View Full Version : BBC's Greatest Turning Points in Aviation

20th Jan 2015, 00:20
BBC does a quick primer on aviation history interspersed with the cost of one-way ticket air fares London - New York:

BBC - Future - Infographic: The greatest turning points in aviation (http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150119-great-turning-points-in-aviation)

20th Jan 2015, 06:45
BBC does a quick primer on aviation historyBoeing 707: First jet-powered transatlantic flight. :ugh:

joy ride
20th Jan 2015, 07:56
Comment added to their Facepalm page!

Mind you, an American friend and I argued which was first, Comet or B707, his response was that Comet had some crashes so it does not count!

20th Jan 2015, 08:56
his response was that Comet had some crashes so it does not count!

What sort of logic is that? It was the Comet 4 that has the distinction of being the first jet airliner to enter commercial service across the Atlantic. None of them (Comet 4s) crashed.......


20th Jan 2015, 11:41
What sort of logic that?

US-centric logic.:ok:

20th Jan 2015, 12:08
Mind you, an American friend and I argued which was first, Comet or B707, his response was that Comet had some crashes so it does not count!
If anyone used that logic then the Wright brothers wouldn't count as they had a few crashes as well.

20th Jan 2015, 12:39
The first jet-powered transatlantic flight was in fact a Canberra in Feb 1951.. On 21 February 1951, an RAF English Electric Canberra B Mk 2 (serial number WD932) flown by Squadron Leader A Callard of the A&AEE, flew from Aldergrove Northern Ireland, to Gander, Newfoundland. The flight covered almost 1,800 nautical miles (3,300 km) in 4h 37 m. The aircraft was being flown to the U.S. to act as a pattern aircraft for the Martin B-57 Canberra.
Photo here (http://static.thisdayinaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/tdia//2012/08/1341x1075xEnglish-Electric-Canberra-B.II-signed-by-W.F.-Gibb2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.5RWi7_LlSu.jpg).

20th Jan 2015, 13:40
The first jet-powered transatlantic flight was in fact a Canberra in Feb 1951.

No, it wasn't.

The first jet to fly non-stop across the Atlantic was an F-84E which flew from Manston to Limestone, ME in September 1950.

The Canberra in 1951 was the first to do so without in-flight refuelling.

joy ride
20th Jan 2015, 13:51
Oops, like a lot of "Firsts" the claim should be fully defined ..... I should have written jet AIRLINER!

28th Jan 2015, 20:21
As the birth of the Spitfire is mentioned I would expect the establishment of the Sopwith Co. with a likely mention!

The 707 is mentioned as the first succesfull jet airliner, wich shouldn't be debateable :-/

29th Jan 2015, 07:12
The BBC have obviously changed it following the outcry.

joy ride
29th Jan 2015, 07:26
Despite the first B of BBC standing for British, nowadays they seem to glean a lot of news and information from US sources, and aim their output squarely at the US. This seems to me to be a classic example. Nowadays on their News site prices are routinely quoted in $ even if the news item is nothing to do with US.

29th Jan 2015, 07:53
The first jet to fly non-stop across the Atlantic was an F-84E which flew from Manston to Limestone, ME in September 1950.

Thanks for that Dave - that was new to me.:ok:

29th Jan 2015, 09:15
Thanks for posting that - lovely graphics.

I do think, though, that many of the claims on that page need clarification (or should that be 'qualification'?) - they could rightly be disputed.

In all, from our lofty perch up here on Cloud Prune, it could be called 'Aviation History for Numpties'.

29th Jan 2015, 18:04
I remember a RDAF pilot comparish the F84 and the Hawker Hunter with the words: The Hunter flew like it looked: Slick like a hot knife through butter, where piloting the F84 was like sitting atop a haystack!
Poor pilot who had to fly the non-stop Atlantic crossing: He might have been exhausted :-o

29th Jan 2015, 21:36
Regarding a comparo between the Hunter vs. the Thunderjet, it should be remembered that the Thunderjet was introduced in 1947, seven years before the Hunter's introduction in 1954. Wing loading on a F-84G was 70 lb/ft squared, vs. a Hunter F.6 with a wing loading of 51.6 lb/ft squared.

She (the F-84) was a bit of a dog, but the F-84 was reputed to be a stable gun platform, and despite the "hot" landing speeds, the Thunderjet was easy to fly on instruments, and crosswinds did not present much of a problem. They could carry up to 4,450 lbs of rockets and bombs, or one Mk.7 nuclear bomb.

The first aircraft operated by The U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds was the F-84G Thunderjet, from 1953 to 1955. They upgraded to the swept wing model F-84F Thunderstreak in 1955, and operated the type until 1956. The F-84E was also flown by the Skyblazers team of United States Air Forces Europe (USAFE) from 1950 to 1955.

As previously mentioned by DaveReidUK, On 22 September 1950, two EF-84Es, flown by David C. Schilling and Col. William Ritchie, flew across the North Atlantic from Great Britain to the United States. Ritchie's aircraft ran out of fuel over Newfoundland but the other jet successfully made the crossing which took ten hours two minutes and three aerial refuelings. The flight demonstrated that large numbers of fighters could be rapidly moved across the Atlantic.

On 20 August 1953, 17 F-84Gs using aerial refueling flew from the United States to the United Kingdom. The 4,485-mile (3,900 nmi, 7,220 km) journey was the longest-ever
nonstop flight by jet fighters.

1,972 Hunters were built. 7,524 F-84s of all variants were built, over half going to NATO countries.


Krystal n chips
30th Jan 2015, 06:00
I don't suppose Didcot cooling towers counts then ?

30th Jan 2015, 07:17
Relying totally on my very fallible few remaining grey cells, but wasn't the 1st jet flight across the Atlantic done by RAF Vampire's?

30th Jan 2015, 07:22
That didn't take long. A Giggle of 'DH Vampire Atlantic' produced this from Wiki:

On 14 July 1948, six Vampire F.3s of No. 54 Squadron RAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._54_Squadron_RAF) became the first jet aircraft to fly across the Atlantic Ocean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean) when they arrived in Goose Bay, Labrador (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrador). They went via Stornoway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stornoway_Airport) in the Outer Hebrides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Hebrides) of Scotland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland), Keflavik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keflavik) in Iceland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland) and Bluie West 1, Greenland. From Goose Bay airfield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Goose_Bay) they went on to Montreal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal) (c. 3,000 mi/4,830 km) to start the RAF’s annual goodwill tour of Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) and the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) where they gave formation aerobatic displays.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire#cite_note-15)

At the same time, USAF Colonel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_%28United_States%29) David C. Schilling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_C._Schilling) led a group of F-80 Shooting Stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-80_Shooting_Star) flying to Fürstenfeldbruck Air Base (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCrstenfeldbruck_Air_Base) in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) to relieve a unit based there. There were conflicting reports later regarding competition between the RAF and USAF to be the first to fly the Atlantic. One report said the USAF squadron delayed completion of its movement to allow the Vampires to be "the first jets across the Atlantic".[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDorr1998119-16) Another said that the Vampire pilots celebrated “winning the race against the rival F-80s.”[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire#cite_note-17)

joy ride
30th Jan 2015, 07:55
"History" now seems to be determined by the nationality of those who write it. It used to hang on "who won the battle".

Genghis the Engineer
30th Jan 2015, 08:39
"Now"? It always was.

And all historians will concentrate upon the bits of a story that matter to their interests. To, for example, a social historian the only interesting part of this conversation is when you could cross the Atlantic, and what it cost.


30th Jan 2015, 10:22
Too many stops. Personally, I want to see a civilian jetliner with a Heathrow to JFK time, non-stop, attached to a Mach number of .92. 1954.. ? ain't gonna happen.. 1955? 1956? 1957?..

Avro Jetliner? Canadians were pretty good...

30th Jan 2015, 10:37
Interesting thread. So far, three "firsts" identified:

First jet across the Atlantic
First jet non-stop across the Atlantic
First jet non-stop, unrefuelled across the Atlantic

30th Jan 2015, 10:44
The Vampire trip is well documented!

1948 | 1135 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%201135.html)

I (http://www.3bktj.co.uk/wood10.htm)

The 'I' above is a link!

30th Jan 2015, 10:51
History writers strive to be factual. Facts are a historian's "reason d'etre". If RAF Vampires crossed the Atlantic with three stops, so be it it. Recorded. Fact. Just give me dates, times and provenance. Love the Vampire by the way...

RCAF Vampire:

joy ride
30th Jan 2015, 19:16
Evansb wrote:

History writers strive to be factual. Facts are a historian's "reason d'etre".

I think your sentence should start with the word "Good" !

Sadly a lot of history is coloured or even falsified by national pride. In my opinion powerful nations tend to have the most pride and are the ones most prone to promote their nationalistically-coloured version of history. The Romans did it when they were powerful, Britain did it when it was powerful. Now other countries have the power and I think it is important that we study good, fact based history. Sadly I do not think the BBC has done so here.

Allan Lupton
30th Jan 2015, 22:22
History is often said to be written by the winners.
Today, when we in the UK have been marking 50 years since Churchill's funeral it seems apposite to remember that Churchill once said of Stanley Baldwin, in the House of Commons. ‘History will say that the right honourable gentleman was wrong. I know it will, because I shall write the history.’

30th Jan 2015, 23:05
Come on - don't you know the aphorism?

"History is written by the victors."

31st Jan 2015, 00:10
Despite the first B of BBC standing for British

B is for Bolshevik, ( Russian: “One of the Majority”) , plural Bolsheviks, or Bolsheviki, member of a wing of the Russian Social-Democratic Workers' Party, which, led by Lenin, seized control of the government in Russia (October 1917) and became the dominant political power.

2nd Feb 2015, 14:39
The Vampire looks beautifull calm in the air.
Recently I came past this picture, on wich the Vampire looks almost like floating on/in the air: