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oxenos
6th Jan 2015, 10:58
A while back there was a thread about Greece leaving the Euro.
Latest Thoughts?

probes
6th Jan 2015, 11:06
I read somewhere Germany said they don't care. Well, they don't think it would be too bad if Greece let the Eurozone, might be more PC?

mad_jock
6th Jan 2015, 11:37
All the med countrys should leave the euro to be honest.

And have one of there own.

Capetonian
6th Jan 2015, 11:41
The Greek economy is being kept on life support by the stronger countries of the Euro. Of course the Greeks don't want out.

They managed for thousands of years by fiddling the books, devaluing, and ingenious accounting. It worked for them. Let them go back to it.

The sooner Greece is kicked out, precipitating the downfall of the whole miserable, doomed, unworkable, and impractical political experiment, the better.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
6th Jan 2015, 11:43
Should have left then. Now it will be more long term pain, but politicians and their backers have (they think) managed to financially insulate themselves from the worst of it. The language has changed to "Well, Greece is only 1% of European GDP" so they are ready for it to fall. The European public is now almost into an austerity mindset, so years of misery don't look relatively so bad.



...and that is the good news.

cavortingcheetah
6th Jan 2015, 12:00
Way back in 1832, the British, including such sexual deviants as Lord Byron, aided the Hellenics in their successful quest to attain independence from what today is called Turkey. The Islamic political world, for such is the predominant faith in Turkey, owes Britain and thus the EU, a great debt of gratitude for having taken Greece off its hands. It is a foolish man who disregards the words of history, in this case those of Virgil's Aeneid: Timeo Daneos et dona ferentes. Beware Greeks especially when they come bearing gifts or, no doubt, when they're on the scrounge.

ATNotts
6th Jan 2015, 12:00
The Greek government fiddled the figures to get into the Euro to begin with, and as the majority of EU nations wanted as many nations to adopt the Euro, they were blind to Greece's fiddling of the books. Some other nations were also guilty of saying one thing and doing another - mostly the southern European nations, plus of course our old friends France.

To be honest, if I were Fr. Merkel I'd put a metaphorical gun to the Greek left's head, and if let them go if they won't play ball. However from reports this morning, it seems that the german government is back peddling from their supposed position over the weekend.

The Euro would be better off without Greece, and possible Greece better of returning to a (soft) Drachma. How one of the cradles of European civilisation came to be so economically incompetent is a mystery.

ExXB
6th Jan 2015, 12:01
"Well, Greece is only 1% of European GDP"

In other words it doesn't matter one way or another. The Germans are happy with a weaker euro, it helps their exports so they are making the right noises to ensure it stays weak.

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 12:01
Greek membership was always a fiddle, the books were cooked to help Greece join as it meant they would stay loyal to the west. Its being a disaster since. Even before membership Greek banks did not trust their own countrymen with money, owning a Greek credit card was indeed a rarity.
Suddenly they had the Euro and the party began...

The Germans have had enough and this latest threat of refusing to honour their borrowings and wanting to wipe the slate clean has pushed it to far. My understanding is that German has been quietly moving the liability from German banks elsewhere so a default is more of a shared problem now. The Germans are not too worried. Greece is the ballast holding the recovery back, the rescue bailouts they receive could be used to assist other EU countries.

For Greece leaving the EU is the equivalent of the captain of the Titanic saying.."that was fun lets go around and try to hit it again".

They having nothing to sell and nobody is out there with the cash to ride to their rescue, it will be interesting to see what happens after the Greek elections. If Syriza the left wing lot win it will be egg on face as Germany says "ok lads off you go".

cavortingcheetah
6th Jan 2015, 12:15
Greece a cradle of civilisation? Well, not really, not since the region ceased to be a conglomeration of city States, no more than today's Romans have any connection with the original founding Trojans and the Etruscans with whom they intermarried.

B Fraser
6th Jan 2015, 12:49
The Greek economy is much like their sanitation - the more paper you throw at it, the less well it works.


Perhaps if they gave us the left side of Cyprus and all of Crete, we could cancel their debts ?

mixture
6th Jan 2015, 13:24
A while back there was a thread about Greece leaving the Euro.
Latest Thoughts?

