Operate VH-reg Yak in Europe

[maehhh]

Gentlemen,

looking for some advice / experience / tips for further research.

I know there a quite a few Yaks flying in Australia. Now what I'd love to do is operate a VH-regstired Yak in Europe. Provided the European NAA allows this, what will probably stop me? Finding a CASA LAME in Europe?

Anyone experienced with a simliar story? Any hint is highly appreciated. :ok:

Cheers
maehhh

[LeadSled]

Finding a CASA LAME in Europe?

MAEHHH,
For private operations, there is nothing fundamentally stopping you.

I am aware that, in several cases (in which I have been involved) CASA has approved the use of a EASA Part 145 to carry out maintenance on a small VH- registered aircraft, based "temporally" in an EC country, and CASA gave approval for the owner/operator of the aircraft to produce and issue the Maintenance Release.

This was pre the McCormick era, so I am not so certain CASA would now be as accommodating, in exercising a sensible interpretation of their own rules.

Tootle pip!!

[djpil]

It would surprise me if they permitted VH registered in Experimental or Limited category.

[Squawk7700]

Permits can be obtained to operate experimental OS, but the requirements vary for each country.

I was thinking John Johansen's RV must have been ABAA, prior to experimental coming about otherwise he would have experienced quite a few issues.

Limited suffers similar issues.


Why the desire to do this? A Russian built Aircraft operating in Europe with Australian rego? Reminds me of when I see a Japanese built Subaru WRX registered in Victoria Australia with European style number plates.

[maehhh]

G'day everyone

first of all thanks for all the replies!

Why the desire to do this? A Russian built Aircraft operating in Europe with Australian rego? Reminds me of when I see a Japanese built Subaru WRX registered in Victoria Australia with European style number plates.

At the moment it can be a quite costly and complicated journey to get a Yak on an European registration apparently due to some bureaucratic hurdles. While it is not impossible I am just trying to evaluate all my options. VH-reg would be interesting since I am an Australian resident but currently working in Europe. I am planning to return to Oz within the next 2 years so the aircraft will end up being VH-registered at some point anyway :suspect:

[Andy_RR]

...since I am an Australian resident but currently working in Europe. I am planning to return to Oz within the next 2 years so the aircraft will end up being VH-registered at some point anyway :suspect:

You mean citizen? If you're working in Europe chances are you won't be resident in Australia (without telling porkies and half-truths) which effectively bars you from being listed on the VH register, doesn't it?

Wouldn't you be better off looking at registration via a company in some former soviet-bloc, now EU country? The Czech Republic or Lithuania are two that spring to mind. I also know that a Romanian registered LET-something-or-other operated out of Headcorn for meat bombing duties.

[LeadSled]

MAEHH,
You will have all the same hoopla with local Permits to Fly in UK ( and most western EC countries are worse) regardless of what register it is on, if it doesn't have a Standard cat. C.of A.
If you are acquiring the aircraft anywhere in Europe, take advice as to which register is the best of the EASA countries, and put it in VH- when you come home.
Tootle pip!!

[rnuts]

Have you thought about an N registered machine ??
If have seen quite a few in Europe and Australia.
Maintenance wise for experimental or limited all you need is someone with an A&P licence. :ok:

[Up-into-the-air]

Been looking, but has not popped up in Aviation Trader yet!!

[maehhh]

Gentlemen,

thanks for your input. There was a lot of useful stuff and I will consider it carefully :ok:

[LeadSled]

Have you thought about an N registered machine ??
If have seen quite a few in Europe and Australia.
Maintenance wise for experimental or limited all you need is someone with an A&P licence. :ok:Folks,

In general, Special Certificates of Airworthiness are not valid outside the area of the NAA that issued the certificate. Any operator of such an aircraft will need the express permission of any other NAA, to operate their aircraft in that NAA's territory.

Australia giving permission permission for such operations is very variable. ie; If it is a new Boeing aircraft on a development/sales tour, no problem, if it is an N registered (or any other rego.) "warbird", don't hold your breath, unless it is here specifically for an airshow like Avalon.

Tootle pip!!

[rnuts]

I didn't mention that I do have an N registered experimental aircraft here in OZ. :ok:

[Blowie]

"I do have an N registered experimental aircraft here in OZ"

Ssshhh!!...

[rnuts]

Dammit... I meant I know someone who has one !! :ugh:

[Andy_RR]

It's OK because you said you didn't mention it...

[LeadSled]

I didn't mention that I do have an N registered experimental aircraft here in OZ. :ok:

rnuts,
Please consider your position very carefully, the penalties for flying an aircraft without a valid C.of A or agreement of CASA to operate this aircraft in Australia are draconian, including substantial opportunities to become a guest of the Government for a number of years.

On the other hand, you will subsequently save a lot on international travel, because many countries will bar you from entry, including US, Canada and many EEC countries --- and you will save money on ASIC cards, as you will not get one.

Tootle pip!!

[Old Akro]

It seems to be relatively common to operate aircraft in Europe as N-registered. It's certainly a lot easier to find FAA mechanics than CASA LAME's. If you bring it back to Aus, you can continue to operate it as N-reg.

[LeadSled]

It seems to be relatively common to operate aircraft in Europe as N-registered.Oldakro,
Firstly, all those N registered aircraft are normal FAR 23 or FAR 25 aircraft, not "Experimental" or "Limited" category --- without the express permission ( usually something which is, effectively, the same permit to fly as you would get for a local registered aircraft) of the local NAA.

Secondly, in the last two years, EEC/EASA have been making it much harder, particularly if the aircraft are "executive jets" or similar.

In the US (in broad terms) executive transport comes under FAR Part 91, but EEC regards the same operations as "public transport", roughly as per FAR Part 135.

Tootle pip!!

[M-ONGO]

Lead

Who told you that? A private cat flight is a private cat flight. I fly a bizjet in Europe for a private organisation, using my FAA certificates. EASA are trying to make it mandatory that crews have EASA equivalent licences to operate though, maybe that's what you'd heard?

The OP needs to get in touch with Richard Goode aerobatics, a Yak importer. He can advise you.

[Old Akro]

Leadie

Recently I had a peripheral involvement with a Belgium based GA organisation that was a registered company in Delaware USA and operated an N-reg charter GA fleet using a french based FAA licensed maintenance organisation.

EASA might not like it, but I would have guessed the Chicago convention entrenches the right to do that.

[rnuts]

Leadie.
Geez mate, you obviously like a bit of drama.:rolleyes:
I do have a permit from CASA to operate my N registered aircraft in Oz.
It has to be renewed annually and it was no problem to obtain as long as you have a good reason as to why you're keeping said aircraft on a foreign register.
:ok:

[outofwhack]

As long as you are operating the VH aircraft in a ICAO contracting state then our CAR 42ZD 2b applies

2) A person may carry out maintenance on an Australian aircraft outside Australian territory if:

B. if the aircraft is in a Contracting State--the person would be permitted under the law of the Contracting State to carry out the maintenance if the aircraft were registered in the Contracting state


And no special permit required from either country.... For private ops at least.

Oow

[LeadSled]

EASA are trying to make it mandatory that crews have EASA equivalent licences to operate though, maybe that's what you'd heard? M-ONGO,
Not "what I have heard", but what I have had some involvement, never underestimate the ability of the Brussels bureaucracy to stuff things up.
As I have already mentioned, a major part of the problem is FAA private operations are not necessarily recognised as private in EASA land, but public transport.


Recently I had a peripheral involvement with a Belgium based GA organisation that was a registered company in Delaware USA and operated an N-reg charter GA fleet using a french based FAA licensed maintenance organisation.

