How many real flying hours per month at EK

[JammedStab]

I keep hearing 92 but if I understand correctly, this is 92 in the flight deck. How many actual flying hours are you doing including crew rest?

[fatbus]

92 is the OT threshold , most will not go over due to cost to the company. Some pilots do 92 in the seat( by choice) others do 92 not all in the seat ( by choice) . Not many are hitting the 900 (seat limit), but close.

[TransitCheck]

92.5 for me. Scheduled seat time. That doesn't include the 2 lengthy holds that I have had due to fog and more recently due to rain which are not paid as overtime.

[jack schidt]

EK pays parking brake off to parking brake on. Preparation for the flight and post flight duties, groundschool and simulators are not rewarded, they are your gift to the company on a daily basis. Fairly often the brakes off to on is more than the flight plan block time. The pay given is the flight plan block time as a maximum payment, ie if you spend time in the hold and extend over the flight plan time = less pay as per the flightplan time (hrs).

I could go on but......


Jack

[Neptune Spear]

Wait until the Jepp system comes online. It will be far more efficient for the company and the pilots will suffer even more.
The company will schedule us with less layover time by utilizing creative pairing where you don't fly out on the flight you brought in.
A lot more Avilable Days where the company can utilize you more.
The big deal is pilots can now only ask for 5 items in the bid.
Of course they will fully use the Factoring concept. 900 hours? Most pilots will be well above that threshold.
Is there anyone out there that still wants to join this circus?

[SOPS]

I have been doing 92 hours a month for years now, 92.5 this month.

[Al Murdoch]

63.5 hours a month average over the last twelve months. That's logbook time so brakes off to on (and not factored for ULR, so actual flight time).

[SOPS]

Wish I could get your roster!

[halas]

65 hour average for me per month.

halas

[Al Murdoch]

Well I don't know if it has anything to do with the way I bid... But I almost never bid for days off, just the trips I want. And I spend a fair bit of time on the freighter. I'm a 2yr+ FO

[sheikhmahandy]

The short answer is tooooooo many with the mix and timing of flight duties.

I see it in colleagues.

They are past caring about this job and the pax they

carry unfortunately.

If you hit the horse more often to make it work harder, it cares less about the task.

I'm Knackered!!!:ugh:

[SOPS]

Oh Al, I see, your an FO. I think makes the difference. You guys do seem to have been flying less than captains up to recently.

[The Guru]

JS,

The way it was explained to me was that at EK you get paid a salary, and then a bit more for scheduled block time. Your 92hrs are therefore block hours, and above the 92hrs overtime threshold your hourly flight pay is increased, but your base salary remains constant.

The 92 is the current number set by the company, and has been raised ‘temporarily’ over the company’s history due to operational reasons, and without any consultation with the pilot group. Base salary was not raised resulting in an increase to productivity, only the overtime threshold. To my knowledge it has never been reduced ‘temporarily’. You are invited to bid monthly, and then you are rostered at the company’s discretion for any combination of trips/duties that will bring you up to the maximum of 92hrs.

In a bygone era, all trips/duties were credited towards the company’s quota, and we were paid for them.

Currently however, simulator support duties generate credit, but duties such as your own proficiency simulator, safety and emergency procedures, ground training or online courses and exams are all mandatory but are not included in the 92hrs quota. Company transport will collect you between 2 hours and 2.5 hours before departure, although pre-flight duties before departure and post flight duties 30 minutes after are not part of the quota, nor is any turnaround time.

You could do 2 x ULR (Ultra Long Range) returns, and 1 x LR (Long Range) return, across multiple time zones and meet the threshold. This would involve typically 24-28hrs crew rest in the bunk, 3 trips to work in company transport, and 3 trips back to the airport from the various hotels.


Alternatively you could do 15 x Middle East/India/North Africa turnarounds and remain essentially on DXB local time but still not meet the threshold. This would all be seat time, 15 trips to work in company transport and typically 1.5hrs between each sector during the turnaround.


It varies greatly between the fleets, and the type of roster the company generates, which explains why Al Murdoch has averaged less than SOPS.

There is also a complex factoring process associated with crew rest, but the company makes no distinction between fatigue generated by various time zones, multi-sectors flights or night flights, or a combination of all three factors when they coincide – so essentially all block hours are credited towards the 92 quota equally.

Your question therefore does not have a simple answer, as at EK you need to distinguish between your ‘real flying’ block hours, duty hours, and just the other hours associated with attending, preparing and completing operational duties.

The G

[CATI]

Very detailed explanation, The Guru, thanks.

How many flight duty hours do you have in general per month?

[Desert Camel]

Let's not moan about not being paid for post flight duties, SEP, etc.... After all, we get a salary and as the G said, it has always been very clear that we are getting an extra for scheduled block hours (Flight Pay).


IMHO, what is worth moaning about, for example, is that our FDP starts 1 hour before departure, but we get picked up in general 2 hours 15 minutes before and we are in HQ way before the FDP actually starts....That way, the company can make us fly longer (not to the benefit of our physical well being).

[SOPS]

Now, flight duty hours. Here is an interesting fact. They used to publish our duty hours on our roster, next to our flight hours. And then they removed the duty hours....want to guess why?

[montencee]

Let's not moan about not being paid for post flight duties, SEP, etc.... After all, we get a salary...

There was a time when there was a credit for SEP, CRM, Sim Duties, in fact pretty much everything we did including leave attracted an hourly credit that would sometimes become a payment depending on how much else was done in the month. At that time nothing was paid until 84+ hours of credit was reached and at that point productivity kicked in.

The payment for non-flying duties disappeared around the same time as the first 'cost neutral' salary adjustment but the credit remained in the background so as to build balanced rosters. It wasn't cost neutral but at least what they had done was 'visible' and rosters were still constructed sensibly.

More recently they removed the credit part completely, this was unannounced and remains unannounced. This means that crew can and often will fly a full 92 hour roster and on top of that might spend two days in the simulator and have a day or two of ground school too. Another scheduling favourite is to have 10+ days of leave and still be assigned work close to the 92 hours cap. The 92 flight hours is a target regardless of any other duties.

But let's not moan.

[troff]

59.9 hours/ month average for the last 100+ months.

[SOPS]

You are effectively punished for having leave. You used to have 3 weeks leave and come back and fly maybe 15 to 29 hours for the rest of the month. Now you could find yourself rostered for 40 to 50 hours if not more. It is full stop wrong, but Emirates thinks it's great.

[falconeasydriver]

You are effectively punished for having leave. You used to have 3 weeks leave and come back and fly maybe 15 to 29 hours for the rest of the month. Now you could find yourself rostered for 40 to 50 hours if not more. It is full stop wrong, but Emirates thinks it's great.

A tactical use of "2" is the most effective method of roster management, it's merely our version of a manual insert:}

[montencee]

59.9 hours/ month average for the last 100+ months.

Different seats, different fleets, different hours.

Ball park for this month left seat A380 92-97 hours 11-12 days off, right seat A380 70-75 hours 14 days off. Left seat/right seat on the A330 80+ hours but with just 8-9 days off. The Boeing has more network diversity than the Airbuses so figures are variable.

The quoted poster has spent most of the last 100+ months in the right seat of a Boeing.

[SOPS]

And this poster has spent the last 100 months ( plus) in the left hand seat of the Boeing to 92 hours a month, every month.

[allaru]

So work your ass off to get your command to get 10perc more than an FO.

CAPT
41240/92 = 448dhs/hr

FO
29145/70 = 416dhs/hr

That sounds fair enough.

[harry the cod]

falconeasydriver

Yep, that will work. Just like it's now working for the cabin crew with punitive measures being enforced. Keeping pressing that 2 matey and we'll be next. :ugh:

If you're knackered, us a a bloody fatigue report.

allaru

Ever thought of getting a job for the government. Statistics are a wonderful tool when you input figures of your choosing. Same hours worked and the figures become 448 against 316. That's 30% straight off. I've not even included flying pay differences. Not many F/O's doing only 70 hours each month nowadays on the B777. Still, if you'd rather keep with your numbers, feel free to stay in the right seat. Plenty who'll be willing to trade up....even for your 10%!