Theoretically... never say never.

Realistically.... it ain't gonna happen.

Next question ?

Capetonian
6th Jan 2015, 13:27
The Greek economy is much like their sanitation ....... a bucket of shit covered in flies!

Fox3WheresMyBanana
6th Jan 2015, 13:42
It's mid-afternoon on a Tuesday. Based on my observations over a couple of weeks, the average Greek is sitting at the cafe discussing the week's work. He will start this on Wednesday afternoon. Thursday is a full working day (!:eek:). Friday is an early start at a rapid pace to enable a knock-off around lunchtime.

Capetonian
6th Jan 2015, 13:48
A friend of mine did a forensic audit on the Greek subsidiary of a multinational. Some of the stories he tells about his time in Athens would make your hair stand on end.
The Greek working week is 42 hours apparently. He reckons you can knock the 4 off to get the number of hours they actually work.

G&T ice n slice
6th Jan 2015, 14:04
Timeo Daneos et dona ferentes

Didn't he play for Arsenal and She had a big nbr 1 hit with "Love to Love you Baby" or somesuch?

I went to the LSE you know

OFSO
6th Jan 2015, 15:56
Just finished lunch with two well-read. well-educated German friends. Discussing Merkel's view that a Greek exit from the eurozone is almost inevitable and won't cause any problems in the rest of the eurozone.

Conclusion around the table: if Merkel had said that three years ago things would be a lot better.

I was told that under German law passed in the last few years, Merkel isn't allowed to make any further contributions to the Greek economy. Merkel ? German law ?

I thought the EU was running things ? (Cynical laugh).

MG23
6th Jan 2015, 16:44
I read somewhere Germany said they don't care. Well, they don't think it would be too bad if Greece let the Eurozone, might be more PC?

I believe the correct translation was 'don't think you're going to blackmail us into another bailout by threatening to leave the Euro'.

The EU's problem is that it's a political shark: if it stops moving, it dies. Economically, it can survive a country abandoning the Euro, and will probably be better off if Greece goes, Politically, such an act will only accelerate its demise.

And the Greeks will obviously be much better off once they start printing their own toilet paper and default on all their Euro debts (or convert them to said toilet paper, which will effectively be the same thing).

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 16:49
Internally they may be better off for a while, its just who will accept payment for oil or wheat etc with greek toilet paper...

MG23
6th Jan 2015, 16:52
Internally they may be better off for a while, its just who will accept payment for oil or wheat etc with greek toilet paper...

The same people who used to before they joined the Euro. They might have to drive Smart Cars instead of BMWs and Porsches, but they'll get by well enough.

OFSO
6th Jan 2015, 17:09
Realistically any new currency will at first sink in value and stay down for a while (how long ?) but will find its own level in time. This will cause a lot less pain to human beings than "austerity" (although probably more pain to Greek banks).

But then the 'bail out' was never about helping ordinary people.

MG23
6th Jan 2015, 17:33
Greece was a poor but viable state before it joined the Euro. Then they loaded up on debt to buy shiny stuff, until they could no longer afford to pay it back. It can go back to being a poor but viable state if it gets out of the Euro.

Either way, it's up to the Greeks, unless you're planning to invade and force them to work to pay off debts they can never repay. I'm not sure they'll be too happy about being occupied by the German army again.

OFSO
6th Jan 2015, 17:40
unless you're planning to invade and force them to work to pay off debts they can never repay

Exactly !

Polite requests are never going to work. Neither will impolite requests. I can see them falling back into being governed by a military junta (again), which of course will mean them needing LOTS of military hardware: the thought of such sales will have the arms dealers in the UK and France salivating and Brussels willing to advance the Greeks large sums of money in order for them to buy those arms....... er, been here before, haven't we !

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 17:45
You need to look at Greece even before they joined the Euro, tax evasion was/is a national pastime. Re their own currency, anyone online here open a Greek a bank account if they split....no I did not think so.

