PDA

View Full Version : Today's Massacre in Paris


Pages : [1] 2 3 4

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 12:55
Well, here we go again: the Muslims showing what a peaceful and tolerant religion they have, the established political parties wringing their hands and doing nothing, and more and more ordinary French looking towards MMe La Pen for salvation. Which, having just read Hollande's speech, looks like about the only political party the average Frenchman can count on to actually do something.

SpringHeeledJack
7th Jan 2015, 13:05
Hollande feels that it's a terrorist attack. He could well be correct :rolleyes: As to how anything has been avenged is a subject for a future edition of Charlie Hebdo. What a shame that 12 unarmed people had to die at the hands of several deranged rambos. I wonder if the attackers are French muslims or from elsewhere ?


SHJ

oldchina
7th Jan 2015, 13:05
Religions are never tolerant. They all think theirs is the only real god and all the others are something akin to mickey mouse. Not a good start.

CISTRS
7th Jan 2015, 13:10
A coordinated team attack, planned to execute the Charlie Hebdo editorial team during their weekly meeting.
Not suicidal attackers.
Not Lone Wolf.
I wait with a heavy heart for members of this forum to tell us that Islam is not to blame.

Wingswinger
7th Jan 2015, 13:13
How long, how many more, before our politicians wake up to the savage vermin in our midst in the West?

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 13:19
I wait with a heavy heart for members of this forum to tell us that Islam is not to blame.

Of COURSE they will, CISTRS, and they will also tell us it's a "small minority" who do these things, and that "multiculturalism" is good for us.

However the ordinary people living in France aren't so stupid. I'd like to be able to quantify how much popularity the National Front has gained since this morning's attack.

Here's my credo: We have allowed a people to set up shop in our countries who have different aims from us and who will stop at nothing to impose their will on us, legally, socially and finally violently. Anyone who can't see this is a moron.

(And yes, I have friends who are Muslims and who are nice people I'm happy to see, talk to and socialise with. And would I trust them if their Imam told them to exterminate Christians ? No, I wouldn't).

Religions are never tolerant. They all think theirs is the only real god


True. But I can't think of any others who believe and obey the edict that they should massacre anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

falconeasydriver
7th Jan 2015, 13:19
The French won't take this lying down. The attack was very well planned and co-ordinated, the wounded policeman was executed on the jog by one of the gunman as he trotted past. It's clear to me from the video that this was not the first time that at least one of these individuals has acted in a deadly fashion, too slick too choreographed and most certainly composed.
I'd start looking at ex military, para military and or dis-affected Muslims....sad to say.

BillHicksRules
7th Jan 2015, 13:59
To those calling for action, what do you suggest?

I am not Islam-apologist I am simply wondering what can actually be done to prevent such atrocities beyond what the intelligence services are already doing?

As the IRA said during the Troubles "we only have to get lucky once, the authorities have to be lucky every time".

felixflyer
7th Jan 2015, 14:00
I look forward to Mme. Le Pen's election victory. Coupled with the recent anti-Islam rallies in Germany, and the rise of UKIP in the UK, maybe there's hope yet for Europe

Maybe that is the whole point of these attacks and what certain people are trying to achieve. Someone somewhere obviously wants to stir things up in the west. These people are just pawns with religion used as a means of control.

Torque Tonight
7th Jan 2015, 14:07
I am numbed by this. I too think we are approaching a tipping point in western Europe where this clash of cultures turns very ugly.

Only in the last few weeks we have had many tiptoeing around the issue, making all sorts of excuses for the perpetrators of evil acts and the doctrine behind them. Declaring anybody who raises concern as racist, such as the tens of thousands of normal people protesting in Germany.

Today we have a direct attack on western principles of freedom of speech and secular democracy. There is a video already available of this attack showing a wounded policeman on the pavement, raising his hand for mercy being shot in the head in cold blood. It is unbelievably deplorable. I suspect posting the link would get me in trouble with the mods but it is important that people should know the enemy we face in our own cities.

The video is not pleasant but it is important. It should be a wake up call to anyone who thinks we can reason with these pigs.

Mr Chips
7th Jan 2015, 14:13
John Smith you seem to have retracted your idea of making an entire religion illegal, and now just want to target whole communities.

Might I suggest that you refer to the Czech village of Lidice, feel free to Google if it means nothing to you...

felixflyer
7th Jan 2015, 14:13
The criminalisation of Islam, with severe penalties for those breaking the law, would be a good start.

Which is precisely what they want. Do you really think that would help in any way?

Turning people against moderate muslims is the aim of these attacks. What is needed is for muslims to come out and show that they do not support this kind of thing and close ranks against fanatical islamists.

It is not enough to just issue statements in the media condemning it. I think people need to see that it is just a very small minority of easily brainwashed idiots causing all the trouble and the millions of peaceful muslims are as against it as everyone else.

If atrocities were being done in the name of something I supported I would be out there trying to stop it myself, not sitting back complaining about victimisation.

Why the various muslim groups of the world are not organising large scale demonstrations in every major city denouncing this kind of thing being done in the name of their religion I do not know.

INeedTheFull90
7th Jan 2015, 14:22
I'm really stunned at some views on here. Muslims (I don't believe in this 'moderate' nonsense, it's Muslims, or extremists) are just like you and I. Have he same hopes, dreams and aspirations and are good people. They may be conservative, but we don't have to look too far for conservative Christians. There is just a small proportion who cause all the grief.

Personally I blame 12 years of Labour here in the UK. We natives are no longer able to challenge ANYTHING regarding Islam without being branded a racist and with that there can be no solutions to the problems, dialogues between communities or even just a discussion to put people's minds at rest.

Smeagol
7th Jan 2015, 14:23
"To those calling for action, what do you suggest? "

How about for starters:

Not allowing further immigration into western countries by anyone of Islamic persuasion.

Closing all Islamic based schools

Closing any mosque which has a hint of extremism attached to it (sod it ! just close all mosques!)

LEGAL TENDER
7th Jan 2015, 14:27
yet if someone went on twitter to post a message of hate towards Muslims he'd probably end up jailed..

Fox3WheresMyBanana
7th Jan 2015, 14:29
"Tolerance of Intolerance is cowardice"

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

(and she should know)

TowerDog
7th Jan 2015, 14:31
"To those calling for action, what do you suggest? "

How about for starters:

Not allowing further immigration into western countries by anyone of Islamic persuasion.

Closing all Islamic based schools

Closing any mosque which has a hint of extremism attached to it (sod it ! just close all mosques!).

Agreed 100%

BillHicksRules
7th Jan 2015, 14:33
Smeagol,

Would you have supported the shutting of Catholic schools and chapels during the Troubles in NI?

teeteringhead
7th Jan 2015, 14:34
Might I suggest that you refer to the Czech village of Lidice, feel free to Google if it means nothing to you...

73 minutes and 14 posts Mr Chips! Well done - Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) in action.

[Link included to save Googling if it means nothing to you ....... ;)]

Fox3WheresMyBanana
7th Jan 2015, 14:39
Another non-violent suggestion.

Since the Islamic communities and Islamic nations are doing nothing effective against extremists, and bearing in mind that blasphemy is a capital offence in, for example, Pakistan.

May I suggest you check where any products you buy were made?
May I suggest you check which firms produce halal products, and which shops sell them?

Battles are won by armed forces, wars are won by logistics.

Mr Chips
7th Jan 2015, 14:41
Teeteringhead I am fully aware of Godwins law, I am also painfully aware of how frequently John Smith's post make certain 1930s politicians look moderate.

To punish a community for the transgressions of individuals is an horrific prospect, so comparisons to Nazi Germany are, I'm afraid, rather inevitable

teeteringhead
7th Jan 2015, 14:46
Mr C I agree your sentiments entirely, although I was unaware of JS's posting history as I rarely venture into "political" threads. I apologise for any offence caused. (But I do know of Lidice :()

Smeagol
7th Jan 2015, 14:47
"Smeagol,

Would you have supported the shutting of Catholic schools and chapels during the Troubles in NI? "


I might well have supported the closing of ALL religion based schools (of both denominations) as in that instance both were probably guilty of promulgating their own brand of warped religion and hence perpetuating the problems.

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 14:54
No, you do not ban the religion (silly suggestion anyway, how do you 'ban' a religion ?)

What you do is make all parts of a society conform to the law or social mores of the land.

1) Language. Everyone living there has to speak the language of the land.

2) There is only one public religion. Go and do what you want to do in private but do not expect special considerations for your religion. (I refer anyone interested to the lack of planning permission for the London Mosque which disfigures the south west corner of Regent's Park).

3) Dress - everyone should conform to the standards of the country they live in. Headscarves yes, full face covers and full body covers, no.

4) Subsidies for minority groups, no. (Maroccans in Spain get subsidised medical care and school costs).

5) No "faith" schools.

6) No "blind eyes" being turned. (Again, back to the London Mosque. During services you will see a large number of black Mercedes parked outside, drivers inside in cold weather with engine running. All parked illegally. A policeman said to me "it would be more than my life's worth down at the station to give one of them a ticket - and don't quote me on that".

7) Social Security, Benefits, Legal Documents - in English (OK plus Welsh and Gaelic) only, please. If you want any of these things, learn English !
It is after all the country you decided to live in.

In other words, no new laws, or mostly no new laws. Just common sense and above all fairness.

Before someone shouts at me, I have been an expat since 1968. I always learned the local language and never received any benefits of any sort particular to my "foreign" status. I conform to the local dress (sometimes the lack of it) and visit a Basilica of the local religion every Sunday. No one asked me to come here - it was my decision and I conform to the local society. That's what everyone should do.

Torque Tonight
7th Jan 2015, 15:02
I don't know how we can fix this problem. It's probably too late already.

I'm would probably say to ISIS, you can have Syria and Iraq, have your Islamic State and go full sharia to your heart's content. Western governments will give a free one way ticket to IS to anybody supporting ISIS so they can enjoy their utopian paradise. The deal is that we build a big flippin wall around IS and once you're up and running nothing goes in and nothing goes out ever again. Inbound no electricity, telephone lines, internet, water, medicine, iphones, food, aid money, pickup trucks. Outbound no missiles, suicide bombers, propaganda, migrants. Everone's happy.

BillHicksRules
7th Jan 2015, 15:06
OFSO,

1) Really? How has that worked out for expats (other than you) abroad?
2) Nonsense. There should be no "public religion". People worship or not but no "officially sanctioned" religion.
3) Despite being of the opinion that all religions are nuts I would oppose the imposition of a ban on religious garb e.g. clothing, crosses etc.
4) Agree
5) Agree
6) Agree
7) Most native born struggle with them in English so that one is fine. :E:E

felixflyer
7th Jan 2015, 15:06
Torque Tonight, supposing they did that, how long do you think it would be before they started fighting between themselves?

TURIN
7th Jan 2015, 15:07
Religions are never tolerant. They all think theirs is the only real god


True. But I can't think of any others who believe and obey the edict that they should massacre anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

Really?

Have a read of the old testament. :mad:

The middle east is full of nutjobs willing to follow that load of nonsense!

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 15:13
1) Really? How has that worked out for expats (other than you) abroad?

Well, everyone here in my area speaks Castilliano or Catalan or both. Including expats. Anyone conducting a business also speaks French and German. YOU HAVE TO or you won't get French or German clients. English comes a bit down the list, but yes most expats who are not English speak a bit.

If you are insinuating that expats from the UK would have trouble, no. All (no exceptions) of the British I know speak Castilliano (mostly) or Catalan.

TURIN
7th Jan 2015, 15:14
Quote:
I look forward to Mme. Le Pen's election victory. Coupled with the recent anti-Islam rallies in Germany, and the rise of UKIP in the UK, maybe there's hope yet for Europe
Quote:Maybe that is the whole point of these attacks and what certain people are trying to achieve. Someone somewhere obviously wants to stir things up in the west. These people are just pawns with religion used as a means of control.

That was the first thing that occurred to me when I saw the grouping of bullet holes in the police car windscreen.
Professional job. But by whom and with what agenda?

Fortunately the world is full of tolerant folk, unlike JB which it appears has still got a hangover from the last unpleasantness-from the losers side.

Or do the JB faithful recommend we start building the ovens now? :ugh::rolleyes:

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 15:14
2) Nonsense. There should be no "public religion". People worship or not but no "officially sanctioned" religion.

Try telling Queen Elizabeth that.

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 15:16
3) Despite being of the opinion that all religions are nuts I would oppose the imposition of a ban on religious garb e.g. clothing, crosses etc.

Agreed. But not where the religion indicates or is to believed indicate you must cover your face. If you are not Muslim and not female, try turning up for a hearing in a law court with your face covered and see where it gets you.

BabyBear
7th Jan 2015, 15:20
I'm would probably say to ISIS, you can have Syria and Iraq, have your Islamic State and go full sharia to your heart's content.

Wouldn't work though, would it? They want to impose their way on the world's population. Nothing short of full compliance is acceptable to them.

Torque Tonight
7th Jan 2015, 15:21
felixflyer, within about a week I reckon, but by then it's their problem. Then they'll realise that building a successful civilization takes more than just cutting off heads.

Artie Fufkin
7th Jan 2015, 15:26
Religions are never tolerant. They all think theirs is the only real god


True. But I can't think of any others who believe and obey the edict that they should massacre anyone who doesn't believe as they do.
Presumably you are ignoring The Crusades, The Inquisition and Tudor era England?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv77lPW3cys

Torque Tonight
7th Jan 2015, 15:29
And this old comment always comes up. The difference is that the rest of the world has moved on in the last half millenium or so, whilst some didn't and in fact actively want to drag the world back to tne dark ages.