Harry

[BigGeordie]

I reckon we will be next anyway. If they can do it to 19,000 cabin crew adding 3,000 pilots will be easy.

[falconeasydriver]

Harry, what makes you think I'm not one of the chosen ones that has to report to the headmasters office when I press 2? or indeed I do it as a matter of course to cover my own backside?
"rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools'''
FWIW, I use this option when I need too, my health both physically and mentally takes priority over anything else.
Oh yeah, and I have filled in fatigue reports, only to get an email either telling me that the "mirror men" are looking into it, or better yet, reminding me to fill in a fatigue report.

[falconeasydriver]

Doing this is one thing. Bragging about it on a forum monitored by the 'mirror men' you have referred to is another.

Im sorry Brokken'you appear to have lost me, where did I Bragg about pressing 2?
I MERELY stated an option that is available. I then went on clarify my comments as to how they relate to my physical and emotional well being, or are you suggesting that I operate outside the bounds of the OMA because I'm intimidated? perhaps for you going to work when you are unfit is a preferable option rather than having to explain and justify your actions, but for me, I have and can justify my attendance/sickness record.
As for the mirror men, they are exactly that, always looking into it....

[JammedStab]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm still not sure I got the answer I was looking for or perhaps I didn't read the responses properly.

Lets assume that you are scheduled for 90 hours for a particular month(no sim or gs) and it turns out that your flight times ended up exactly as scheduled. Much of that flying is long haul where a portion of the flights will be spent resting which turns out to be 15 hours. Is that rest period part of the 90 hours you had scheduled.

I have been told by someone(which may very well be inaccurate) that your 90 scheduled hours didn't include the rest time.

[SOPS]

Well, for example, I have all two crew flights this month, I have no bunk time, I'm rostered for 91.55 hours. That's it, 91.55 in the seat. As I spent about 1 hour holding for fog the other day, it's actually more than rostered. I won't get paid for that.

[cerbus]

Just like you don't get paid for sick time, vacation time and Distance Learning as has been pointed out on these pages.
92 hours in the seat. It will come to a point where you will be rostered 115 flying hours but with the Factoring you will get credit for 92 hours.
This has to end but unfortunately I don't know where or how.

[harry the cod]

JammedStab

I think GURU on page 1 explained it all perfectly.

Just so that you're aware, if you do a ULR, you'll get paid for the full duty regardless of bunk time. However, you only get credited with half the flight 'stick' time when you augment. So, for example, a flight from DXB to LAX has 4 crew (2 Captains & 2 F/O's). One crew will be the operating crew out, the other will operate back. The operating crew are basically the ones who do the take off and landing and half the flight. The augment crew do the cruise portion only. Say the flight is blocked at 16 hours both ways, then all crew get 32 hours flight pay for this trip but only 24 hours credit for actual flying hours.

This is known as 'factoring'. It was initiated by the GCAA to ensure cadets or low hour pilots could not use bunk time to count towards hours for upgrade. In a rather unusual and somewhat surprising move, Emirates have interpreted the rules and regulations differently.

Much like crew report times, ULR definitions......etc.....etc.....

Hope this explains it!

Harry

[irish777]

Does that mean you can disadvantage yourself for upgrade by doing lots of ULRs? Is the 2500 hour requirement actually stick time?

[Transformers]

Seems to be 2 roster systems or 2 sides of the the fence here, I myself have be doing 92 hours/month over the last few years and I talk to many guys who fly an average 70 hours. Reading between the lines, I think they put you into 2 brackets that if they expect you to leave the company between 3-10 years they work you hard and if your a Life timer you get an average roster of 70 hours and other perks (which is a different subject all together)...!

One thing for sure if you like Night Flying and dont mind sleeping during the day, jump on board and see how long your Journey will last................!

Hello Recovery, Keep Tomorrow (Free)........!

