DC-8 engine starter buttons

[edetroit]

A quick technical question. Are the blue starter buttons on the DC-8 pulled or pushed for engine start……and do they light up like the DC-10 engine start buttons please?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/edetroit100/dc8starters_zpse17130cb.jpg

[PJ2]

edetroit;

push in, magnetically-held until starter-cutout. Found on the early '8s, the 40 series with the Conways, etc

[edetroit]

Thankyou very much PJ2.

I'm now thinking they do not light up when pushed in until starter cutout.?

[No Fly Zone]

I thought one had to push the button AND turn the key at the same time. Whoops. Sorry, that was some fussy old Ford that I had decades ago. Never mind.:p

More seriously, I think PJ2 has it right and no, no light behind the button.

[edetroit]

Yes I agree ….not so sure about "only early 8's"

This is a '63

Photos: McDonnell Douglas DC-8-63(F) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/FIA---First/McDonnell-Douglas-DC-8-63(F)/0507090/L/&sid=a9b26de0461a55e86e84384edd0bde26)

[pattern_is_full]

Interesting - I thought they were pull-to-start on the DC-10/MD-11 and B717(ex-MD-95).

But that is just my memory from a video viewed several years ago.

[No Fly Zone]

That is a great picture, but I sure hope it was taken aboard a 'retired' airframe. It is a bit sad to see any panel in that condition.:sad:

[edetroit]

My photo is from a DC-8 sim.

[edetroit]

Negative.

As PJ2 said "push in, magnetically-held until starter-cutout"

The difference between the the DC-10 and DC-8 being: In the DC-10 the starter button lights up to indicate the starter valve is open…..whereas on the DC-8 the starter valve open light is on the engineers panel.

So to answer my own question the starter buttons on the DC-8 do NOT light up.

However on the B717 it would appear "pull out, magnetically-held until starter-cutout"

edit: I have just watched my DC-8 videos again. Some have starter toggle switches, some starter buttons…..but on both the pilot operating them does not let go.

Which would lead me to think that they are not "magnetically-held until starter-cutout" …..just thinking.

[edetroit]

From a DC-8 manual:

"Do not release starter switch during start cycle"

"At 35% N2 release start switch"

[PJ2]

edetroit;

The pushbotton itself is also a light - the button illuminates when activated, (held in magnetically); when it pops out, the light extinguishes.

The series I flew had most of the system controls up front - the electrical & fuel control panels were on the back panels - the F/O's seat rails were long enough for him, (there were no "her's" back then), to parallel the generators at start-up and run the fuel panel during flight. It was intended to be the first "two-pilot" transport aircraft but never got quite that far. Our '8's had Second Officers who were licensed pilots on the seniority list- we never had FE's.

We did have Nav's though...used Loran-C & Astro, using a bubble-sextant...then later, Doppler. When INS, (not IRS) came in, our Navs were all given the opporunity to obtain licenses and join the pilot seniority list - many were successful.

The '63's I flew had start switches - they were spring-loaded - one had to hold the switch in the forward position - it was released at 35%N2. If you had a wet start, you could dry-motor the engine this way to clear it and give it time to drain before trying again. I've forgotten the N2 speed at which the HP cocks, (fuel control levers) were turned on. One pushed the button in the center of the control down, and brought it up, (forward) - releasing the button when it was fully forward locked the control in that position -the four of them were just behind the throttles.

The RR Conway-equipped series were full-throttle engines - takeoff EPR was typically 2.4 or so. The Pratts were set by EPR from a table. We re-engined the 61's & 63's with GE CFM56s later on, as freighters.

Never flew the '10...flew the '9, then the B727, Lockheed L1011, B767 then all the Airbussi...

[Metro man]

In the film "The Pilot" , Cliff Robertson is seen starting the engines using a toggle switch and starts no.1 first. Was there a particular start sequence for the DC8 as the B707 was 3,4,2,1.

I always felt that "The Pilot" was one of the better films for technical accuracy, apart from doing the taxi checks during pushback. Also, having a Captain who was an alcoholic with marital problems was true to life.;)

[CV880]

On the DC8-50 I was familiar with the blue light indicated start valve open and the buttons were pushed to start and originally latched in and released automatically at 35% N2. Some operators eventually deactivated the hold-in circuit due to reliability issues with the centrifugal switch in the starter which required the button to be held in manually. Last DC8 start I performed circa 1976/77 I had to hold the buttons in manually.
Agree with Metro man about The Pilot. Only aviation movie I recall that used real checklists etc.
All DC8's I serviced started 3,4,2,1 as hydraulic pumps were on inboards only however one could always pressurize the hydraulics with the electric aux pump and start in any order if you wanted too.

[edetroit]

"The pushbotton itself is also a light - the button illuminates when activated, (held in magnetically); when it pops out, the light extinguishes"

"the blue light indicated start valve open and the buttons were pushed to start and originally latched in and released automatically at 35% N2"

That is the answer I was looking for.

Thankyou very much everyone for clearing this up for me.

[oceancrosser]

That is a great picture, but I sure hope it was taken aboard a 'retired' airframe. It is a bit sad to see any panel in that condition.

I actually flew this airplane for two different operators. The start switches/buttons were probably one of many Douglas customer options. This airplane was built for SAS, they certainly had their share of eccentricity, might have been for commonality with the older DC-8s.
As for the looks, certainly dated. The last european operator certainly was not a "good home" maintenance vice.

PJ, I flew a few flights as F/O on one of these aircraft you guys tried to modify for two man crew. Jeez, things scattered all over the place. Bad setup. :=

[Beercan227]

It's been over 25 years, I flew the 63 and 73's, but I still know one thing.
When you push that button, you get a nice warm feeling, you are starting
the aircraft that will get you there. The F/E will call the pressure drop in the manifold, valve open, and the recovery, valve closed. I don't remember if there are lights in the over head. Enjoy every second flying that great aircraft,
I was so sad when my company said the 8s are going!
As the joke goes, How many people does it take to change a landing light in a DC-8. One to do the work, four or five to stand around and remember what a great landing light it was.

[CV880]

Hi PJ2,
Your reference to DC8's with the systems controls up front presumably refers to Canadian Pacific or did Air Canada indulge in a similar folly? I used to service CP DC8-63's in Asia in the early 70's and noted that they had all the hydraulic controls and indicators on the Captain's panel when the standard Douglas layout had them on the F/E's panel (where every other DC8 I handled had them!). One day a CP -43 or -53 showed up in place of the usual -63 and the cockpit was a shocker. The overhead and forward panels were seriously overcrowded with all the systems stuff and the F/E's panel was nearly empty mainly having only the electrics and fuel panels. There had even been a row of repeater fuel qty indicators along the lower edge of the F/O's panel but they had been deleted and the holes blanked.
It looked a dreadful set up to me at the time.