Lonewolf_50
7th Jan 2015, 15:41
Newton's Third Law of motion seems to apply to politics as well, except that "equal" has varying value ranges.

The reaction will be of interest to observe.

BabyBear
7th Jan 2015, 15:53
The difference is that the rest of the world has moved on in the last half millennium or so, whilst some didn't and

Is it a case that Islam is behind because it is a younger religion?

Are there any lessons in how the rest of the world has moved on that could be applied to speed up the process for Islam?

Lonewolf_50
7th Jan 2015, 15:57
Are there any lessons in how the rest of the world has moved on that could be applied to speed up the process for Islam? Sure, you bet. People in a group/culture are :rolleyes: always :rolleyes: happy for outsiders to come in and tell them to change. Oh, wait, about 3,000 years of recorded history doesn't quite show us that. :eek:

Here's what "we'll" do: send you to visit the King of Saudi Arabia (one of the anchors of the more medieval strains in Islam) and see how your getting them to catch up works out. Please let us know how it turns out.

6000PIC
7th Jan 2015, 15:59
The continuation of these pinprick attacks at Western civilisation will eventually stir such a hornet's nest that radical Islam , in fact Islam and Religion in general should fear for their continued existence. That day approaches.
Not until the body count is high enough will the West act. I look forward to the day ALL Religions are eradicated from the face of the Earth. Wake up Europe. The fight has been brought to you. This is the WAR of our time.

Mr Chips
7th Jan 2015, 16:04
I look forward to the day ALL Religions are eradicated from the face of the Earth
Oh, here comes another one... Do you know how many people that involves?


Religion Adherents
Christianity[4] 2.2 billion
Islam 1.6 billion
Hinduism 1 billion
Chinese traditional religion[c] 394 million
Buddhism 376 million
Ethnic religions excluding some in separate categories 300 million
African traditional religions 100 million
Sikhism 23 million
Juche[d] 19 million
Spiritism 15 million
Judaism 14 million
Bahá'í 7 million
Jainism 4.2 million
Shinto 4 million
Cao Dai 4 million
Zoroastrianism 2.6 million
Tenrikyo 2 million
Neo-Paganism 1 million
Unitarian Universalism 800,000
Rastafarianism 600,000

Yeah, get rid of all religions. I've never trusted those tricky Zoroastrians. Lets face it, all the big wars were based on religion.....

oldchina
7th Jan 2015, 16:06
"Are there any lessons in how the rest of the world has moved on that could be applied to speed up the process for Islam?"

Yes, by and large the masses have shaken off the hold that the religious establishments had over them. Some still believe, but a lot don't. Religion no longer controls the lives of the people.


Mr Chips: how many of those millions are true believers, in that they've thought about whether they want to be a Catholic or a muslim, for example? A few thousands at most. The rest are following the herd (or parents).

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2015, 16:07
The politicians are seriously out of step with public opinion on this. I think Farage probably is closest but many people would regard UKIP's stance as uselessly weak and ineffective.

Tolerance of intolerance is unacceptable and these people need to be confronted by sufficient force to solve the problem. And I'm a leftie!

FlyMD
7th Jan 2015, 16:07
As the Hitch was fond of saying, had you asked in the 1930s what religion is the most dangerous to civilization, the answer could only have been the catholic church: the term "fascist" and "conservative catholic" were as good as interchangeable, and stayed that way beyond the end of the second world war.

Just as evidently, Islam is today's menace. Bad ideas have consequences, and to quote Sam Harris, Islam right now is the mother-lode of bad ideas. There is no sense in denying the obvious, and the fact that 99% of muslims would never dream of violent behavior does not change the fact that the vast majority of "moderates" gives cover to the extremist fringe by refusing to reform their religion.

Just as you can say there is no such thing as a "bad" child, only bad behavior which, unchecked, will produce an adult criminal; similarly, I would venture there is no such thing as a "good" religion, but that all religions which renounce violence and aggressive proselytism are to be accepted (note I did not say "tolerated") as every individual's or community's right.

Thus it's ridiculous on its face to combat Islam, even amongst immigrants in a non-muslim country. To strip a group of their cultural heritage and identity and try to force integration has been tried before with spectacularly bad results...
It is however perfectly legitimate to for western cultures to ask muslim communities to renounce unacceptable behavior and dogmas, such as "jihad" as anything else than a personal spiritual struggle for example. It is also legitimate and perhaps necessary to outlaw and disband religious schools and groups advocating the rise of the Caliphate, or the even demanding the temporal application of Shariah law in any civilized country.

Today's attack on Charlie Hebdo is not a first. It is similar to the fatwah on Salman Rushdie, the hounding of Ayan Hirsi Ali, the manufactured riots over the mohammed cartoons in that it attacks a core value of our society: the freedom of thought and expression. This freedom has been under attack from within, which is unacceptable enough and has to be fought. It is all the more unacceptable that it should be attacked from without, with the tacit support of the "muslim world".

When Salman Rushdie was under threat of assassination, the real scandal, beyond the despicable fatwah from Iran, was the tacit complicity of churches and lily-livered politicians in the west, who, in a puke-inducing display of cowardice and idiocy, berated Rushdie for "provoking" muslims.

When Denmark was attacked in a staged outrage-campaign over the cartoons, it is again the western media and religious communities who betrayed us with their pandering cowardice.

It is to be hoped that this time, the french and other western media, as well as their political and religious leaders will stand up to the challenge in a firm and dignified way.

Mr Chips
7th Jan 2015, 16:16
Oldchina
Mr Chips: how many of those millions are true believers, in that they've thought about whether they want to be a Catholic or a muslim, for example? A few thousands at most. The rest are following the herd (or parents).
Are you f'ing kidding me? You think there are a "few thousands" believers out of BILLIONS? I've personally be in crowds of more than a couple of thousand believers.

The point is, to outlaw "religion" as someone suggested would affect billions of people worldwide. BILLIONS

oldchina
7th Jan 2015, 16:18
When did it start?
In 1938 most people didn't know WWII had already started in Manchuria.
Anyone betting on a new hundred years war?


Chips: I mean true believers who have engaged brain and thought about it. Not followers.

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 16:18
SKY news UK reporting that French police are unwilling to enter some suburbs due to previous unrest.

BabyBear
7th Jan 2015, 16:18
Sure, you bet. People in a group/culture are always happy for outsiders to come in and tell them to change. Oh, wait, about 3,000 years of recorded history doesn't quite show us that.

Here's what "we'll" do: send you to visit the King of Saudi Arabia (one of the anchors of the more medieval strains in Islam) and see how your getting them to catch up works out. Please let us know how it turns out.

What's happened to your imagination, Lonewolf? Did assuming/suggesting I was advocating a direct approach simply permit a cheap dig?:ok:

Mr Chips
7th Jan 2015, 16:22
Oldchina without getting into a pointless debate on believers/followers/whatevers, you still can't "eradicate" all world religions when it would be resisted by billions of people. Billions. Is that order of magnitude sinking in yet?

Lon More
7th Jan 2015, 16:31
True. But I can't think of any others who believe and obey the edict that they should massacre anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

Ignoring
The Crusades,

European wars of religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion)

Norn Irn

any Old Firm match in Glasgow

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2015, 16:33
MikeEcho, I'm sorry but I feel that this was quite a bad thing to do. I don't see Mormons blowing away Jehovah's Witnesses,Methodists wiping out Quakers or Sikhs attacking Jews. There is always one religion involved and that religion is consistently the one that looks back with longing to the middle ages.

flying lid
7th Jan 2015, 16:36
Read somewhere that around 90% of Islamic terrorists originate, or have links to, the lawless tribal areas of Northern Pakistan.

Lid

rgbrock1
7th Jan 2015, 16:37
Wingswinger wrote:

How long, how many more, before our politicians wake up to the savage vermin in our midst in the West?

It's not just the politicians who need to wake up. Read some of the replies on this thread for further examples.

As far as an answer to your question of "how long"? Um.... um.....um....
hm..... um....ahhhh.....

MG23
7th Jan 2015, 16:40
When Christian fundamentalists raided Iraq for oil, I mean WMDs, no one went around accusing “peaceful Christians” of not practicing what they preach?

Many people, Christian and otherwise, opposed the invasion of Iraq. If I remember correctly, London saw the largest protest marches in decades opposing it.

Rich and powerful Christians, even if they are self professed have murdered far more during the course of the last 100 years, far more people than tiny criminal Muslim gangs. But I suppose you will never see the world in light of this fact will you?And atheists like Stalin and Mao killed vastly more. It's arguable as to whether even Hilter considered himself a Christian, though clearly the church collaborated to some extent.

rgbrock1
7th Jan 2015, 16:40
Lets face it, all the big wars were based on religion..

And in what way were WWI and WWII based on religion?

SpringHeeledJack
7th Jan 2015, 16:42
I wonder how many (% wise) of the Muslim faithful agree with today's avenging of the prophet in their hearts, although they would never contemplate this direct action themselves ?



SHJ

Mr Chips
7th Jan 2015, 16:44
Oh RGB, turn on your sarcasm detector...considering my comment followed the one about them pesky Zoroastrians I didn't think it would need a smiley...

The big wars were not based on religion.

rgbrock1
7th Jan 2015, 16:45
SHJ:

Silence speaks so much louder than words.

rgbrock1
7th Jan 2015, 16:46
Mr. Chips:

Sarcasm detector engaged. Woop, woop, woop. Sarcasm detected and noted. Woop, woop, woop.

(I'll have to do a better job of separating out the sarcasm detector stratum from my own personal built-in bast**d radar, which is constantly squawking.)

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2015, 16:48
SHJ, Just a guess - 25%.

Lon More
7th Jan 2015, 16:52
Mr. Chips, you forgot to mention the Jedi

bugged on the right
7th Jan 2015, 17:06
Mr Echo, I'm sure most of you buy your mothers flowers as well but when you move to a country, voluntarily or as a refugee, it is only at a minimum good manners not to abuse the hospitality. If it doesn't suit the way you would like things to be, go somewhere else. In other words, love it or leave it.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
7th Jan 2015, 17:07
Some serious dumb attitudes prevail among those who think they are better.

Um, Mike, that's the reason for sarcastic humour about Religion, because far too many of the religious lot, especially their hierarchies, do think they are better. And yes, I have and will make jokes about anyone with religious hubris to their face. Equally, I have complete respect for those who offer respect.

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2015, 17:11
Mike, Quite seriously you need to go elsewhere. This lampooning of everyone and everything is part of our tradition, it goes back centuries. It doesn't mean that we hate you,merely that we find your ideas quirky. If you don't like that then you need to stop having quirky ideas or adjust to the fact that we find your views and beliefs odd. You are not alone,we find the ideas of Christians, Hindus,Sikhs,Jews,Buddhists and all the others equally odd. It's just that all those don't decide to kill us.

Lonewolf_50
7th Jan 2015, 17:28
When Salman Rushdie was under threat of assassination, the real scandal, beyond the despicable fatwah from Iran, was the tacit complicity of churches and lily-livered politicians in the west, who, in a puke-inducing display of cowardice and idiocy, berated Rushdie for "provoking" muslims.

When Denmark was attacked in a staged outrage-campaign over the cartoons, it is again the western media and religious communities who betrayed us with their pandering cowardice.

It is to be hoped that this time, the french and other western media, as well as their political and religious leaders will stand up to the challenge in a firm and dignified way And so it goes yet again ...

Lonewolf_50
7th Jan 2015, 17:30
When Christian fundamentalists raided Iraq for oil, I mean WMDs, no one went around accusing “peaceful Christians” of not practicing what they preach?
Since that isn't what happened, try getting back to us when you have a clue?

@ Babybear: any number of people familiar with modern Islam have pointed out that until that subculture goes through a form of the Reformation, not much will change. In Christendom, that process took a couple of centuries for the base culture to move in a new direction.

Don't hold your breath mate, unless you have a short cut. I am all ears.

sitigeltfel
7th Jan 2015, 17:39
To punish a community for the transgressions of individuals is an horrific prospect, so comparisons to Nazi Germany are, I'm afraid, rather inevitable

It was entirely predictable that someone would bring up the "Nazi" word, and yes, you didn't disappoint.

The big difference is that the Jews were persecuted due to bigotry, intolerance and fabricated evidence. What we have in Islam is a cult with a long and proven record of barbaric violence to anyone who is not part of their beliefs. From the day they can first comrehend speech they are taught that those not of their cult are lesser mortals, unworthy and expendable. Forget that they have "communities" and "individuals" and replace it with "support networks" and "front line troops" and you would be closer to the mark. As long as the support network is there, then attacking their troops is a futile cause. The action against them has to be taken right to the core in a manner that leaves them in no doubt that business is meant. It won't be pretty but it will have to be done. Drivel about hearts and minds won't wash as they see it as a weakness to be exploited, and you and your like give them all the leeway they need to carry out massacres like that seen today.

The Front National need only sit back and wait while those like you do their campaigning for them.

LTNman
7th Jan 2015, 17:52
Do we ever see Muslims laugh. They were born with no sense of humour when it comes to their stupid religion.

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2015, 17:56
I knew it had to happen sooner or later. Sitigeltfel has posted something I agree with.

lonkmu
7th Jan 2015, 17:57
These guys were highly trained - whoever they were

Mail has some pictures and vids - one of which is a shot of a police car windscreen - the groupings with an AK are those of a pro.

The vids show them executing a wounded policeman who is begging for his life

Hired guns is my guess - "insurgents" they call them (in the sandy places)

tonker
7th Jan 2015, 17:57
No but we do see them holding posters mocking the Jews etc

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 17:58
the usual middle aged white xenophobes

I resent that ! My middle age is about 30 years in my past.