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 18:25
I keep reading Greek and Irish commentators blaming ze Germans for their woes.
Having lived in N Ireland with family in the South we watched as property prices soared, where did all the hidden equity come from?
The average guy on the street salary certainly not grow to match such prices, when you hear of aunty Betty flipping property and making 70,000 on it over 6 months alarm bells should have been ringing. Its was a house of cards, develops and bankers bribed the Irish government to allow the borrowing to continue. The ECB, the Germans and even the bank of England warned the South in boom years to watch its borrowing but the advice fell on deaf ears.

Fast forward to when the bubble burst, the only rescue package in town came from the Germans and of course they are not going to give it away.

Its the same in Greece, brutal corruption and over borrowing and it all came falling down. I think 6000PIC has it right, Greece will collapse and the undesirables will crawl out. But I cant see an alternative....the Irish bit the bullet and are slowly recovering....I cant see Greece doing the same.

MG23
6th Jan 2015, 18:29
Having lived in N Ireland with family in the South we watched as property prices soared, where did all the hidden equity come from?

Artificially low Euro interest rates.

The Euro basically handed Germany's credit rating to every nation that joined. Complaining that those nations took advantage of easy credit is like giving a black Amex card to your twelve-year-old daughter and complaining when you have to sell your house to pay the bill.

I remember when the EU was pushing the Euro, they used to talk about how it would impose financial discipline on those spendthrift European nations and turn Greeks and Italians into Germans. The reality has been precisely the opposite, as many of us predicted at the time.

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 18:31
But Ireland and Greece are sovereign states, not crack drug addicts living in sink estates.

Nobody forced them to borrow, is that not why we have government and treasuries.

MG23
6th Jan 2015, 18:36
Nobody forced them to borrow, is that not why we have government and treasuries.

Again, you're telling your twelve-year-old daughter that she shouldn't have bought a pony, a diamond-studded tiara and a private jet just because you gave her a black Amex card with unlimited credit limit.

Yes, if Greeks had been Germans, they could have not taken advantage of artificially low interest rates to borrow as much as possible. But everything everyone knew about Greek history told us that they'd borrow and spend as much as they could until they went bust.

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 18:41
Seriously the 12 yr old analogy does not fly, these are elected governments with a military, perhaps we should take everything of them. can they be trusted with weapons. Its the attitude of throwing the toys out of the pram and claiming it not my fault I over spent.
I love to ask my bank for a bail out or to write off my debts and I'm not a country.

MG23
6th Jan 2015, 18:52
Seriously the 12 yr old analogy does not fly, these are elected governments with a military, perhaps we should take everything of them. can they be trusted with weapons.

And there we see the EU red in tooth and claw. Greeks will become Germans, or else.

I love to ask my bank for a bail out or to write off my debts and I'm not a country.

Banks write off or write down individual debts all the time, when they clearly can't be collected.

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 19:13
If paying back what you owe is German then so be it, Greece has plenty of assets that could be sold off to settle its debt as in the private sector. Germany could repocess and island or two.

Fat Magpie
6th Jan 2015, 19:37
On this topic I found an interesting info graphic.

European Debt Crisis: Greece Debt: Who Loaned the Money? (http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html)

tony draper
6th Jan 2015, 20:47
"Germany could repocess and island or two".
Again.:rolleyes:

Solid Rust Twotter
7th Jan 2015, 06:39
Not enough Ju52s left to do it the hard way, Admiral D.

cattletruck
7th Jan 2015, 12:28
Isn't this just your typical run-of-the-mill modern day economic phenomena by those queer (as in strange) people working in a sector called finance who don't actually produce anything yet have billions to splash around.

There's yer problem, these corporate flunkies make Mr Ponzi look like an innocent angel in comparison.

And do you really think they can actually solve a problem without creating a bigger one?

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 12:40
There seems to be a perception that a fat cat, a Dr No type character, a fat billionaire sitting in his command chair stroking a cat is the source providing the bailout funds...in actual fact the money comes from you and I in savings and pension funds. Why should the employees of one country work their nuts off to subsidise another. I am no fan of the banking industry but Greece needs to get its act together.

OFSO
7th Jan 2015, 12:52
We are all talking as if Greece only had a choice between euro or returning to Drachma. Now here's a suggestion: why don't they leave the eurozone and institute a new currency called...the Deutschmark ? It reeks of fiscal stability and economic sound good sense.

It would obviously be priced very low, Greece would be perceived as a "cheap" tourist land (as Spain used to be before the Big Mistake was made) the average German citizen who hearks back to the past (50% of them) would love it and the older German citizen (99% of them) likewise: back to the land of the Deutschmark. I can see every hotel filled every summer, German companies investing there, Pediga organising tours.....

rogerthat777
7th Jan 2015, 13:55
All this Greek bashing is down right ridiculous.

@cavortingcheetah, you are extremely lucky that Greece kicked out the Ottomans, you would not have the freedom to write such pathetic views if the Turks had reached further north to your miserable abode, you would be thrown in jail and have your rear end probed by a Turk, they enjoyed giving this on you infidels, but you probably like that sort of thing, be grateful for what Greece gave the world, 'Greece' as a collective, as in the noun 'Britain', not your city states perspective.

99 square miles are being occupied by the brits in Cyprus, not to mention the 36% squatters up north.

The temple of Zeus was uprooted and stolen by ze germans and now resides in Berlin, add to that all the gold taken and no compensation given.

Parthenon marbles, buying stolen goods, the statue of Nike is France, the list goes on.

Just to ease up the tone for a bit, the Mini, the great British icon was designed by yes, a Greek.
Alec Issigonis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alec_Issigonis)
Now owned by ze germans

Greece and Cyprus and Asia Minor have been pillaged by many over many many years, the views written here are unjust and frankly racist, no mention of the Turkish pogroms of Istanbul which systematically destroyed all Greek businesses and alike as well as the 100000s that suffered under Ottoman occupation.

Greece has one of the largest merchant navies in the world which is never mentioned and has one of the highest expenditure on its military given its size due to the constant threat from the east.

In response I'll let you all read this:
In association with TRUTHSAYER t (http://www.bentlawyersandcops.com/index.htm)

And this
The Cyprus News (http://bewareofbrits.com)

Stick to economics not racist pathetic misguided and uneducated biased views.

Damn philistines

Fat Magpie
7th Jan 2015, 14:53
With reference to the Greek gold

Since 1962 Germany is estimated to have paid some 32 billion DM in aid and EU subsidies to Greece. Add this to the war time reparations and the sums are even. Note, Greek Government gold reserves were held for the duration of the war at the Bank of England. The Royal Navy picked up tons of gold before the invasion. It was the later Greek Generals who plundered it.


Source Bloomberg:
Greece had gold reserves worth 4.74 bilion euros ($6.2 billion) at the end of 2012, the country’s central bank said in a letter to a lawmaker about the fate of the country’s gold during the Nazi occupation.

The reserves at Dec. 31 totaled 3.76 million ounces of gold, according to the letter forwarded to parliament by the Athens-based Finance Ministry and obtained by Bloomberg News. Half is held at the central bank in Greece while the remainder is held at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, the Bank of England and in Switzerland, according to the document.

The information came in response to a query submitted by a lawmaker of the far-right Golden Dawn party after reports in the Greek press that gold moved in 1941 ended up in England and was never returned.

Gold held at the Bank of England for safekeeping was returned to Greece over the years 1946 to 1956, today’s document from the Bank of Greece said. The transfers were documented in the bank’s annual reports for the years 1941 to 1946, 1950 and in later years, it said.

To contact the reporters on this story: Maria Petrakis in Athens at [email protected]; Antonis Galanopoulos in Athens at [email protected]

HMS Dido log:
(Operation TIGER - For details see ENGAGE THE ENEMY MORE CLOSELY).
14th Joined Force C for support of defence of Crete.
Embarked Greek gold bullion for passage and escorted Convoy AS1 with HM Australian
Destroyers STUART (RAN) and VENDETTA evacuating non-combatant troops from Crete
to Alexandria covered by HM Battleships QUEEN ELIZABETH and BARHAM (Force A).
(For details of naval operations during defence and evacuation of Crete see THE BATTLE FOR
THE MEDITERRANEAN by D MacIntyre, ENGAGE THE ENEMY MORE CLOSELY and
The Naval Staff History.).