EASA might not like it, but I would have guessed the Chicago convention entrenches the right to do that. Old Akro,
Re. maintenance, that is the equivalent of using an FAA approved facility anywhere. As you probably know, the "Delaware Corporation" is for US domestic tax purposes.
The Chicago Convention covers international air transport, any sovereign nation chooses to observe ICAO SOPs for domestic operations at the political policy discretion of the country. The situation you describe is rather interesting, I wonder how they manage that, most EASA countries in western Europe are very stick about other than the occasional "foreign" (non-EASA) registered aircraft being used on a local AOC (by whatever name)
Sadly, just like Australia, there is a lot of "we know best" in the EEC approach to US aviation. That US private (as we understand it) FAR 91 executive jet operations actually have better safety records than any European equivalent operations under a public transport AOC ( and FAR 135, for that matter) does not make the slightest difference to the local "thinking".

mnuts,
Indeed an interesting situation. My replies to you were based on the fact that I spend too much time with permits to fly for foreign (usually N) registered aircraft that do NOT have a standard/normal cat. C.of A.
In my experience, the aircraft involved are in Australia for a specific purpose, as I mentioned. Then, and only then, CASA may or may not cooperate, in the case of some specific scientific research, heavy political pressure had to be visited on CASA, for the research flights to go ahead.
I would think your situation is virtually unique, best of luck.

There are a number of cases of "flying and unregistered aircraft" and "flying an aircraft without a valid C.of A", where the aircraft was an import in the FAA Experimental Amateur Built cat., and the aircraft flew before the paperwork was complete, it was a very expensive exercise, in each case. In each case, of which I am aware, the owners thought it "would be OK" because the FAA paperwork was still valid.

Tootle pip!!

[maehhh]

outofwhak,

that's an very interesting hint thank you. I will do further research on this!

As long as you are operating the VH aircraft in a ICAO contracting state then our CAR 42ZD 2b applies

2) A person may carry out maintenance on an Australian aircraft outside Australian territory if:

B. if the aircraft is in a Contracting State--the person would be permitted under the law of the Contracting State to carry out the maintenance if the aircraft were registered in the Contracting state


And no special permit required from either country.... For private ops at least.

[LeadSled]

maehh,
Maintenance was never going to be your major problem ( but you do need a formal arrangement with CASA to produce an Australian MR -- after the local MRO has done the required) but legally flying an aircraft that DOES NOT have a standard/normal cat. C.of A.
Don't get hung up about maintenance.
As I have tried to explain, under normal circumstances, an Australian Experimental or Limited certificate is not valid outside Australia, without the express permission of the national aviation authority(s) involved.

Taking a (say) VH- Yak 52 to Europe is too hard/expensive.

Buying same in EU and putting it on the Australia register in EU is too hard/expensive.

The $$$ cost of either of the above would be frightening -- unless money doesn't matter.

The cheapest option, if you are determined to be an owner of such an aircraft, is to acquire one in EU, then sell it or bring it home after your stint in Europe is finished.

[maehhh]

LeadSlep,

thanks again for your input.

As I have tried to explain, under normal circumstances, an Australian Experimental or Limited certificate is not valid outside Australia, without the express permission of the national aviation authority(s) involved.

I understand that that I need a permission from the local NAA to (privately) operate a VH-limited in their airspace, however this permission is regularly granted for a lot of N-reg experimental-exhibition aircraft over here. No costs involved, permission is valid for one year and can be renewed afterwards. Based on this I would expect that obtaining such a permission will be possible for a VH-limited too.


The $$$ cost of either of the above would be frightening -- unless money doesn't matter.

Please help me out and give me a hint what exactly makes it cost prohibitive if in fact maintenance is not the major issue.


The cheapest option, if you are determined to be an owner of such an aircraft, is to acquire one in EU, then sell it or bring it home after your stint in Europe is finished.

This is certainly my preferred option! However costs involved to get this specific aircraft on a European register will be around 35k AUD + a lot of bureaucratic hurdles to jump through due to a mandatory SB exclusive to EASA-land. I'd be willing to invest this money however getting ones hands on the required modification kit is very very difficult at the moment. So I am not exactly sure if it really is the cheapest option.


Cheers
maehhh

[djpil]

Similar discussion elsewhere with some useful info:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/555255-flying-g-reg-experimentals-europe.html

[LeadSled]

Please help me out and give me a hint what exactly makes it cost prohibitive if in fact maintenance is not the major issue.
maehhh,
How about the cost of at least two visits by an approved person flown up from Australia, firstly to inspect the aircraft, and the second time, to issue the certificate.

About AUD $7-8000 for Premium Economy, if the said person will travel in that class, much more if they insist on business.

Plus time and expenses, it all adds up very quickly. It is rare for only one visit to be required to issue the certificate.

If it happens to be an aircraft that requires a type rating, and you don't already have one, that is also a cost issue, you will need a CASA approved person, if it comes in the Limited Cat. in Australia, you will be dealing with Australian Warbirds Association Ltd, and you will need to comply with all their bumpf, including negotiating an approved system of maintenance, it is aeroplane specific for all Limited (or Experimental/ Exhibition and negotiate with CASA) aircraft.

As for the SB specific to EASA, make certain CASA does not require some
/all of them.

It might work out easier and cheaper to initially put it on the N- register, but that is no longer straight forward for a non-US national.

Tootle pip!!

[maehhh]

maehhh,
How about the cost of at least two visits by an approved person flown up from Australia, firstly to inspect the aircraft, and the second time, to issue the certificate.

About AUD $7-8000 for Premium Economy, if the said person will travel in that class, much more if they insist on business.

Plus time and expenses, it all adds up very quickly. It is rare for only one visit to be required to issue the certificate.


Hi LeadSled,

certainly points to consider! I rather thought about shipping it to Oz get it inspected/certified/whatevernecessary over there and then bring it back to Europe. However I guess the shipping costs will be in a similar price range.



If it comes in the Limited Cat. in Australia, you will be dealing with Australian Warbirds Association Ltd, and you will need to comply with all their bumpf, including negotiating an approved system of maintenance, it is aeroplane specific for all Limited (or Experimental/ Exhibition and negotiate with CASA) aircraft.


Ok that's some important advice. Will further research.


It might work out easier and cheaper to initially put it on the N- register, but that is no longer straight forward for a non-US national.


Agreed, this is plan C. It is as well somewhat complicated , however there is a lot more information about the N-reg scenario out there which makes it a little easier. It will however require the aircraft to be shipped to the US initially to get the certificate. So we are talking about 10.000$ minimum as well.

Cheers
maehhh

[Old Akro]

however require the aircraft to be shipped to the US initially to get the certificate

No.

I have recently been flying an aircraft in Thailand which came from Belgium. Whilst located in Belgium it was transferred from D registration to N registration. The CofA work for this was done by Rectimo aviation in France who have FAA mechanics, etc.

You will however, need a US address or entity to own the aircraft. This seems to be commonly done through Delaware based shelf companies.

[maehhh]

The CofA work for this was done by Rectimo aviation in France who have FAA mechanics, etc.

Hi Old Akro

to my very best knowledge this is the critical point. The Yak will not have an CoA but needs to registered as Experimental Exhibition. I was informed that in order to dothis it has to be in the US initially.

[Blowie]

maehhh

Some Yak models are type-certificated in some EU countries, so why not talk to Richard Goode and ask if he can find you an aircraft that's already operating in Europe, then buy that one and do your European flying in it.

When you bring it home to Oz, re-register VH- and apply for an experimental certificate for exhibition under CASR 21.191(d), or go to Warbirds for Limited Category if you intend doing adventure flights.

You'd probably need to get some sort of Eu licence conversion, but that ought to be way cheaper than paying the shipping, certification and maintenance costs that have been discussed on this thread.

Good luck, Blowie

[Old Akro]

I was informed that in order to dothis it has to be in the US initially.

I don't believe it has to be physically in the US. You just need a guy with US signing authority.

[maehhh]

Blowie,
thanks for your input!
I have been (and still am) in contact with Richard but the Yak54s are a rare species. :{



Old Akro,

I will doublecheck this, I just got the contact information of a FAA approved DAR forwarded. Lets see ;)

[PhillC]

How about the cost of at least two visits by an approved person flown up from Australia, firstly to inspect the aircraft, and the second time, to issue the certificate.
A cheaper option would be to use someone already in Europe, who has the necessary Instruments of Appointment to issue CASA CofAs. Try here: Paper Planes (http://paper-planes.com.au)

Edit: Although I guess maybe not if the aircraft won't have a CofA. I'd still contact Michael at Paper Planes for some advice.

[maehhh]

PhillC,

thanks for this link it could turn out most helpful. :ok: