airship. I'm impressed. :}:E (You know I love ya man!)

G&T ice n slice
28th Jan 2015, 19:30
So it was introduced in 2001?

we managed without it between 1946 and 2000? what changed? why do we need it?

Why shouldn't those who wish to observe this day be a problem to you?
Do you feel it's all somehow being shoved down your throat?
What's your agenda?
Are you really "totally baffled" as you so innocently claim?
What's your agenda?
Don't deny it!

(1) If someone wants to observe the day fine, but why do we need an "official" day?
(2) Yes, I do feel that there is some sort of agenda about getting this into the forefront of everything. Why? who benefits?
(3) I don;t have an agenda
(4) Don;t deny what ??

Yes, all sorts of nasty things happen in the world. Why do the British need a day to "remember" the Holocaust (with a capital 'H' aparently). We didn't do it and we didn't have to have a special day, but suddenly we do need a special day and special classes in schools and school trips and "Holocaust Studies" and "Degree in Holocaust studies" and so on and so forth.

It is beyond me, why not "national remember the Alamo day" or "national Hiroshima day"??

how's about "National remember what the Japanese did to British & Empire troops and civilians in contravention of the Geneva Convention day"

How about "Remember the dead of the King David hotel bombing day"

rgbrock1
28th Jan 2015, 19:39
G&T:

Or how about a "Remember what the Japanese did to the Chinese as far as extermination is concerned Day"?

For once, this very once mind you, I agree 100% with everything you wrote above. (Do pigs fly?)

modtinbasher
28th Jan 2015, 20:00
Tinbashette and I (both war babies) visited Krakow and did the trip to these places.


I challenge anyone, even some of the most hard hearted barsterds some of you may be, not to be emotionally moved if have the courage to go and see for yourself.


You will not hear much noise, most visitors fail to speak because they fear that they may upset/cause offence/cause an argument or simply upset themselves.


Imagine, hundreds of people around you, visiting at the same time, and there is an unearthly silence, punctured by adults and others silently weeping....... There may be the odd group of 3 girls or so singing softly to a guitar, but that's about it.


OK, go, details follow:


Visiting the Auschwitz and Birkenau
Currently every year some 1,400,000 visitors come to Oswiecim, an industrial town of 45,000, to see the Auschwitz. Half of them are Poles, and the rest mostly from the USA, Germany, the UK, France, Italy, and Israel. Nearly 30 million people have already visited the place.
It takes minimum an hour to see the Auschwitz proper, and another to visit the nearby Birkenau site called Auschwitz II. They are open to visitors (except January 1, December 25, and Easter Sunday) from 8 a.m. to 7 p.m. June through August, till 6 p.m. in September, till 5 p.m. in October, till 4 p.m. in November, till 3 p.m. in December through February, till 4 p.m. in March, till 5 p.m. in April, till 6 p.m. in May. Archives, library, collections, management, etc. work on weekdays from 8 a.m. to 2 p.m.
Independent visitors may and groups should employ an authorized guide. Over 150 of them provide tours in Croatian, Czech, English, French, German, Hungarian, Italian, Japanese, Polish, Russian, Serbian, and Spanish.
Admission to the Auschwitz and Birkenau is free. Unfortunately huge numbers of visitors have prompted the management to restrict access to Auschwitz proper to guided tours only between 10 a.m. and 3 p.m. from April 1st through October 31st. Individual tourists may join English tours at 9:30 a.m., 10:30 a.m., 11:30 a.m., half past noon, 1:30 p.m., and 2:30 p.m., German tours at 10:30 p.m., noon, and 1:30 p.m., French tours at 10:30 p.m., noon, and 1:30 p.m., Spanish tours at noon and 2 p.m., and Italian tours at 10:30 p.m., noon, and 1:30 p.m. Such a tour lasts about four hours and it costs 38 zloties per person.
Booking office is open from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. on weekdays. Phone number (+48) 338448100 or 0338448099, fax (+48) 338432227. Web site www.AUSCHWITZ.org (http://www.auschwitz.org.pl)
Individual visitors are free to see the Birkenau site (Auschwitz II) anytime during opening hours. Auschwitz proper and Birkenau are situated some three kilometers apart, a forty minutes' walk. A free bus links the two sites from April 15th through October 31st departing every 60 minutes: from Birkenau on the hour and from Auschwitz 30 minutes later.
Please note that exhibitions may prove traumatic and visiting the death camps isn't appropriate for kids under 14.
Travel to Auschwitz and Birkenau

Oswiecim is easily accessible owing to the region’s extensive railroad and bus networks and the ample road system. When in Krakow, motorists may reach Oswiecim fastest via the paid four-lane expressway to Katowice (exit to Chrzanów after some 20 minutes).
Every day frequent buses and trains leave for Oswiecim from Krakow's centrally situated bus depot at 18 Bosacka street and the main rail station adjoining the Old Town to the northeast. As to public transport, a bus that stops by the Auschwitz site seems more convenient than a train.
A number of travel agencies in Krakow (http://www.krakow-info.com/operator.htm) offer day trips (http://www.krakow-info.com/tours.htm) to the Auschwitz.


BE MOVED, GO


MTB

Lonewolf_50
28th Jan 2015, 20:32
Chunking. It's more than a brand of bad Chinese food sold in cans.*
Chongqing, apparently, there's a new spelling. It's a fine example of man's inhumanity to man.

Nanking: another example of man's inhumanity to man.

Is Nanking Remembrance Day a required celebration? How about Chunking Remembrance Day?

Maybe a Wan King remembrance day. :p

(actually, Chun King(TM), or as I used to call it, Chum King. :) La Choy is no better. Chun King has, thankfully, gone the way of many bad products: out of business. I used to stock it on grocery store shelves, but I won't overstate its badness by calling it taste bud nor digestive genocide. I'll just say that it sucked. )

Gertrude the Wombat
28th Jan 2015, 21:07
BE MOVED, GO
Similarly, if you see someone sitting crying on a bench in Prinsengracht you'll know where they've just been.

Rwy in Sight
28th Jan 2015, 21:18
I (hope) you have a PM because I am not going to type it again.

Rwy in Sight

rh200
29th Jan 2015, 00:02
I can do no better than direct you towards the language used on many of the demonstrators placards, and the recent revelation that it's erstwhile leader / founder member seems to enjoy dressing up in Nazi uniform.

All movements left or right have extremists amongst them, thats why the other side loves to highlight them in the media. Its all about percentages and what is the base movement. You note I asked what the official positions and statements of the leaders are, also if they are known extremists.

On the Hitler bit, whats the context, was he up to some extremist function or was he p!ssed at a party? I do believe a member of the Royal family has been caught dressed up as Hitler, or at least doing the salute or imitating him. Drunken noobs dressing up as Hitler is not unusual

Anyway, he's paid the price for it.


The graphic is nice, but fankly it doesn't show anything unusual or unexpected. What your saying is that people think there are more Muslims than there is, like no sh!t Sherlock.

People get impressions from their local area and media, hence its natural, the average punter has virtually no idea of relative numbers of anything, thats why both sides of politics use absolute numbers in things when it suits to shock and awe.

What the graphic doesn't show, is the delta, another words the rate of change, which is the important number for projections.

What it does show and is concerning, is the numbers are getting high in some countries if you keep things on a logical level, and concentrations in areas.

One only needs to look at some other countries to see what we would think are small percentages, to see how they can actually run the county against the will of the majority, or destabilize it. Dreaming that our goodness and just system will prevail is sticking your head in the sand.

KBPsen
29th Jan 2015, 00:53
There's always one who'll excuse and explain away.

reynoldsno1
29th Jan 2015, 01:55
In Asia it's not unusual (especially at high schools) - and they really do have no idea what the fuss is about ....

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Screen-shot-2012-03-06-at-6.08.32-AM.png

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/thainazi01.jpg

http://weeklyworldnews.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/nazi_girlc.jpg?w=340&h=212

John Hill
29th Jan 2015, 02:07
I see, there are some massacres not to be mentioned on this site.

Dea Certe
29th Jan 2015, 05:47
I think we need an official day of Remembrance for several reasons. The first to my mind is that the whole systematic murder of innocent people by a government is almost too much to be believed. We don't want to believe humans can be so evil. So filled with hate, so irrational millions of people would stand by in the world and let it happen. The worst of the horrors only took twelve years from start to finish.

Eleven million people were executed in these camps. And the citizens stood by. And whole nations stood by. Who could believe it? An educated, sophicated, developed nation? Allow mad men to do mass murder? Allow them to torture and do "medical" experiments just to watch the suffering? Who would believe it?

As time goes by, we forget because it's just too crazy to be believed. This is why we need an Official Day. So those coming up behind us know what we as a human race are capable of if left unchecked by the good people.

rh200
29th Jan 2015, 09:30
There's always one who'll excuse and explain away.

Who's excusing, blindly following the party line or whats "the in thing" is a bad thing no matter what side of politics your are. One should always question if what you believe is right, or if what your being presented is right.

Pinky the pilot
29th Jan 2015, 09:40
Eleven million people were executed in these camps.

Dea Certe; I beg to differ slightly. Please excuse the pedantry.

The eleven million were not executed! They were murdered!

I believe there is a difference.

papajuliet
29th Jan 2015, 12:28
I see that Cameron has now pledged £50,000,000 towards a Holocaust memorial. Why? Is he even more stupid than we thought. Is it a new, unique memorial or just another one?
We know what the Germans did to the Jews and it won't ever be forgotten. Why squander more of the taxpayers money?

rh200
29th Jan 2015, 12:36
I believe there is a difference.

As I stated on the other thread in reference to that situation, you are correct. But they can be both.

In this case if they where murdered depends upon what law they where operating under. I think the trials after the war took care of that, though I'm not a lawyer to be able to dictate whether they changed German law to legalize it at the time, or just kept it hidden.

Espada III
29th Jan 2015, 12:49
Despite being Jewish I am surprised, although it does include a centre to educate the next generations.

Flying Lawyer
29th Jan 2015, 13:49
Espada III
Metroman should be ashamed of his comments above.
I understand why you might have strong views about this topic but, objectively, there is no reason whatsoever why Metroman should be ashamed of the opinions he expressed.
He said nothing that objectively/unemotionally could reasonably be regarded as unacceptable or offensive.
You are free to say in what respects you disagree with him, and why.
Jetblast would be a dull place if everyone agreed with each other - although there's no chance of that ever happening.

-

No strong views about whether the UK should have a Holocaust Memorial Day but, if it did not already exist, I wouldn't be in favour it being created. Or, not in its current form and not with that title.

The £50 million pledge is surprising, even more so in the middle of an austerity programme - but I'm not a politician.
I've visited the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was moved by the experience - no-one could fail to be - but no more than when I've read about it or watched harrowing footage shown in documentaries on television. I'm far from persuaded that public money should be donated to a memorial and education centre in London.

We do seem to be rather selective about which acts of genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' should be kept in the public mind, and future generations educated.

Lonewolf_50
29th Jan 2015, 15:45
We do seem to be rather selective about which acts of genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' should be kept in the public mind, and future generations educated. You might wish to revisit the thread wherein a BBC official complained that he got an inordinate number of complaints about BBC coverage of Israeli issues (wherein Israel was criticized). It appears that certain interest groups are very active in bringing their pet cause to public attention via the media, and other means.

Motives doubtless vary, but I don't doubt that "never forget" and "don't let it happen again" are deeply held convictions within those interest groups for very understandable and emotionally powerful reasons.

EDIT: I cannot find the JB thread that covered this matter, but I think it was this summer and that what sparked it was some comments made by Greg Dyke of the BBC (or formerly of the BBC) and his observation of immense criticism over remarks critical of Israel. (http://bbcwatch.org/2014/07/28/two-bbc-programmes-claim-criticism-of-israel-brings-accusations-of-antisemitism/)

Not sure why I can't find the thread, but maybe the mods nuked it due to it becoming heated and insulting regarding the Israel/Palestine Hamster Wheel sort of stuff.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2015, 16:14
I also notice that not much lip-service is given by many to the unmitigated genocide that occurred not too long ago in Dafur. Then again, the cases of modern-time genocide are not easy to keep track of.

Gertrude the Wombat
29th Jan 2015, 17:26
I also notice that not much lip-service is given by many to the unmitigated genocide that occurred not too long ago in Dafur.
It's featured in our local HMD events - not in yours then?

Lonewolf_50
29th Jan 2015, 17:42
The Darfur problems come and go in our media over the past decade. A couple of years ago it got a bit of extra press since George Clooney made it one of the humanitarian causes that he wished to draw attention to.

Was the war in Sudan and South Sudan war, or genocide, and where is the distinction? I find the term "genocide" to be hijacked by a lot of people who are glib with language who wish to use shock to get attention/make a point.

See also charges of genocide against the government in Sri Lanka vis a vis the Tamil uprising. Genocide? Really? I wonder if people are watering down that term's meaning by overuse and abuse.
"I don't think that word means what you think it means."
~~Inigo Montoya~~

NOTE: An atrocity is NOT genocide. An army can commit a variety of atrocities that are not genocide, nor part of a program of genocide. (Example: My Lai. Example: Malmedy).
EDIT

Some claims of genocide that I find to be spurious.
http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/sri-lanka
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/11/04/sri_lankas_hidden_genocide.html
http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/01/permanent-peoples-tribunal-verdict-sri-lanka-commits-genocide-against-tamils/
I note that Francis Boyles is trying to sell a book. Gee, what publisher might use hyperbole to attract attention and sales?
What does this word mean? (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=genocide)
genocide (n.) First citation is 1944, apparently coined by Polish-born U.S. jurist Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) in his work "Axis Rule in Occupied Europe" [p.19], in reference to Nazi extermination of Jews, literally "killing a tribe," from Greek genos "race, kind" (see genus) + -cide. The proper formation would be *genticide.

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aimed at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. [Lemkin]
Earlier in a similar sense was populicide (1799), from French populicide, by 1792, a word from the Revolution. This was taken into German, as in Völkermeuchelnden "genocidal" (Heine), which was Englished 1893 as folk-murdering. Ethnocide is attested from 1974 in English (1970 in French). Humpty Forking Dumpty.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2015, 17:46
Getrude wrote:

It's featured in our local HMD events - not in yours then?

Ahhhh, no. Just where American Idol will be held this week.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2015, 17:47
LW50:

I find the term "genocide" to be hijacked by a lot of people who are glib with language who wish to use shock to get attention/make a point.

As I find the term "terrorist." Hijacked by way too many people for nefarious purposes it seems.

Lonewolf_50
29th Jan 2015, 17:55
LW50: As I find the term "terrorist." Hijacked by way too many people for nefarious purposes it seems.
I see what you did there. ;)

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2015, 18:11
LW50:

You like?!!! :}

Flying Lawyer
29th Jan 2015, 18:12
Lonewolf_50
You might wish to revisit the thread .....
I'd rather not. It was one of the worst threads I remember in this forum.
Anyone who dared to make any criticism of Israel's actions, however mild, was accused of anti-semitism by a small but very active group. There was no real discussion and most of the regular debaters just gave up. I did.
I doubt if the Mods nuked it. If they were going to (which I think they should have done because of all the personal insults/abuse) I think they would have done it much sooner.

rgb

Agree re lip-service to other genocides.
That's one of the reservations I have about Holocaust Memorial Days.

Lonewolf_50
29th Jan 2015, 19:36
Lonewolf_50
I'd rather not. It was one of the worst threads I remember in this forum.
Indeed, not JB's finest hour.

cockney steve
30th Jan 2015, 00:28
Europe/ the Western world, keeps , AIUI, a peace-keeping beurocracy, called NATO.

As a layman, I would hope these very clever people would be intimately aquainted with the political and military status everywhere in the world, even the odd "closed" country (North Korea?)
So, why and how do they have the moral torpitude and lack of will to mobilise the pledged NATO troops to crush any of these Kosovo/Rwanda / Darfur -type terror attacks on minorities......had they jumped in immediately in the present IS situation and shown the PEACEKEEPERS' determination to carry out that task, maybe a lot of grief could have been avoided. I feel nothing but contempt for our politicians . they are still clapping a telescope to their blind-eye and claiming they didn't see any trouble on the horizon.

the only way to fight evil is to remind the evil that they are outnumbered by the good and if they wish to break the peace they will be eliminated ruthlessly.

That doesn't happen and they hold the peacekeepers in contempt as they go about their murderous ways.

what would have happened, had Chamberlain told Hitler to wind his neck in, or be eliminated?

bosnich71
30th Jan 2015, 00:39
Steve ...." what would have happened, had Chamberlain told Hitler to wind his neck in"?
Undoubtedly Adolf would have p****d himself laughing and then carried on as usual ... and we, as in the British, would probably all be speaking a version of German now. Not that I would have minded as with my blonde hair and blue eyes I would have ended up in one of those Nazi baby farms ..... as a 'donor' I hasten to add.

obgraham
30th Jan 2015, 06:33
I would have ended up in one of those Nazi baby farms ..... as a 'donor' I hasten to add. Not hardly. They just strap you to a table and extract what they need with a big needle.

Solid Rust Twotter
30th Jan 2015, 06:44
Dang, Ob! Did you have to say that?

Got bruised kidneys now from my nuts scrambling up there to hide...:ooh:

rgbrock1
30th Jan 2015, 13:27
SRT:

from my nuts scrambling up there to hide..

I won't say a word. I promise. :}:E

Solid Rust Twotter
30th Jan 2015, 19:43
Not your problem, I guess. First thing they do when they issue you your pink tutu is chop off your nuts so they don't dangle down and attract squirrels.:}

rgbrock1
30th Jan 2015, 19:46
Which is way I have an extra pair. :}:E

Solid Rust Twotter
30th Jan 2015, 20:09
The possum scrotum on your keyring doesn't count.

airship
31st Jan 2015, 16:10
FL wrote: ...It was one of the worst threads I remember in this forum.
Anyone who dared to make any criticism of Israel's actions, however mild, was accused of anti-semitism by a small but very active group. There was no real discussion and most of the regular debaters just gave up. I did.


Was it this one (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/543978-gaza-thread-hamster-wheel-28.html#post8584566)? :}

Lonewolf_50
2nd Feb 2015, 20:10
No, it was one mostly concerned with about media coverage and criticism, starting off with a quote by a Mr Dyke, formerly of the BBC.

Anyhoo, I don't want to resurrect that argument, I was just puzzled why I could not find a ref to that thread. It might have been nuked at about the time that other one, which you posted, was closed.