If yo' going to call me anything, I'm an elderly white xenophobe.

A few years ago we had the house painted, the guys doing it were Maroccans. Nice workers, amazingly clean and tidy, cleared up every evening of the two weeks they worked here. They thought we should drink tea with mint, we thought they should drink tea with milk. They had a good sense of humour, were nice to the cat. During Ramadan we didn't eat or drink in their presence and didn't cook anything that made tantalising smells. Because we respect their beliefs. Oh and I know that if I'd have left any money or valuables out in their presence, these would have been untouched.

Yet when it comes down to it, these guys are, after all, Moslems, they read the Koran (so do I but that's another matter) and their teachers tell them every word is true. Now does that worry me ? Yes it does.

There is no place in the Quran where Muhammad commands Muslims to love people of other religions. By contrast there are at least three dozen verses that tell Muslims to fight against non-Muslims and about 500 that speak of their place in Hell. They are from each period in Muhammad's life, scattered across 87 of the Quran's 114 chapters.

To put this in perspective, nearly one out of twelve verses in the Quran says that Allah hates non-Muslims to the extent that he will torment them for eternity in horrible ways. The Suras that make reference to this comprise about 95% of the Quran's total volume. If Allah creates infidels merely to fuel the fires of Hell, then there is little reason for Muslims to believe that such lives are of any worth in this world either.

Lonewolf_50
7th Jan 2015, 18:14
Do we ever see Muslims laugh. They were born with no sense of humour when it comes to their stupid religion.
Yes, Muslims laugh. Muslims are people.
You know who else laughed?
Hitler!:eek:
(OK, my parody of Godwin's Law wasn't all that good ... )

Capetonian
7th Jan 2015, 18:24
Shocking and appalling but not unexpected. The resentment against the islamisation of European society is coming out everywhere now and it will increase after this attack. The fanatical Islamists will become bolder and will copy what has been started. This is the beginning of what many have seen coming for years.

The French will not take this lying down - they don't do things by halves when it comes to dealing with attacks on the armed forces and police.

Meanwhile, Front National will gather more votes for many reasons related to today's attack.

ORAC
7th Jan 2015, 18:32
SKY news UK reporting that French police are unwilling to enter some suburbs due to previous unrest.

"Many people think it impossible for guerrillas to exist for long in the enemy's rear. Such a belief reveals lack of comprehension of the relationship that should exist between the people and the troops. The former may be likened to water the latter to the fish who inhabit it. How may it be said that these two cannot exist together?"

On Guerilla Warfare (1937), Chapter 6 - "The Political Problems of Guerilla Warfare" - Mao Zedong

This is usually aphorized as "The people are the sea that the revolutionary swims in," or an equivalent.

west lakes
7th Jan 2015, 18:41
SKY news UK reporting that French police are unwilling to enter some suburbs due to previous unrest.

Wait!

Some years back there was some unrest in this area which included a petrol bomb vs Police car incident, they had also broken into a sub-station and switched all the leccy off!

I was on call and asked to attend the local police station, where i was told there would be a delay before I was escorted in to restore supplies whilst sufficient police officers arrived, or as one sergeant put it
"We are not going in there until we know we will win"

MG23
7th Jan 2015, 18:43
SKY news UK reporting that French police are unwilling to enter some suburbs due to previous unrest.

There have been news stories about French police 'no-go areas' for years, so it doesn't really seem to be anything new. However, didn't the French design their welfare ghettos so there's only one road in and out, which can easily be blocked? I seem to remember they learned that in their colonial days, and brought the lesson home.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
7th Jan 2015, 18:51
I think you'll find the French Police will be perfectly happy to patrol if their ROE are changed, and I don't blame them.

ORAC
7th Jan 2015, 19:08
Dan Hodges, The Telegraph: Charlie Hebdo attack: Want to see what a 'threat to our freedom' looks like? Turn on your TV (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11330649/Want-to-see-what-a-threat-to-our-freedom-looks-like-Turn-on-your-TV.html)

Just before I started this piece I was about to tweet the picture of the cartoon of the prophet Muhammad published by the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. I was going to do it “in solidarity”. And then I stopped. I stopped because I was scared.

We hear a lot about freedom, and threats to our freedom. We heard about it, for example, when the government asked the Guardian to stop publishing the Snowden files because of the risk to national security. We heard about it last year, when David Cameron announced he was bringing back plans to allow the security agencies to monitor, and retain data on, our electronic communications – the so-called “snooper’s charter”. We heard about it in the wake of the Lee Rigby killing, where we told the state would use the murder as an excuse for a further erosion of our liberties.

But those are not real assaults on our freedom. Switch on your TV. You will see and hear what an assault on freedom really looks like. I’m looking at it now. Two masked, black-clad figures, opening up on police with their guns in an otherwise quiet residential street. And that’s only a partial view. The broadcasters are not showing the moment those figures run up to a wounded policeman, and shoot him dead at point-blank range. Nor do they have footage of the moment when the attackers burst into the Charlie Hebdo offices with their Kalashnikovs, reportedly called out staff members by name, and then gunned them down.

This is an actual assault on our freedom. The pre-meditated, cold-blooded murder of someone because they drew a cartoon. Or edited a magazine that published a cartoon. Or worked in the office of a magazine that publishes cartoons.

Events like today’s always follow the same cycle. First there is the shock and horror. Then there are the calls not to overreact. And finally we simply forget and move on. This time, because journalists were amongst the victims, the period of shock and horror may last a bit longer. Over the coming hours and days there will be many eloquent articles written about the massacre, (it will become a “tragedy” soon). Many of those articles will be on a similar theme. They will explain how, ultimately, the pen is mightier than the sword. How the terrorists will never win. Charlie Hebdo will emerge on the newsstands again, and it will be seen as a proud act of defiance.

And we will be deluding ourselves.

The terrorists are winning. They wanted to murder the people who in their eyes were behind the publication of that cartoon. And they succeeded. I am sitting in my own living room. I am too scared to tweet a picture of that cartoon. The terrorists are winning. Hands down. This is what a genuine assault on freedom looks and feels like. And if we want to live in a free society, then we are going to have to protect ourselves from people who would take it from us at the point of a gun.

If one way of stopping obscenities like today is providing the security services a bit more access to our e-mails, we must give it to them. If it means internet providers handing over their records, the records must be handed over. If it means newspapers showing restraint the next time an Edward Snowden knocks on their door, then restraint will have to be shown. Because look who came knocking at the door today.

Policemen are being murdered in our streets. Cartoonists – cartoonists – are being murdered at their desks. And we will not stop the people who are doing this with reassuring editorials. I wish we could. When I’d revealed I’d deleted my tweet containing that cartoon, a number of people responded by calling me a coward. “You’ve just given in to them”, someone said.

They’re right. I am a coward. I have given in. Before today I also believed the pen was mightier than the sword. But I was wrong.

skydiver69
7th Jan 2015, 19:30
How can a religion be so fundamentally weak that some of its adherents feel threatened by a few lines of ink on a piece of paper? How can those same people want to live in such a humourless world that they cannot take a joke about their god, or allow non relatives to look at the face of a pubescent woman, or even ban singing, dancing or coloured pens. If their religion really was a good as they think it is then people would be flocking in their millions to join it without any coercion, force or threat, but as it is some of its followers feel the need to murder and slaughter people who express even the mildest opinion against it. Or how about a religion which split into different factions because they couldn't decide if it was right to follow the son of the prophet rather than other descendants of the same prophet, with those two groups feeling the need to kill the other on a regular basis.

ehwatezedoing
7th Jan 2015, 19:30
One French news "Le Monde" has released the policeman's name who had been killed at point blank range....Ahmed Merabe.

If true: :eek:

Ahmed is I believe a contraption of Mohammed.

Gertrude the Wombat
7th Jan 2015, 19:35
In a house clearing shot was a Crucifix target. Should I make it my life's work to seek out and kill those guys for insulting Christianity?
Isn't worshipping an instrument of torture a bit weird in the first place?

Hey! - I can say stuff like that now and not get burned at the stake for it. But a few centuries ago?

ORAC
7th Jan 2015, 19:44
Expect with the crucifix you are not, you are worshipping the sacrifice of the person being tortured upon it.

I'm not religious, but I have to say , Gertrude, your post fills me with contempt and loathing for you.

El Grifo
7th Jan 2015, 19:49
The only possible positive outcome from this new slaughter, may be some kind of awakening to the menace in our midst.

Mind you, I have said that after the last muslim atrocities and things have only got worse.

Does anyone here believe that governments will ever have to balls to face this crap head-on !!

Statement from Rushdie :-

Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today. I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity. ‘Respect for religion’ has become a code phrase meaning ‘fear of religion.’ Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.

El G.

bugged on the right
7th Jan 2015, 20:12
Just been looking at pics of French troops on the streets of Paris. Weapons loaded for beard.

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 20:19
French police have identified the shooters, three names given, two appear to be brothers.

Said Kouachi
Sherif Kouachi
Hamid Mourad

the youngest is 18

Wingswinger
7th Jan 2015, 20:32
Dead men walking. With any luck.

Rosevidney1
7th Jan 2015, 20:37
And what was the reason for the reviled crusades, pray remind me? Nothing to do with the followers of the religion of peace being slightly beastly to the Christians during their pilgrimage, like killing or enslaving them, surely?

Capetonian
7th Jan 2015, 20:39
They probably crossed the (non-existent) border into Belgium or Luxemburg within a couple of hours of the killings. They could now be anywhere within the Schengen zone or more likely, outside it.

con-pilot
7th Jan 2015, 20:41
Does anyone here believe that governments will ever have to balls to face this crap head-on !!


No, I really do not, the PC crowd is too powerful.

Wingswinger
7th Jan 2015, 20:44
That is why we are witnessing the rise of the right in Europe.

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 20:49
Apparently the three are hiding out in the city of Reims France, the net is tightening....two of them had just returned from Syria.

BillHicksRules
7th Jan 2015, 20:51
El G,

So what do you want our politicians to do?

west lakes
7th Jan 2015, 20:52
Dead men walking. With any luck.

I disagree, far better they are taken alive and jailed.
If they die they become martyrs for their cause, alive they are not

Been Accounting
7th Jan 2015, 20:58
21h30 Identified not "arrested"

Attaque terroriste à «*Charlie Hebdo*» (http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/live/2015/01/07/en-direct-des-coups-de-feu-au-siege-de-charlie-hebdo_4550635_3224.html)
De sources policières obtenues par Le Monde, les trois suspects de l'attaque contre "Charlie Hebdo" ont été identifiés.

JFZ90
7th Jan 2015, 20:59
What is your source Magpie?

Two of the guys are from Paris, one from Reims apparently. One only 18.

Terrible.

tony draper
7th Jan 2015, 21:00
Hope there are plenty stairs in French police stations for them to fall down five or six times.

tartare
7th Jan 2015, 21:10
Personally, I'd like to see every newspaper and every website worldwide now publish those Mohammed cartoons.
Simultaneously.
What would you do then terrorists?
You can't kill all of us.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
7th Jan 2015, 21:12
The mainstream media don't have the courage.
Well, not that many people do, but they could at least Get Out Of The Way of those who do.

Solid Rust Twotter
7th Jan 2015, 21:16
...they could at least Get Out Of The Way of those who do.


That's not how useful idiots work, Mr Banana.

tartare
7th Jan 2015, 21:16
More's the pity Fox.
Well - I hope the `Flic' give those cowards a fvcking good rubber hosing.

sitigeltfel
7th Jan 2015, 21:17
Hope there are plenty stairs in French police stations for them to fall down five or six times.

Perish the thought Mr D. After all, these terrorists have rights! :rolleyes:

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 21:19
Apparently the Berlin BZ newspaper front and back covers are covered in the Charlie Hebro publications cartoons.

tartare
7th Jan 2015, 21:21
...all it will take is for a few newspapers to have the balls...
I don't often agree with the bloody Grainuad - but today a columinist wrote:

In response we must fight them. And we must laugh, ridicule and ultimately disrespect them. Fanatics, as Amos Oz said, don’t really do jokes. There cannot be peaceful coexistence with those who are want to return to a fantasy of the seventh century. They brook no dissent. They fear laughter. Rushdie has spoken of how religion, all religion, deserves “our fearless disrespect”. Some have died for this. The least we can do is carry on being disrespectful.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
7th Jan 2015, 21:22
I won't be consulting any news source that doesn't repeat the cartoons, and I shall be getting a "Je suis Charlie" T-shirt as soon as I can find one where the money goes to the families left behind.

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 21:29
A number of European newspapers are publishing the cartoons, cant see any UK media outlets doing it yet.
Time to put up or shut up.

wiggy
7th Jan 2015, 21:35
It's not on my routine reading list but I made a point of picking up a copy of Charlie H this evening at the airport ... as usual it goes out of it's way to equally offend just about everybody and long may it continue :ok:

As for the police and no go areas.....whilst the Municipal Police tend to tread a bit carefully on occasions you really really seriously do not want to be on the CRS's most wanted list....those men and women can be very polite and actually quite charming when not provoked but once given the "go" can be somewhat less tactful and more, er, robust than the likes of the SPG ( some here will know what I'm on about..) I suspect more than a few doors are going to be kicked in in the next few days.

foresight
7th Jan 2015, 21:41
In response we must fight them. And we must laugh, ridicule and ultimately disrespect them. Fanatics, as Amos Oz said, don’t really do jokes. There cannot be peaceful coexistence with those who are want to return to a fantasy of the seventh century. They brook no dissent. They fear laughter. Rushdie has spoken of how religion, all religion, deserves “our fearless disrespect”. Some have died for this. The least we can do is carry on being disrespectful.

Rushdie, The Guardian (and Gertrude).
This must give succour to the atheist zealots. Blame it on religion in general, not just one misguided politicised creed.

tartare
7th Jan 2015, 21:42
OK lurking journos who read these threads.
Time to go and suggest the idea at your editorial meetings.
Protests and vigils are one thing - but running the cartoons is a gigantic raised finger to anyone who tries to intimidate with violence.

AlphaZuluRomeo
7th Jan 2015, 21:43
The French will not take this lying down - they don't do things by halves when it comes to dealing with attacks on the armed forces and police.
I do hope so!

Meanwhile, Front National will gather more votes for many reasons related to today's attack.
And I'm afraid you're right, there. I resent that, because somehow, it would mean hate won something today.

I look forward to Mme. Le Pen's election victory.
Well, Mr Smith, if you don't mind (or even I you do), being French myself I certainly don't look forward to that!
And I don't think the fine gentlemen and lady murdered today would have either.

What happened today was the worst terror attack in France since the 60's. Very sad, but let's not forget:
As the IRA said during the Troubles "we only have to get lucky once, the authorities have to be lucky every time".

Which is precisely what they want. Do you really think that would help in any way?

Turning people against moderate muslims is the aim of these attacks.
^^ this.

Now, I think I'll go pull my old albums from Cabu's "Le grand Duduche" and (try to) have a good laugh, that was his (their) weapon. :ok:

AZR

PS: Should anyone wonder, I'm neither muslim nor peace&love groupy.
PPS: The 3 attackers are identified. Let's catch them now (if not already done). +1 west lakes.

sitigeltfel
7th Jan 2015, 21:52
A few days ago Merkel and her supporters were vilifying peaceful protests against the Islamification of Europe. Cathedrals and other buildings turned off their lights to show solidarity with Islam in the face of what they called "right wing scum".
They sought to deny the right of free speech to PEGIDA, then go clamouring in support of Charlie Hebdo for expressing it.

Well, the lights went out for twelve innocent people in Paris this morning, the difference being that they do not have the luxury of being turned on again.

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 21:55
Merkel looked very uncomfortable tonight standing beside Cameron giving statements on the Paris attack, between a rock and a hard place. Criticising Germanys far right protests and then condemning todays activities.

oldchina
7th Jan 2015, 21:58
Christians, Muslims etc. are all the same. You are trained to obey orders from above just like the Nazis. Different objectives, but the same religious command and control mechanism.
If the old guy with the beard sitting upstairs on a cloud orders you to kill the infidel or press the red nuclear button, I'm sure you will. In his name, of course.

Low Flier
7th Jan 2015, 22:05
The usual Islamophobic bile from the usual bigots on hard-right hate-sites is to be expected.

A rather more intelligent response has been shown by some cartoonists. This one is, so far, my favourite:
http://s9.postimg.org/bqvvb0gxb/Je_Suis_Charlie.jpg
For those who know so little about the Middle East that they can't read Arabic, it translates into French as Je Suis Charlie.

Hussar 54
7th Jan 2015, 22:05
I really am at a total loss to understand how some of you posting on here appear to be providing excuses for these sub-humans…. And those expressing their outrage at today’s events being accused of racist and nazi-like opinions….

Whether Christian, Sikh, Jewish or Muslim, these people, today, are plain and simple murderers and should be considered and treated as such….

No blame to the security forces – how can you possibly identify / monitor / eliminate these people in a country of almost 60 million people and including about 5 million other muslims ??

But can’t help thinking of the irony that it was France who sowed the seeds of today’s ‘ muslim problems ‘ in the 1970’s when they feted and provided asylum to Khomeini before his return to Iran, where he became the founder of radical Islam….

But forget history….It teaches us nothing, even when it should….

And today is time to forget about being politically correct and time for oh-so-holier-than-thou politicos and intellectuals to shut the **** up about the alleged benefits of multi-culturalism…..

I think OFSO is on the right lines, although I’m not too sure about ideas for dress laws….On the other hand, I do agree that the time has come to make ALL ethnic groups conform one way or another to the culture and laws of the country in which they have chosen to live….And then make it very, very difficult and uncomfortable for those who have chosen to live in Europe but have chosen not to conform and integrate….

To OFSO’s suggestions, I’ll add

- Immediate, non-negotiable deportation, back to the country of which they hold passports for ALL holders of foreign passports found guilty of criminal offences….Supposed Human Rights and EU laws or not, kick them out….Not five or ten years in the tax payer funded prison system….

- No more tax payer funded government leaflets explaining in 30+ languages how to claim Social Security benefits, as we have here in France….

- No more tax payer funded translators in schools and, one of my particular hates, tax payer funded public defenders and translators in courts to assist alleged criminals….

Or, being politically correct, as most of our politicos require us to be these days, perhaps when captured we can simply prove how multi-cultural we are by treating today’s murderers to the same type of justice that many muslim states hand out to their fellow muslim murderers and drug dealers….

Perhaps, even, we should show how well advanced our multi-culturalism in Europe has become and offer the same justice to all muslims found guilty of crimes in European countries – you know, chop off their hands for shoplifting and car theft, etc….One hundred lashes for drinking alcohol and using recreational drugs, etc….

But I suppose that this would never happen – Frau Merkel reckons I’m racist to even think about it….

Europe - Thousands protest against Germany's 'anti-Islam' rallies - France 24 (http://www.france24.com/en/20150106-record-turnout-anti-islam-merkel-plea-pegida-germany/)

wiggy
7th Jan 2015, 22:07
Sitigeltfel :ok:

Yep, was it Monday or Tuesday's AM euro news (well there's sod all else on French TV at 6 am) was proudly showing footage of the anti PEGIDA marches in the likes of Dresden, with some very interesting/naive banners on display, now this.......

Europe is now treading a very fine line and some hard choices are going to have to be made....But I must admit I agree with AZR that that the last thing anybody needs is the likes of darling Marine winning an election as a result.

P.S. Just heard #1 daughter was one of several thousand students out on the streets tonight in a certain French city in support of "Charlie".:D :D :D

Low Flier
7th Jan 2015, 22:12
Another good non-Neanderthal response, this time having a wider dig at censorship in general:
http://s12.postimg.org/m5tybbu0d/JSC.jpg

AlphaZuluRomeo
7th Jan 2015, 22:14
Low Flier :ok::ok:

http://s22.postimg.org/h23grb53l/rassemblement_a_paris_mercredi_7_janvier.jpg

Espada III
7th Jan 2015, 22:20
There is a world of difference between followers of any religion who go about their lives quietly, doing what they need to do without disturbing others (about 99%) of adherents and minority who get the 'hump' at any slight or consider their way is the only way and take action to enforce their 'right'.

The acts today are about Muslim infiltration into the West. These acts would be, should be condemned and abhorred everywhere including Muslim countries. Yes Charlie Hebdo was a bit severe in its satire, but if you stand on a pedestal you become target. Religion is a pedestal itself so deserves the scrutiny given to it by believers of it, other religions and non-believers.

Whilst not in the same league, passionate observers of all religions would take exception if their main deity and prophet was the subject of satire. Strangely, if they were so strong in their faith it should not matter, but it is like a personal insult, to be avenged. The answer of course is to follow the teachings if not the beliefs of Rabbi Akiva "What is hurtful to you do not do to anyone else". If you don't want to be murdered don't poke fun at Islam. By all means comment that it seems to have more than its fair share of vicious murderers but to fan the flames is asking for trouble. Voltaire said that he would defend to his death the right for you to say something with which he disagreed but there are ways of saying it.

This was a terrible act and no one in the paper deserved that death. Those responsible cannot provide any justification for their actions. However we are all human. You start pulling my chain and I will react eventually. You do not know how short and in which direction my chain needs to be pulled before I do something you will regret, even if someone else would have shrugged it off.

Charlie Hebdo kept pulling the chain. Many Muslims would have ignored it, many did; three did not.

piperboy84
7th Jan 2015, 22:23
The perpetrators of this dastardly attack need to be caught, convicted and given stiff sentences, preferably a death sentence. The folks that ran this magazine Charlie Hebdo held themselves to be fair minded and irreverent purveyors of political satire fiercely defending their right to publish, and the public’s right to read, material that may have be deemed insulting by less tolerant people or groups, they claimed to poke fun at and ridicule any and all ethnic, national, political or religious groups, all this under the banner of free speech which is just fine with me.

However, the reality may entirely different, one of the magazines own cartoonists a guy called Siné (1) wrote a piece that poked fun at public individuals regarding their supposed stereotypical ethno-religious traits which did not sit well with the magazine’s editor Philipe Val(2), this is strange considering the magazines mocking of religious groups was the fodder for a good part of the its output and notoriety. Siné was ordered to write a letter of apology regarding the perceived religious slight or be fired, he was chastised for “crossing the line”. Interestingly Val, the editor appeared to be of the opinion that there is an un-codified “boundary” when insults are directed at one particular religion, but no such line exits when it comes to publishing insulting caricatures or canards of others. Ultimately Sine refused to apologize and was fired, his termination was cheered on by leading French and international intellectual “elites” who were silent when Siné received death threats, most if not all, of the individuals and groups doing the cheering and threatening of Siné were co-religionists with the targets of the original perceived religious slight (or “hate” as Bernard-Henry Levy called it) and who ironically hold themselves out publicly as fervent defenders of free speech. You've got to love what intellectual dandy and champion of tolerance Henry Levy said in support of the firing of Siné from Charlie Hebdo, he sanctimoniously declared that:

"once again, once too often, Siné has crossed the line between humor and insult, caricature and hatred”

So there you have it, no free speech (or job) for Siné at the offices of Charlie Hebdo but gainful employment for the mockers of everyone and everything else (with one ethno-religious group being the sole exception it would appear).

So is Charlie Hebdo magazine an even handed bastion of free speech that championed the public’s rights to an open society in defiance of intolerance and threats? Or is that all a masquerade, and it is really just a fire starting propagandist outfit with an agenda? Either way nobody deserved to, or should have to die. But if Charlie Hebdo selectively targeted certain religions for demonization and ridicule while deliberately shielding others from the same treatment in the manner it appears they have done, the magazine would be branded a "hate group" in most western countries, a designation the likes of Henry-Levy and the editor of Charlie Hebdo itself appeared enthusiastic to label others with.

Condolences to the dead, especially the cop.

(1) Siné - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9)
(2) Philippe Val - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Val)

Low Flier
7th Jan 2015, 22:27
http://s24.postimg.org/z068tav79/CH10.jpg

wiggy
7th Jan 2015, 22:33
espana

To be fair Charlie regularly yanked the chain of just about everybody, yes Islam got a bit of attention but so did Christianity in general, the Catholics especially, including the Pope...often featured on the front page... and they had a special place in their hearts for the French political classes. Even Mr Hollande was regularly given a good kicking on their front page (well he is an easy target).

Low Flier
7th Jan 2015, 22:35
http://s2.postimg.org/gdu7ioggp/Voleronts.jpg

Sallyann1234
7th Jan 2015, 22:58
Low Flier
I think your Arabic text, and others, came from here:

http://www.charliehebdo.fr/index.html

pigboat
7th Jan 2015, 23:03
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s526x395/10917038_10152716310833473_4974789988403594353_n.jpg?oh=fbe6 72283b551a0c95e711f280b80744&oe=5520BA87

galaxy flyer
7th Jan 2015, 23:12
The French do continue to possess the Force de Frappe, non?

GF

wiggy
7th Jan 2015, 23:33
Oui..........

glad rag
7th Jan 2015, 23:34
I seem to remember a previous french leader signifying that it was there to be used in the event of a major terrorist attack.

Sop_Monkey
7th Jan 2015, 23:43
Very sad indeed but not unexpected.

The only way to beat these b:mad:s is to go in hard and get them before they can cause more mayhem. Root them out like a cancer. Don't just sit and wait for these cowards to strike. Nothing will be done of course. All too late as this vermin should have been given more attention years ago. France was lost years ago, to these c:mad:s. The west has shown passive stupidity for too long!.

My the perpetrators boil in pig fat.

I awaiting with interest but not holding my breath, for condemnation from the Islamic community.

El Grifo
7th Jan 2015, 23:48
El G,

So what do you want our politicians to do?

Hey Hicks, the UK could start by manning up to this kind of obscenity instead of being trampled underfoot willingly, by a bunch of fanatical, threatening, medieval thugs. Then progress from there.

Does that help !

watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

MTOW
8th Jan 2015, 00:10
Before anyone overreacts to this perfectly reasonable and measured response to criticism of the prophet Mohammed, I think you all should pause and consider the British in Malaya.

Whatever the f*** that means – for I’m certain we’ll see even more ridiculous comments from the Usual Muslim Apologist Suspects.

Lantern10
8th Jan 2015, 00:18
Hopefully there will be no mercy when these pr##ks are caught.

I like the boil in pig fat idea:D

meadowrun
8th Jan 2015, 00:32
It's all the same arguments over again.


Islam is incompatible in western countries. Too bad, but face reality.


Freighters plowing over from Africa unguided full of 600 mostly young Muslims.


Transport trucks inundated with illegal young Muslim men (maybe one in a thousand is female). If found, they are turned loose to try again and each shipment of food has to be destroyed because they defecate and urinate while in the trucks.


It never ends and must be seen not as illegal immigration but as invasion. They try to come because they have failed in their own countries, their countries are failures and too many are out to try to cause change in new countries to their own preferences of life and cause havoc in the process. Yes, yes, there are a big bunch of ordinary people among Muslims but those ordinaries need to take a stand if they wish normal lives and not be afraid of the Imams and their cohorts who intend to keep calling the shots for that community. The agenda of that group is not beneficial to Europe and Britain, it is only beneficial to their own goals.