[allaru]

Harry

"Plenty who'll be willing to trade up....even for your 10%!"

Exactly and that's how they get away with it. There was a short time when 777s FOs were doing 90+ but now most I work with are back to 80ish.

We are a per hour commodity, end of story, and the FOs have always flown less than the Captains. The companies pay rates relate mainly to their ability or inability to get the people they need, and thus its the FOs salary that is the determining factor. The challenge from then on is to get as many hours for as little as possible, thus the reason Captains have ALWAYS flown more. It makes the Captains cheaper, as we are a per hour commodity. And they know that people will do the work and change seats for free if that was the only option.

It the same reason why the salaries are not a lot different at Air Arabia and Fly Dubai, as if they were paid any less no one would come, AND pilots would always choose to fly the bigger aircraft at EK for free if given the choice. And to all the narrow body guys...it ain't the same, and nor are the experience requirements for that reason.

You'll find that our mates down the road and in Qatar do a similar trick.

I would be happy to work for 10000dhs per month, for which I will give them one flying hour.

Back to the topic..in my opinion the hours situation is only going to get worse as more aircraft arrive, and the numbers of pilots they expect to join don't.

[Capt. Flamingo]

JammedStab,

It all depends on how many days in the month, bidding preferences, fleet, seat, rostering team's mercy, etc.

Rosters will be produced in order to achieve maximum productivity but without exceeding it, because they don't want to pay overtime. Productivity thresholds are as follows:

-Months with 31 days: 92 block hours.
-Months with 30 days: 89 block hours.
-Months with 29 days: 86 block hours.
-Months with 28 days: 83 block hours.

So based on the above a January roster will be aimed to have 91:55 block hours (being the case for most Capts and some FOs), a February roster will be aimed to have 82:55 block hours, and so on.

For now the scheduled block equals "credit", credit is what you are getting paid per block hour, so if your trip has 20 hours block time then you are getting 20 hours credit (flight pay). At the same time if you are doing an ULR you get paid for the whole block time of the trip (regardless if augmenting or not), also if you are deadheading you get credit for the whole planned block time of the flight you are deadheading on (that being in EK or any other airline). If you are called for sim support you get 5:30 credit hours; so the governing factor while rostering is the credit hours, because again, they don't want to pay overtime. Important to say also that ground duties, PPC recurrent, leave, etc don't incur in any credit (i.e. you don't get paid for those) so you might have a 92 hours roster plus some kind of training.

To answer your question. If you like bidding for freighters then you might end up with a very low "stick time" but with lots of credit hours from all the deadheading involved, you will still be paid the whole block hours of your trips but since you deadheaded in half of them then only stick time goes in your logbook and only stick time goes towards the 100 per month/ 900 per year limit.

Same thing happens with ULR flying. Let's say in Feb you end up with 2 ULRs of 30 hours block each, and the rest of the roster is two pilots flights all of them adding 22:55 therefore making up the productivity threshold of 83 hours for a 28 days month. In this example you will get paid 82:55 hours but the company will only take 52:55 hours as stick time "factoring"(82:55-30 hours of augmenting from the ULR trips), so even though you are required to be all this time in the airplane your monthly and yearly stick time hours will be low allowing the company to use you more. I must add that all the ULR block hours are considered for the upgrade experience requirements, so doing many ULRs wont hurt you in that aspect.

Whatever the case you will be in an airplane for a long time each month, if you are looking for less stick time then bid for freighters because all the deadheading chews up into the productivity thresholds.

Hope this helps

[ATIS]

Would it be right to assume the A380 is the better fleet to be on?

At the moment I'm only eligible for A330 so building up my hours.

Thanks

[Desert Camel]

Montencee, I agree, SEP, CRM, etc... should carry some sort of credit in our monthly hours... Doing 92 hours + training of some sort is not good.


Same for leave.

[SOPS]

A cadet I flew with told me that they were only being rostered for 65 hours a month, 'to keep them happy' . As I did not see his actual roster, I don't know if that was true or not. I suppose a roster search on the portal would show the truth, until that is taken away from us as well.

[harry the cod]

Now that IS a wind up if ever I heard one. I think that cadet was pulling your chain. Having said that, I do know that their attendance record is poorer than average. Whether they get called in for a discussion is another matter.

If the Company were to employ them on 65 hours and offer overtime above that, it would be a very clear case of racial discrimination. The extra 'salary' they get is from the government. Flying hours is from the Company so would expose itself to possible court action. Maybe not here in Dubai but elsewhere if you chose to create a scene. It would not make for a good read in the Mail On Sunday centre spread and EK know that.

I flew with a local just recently and having seen his roster, can assure you that he's rostered just the same busy month as the rest of us mere mortals. I know it's Thursday evening but easy on the vino fellas!

Harry

[fatbus]

They are experts at the use of "2" but also get called in on it . They just don't seem to care. Their rosters are visible to anyone who cares to look.

[CamelRustler]

I am with Harry on this one. They do get better rosters on my fleet simply because they are super senior. But they do fly as much as the other FO's. I have heard however they are 70% of all sick calls. That I do believe. Rarely will a cadet put up with a midnight India in monsoons.

[JammedStab]

OK, I finally got a clear answer on a different thread...

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/555866-nil-requirement-log-bunk-time-what-does-your-caa-do-you.html

"Those operators who cry foul over the uneven playing ground to be found in some airlines seven hours east of London may just have a bit more fuel for their fire. The regulator (GCAA) in the UAE, home to at least a couple of 'world class' operators, have elected to change the logging of flight time and duty.

Notably, any time spent resting in the bunk counts for precisely zero hours towards the 28 day and annual total flying hour limits (currently 100 and 900 block hours respectively.) Previously as operating crew, these bunk hours counted in full toward the limits, though as augmenting crew only 'stick' time counted. The limits will remain at 100 and 900 hours, but the new change ensures that neither operating nor augmenting pilots will log those resting hours.

For example, for the two sectors DXB-LAX-DXB, an actual block time of 31 hours gets recorded as approximately 17 hours only. The upshot being that more flights per month can be squeezed into the same 100hr limit, and more per year can be squeezed into the same 900hr limit."

[kingpost]

Gents, you've miss read the regulation, it states that:

The duration of the flight rest time is not to be included in the flight time cumulative limits, but will be included in the Flight Duty Period Duty Time for cumulative limits consideration.

The cumulative limits are:
(b) The maximum cumulative duty hours for Flight crew of an aeroplane shall not exceed;
(1) 55 hours in one week, but may be increased to 60 hours, when rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays.
(2) 95 hours in any 2 consecutive weeks, and;
(3) 190 hours in any 4 consecutive weeks.
(4) 2000 Hours in 12 consecutive months

It still counts towards the Absolute Limits on Flying Hours, so this intact actually suits us - it does away with factoring. We'll now have to work from blocks off to blocks on!!!

[lowstandard]

The way I understand their wording is that the GCAA is now separating
flight time cumulative limits and Flight Duty Period Time for cumulative limits consideration.

Meaning that you only get stick time credit towards your flight time limits
(100 hrs per month and 900 per year)
within the boundaries of the following duty periods (The maximum cumulative duty hours for Flight crew of an aeroplane shall not exceed blah blah blah)

Cumulative duty hours includes bunk and stick time. Cumulative flight time is just stick time towards absolute flying hours.

Soon we will have to subtract time in the toilet as well, please make a note on the VR.

[346Heavy]

I think it pilot nature to just complain...if we don't fly much we complain and if we fly too much we still complain.....i wonder where is the sweet spot?? whats just right?

[fatbus]

Just for fun - how us the profit share calculated !

[346Heavy]

The Big boys get about 80% and they share the change

[skysx33]

Roster change .... My Turnaround was taken out , I was reaching 100hrs in last 28 days ....
CU instead ..... Stand By Sim support !!

Looking for plan B , that's the straw that break the camel back !

A Crash only will change things ..... Just questin of time !