Someone has to clear their vision, wipe away mind cobwebs,get a backbone, take affirmative actions - face reality and deal with it!

onetrack
8th Jan 2015, 00:47
The Islamisation of the West is firmly under way. Constant, unfettered immigration, with ever-lower immigration controls is the trojan horse used by the Islamists, and the sword they wield is terrorism.

With every terror attack, that is "defending the honour of Allah", comes an increasingly mealy-mouthed response by political leaders too frightened to directly address the problem - the problem that Islam is not just a religion.
It is an ingrained culture of violence, murder, suppression and total domination - backed by constant and indiscriminate murder, backed by a God of Hatred. Islam kills more of its own, than any other group.

The problem is one that is not going to go away. What will happen, if Western political leaders don't take firm action to prevent the totally unfettered spread of Islamisation and its core aim of festering hatred in the West, is that extreme right-wing groups will rapidly gain millions of followers, and civil war will start with indiscriminate bombing of mosques and attacks on anyone recognised as worshipping Islam.

On that basis, "moderate" Islamics should be fearful of the consequences of ignoring the radicals in their midst that they constantly tolerate, that they make excuses for, and that they make exceptions for.

TURIN
8th Jan 2015, 01:03
So, what is to be done?

Genocide?

Really?
Again?

I genuinely would like some of the more aggressive JBers to actually say it.

Tens of thousands, some say hundreds of thousands were killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and numerous other places.
Do you really want that in Europe, tomorrow, the day after, next week?

No?

Three murderous ba:mad:rds are three murderous ba:mad:rds whatever their religion/cult.

But lets not worry about that eh? Lets just kill everyone who doesn't "fit".

Now, where have I heard that before?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
8th Jan 2015, 01:16
Straw Man argument, Turin.

Other than the usual couple of suspects, genocide is not being advocated. Indeed, it is any suggestion of controls being equated by the PC brigade to "and the next step is genocide" which had led to this situation in the first place.

There is no need for any further laws. There are quite enough examples of rampant lawbreaking being ignored, and Police response being suppressed/diverted for political ends, to see that the problem is that existing laws not being enforced is the issue. Rotherham*? FGM? 'Honour' killings? Birmingham* schools? Tower Hamlets elections? the list is extensive. Why won't ultrasound technicians tell mothers the gender of the foetus any more? Action is being suppressed by the politicians, local and national.

* and a bunch of other places, details of which are being kept quiet.

IBMJunkman
8th Jan 2015, 02:53
Newspapers

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/charlie-hebdo-front-pages

Cartoonists

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/heartbreaking-cartoons-from-artists-in-response-to-the-ch#.xdkJa27ZE

prospector
8th Jan 2015, 03:20
Not suprising where they,the perpetrators of this massacre, get sympathy from in this country


Paris terror attacks: Derek Fox slammed for 'disgusting' Facebook post - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11383623)

fitliker
8th Jan 2015, 03:30
The old Paris knew how to throw a party. They used to pile up Protestants and burn them in piles in the streets.

svhar
8th Jan 2015, 03:34
Breivik was not an Arab. The school massacres in the USA were not made by Arabs. There are rotten apples everywhere.

However, I am certain that Muslims cannot blend with people of other religions. It only gets worse, more and more fugitives arrive from there every day.They cannot live in their Muslim countries but when they get here they want to change OUR countries into Muslim countries. Are they really OUR problem? Let the other Muslim countries take care of them. Their religion, their problem. Then they could at least do their honour killings legally.

Flying Binghi
8th Jan 2015, 03:51
Where's the islamic Dave Allen when yer need him..:)

Constant ridicule worked against them christian religious nutters. A mere 40 years and now Dave Allen wouldn't raise an eyebrow...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk

Skeleton
8th Jan 2015, 05:35
The leaders of Islam need to tell us and more importantly there own followers that this behavior on foreign soil is completely unacceptable and condemn it. They as usual though will do that but also remind us anti-Islamic sentiment in the Western world is fueling terrorism. I am sure they would love us all to keep quiet about our feelings toward the religion of peace as there invasion continues.

The politicians seem incapable of standing up to Islamic extremism, if acts like this continue i fear that the decision on how to deal with it will be taken out of there hands.

bosnich71
8th Jan 2015, 06:13
Fox3 ... well said !
Meanwhile in Yemen a car bomb has killed approx. 33 people. F.F.S. these a*******s kill their own as well.

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 06:51
The names of those killed have been released........

One of the police officers has the rank of Brigadier, which in the Police Nationale is roughly equivalent to the military rank of Lieutenant.

- De la rédaction

. Jean Cabut, dit Cabu, dessinateur
. Georges Wolinski, dessinateur
. Stéphane Charbonnier, dit Charb, dessinateur
. Bernard Maris, économiste et chroniqueur
. Bernard Verlhac, dit Tignous, dessinateur
. Philippe Honoré, dit Honoré, dessinateur
. Mustapha Ourrad, correcteur
. Elsa Cayat, psychanalyste et chroniqueuse
. Michel Renaud, ancien directeur de cabinet du maire de Clermont

Hors de la rédaction

. Frédéric Boisseau, agent d'entretien
. Franck Brinsolaro, brigadier au service de la protection
. Ahmed Merabet, agent de police

RatherBeFlying
8th Jan 2015, 06:53
We could call this outrage an auto da fe without the preliminary torture and waterboarding as practiced by the Holy Inquisition and the CIA.

While I look forward to the imminent apprehension of the perps and the rest of their lives contemplating their cell walls, we do not have clean hands.

In 1492 Sultan Bayazid welcomed Jewish refugees from the Spanish Inquisition.

Since the Ottomans retreated from the walls of Vienna in 1683, there was some 230 years of live and let live between the Ottomans and Christian Europe.

Subsequently the Ottomans were faced with Wahhabism in the 18th century. It was every bit as nasty then as it is today and the Ottomans firmly brought it under control.

The current problem began with the Goeben bringing the Ottoman Empire into WWI on the losing side.

Subsequent Jewish immigration into the Palestine Mandate and ongoing dispossession of the locals, Christian and Muslim, has gotten us very much in the hair of Muslim opinion.

Since the Iraq Enterprise and various immolations of wedding parties and other innocents (and a minuscule portion of bad actors), Muslim grievance has increased as we are even more in their hair.

Easily as many innocent Palestinians have been killed since 9/11 as those in the WTC. That puts their proportional casualty toll some 100 times higher than the US has suffered.

We need to get out of their hair.

The US would vastly benefit from resettling Israelis in the arid SW where Israeli enterprise and expertise could be put to good use and be appreciated.

Other Israelis could continue to immigrate to Europe as many have already been doing as they have read the writing on the wall.

The real problem is the settlement fundamentalists who are becoming an ever larger segment of the voting population through birthrate and the emigration of the more sensible.

Unfortunately the Protestant fundamentalists in the US insist on shipping gigabucks and weaponry to sustain the settlement enterprise.

It's not sustainable and the end is not going to be pretty.

In the meantime, Muslim grievance and outrages will continue, but the casualty ratio will remain in the range of 1000:1.

Pinky the pilot
8th Jan 2015, 06:55
F.F.S. these a*******s kill their own as well.

They tend to kill more of their own than any other 'group.' (for want of a better term.)

It is more than a pity that their murderous activities are not confined to their own. I doubt very much if many people in the west would care then!

Some would, of course.

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 07:06
Easily as many innocent Palestinians have been killed since 9/11 as those in the WTC. That puts their proportional casualty toll some 100 times higher than the US has suffered.

Why focus on that figure?

How many Muslims have been slaughtered by other Muslims in internecine strife since 9/11? Millions.

Why resettle the Jews? they were there long before the Muslims.

Your solution seems to be to get rid of the result, rather than its cause.

But, we know where you are coming from. :rolleyes:

Hempy
8th Jan 2015, 07:16
RatherBeFlying :ok: That's about the only rational post I've seen
on this thread addressing (part of) the issue.

The other part is that unfortunately the religion subject to discussion also seems to promote a heavy reliance on violence to advance its means.

In Scripture.

Of course it's been argued that Christians (etc) are just as guilty historically of committing violence and shouldn't throw stones inside glass houses. My rebuttal to that argument is that it's 2015. There only seems to me one group who still think it's the middle ages.

There's no answer though, and events in the Middle East at the moment seem to suggest that things will go one of two ways. They will kill each other until one group is left standing and will then keep to themselves living in the paradise of their wonderful 'Caliphate', or they wont.

If they don't things will get ugly. For them, really.

ORAC
8th Jan 2015, 07:21
Charlie Hebdo: the truths that ought to be self-evident but still aren’t (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/nick-cohen/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-the-truths-that-ought-to-be-self-evident-but-still-arent/)

J. S. Mill - On Liberty (https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/mill/john_stuart/m645o/chapter2.html)

Andu
8th Jan 2015, 07:36
We need to get out of their hair.I think we've left it too late for that, for the demands of the extremists now include all lands that were once under Islamic rule. That would include much of eastern Europe and Spain, to say nothing of parts of any number of cities in western Europe that have become Muslim enclaves and therefore, in their minds 'theirs'.
.

Stanwell
8th Jan 2015, 08:09
Well then, we need to get Turkey on the case to sort out their former Empire.
What's that?
Oh, I see. They're too busy trying to join the EU?
Alright. As you were, chaps.

Hempy
8th Jan 2015, 08:12
Why resettle the Jews? they were there long before the Muslims

The Jews who were there before the Muslims were kicked out by Romans and stayed away for a Millenia or so (until Christians started mass murdering them and they wanted to go home). In the meantime the Muslims had settled in nicely, thank you, and were just as unhappy about being kicked out of their tenth generation homes and kicked out of their country as the Jews doing it to them were about it happening to them a few years before.

Israel is a nation state recognised by the UN with no official religion. Good luck trying to 'move them out'.

..although I think GWB would have been keen to give it a try instead if Cheney had told him to.

El Grifo
8th Jan 2015, 08:46
Going back to bugged on the right's post.

Mr Echo, I'm sure most of you buy your mothers flowers as well but when you move to a country, voluntarily or as a refugee, it is only at a minimum good manners not to abuse the hospitality. If it doesn't suit the way you would like things to be, go somewhere else. In other words, love it or leave it.

Pure, simple and elegant.

El G.

jolihokistix
8th Jan 2015, 08:48
@Hempy, quote: "The Jews who were there before the Muslims were kicked out by Romans..."

Bloody Romans. Always someone has to mention the Romans. :ugh:

ORAC
8th Jan 2015, 09:18
The Corner: Islamic Radicals Are Not “Homegrown” (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/395924/islamic-radicals-are-not-homegrown-andrew-c-mccarthy)

“Lone wolf” is up there too, but “homegrown terrorism” is surely among the most ill-conceived and thus self-defeating terms in national security. In reporting that the French government believes it has identified three gunmen who carried out the terrorist attack that killed a dozen people in Paris today, the New York Times theorizes (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0):Officials said late Wednesday that the suspects had been identified and that two were brothers. They were identified as Said and Cherif Kouachi, 32 and 34, and Hamyd Mourad, 18. French news reports said the brothers had been born in Paris, raising the prospect that homegrown Muslim extremists were responsible. There is no “homegrown” Islamic terrorism in the West. Being born in a Western country, or being resident in one at the time of “radicalization,” does not mean one’s terrorism is “homegrown.” What grows a terrorist in Paris – or New York, London, Madrid, Hamburg, etc. – is not his environs; it is Islamic supremacist ideology. That ideology is not Western; indeed, it is virulently hostile to the West. That it has been injected here does not make it of here.

What’s more, by its own terms, the doctrine is preternaturally concerned with whether the territory one finds himself in is a Muslim or non-Muslim land – the difference controls what a Muslim’s obligations are under Islamic law. In fact, adherents are instructed by leading sharia scholars (like the Muslim Brotherhood’s Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi) and Islamist demagogues (like Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdogan) to participate in a strategy known as voluntary apartheid. That is, they are urged to settle in Muslim communities and, when a critical mass is reached, to begin pressuring the host government to give them de facto autonomy to govern themselves in accordance with sharia rather than the civil law. They are exhorted to resist assimilation in the West, and are abetted in this resistance by mosques and Islamic community centers. Indeed, Erdogan has brayed that pressuring Muslims to assimilate in a non-Muslim host country is “a crime against humanity (http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=24314).”

The objective of Islamic supremacism in the West is precisely to create an alien cultural fortress, infiltrated in but isolated from the host country, disdainful of Western culture. The radicalism this breeds is not “homegrown”; it is injected into the host country for the precise purpose of destroying the things about the host country that make it home.

Referring to this ideology as “homegrown” is an insidious manifestation of willful blindness. It suggests that it must be something about the Western host country that “radicalizes” Muslims – something, anything, other than Islam. It undergirds the fiction that the resulting radicals are “violent extremists” who, if not out and out nihilists or lunatics, must be motivated by oppressive Western policies and historical Western sins – not by an aggressive ideology of conquest that commands them to make war on non-Muslims.

That is, the notion of “homegrown terrorism” obscures the fact that terrorism against the West is inspired by a supremacist interpretation of Islam, the principles of which are mainstream in the Middle East and well known – albeit unspoken of – in the West. It enables the self-defeating pretension that those principles are seamlessly compatible with the Western culture that Islamic supremacists seek to vanquish.

Jihadist terror is not homegrown in the West. It is grown by purveyors of a hostile, alien ideology whose precise purpose is to destroy our home.

El Grifo
8th Jan 2015, 09:22
Quote from a developed muslim today. " kill the blasphemy taboo. Do not kill people"

El G.

Older and Wiser
8th Jan 2015, 09:24
From what I have actually read from the Koran if Mohammed returned today this lot of fundamentalist would probably brand him an apostate, put him in an orange suit and behead him.

:ugh:

SOPS
8th Jan 2015, 09:26
An imam was just interview on LBC radio in the UK. He said that free speech should be banned, so Muslims don't get upset.:ugh::ugh::ugh:.

anotherthing
8th Jan 2015, 09:43
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/mcs/media/images/80128000/png/_80128626_banksy.png

Fat Magpie
8th Jan 2015, 09:47
A second attack this morning no fatalities. EDIT sadly a female police officer has died.

wiggy
8th Jan 2015, 09:53
Most/all UK media seem to be doing a good job this morning of discussing why the Charlie Hebdo cartoons were offensive to some without ever showing any of the "offensive" items............

parabellum
8th Jan 2015, 09:59
While I look forward to the imminent apprehension of the perps and the rest of their lives contemplating their cell walls, we do not have clean hands.

Nor can we continually try to live in and appease 500+ year old history.

Hempy - Your perception of history is, to say the least, novel!

maliyahsdad2
8th Jan 2015, 10:01
Reports that the French Policewoman shot this morning has died.

SOPS
8th Jan 2015, 10:04
Yes, sadly, the police women has died. The war has well and truely begun.

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 10:11
Devices described as "training grenades", probably thunderflashes, have been used against a Mosque in Le Mans.

hifly787
8th Jan 2015, 10:12
RIP to the poor victim's and their families.

ExSp33db1rd
8th Jan 2015, 10:19
Torque Tonight, supposing they did that, how long do you think it would be before they started fighting between themselves?

Probably the best thing that could happen ?

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 10:31
FM,

Gunman arrested in Paris after police officers seriously wounded | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2901670/Gunman-arrested-Paris-police-officers-seriously-wounded.html)

Although an arrest has been made, various news feeds say it is not the gunman, who is still at large.

Hempy
8th Jan 2015, 10:40
Your perception of history is, to say the least, novel!

Do tell, o'wise one. Please educate us all with your enlightened knowledge on the subject.

Low Flier
8th Jan 2015, 10:40
Although an arrest has been made, various news feeds say it is not the gunman, who is still at large.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXuBnz6vtuI

rh200
8th Jan 2015, 10:55
Bloody Romans. Always someone has to mention the Romans

Yes and I hear its was one of GWB ancestors who was running the empire then.:p.
Anyway, you can keep looking at the past different ways and pointing fingers, but it won't do any good. For example you could say if the European Christians weren't so weak arsed back then and supported the Crusades a bit earlier, and fellow their fellow middle eastern Christians being converted, we wouldn't have this problem.

There is no right and wrong, there is only your own perspective and how far your prepared to go to protect what you believe in.

TURIN
8th Jan 2015, 10:58
Yes, sadly, the police women has died. The war has well and truely (sic) begun.

Has this latest crime been attributed to another Muslim fanatic?

RUCAWO
8th Jan 2015, 11:02
North African, AK, body armour, takes a lot of working ot that one :rolleyes: Could be an on the run IRA member.

maliyahsdad2
8th Jan 2015, 11:02
No, Just a man of "North African Appearance." Probably not a Christian one though!

Andu
8th Jan 2015, 11:04
We (the West) have been at war for some time now with Islamic extremism. The problem has been that until the events in Paris, very few in the West, particularly our political leaders, have been able to bring themselves to admit this unassailable fact.

Even after Paris, (and after the next, and the next attack that will follow Paris as sure as night follows day), there will still be many, particularly of the Left and who label themselves as 'the intelligentsia' (which means they think they are possessed of a superior intellect to the rest of us and therefore 'know better'), who will still refuse to accept it.

There's an old truism that when Western armies go to war, they always fight that war with the tactics of the war before it. World War 1 was probably the most stark example of this, but I think the same could be said to have applied to most wars of the 20th century.

Having said that, if we accept we are at war - (have our political leadership done so? Sadly, I don't think so, at least not beyond mouthing empty platitudes about 'death cults' etc.) - our political leadership will have to accept that a new set of rules will be required to fight an enemy that is, (let's face the uncomfortable fact), in large part, already among us, many of them holding citizenship of our countries, some even born here. And those who are not among us are not neatly positioned in a nation state. So we will have to draw up a new set of rules to fight this war, rules that will send the heads of our professional Left into a spin worthy of that scene in 'The Exorcist'.

It will take a real leader to bring this off. And I see precious few among the current crop who've shown any sign of the kind of leadership required. Maybe even a 'wartime' government made up of both sides of politics (as has happened in earlier wars) might be required. Whatever we do, we simply HAVE to convince the human rights people that, as in earlier wars, some rights simply must be surrendered, temporarily, to ensure national (or should that be cultural) survival.

Convincing the Left and the human rights activists of this will be quite a task.

TURIN
8th Jan 2015, 11:10
Straw Man argument, Turin.

Other than the usual couple of suspects, genocide is not being advocated. Indeed, it is any suggestion of controls being equated by the PC brigade to "and the next step is genocide" which had led to this situation in the first place.

Really? How naive can we be?

Genocide is exactly what is being advocated. It always is.
The extremists exist on both sides, the trouble is, theirs have a dogmatic religion to back it up and scare the [email protected] out of anyone of their faith who object.

Ours are sneaky, they creep up on a democratic society and seize it. Before you know it we have the night of long knives, and death camps springing up all over the place. History has proven that this can happen. When people become as afraid of one section of society as many are becoming of Islam, the loud mouth fanatics step in.

Straw man argument? My Aunt Sally!

Once the far right really get going you will really see the ability of the straw man.

TURIN
8th Jan 2015, 11:12
North African, AK, body armour, takes a lot of working ot that one Could be an on the run IRA member.

Have you got a source for that, I haven't seen that reported anywhere on TV news.

RUCAWO
8th Jan 2015, 11:16
This morning at 8:00 am a man opened fire with automatic weapons avenue Pierre Brossollette on municipal police


A Montrouge municipal policewoman was severely wounded and is in critical condition; Another man was wounded , perhaps a municipal agent. The gunman fled , one person was arrested


Seven witnesses are being questioned by the police


The Interior Minister arrives on site


We can not yet establish some connection between the shooting and yesterday Charlie Hebdo.

Edit: the press now reports "two police officers in critical condition".

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...2-en-direct-Charlie-Hebdo-Paris-fusillade.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2015/01/07/01016-20150107LIVWWW00152-en-direct-Charlie-Hebdo-Paris-fusillade.php)

Edit: the attacker was "dressed in black, had a flack jacket and an automatic rifle"; he is supposed to be of "African origin" with "a shaven head". He is supposedly known by the police with 9 different convictions to his name.
A commune worker also seems to have been wounded in the attack.

SOPS
8th Jan 2015, 11:16
There you go TURIN

Female police officer shot dead in Montrouge, Paris | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2901670/Gunman-arrested-Paris-police-officers-seriously-wounded.html)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30721677

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 11:24
Could the Montrouge shooting be a pre-planned ambush?

The gunman attacked just as the police arrived at the scene of a minor (staged?) traffic accident.

ORAC
8th Jan 2015, 11:24
Greta Berlin, organizer of the Gaza flotilla & co-founder of Free Gaza, says #CharlieHebdo was an Israeli attack (https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/552942832940359681/photo/1) :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6xyjj3CcAAD4B-.png

At least the comments are better...

Fox3WheresMyBanana
8th Jan 2015, 11:26
Turin,
care to answer my point?
Or make any comment on the list of examples I gave?
One of the essential principles of justice is that it is blind to the accused.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/HK_Central_Statue_Square_Legislative_Council_Building_n_Them is_s.jpg

UK law isn't and hasn't been, in practice, for some time.

May I also add that I think that continued fear and inaction in the way you advocate makes it more likely that the right wing extremists will step into the justicial 'void'.

ORAC - excellent response tweet to the above
Steve Sayers RT≠OKok ‏@stevesayers1 13h13 hours ago
[email protected]_Rosenberg just shows free speech is wasted on some folk...she can say it, but she's a ****wit

Ranger One
8th Jan 2015, 11:35
Not one single member of the spineless British press has had the courage to reprint the controversial cartoons. This is a disgrace.

Fortunately the German press has more backbone:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6zAWy6IMAAYWRN.jpg

http://media3.policymic.com/YmJlN2MwNzNhMyMvdloxMTFod094YUM4RmNwS1FwUnJMOUt4R3N3PS8yMng2 NToxMDAyeDY4My84NDB4NTMwL2ZpbHRlcnM6cXVhbGl0eSg3MCkvaHR0cDov L3MzLmFtYXpvbmF3cy5jb20vcG9saWN5bWljLWltYWdlcy95b3VlbWI2b3U1 Z2lncm11cG9iMzB4aDh2OXNxamNpaGRqeXFseW4yZmVxdXB4eHlib3d0eDVk cXdlcDJpY25xLmpwZw==.jpg

I'm printing that on a t-shirt, and wearing it with pride - and with two raised fingers.

They dislike 'blasphemy' so much they're willing to murder for it. Fine. Give them more blasphemy than they know what to do with. The best response to this is to multiply the Charlie Hebdo cartoons a millionfold. Every street corner, every bus, every flight.

'Blasphemy' just went from 'disrespectful' to 'civic duty'.

TURIN
8th Jan 2015, 11:56
SOPS. Thanks for the links. Not that I trust the Mail of course and the BBC one just said from 'a source'.

Could easily be linked I agree, or a copycat opportunist. Either way, another despicable act.

TURIN
8th Jan 2015, 11:58
Well, have you noticed the inheritance which the Liberal Left has bequeathed to us?

You give the 'liberal left' too much credit. A false flag argument is far from new is it?

Thomas coupling
8th Jan 2015, 12:09
The Jihadist call for "Lone Wolves" attacks has been answered globally.
This is something we Westerners are going to experience on an increasing frequency, I am afraid.

Did you notice how quickly the French Authorities got to grips with naming the perpetrators? Doesn't that tell you that they have a network of connections where they are monitoring this 'background' activity constantly but are unable to openly act on it - in advance, because of public backlash and human rights.

I therefore suspect that our "Human Rights" will have to be eroded again and again if we are to thwart future attacks or atleast make a dent in them. Intelligence must be working overtime in all Western countries.

The UK is the most surveilled country in the world - for once, I agree with this policy. Maybe - just maybe it will fractionally improve our chances of survival as individuals over the coming years. Intercepting e-mails and internet comms is another PLUS as far as I am concerned (provided it is done properly).
[I know this is already ongoing at NSA and GCHQ and has been for possibly 10yrs+ but they need to ramp it up now.

Finally, I want to say one thing to our Muslim friends who live and work amongst us.

This is another nail in the coffin of relationships between us. I wish it wasn't but this is happening as we speak.

A question for all British muslims then: Why hasn't your community leadership/spokespersons/Imam/Allamah - spoken out en mass? Why haven't they shouted from the roof tops that they disapprove of this and wash their hands of these barbarians? Their silence is DEAFENING.
{What does this say about their thoughts and feelings?}:suspect:

maliyahsdad2
8th Jan 2015, 12:18
?I Still Think You?re An Evil SOB?: Hannity Clashes With Radical Imam (http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/01/07/hannity-clashes-radical-imam-anjem-choudary-following-charlie-hebdo-terror-attack)

TURIN
8th Jan 2015, 12:42
Turin,
care to answer my point?
Or make any comment on the list of examples I gave?


There is no need for any further laws. There are quite enough examples of rampant lawbreaking being ignored, and Police response being suppressed/diverted for political ends, to see that the problem is that existing laws not being enforced is the issue. Rotherham*? FGM? 'Honour' killings? Birmingham* schools? Tower Hamlets elections? the list is extensive. Why won't ultrasound technicians tell mothers the gender of the foetus any more? Action is being suppressed by the politicians, local and national.

* and a bunch of other places, details of which are being kept quiet.

Ok here goes.

Rotherham:- Not unique to minority communities. Operation Yewtree and the Jimmy Saville enquiry have taught us that the reluctance of the police to pursue allegations of child (and adult) sexual exploitation is deep rooted.

FGM:- An unspeakable practice. About as difficult to stop as Male GM in 'other' cultures. No argument (straw or otherwise) from me there.

Honour Killings:- A quick google of honour killings convictions (https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=honour%20killings%20convictions) brings up several that have been pursued successfully by the authorities.

Birmingham Schools:- From what I have read the offending institutions have been, and continue to be, dealt with. BBC News - How will government shut out the Trojan Horse? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27024881)
For what it's worth, in my opinion ALL publicly funded schools should be secular. Religion has no place in schools except in social studies and history lessons.

Tower Hamlets:- Currently under review, I'll await the outcome of this one. It is hardly being swept under the carpet.


Why won't ultrasound technicians tell mothers the gender of the foetus any more?:- They will. if asked. They have to. However, the problem is not unique to Muslims. China has banned the practice to avoid the aborting of female foetus'. It is a cultural thing, not religious. In fact if you look into the quran there are deeper cultural issues that predate Islam as to why the parents should not know the sex of their child before birth. That doesn't mean I agree with the practice. But other cultures are equally guilty of the same act. Why isolate Muslims for it?

Action is being suppressed by the politicians, local and national.

* and a bunch of other places, details of which are being kept quiet.

Sorry, that is the voice of a conspiracy theorist. Substitute 'Chemtrails' and that sort of thing will be jumped on from everyone here.





May I also add that I think that continued fear and inaction in the way you advocate makes it more likely that the right wing extremists will step into the justicial 'void'.

Where did I say that? (Now that is Aunt Sally)

Skeleton
8th Jan 2015, 12:51
Mike Echo complete and utter rubbish, that is not what he said and you know it. Islam as a culture needs to condemn this, all of them and they need to stop blaming anti Islamic feelings for not doing so. What happened is totally unacceptable in any society, this is yet another nail in in the coffin of bad feeling toward the religion of peace.

LapSap
8th Jan 2015, 13:06
MikeEcho
I'd like you to look at the video on page 7 ,if you haven't already done so and tell me if you agree with the sentiments expressed by Chaudary. (I realize it is not in relation to this event- I will bring up his latest comments on this topioc shortly).
Do you really have the same beliefs as this guy??
Seriously, I want to believe you are a reasonable person. But please tell me you don't agree with that sort of rubbish?

rgbrock1
8th Jan 2015, 13:10
Sop Monkey wrote:

I awaiting with interest but not holding my breath, for condemnation from the Islamic community.

Have you noticed how deafening the silence is?

rgbrock1
8th Jan 2015, 13:16
Thomas coupling wrote:

A question for all British muslims then: Why hasn't your community leadership/spokespersons/Imam/Allamah - spoken out en mass? Why haven't they shouted from the roof tops that they disapprove of this and wash their hands of these barbarians? Their silence is DEAFENING.
{What does this say about their thoughts and feelings?}

Tacit approval? And, yes, the silence from the greater Muslim community is indeed deafening. As it always is.

maliyahsdad2
8th Jan 2015, 13:21
Thomas coupling wrote:



Tacit approval? And, yes, the silence from the greater Muslim community is indeed deafening. As it always is.

Unless it is a protest against the West or Israel .

Romeo Oscar Golf
8th Jan 2015, 13:40
The Muslim News has now reported the massacre but makes no editorial comment, Islamonline still nothing except a report on the rest of the worlds condemnation.
A comment in either one would be a start.

Thomas coupling
8th Jan 2015, 13:46
Mike Echo: You disappoint me.
Of course I see/saw individual Muslims speaking out at the crime scene or days later at press conferences etc. My message was for the great leaders of Muslim society - globally. You don't see muslim country leaders on TV speaking against this ANYWHERE. Why is that?

I do not profess to understand the lexicon of historic intertwining between our society and the Muslim society. I emphatically broadcast that I am NOT discriminatory in any shape or form (try to believe me with this). I am an athiest and agnostic having been brought up in a very strong religious environment.

BUT

I continue to ask myself this as I grow older and witness more:


Of all societies throughout the world, why is the Muslim society (in my finite knowledge) still partaking in barbaric countermeasures agaianst their own, never mind others; when the smallest issue "offends" their so called belief's.
Death and destruction appears to be the weapon of choice every single time.
I have come to the conclusion that 1000's of years of practice in this regard has made it a genetic default.

I cannot think of any other society where they would have acted as these perpetrators did in Paris, or Pakistan, or Kenya, or Manhattan, or North Ossetia, or Yazidi's. Name me one "societal/politically motivated attack carried out by another non - muslim nation on these horrific scales?

N707ZS
8th Jan 2015, 13:50
Perhaps time to bring the guillotine back out of storage and of course a job for a lady.

G-CPTN
8th Jan 2015, 13:54
So will there be a surge in sales of knitting wool?

rgbrock1
8th Jan 2015, 14:05
Guillotine is too quick. Firing squad is more appropriate. With shooters who are lousy shots.:ok:

Lonewolf_50
8th Jan 2015, 14:11
Isn't worshipping an instrument of torture a bit weird in the first place? You don't have that quite right. The cross, and the crucifix, are symbols. What is worshipped is something else.
Hey! - I can say stuff like that now and not get burned at the stake for it. But a few centuries ago? Indeed. It took a few wars and a lot of other sorts of conflict/disagreement/change in order for this state of play to arrive in our culture. Seems other cultures have yet to go through that process.

Standby Scum
8th Jan 2015, 14:14
http://i.imgur.com/zMQdYa5.jpg

Fox3WheresMyBanana
8th Jan 2015, 14:17
Turin,
some facts

Rotherham Try googling Derby Sex Gang, Rochdale Sex Gang, Oxford Sex Gang, Bristol Sex Gang, etc, etc.
The Select Committee issued a report on 18 October 2014, which claimed that files containing information on alleged failings by the authorities to investigate abuse had been stolen from the office of a Rotherham Council researcher in 2002. The allegations were made in private hearings of the Committee, which concluded that that both the council and South Yorkshire Police had ignored evidence about the scale of the abuse. The Chairman of the Committee, Keith Vaz, said that "The proliferation of revelations about files which can no longer be located gives rise to public suspicion of a deliberate cover-up.
If I'm a conspiracy theorist, I'm in good company then!?

Tower Hamlets
The reason it's this bad is that it's been swept under the carpet for so long. This kind of stuff has been going on since 2006 at least
27 and 28 April 2006 The Times reported that the police were investigating postal vote fraud
in East London where it had been alleged that hundreds of votes had been stolen from
residential tower blocks. The claims had been made by Respect and other parties fighting
local elections in Tower Hamlets where postal vote applications had nearly doubled since
2005
That's from the House of Commons SN03667.pdf

Honour killings
Still a massive failure, combined with huge under-recording of the scale of the problem, which is increasing.

Try looking at the statistics for the UK Forced Marriage Unit, and matching the foreign countries and areas of the UK to a religion the authorities make a habit of never naming.

Sex of Foetus
Rubbish
Can I find out the sex of my baby? - Health questions - NHS Choices (http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1642.aspx?CategoryID=54&)
Some hospitals have a policy of not telling patients the sex of their baby.
and I can confirm that it is policy in, surprise, surprise, areas with significant Muslim populations. My sister had this problem in Derby. They will not tell you even if you're white, thanks to PC (but a white technician may let a white mother-to-be look at the screen as she points to the identifying item, or lack of it.

Birmingham Schools
Allow me to update you, with 7 more schools in, guess where? Tower Hamlets!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/11244547/Seven-schools-in-latest-Trojan-Horse-scandal.html

felixflyer
8th Jan 2015, 14:20
MikeEcho

It would appear, that like most on here you live in a very black and white world when it comes to your understanding of Muslims, their minds and mentalities.

It is not for non-muslims to take the time to understand the minds and mentalities of others when such barbaric events are happening in the name of Islam. Yes there is a lot of islamaphobia or whatever you want to call it and the majority of muslims I know are decent people.

The fact is atrocities are being carried out almost every day around the world and they are being done in the name of that particular religion. Whether you think it is right or wrong that ordinary muslims are being victimised as a result, the fault lies squarely with the perpetrators.

Rather than protesting about being victimised as a result we need to hear muslims protesting about these acts being carried out in the name of their own religion. Especially when it is other muslims getting killed in the middle east?

During the recent war between Isreal and Palestine there were protests in every city. My muslim friends on social media would be constantly speaking up about the slaughter going on. Why don't we see protests similar to this against the slaughter being carried out of both innocent non-muslims here and muslims in the middle east by these terror attacks?

If we were to see more large scale protest condemning these actions then there would be less victimisation against the ordinary moderate peace loving muslim. Why aren't we seeing these in every city like we do against Isreal every time anything happens over there?

Lonewolf_50
8th Jan 2015, 14:20
Fox3 ... well said !
Meanwhile in Yemen a car bomb has killed approx. 33 people. F.F.S. these a*******s kill their own as well.
And should be encouraged to do so.

foresight
8th Jan 2015, 14:22
Of course I see/saw individual Muslims speaking out at the crime scene or days later at press conferences etc. My message was for the great leaders of Muslim society - globally. You don't see muslim country leaders on TV speaking against this ANYWHERE. Why is that?

There are no such leaders, that is not the way Islam 'works'. There are no formal structures as in the Christian churches. Islam is divided and subdivided into sects and sects within sects. Local imams attract loyal followings but there is no formal leadership as such.

Lonewolf_50
8th Jan 2015, 14:28
Genocide is exactly what is being advocated. It always is. By whom? Your penchant for overstatement is noted. Fear mongering may not sell as well as you think.

Thomas coupling
8th Jan 2015, 14:30
Lonewolf: not needed thanks! :ugh:

Felixflyer: Nail on the head :ok:

Foresight: Stop being pedantic - it doesn't suit you:rolleyes:
I mean prime ministers / kings / prince's / sheiks / presidents of Muslim countries should speak out loud on national TV and spread the word:

"Practices like this are poisoning relations between two GREAT societies."

rgbrock1
8th Jan 2015, 14:34
Thomas Coupling wrote:

I mean prime ministers / kings / prince's / sheiks / presidents of Muslim countries should speak out loud on national TV and spread the word:

The color blue doesn't fit you well sir. Because that's the color your face will be if you hold your breath waiting for the above.

Lonewolf_50
8th Jan 2015, 14:34
Let me get this right, you are saying Muslims should kill other Muslims? Sure, why not? Look at this in an unemotional context, if you can.

For the last 20 years, standard NATO strategic posture holds that population pressure, conflicts for resources, and the immigration across the Mediterranean basin as Security Threats to Western Europe via its southern region, which happens to be adjacent to the generally Muslim sphere of influence/cultural bloc. Look at a map if you do not understand what I just wrote there.

If Muslims are so keen on killing people, which appears to be the case these days, then it would be best for European security if a means was devised to ensure that they killed one another rather than someone else.
It's the lesser of two evils, and not it's not pretty, but so was allying with a bloody handed tyrant called Stalin.

You will note that even with major encouragement NOT to do so, in Iraq, local Muslim factions have done a booming business of killing one another since about the time the coalition knocked Saddam out of his box in 2003 ... and there is no end in sight.

Seems they need little to no encouragement from much of anyone. Our aim should be to keep that in their sandbox, and out of ours.

TC:
Lonewolf: not needed thanks! :ugh:
Not sure which of my inputs you directed that towards ... was it this line of discussion?

WhatsaLizad?
8th Jan 2015, 14:49
"Had the French Muslim policeman played dead, he might have lived. "


SS,


Doubtful. These demons seemed to have experience in this line of work. SOP for them would have been to pump a round or two into a potential threat as they fled. Both probably would have done it as they passed by him.


Look at their movement and body language in the scene. They were methodical and precise, there was nothing haphazard, chaotic or confused about them.

pvmw
8th Jan 2015, 14:59
There's not very many examples in the history of the last 100 years where things kicked off without American/British involvement in the region..........Remind us, who started the Iran/Iraq war? Do explain how the US/ British were responsible for that ?

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 15:12
Had the French Muslim policeman played dead, he might have lived.

Having already been shot, and writhing in agony, can you please explain how he was going to achieve that? :ugh:

foresight
8th Jan 2015, 15:41
Foresight: Stop being pedantic - it doesn't suit you
I mean prime ministers / kings / prince's / sheiks / presidents of Muslim countries should speak out loud on national TV and spread the word:

As rgbrock pointed out, you'll be waiting forever.
The only leader with any religious influence is Khameini in Iran. And he is a Shia, while terrorism in Western countries is Sunni. None of the other kings, princes etc would have the slightest effect - possibly the reverse.
Sorry to be pedantic again, just trying to open your eyes to the messy reality.

wings folded
8th Jan 2015, 15:43
Had the French Muslim policeman played dead, he might have lived.One really has to wonder what you are trying to drive at.

The policeman was French, and it would appear that he held the Muslim faith.
He had done his sworn duty as an agent of the police of the French republic, to protect citizens of that republic. He had fired his arm at the vile filth and they had shot back at him, wounding him.

He had carried out his duty as an officer of the peace, and got shot as a result.

Your insinuation that he was in some way remiss in not "playing dead" strikes me as alarming.

I hold nothing but respect for this poor man and his close entourage.

Low Flier
8th Jan 2015, 15:44
Foolish question:
Remind us, who started the Iran/Iraq war?

Good answer:
Easy, on one side Saddam Hussein. A brutal dictator in power thanks to the US. On the other side, a powerful revolution taking place and deeply concerning the same Saddam who feared it would spill over. A revolution that came about due to years of forced rule by America's/Britain's/France's lovechild, The Shah.

Well said, CW!

rgbrock1
8th Jan 2015, 15:46
As far as playing dead while wounded? I invite anyone to be shot with a 7.62x39 mm bullet and then lie there with nary a sound, pretending to be dead.
Doesn't work. Believe me, I know. You get hit by a 7.76mm round and you'll do anything but play dead. (Yell, holler, implore, call on God, etc.)

BOING
8th Jan 2015, 16:47
Many countries have, over the centuries, acted very badly towards peaceful resident minorities. These actions were unjustified and wrong.

The present situation is different since the people that we are involved with are not peaceful residents, they are carrying out what would be acts of war if they were openly sponsored by a national government.

It has been traditionally recognised that not only are the acts of individuals criminal but also that "providing aid or comfort" to the criminals is also blameworthy.

The common link between the criminals and the population that is, fairly or unfairly, perceived as providing their support is Islam. It is quite justified for the home population to interpret lack of criticism of criminal acts by Islamic leaders (and despite convenient smokescreens offered by other posters many do exist) as tacit support and to act appropriately to ensure national security.

There are acts of war of war being carried out against nations in the name of a religion. The followers of a religion should be equated to citizens of a nation, if the leaders of the religion call for war against other nations I think it is justified that those nations should be prepared to carry that war against members of said religion to the full extent. In any war destruction of the infrastructure of the actual combat troops is considered essential and civilian casualties are regretfully expected as part of this end.

As long as Islam is used as a pretext for violence the followers of Islam must make a clear statement on whether their religion or their loyalty to their country of residence is more important to them. If they choose their religion they must accept the implications of this choice including deportation to their original homeland.


.

RJM
8th Jan 2015, 17:07
If they choose their religion they must accept the implications of this choice including deportation to their original homeland.

...and if they are born and bred local citizens?


.

El Grifo
8th Jan 2015, 17:09
Born perhaps, Bred never !

El G.

oldchina
8th Jan 2015, 17:30
The more difficult part is this:

Hands up anyone who has heard a muslim say he supports everyone's right to criticise or make fun of all religions. Including publishing cartoons of the prophet.

I'm not expecting a rush.

Lonewolf_50
8th Jan 2015, 17:30
Well said, CW!Even if utterly wrong. :rolleyes: post hoc ergo propter hoc doesn't usually support sound cause and effect analysis.

The local disputes over the border between Iran and Iraq were already extant before Saddam took over in Iraq. Nobody outside the region had to make them up, in the contemporary context of that conflict when Saddam made his gamble. You can complain that the lines on the map were a cluster, thanks to the Great Game and how empires drew maps, but that's as far as the blame line goes.

ehwatezedoing
8th Jan 2015, 17:58
In meanwhile, the two scum seems to be cornered in a wood.
One has to be pretty dumb to "forget" an identity card inside the first escape car.

ian_bird
8th Jan 2015, 18:07
Je Suis Ahmed

I am not Charlie, I am Ahmed the dead cop. Charlie ridiculed my faith and culture and I died defending his right to do so.

‪#‎JeSuisAhmed‬

foresight
8th Jan 2015, 18:11
The common link between the criminals and the population that is, fairly or unfairly, perceived as providing their support is Islam. It is quite justified for the home population to interpret lack of criticism of criminal acts by Islamic leaders (and despite convenient smokescreens offered by other posters many do exist) as tacit support and to act appropriately to ensure national security.

Perhaps you would like to suggest the names of some of these many leaders you would like to hear from. Names that might actually mean something to the rest of the country.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, there will be very many Muslims throughout Europe who will have been horrified by what they have seen and read over the past days. However they have jobs to do and businesses to run and will carry on doing so without higher thoughts about free speech etc - much like people of other faiths or none. But they will be fearful of nonsense like you have posted.
The pompous spouting of far-fetched ideas, such as yours, of how to resolve the problem of Islamic terrorism can only serve to exacerbate it.

Our two biggest weapons in this fight are the intelligence services and the Muslim community itself. And contrary to the wishes of many on this thread, the latter are not going anywhere.

Krystal n chips
8th Jan 2015, 18:15
By whom? Your penchant for overstatement is noted. Fear mongering may not sell as well as you think

As a statement in, presumably, unintended irony, goes, that takes some surpassing when you read, which you clearly haven't, many of the posts on here declaring "war", "the end of Western Europe", " the uprising of the people" etc, etc ad vomit...and not forgetting, as always with the right wing bigots, the " all Muslims are terrorists" mantra.

As for the silence from the religious leaders......from the 1970's and a well known, at the time, song based on a true and tragic event in Belfast...

"the priests they stood on both sides, the priests they stood behind,
another fight in Jesus name, the blind against the blind ".

And the difference is ?.......for the intellectually dysfunctional on here....non.

Low Flier
8th Jan 2015, 18:16
Je Suis Ahmed

I am not Charlie, I am Ahmed the dead cop. Charlie ridiculed my faith and culture and I died defending his right to do so.

‪#‎JeSuisAhmed‬


Brilliant!:D

Wingswinger
8th Jan 2015, 18:17
No it's not. It's just human.

flying lid
8th Jan 2015, 18:36
A picture is worth a thousand words,

One day, again, soon,

http://bashapedia.pbworks.com/f/1237002618/Lionheart.jpg

Lid

G-CPTN
8th Jan 2015, 18:44
This evening there will be an unlit 300 metre sticky-up (http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/Eiffel-Tower-to-go-dark-in-tribute-to-Paris-attack-victims) in the centre of Paris.

Low Flier
8th Jan 2015, 18:45
Hands up anyone who has heard a muslim say he supports everyone's right to criticise or make fun of all religions. Including publishing cartoons of the prophet.

Here's one such Muslim, albeit only with one hand up and the other in supplication:
http://s9.postimg.org/nmj0vccgf/Supplicant.jpg

prospector
8th Jan 2015, 18:52
LF Yes, and two who do not. And who won?

ian_bird
8th Jan 2015, 19:03
Hands up anyone who has heard a muslim say he supports everyone's right to criticise or make fun of all religions. Including publishing cartoons of the prophet.



Here's one such Muslim, albeit only with one hand up and the other in supplication:


Equally Brilliant Mr Low Flier! :D

RIP Ahmed. A policeman. A husband. A father? Oh Yeah - a Muslim. A very good man - who will be missed by many. As will all the other 11 victims of two thugs who wouldn't know true religion if it kicked them in the b*lls.

Lonewolf_50
8th Jan 2015, 19:30
which you clearly haven't,
But I did read them, so your mind reading attempt fails yet again. To characterize some of the bloviation espoused on this forum as a call to genocide is both a load of ballocks and the exercise of fear mongering.

foresight
8th Jan 2015, 19:53
To characterize some of the bloviation espoused on this forum as a call to genocide is both a load of ballocks and the exercise of fear mongering.

I do recall a post ( I'm not going back through all this to find it) recommending turning the desert to glass. There are others in similar vein. That painting of Richard I ,one of the more egregious candidates for the Bad British Monarch Award, just above, shouts 'slay the Muslim hoards'.
Plenty of others, including Boing's recent post to which I replied, seek to find an excuse for ethnic cleansing.
These posters are suffering an irony bypass.

Low Flier
8th Jan 2015, 19:54
who won?

Prospector, please define what you mean by "won" in this context.

Do you mean winning in the Blair/Bushite sense?

http://bashapedia.pbworks.com/f/1237002618/Lionheart.jpg

probes
8th Jan 2015, 20:08
If we were to see more large scale protest condemning these actions then there would be less victimisation against the ordinary moderate peace loving muslim. Why aren't we seeing these in every city like we do against Isreal every time anything happens over there?
We aren't. That's it.
Most of you really don't understand the complexities and challenges of the world. In fact, I'll lay the claim you're not in the slightest bit interested in doing so.
I'd like to be enlightened. The interest is there (here, it would be correct to say maybe).
P.S even if I'm not sure freedom of speech means anything can/should be said. But freedom of living anywhere surely must not mean the right to shoot the ones you don't like.

rgbrock1
8th Jan 2015, 20:18
probes wrote:

I'd like to be enlightened. The interest is there

I'm on my way probes. Be there in a jiffy so as to enlighten you. :}:E:E

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 20:27
If we were to see more large scale protest condemning these actions then there would be less victimisation against the ordinary moderate peace loving muslim.A 17yo Muslim student was beaten up today by people paying homage at Bourgoin-Jallieu (Isère).

The police have opened an enquiry.

prospector
8th Jan 2015, 20:33
Prospector, please define what you mean by "won" in this context.

The policeman, who was slaughtered as he lay defenceless on the ground, may have been named Ahmed, but I have not seen anywhere laid down as to what his religious beliefs were.

The Islamists in this conflict clearly won, did they stop to ask the policeman what his name or religious beliefs were? and would it have made any difference if they had of? No they are just stone age apes with the lust to kill in the name of the religion of peace?????

grizzled
8th Jan 2015, 20:37
lexxie747


Your post above, re the police officer who was killed, is the most disgusting comment I've seen on pprune in a long time (and that's saying a lot...).


Here is a press summary (CBC and UK Guardian) of the man and his actions yesterday:


"It was a Muslim policeman from a local police station who was “slaughtered like a dog” after heroically attempting to stop two heavily armed killers from fleeing the offices of Charlie Hebdo following their brutal massacre.
Tributes to police officer Ahmed Merabet poured in on Thursday after images of his murder at point blank range by a Kalashnikov-wielding masked terrorist circulated around the world.
Merabet, who according to officials was 40, was called to the scene while on patrol with a female colleague in the neighbourhood, just in time to see the black Citroën used by the two killers heading towards the boulevard from Charlie Hebdo.
“He was on foot, and came nose to nose with the terrorists. He pulled out his weapon. It was his job, it was his duty,” said Rocco Contento, a colleague who was a union representative at the central police station for Paris’s 11th arrondissement.
Video footage which has now been pulled from the internet showed the two gunmen get out of the car before one shot the policeman in the groin. As he falls to the pavement groaning in pain and holding up an arm as though to protect himself, the second gunman moves forward and asks the policeman: “Do you want to kill us?” Merabet replies: “Non, ç’est bon, chef” (“No, it’s OK mate”). The terrorist then shoots him in the head."


As old time prruners know, I used to post regularly, but for the past couple of years I have been a reader rather than a contributor. In this instance I could not contain myself. I have no idea how or why you (lexxie) could bring yourself to post such a hateful comment about a person who gave his life (bravely).


grizz

wings folded
8th Jan 2015, 20:39
From my understanding, perhaps false, he (Ahmed) was unarmed as were most of the first responding police.

rgbrock,

now is not the time to wake up a gun thread (for or against)

Especially by stupidly innacurate statements.

The deceased officer was shot by the scum in retaliation for shots he fired in their direction after the massacre had taken place. He was armed. All the Police Nationale are armed. As are the Gendarmerie.

The lady policeman killed today was not armed; she belonged to the Police Municipale, who do not carry arms. Different event, different day.

Hussar 54
8th Jan 2015, 20:40
Meanwhile, not a million miles from where I'm sat at this moment, hiding behind my computer screen, we've had some more peace loving visitors....

BBC News - Boko Haram crisis: Nigeria's Baga town hit by new assault (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-30728158)

Lonewolf_50
8th Jan 2015, 20:43
I do recall a post ( I'm not going back through all this to find it) recommending turning the desert to glass. I read that as well. Bloviation, or sarcasm, not sure which. (Pedantic point: it's the city he'd need to turn to glass if he wanted to get a crack at genocide, eh? :p )
There are others in similar vein. That painting of Richard I ,one of the more egregious candidates for the Bad British Monarch Award, just above, shouts 'slay the Muslim hoards'. But that's not what Richard III did, genocide. He set out, among other things, to conquer and hold a given parcel of land. That isn't genocide. For all of the slaughter at Acre, THAT was not genocide either. (But it was an atrocity, as I see it). Using Richard III as an exemplar is sorta funny, when one considers that he and Saladin made a deal when all was said and done. ... on 2 September 1192, Richard and Saladin finalized a treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty) granting Muslim control over Jerusalem but allowing unarmed Christian pilgrims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrim) and merchants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchants) to visit the city. Richard departed the Holy Land on 2 October. The successes of the Third Crusade allowed the Crusaders to maintain a considerable kingdom based in Cyprus and on the Syrian coast. Nobody killed of an entire people in the process of this.
Plenty of others, including Boing's recent post to which I replied, seek to find an excuse for ethnic cleansing.
Please spell out what you mean by that. You appear to use words yet not be all that clear on their meanings.
"Get the furriners out!" or something else? As with nukes on deserts, not likely to happen any time soon. These posters are suffering an irony bypass.Some people suffer other deficiencies, thanks for providing a few examples.

@grizzled: thanks for providing the narrative of the cop out there doing his job.

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 20:51
The lady policeman killed today was not armed; she belonged to the Police Municipale, who do not carry arms. Different event, different day.

Not correct. Police Municipale can be armed at the request of the Mayor. The Prefecture has to authorise this and selected officers undergo firearms training. I reckon around half in our town are armed.

Many more were trained after two female officers were gunned down and killed while attending a domestic incident. The killer grabbed the gun of the only officer who was armed, shot her, then chased and killed the other officer who had no way of defending herself.

wings folded
8th Jan 2015, 21:08
Not correct either.

Un avis du Procureur is required also.

But this is not the place to debate Articles L511-11 and R511-34.

People have been killed. Can we not just respect them?

sitigeltfel
8th Jan 2015, 21:14
Especially by stupidly innacurate statements.

You said it :rolleyes:

BOING
8th Jan 2015, 21:15
Foresight,
I do not deal in twisted words, if I want ethnic cleansing I will tell you I want ethnic cleansing. I am perfectly happy to share my territory with any man who wishes to improve his lot or find freedom in my country - what I cannot stand is a person who comes to that country and demands that it changes its historic mores to meet their requirements - all the more so if they use violence to achieve this end.

We have here a de facto declaration of war on various nations based on an amorphous transnational religious belief. If the recent actions had been carried out by an established government we would presently be in a true and official state of war with that nation. I see no reason why we should treat combatants and their supporters who base their association on religion any differently than we would do if they based their actions on nationality.

.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
8th Jan 2015, 21:22
Not just de facto, but de jure.
Al Qaeda declared war on the US and its allies in August 1996. That state persists.

oldchina
8th Jan 2015, 21:28
Agreed. Behaving in accordance with strongly held religious beliefs confers no more special rights and privileges than behaving in accordance with the rules of the local darts team.

probes
8th Jan 2015, 21:28
I am perfectly happy to share my territory with any man who wishes to improve his lot or find freedom in my country - what I cannot stand is a person who comes to that country and demands that it changes its historic mores to meet their requirements
very well said, BOING. What prevents such simple truth to be understood by people who are responsible for official policies?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
8th Jan 2015, 21:38
I could not dig, I dared not rob.
Therefore I lied to please the mob.