BA Pilot ATC Incident at DUB

[Officer Kite]

This happened at Dublin on the 24th of Dec. There have allegedly been reports filed and the rest. Some are calling the pilot arrogant and selfish and others saying the lady was cranky. Judge for yourself :E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWg7IpphPc8

Regards,

[RobShan]

Without hearing what came before; an understanding the circumstances around clearance to line up, it's hard to judge fairly.

[eagle21]

When she asked them to vacate the runway three times why didn't they?

[Sop_Monkey]

If that's what going on with the radio, would be interested to know what's going on in the cockpit.

[Anotherday]

You can't tell ATC you're ready when you're not and then line up without the cabin seated, that's unprofessional. If you tell ATC you'll be 2 minutes and if there's nothing in finals they might let you line up. This whole idea that once you're there lined up the whole world can wait for you is BS. Pretty obvious BA were in the wrong and doing everything they could to not be delayed themselves while delaying everyone else.

[deadcut]

What's with the "fully ready" rubbish? What's next? Completely fully and definitely ready.

[sunnySA]

At Sydney, Nigel were getting to the holding point and not being ready and delaying other aircraft (up to 20 mins) - "just waiting for the load sheet". Eventually this was stopped as BA are now "fully" aware that they can't proceed to the holding point until they are ready.

[Consol]

He was also asked twice by the previous (ground) controller if he was ready very explicitly as the BA form of 'not having our numbers' is well known.
I don't think he would try this carry on in LHR, ORD or JFK.

[Kefuddle]

Deadcut,

What's the matter with "fully ready"? Like "fully established". Everybody knows you might otherwise be partially established on an ILS and that ATC may not be aware of the difference :\

[Two's in]

Well someone's headed for his 15 minutes of fame.

[CISTRS]

Some are calling the pilot arrogant and selfish and others saying the lady was cranky.The lady ATC officer was far from cranky. Rupert's (or Nigel's?) arrogance shines through.

[deadcut]

How can you be partially established on the ILS? You are either established or you are not.

Found this on another website:

He's obviously using the new ATC nomenclature that came in effect at Jan 1st:

-Ready for departure: We've made up our minds where we want to go, now we can start up the engines

-Fully ready for departure: Engines are running, passengers are inside, now starting checklist

-Fully fully ready for departure: start up checklist completed, now starting with takeoff checklist

-Absolutely, completely, really, really and fully ready for departure to the fullest, now give us take off clearance immediately or else: "ready for departure" in 2014 speech

[sagan]

Ignoring an ATC instruction. Standards issue. Bad reflection on BA

[Loose rivets]

Give the bloke a break. Everyone knows Slightly Ready is what he meant.:rolleyes:

[Sqwak7700]

Sorry, but the controller is in the wrong. She kept interrupting him while he was carrying out his last minute checks. Good ATC understands that you are not just sitting there talking on the radio. Talking on the radio is only a small portion of our job.

And we are not psychic about what goes on in the cabin. If the cabin is almost always ready in 5 minutes, but on said day something goes wrong, we can't be expected to magically figure this out with no input from the back. Maybe some passenger got up just as the cabin got ready to call ready to the cockpit.

The speed bird pilot to me seemed quite calm and collected. Controller should understand that interrupting a checklist in most airlines requires that checklist to be read again from the beginning. Pretty standard procedures in most airlines to prevent missed items.

And asking pilot's to hurry should be internationally abolished. It has no place in aviation, everyone should assume that everyone is doing their best. We all are busy doing things behind the scenes. Silence on the frequency does not equate to inactivity off of it.

[SMOC]

7700 you must be kidding, there's no way he was ready and he was clearly stalling for more time.

Good ATC understands that when you say fully ready you are in fact ready, not I'm fully ready except for a couple of things that aren't, such as waiting to hear from the cabin crew and waiting to do a checklist.

[First.officer]

Exactly SMOC......he had no place just sitting there.....told to vacate the active, should have done just that. End of.

[wiggy]

told to vacate the active, should have done just that. End of.

And when asked to "stand-by" perhaps the controller should have done just that, "End of".......

(FWIW we don't know what was going on in the Flight Deck and/or the Cabin, and funnily enough neither did the controller).

[SMOC]

Wiggy what part of are you ready aren't you clear about?

Ready = take off
Not ready = get out of the way

But I don't want to get out of the way so I'll call standby :ugh:

[wiggy]

Wiggy what part of are you ready aren't you clear about?

Let me think.... Yep, got it thanks, I'm so glad I got this far in my aviation life without realising what that call meant - thanks for pointing out the gap in my knowledge.

You're perfect of course, but some of us have encountered situations when you were ready, called it, been lined up and then for unknown reasons you're suddenly not ready (cabin, EICAS, etc)...and if any critical thinking is involved ( along the lines of is it even safe to taxi?)perhaps you just need ATC to stand by for a few seconds.

I don't know what went on on this flight, I suspect neither do you...

[p.j.m]

Sorry, but the controller is in the wrong. She kept interrupting him while he was carrying out his last minute checks. Good ATC understands that you are not just sitting there talking on the radio. Talking on the radio is only a small portion of our job.

Pilot definitely in the wrong, and lying as well.

Saying he is fully ready every time asked, and when he thinks ATC is going to clear him for takeoff, he changes his story and says "still doing checks", or "got a phone call" etc each time "not ready".

[Offchocks]

My thoughts are that if the cabin crew have not informed you that the cabin is ready for departure, or if you haven't finished your checks, then you simply are not ready! I don't see why you should have an advantage over another airline!

[fireflybob]

The last company I flew for it was written in the Ops Manual that you were not permitted to accept a line up clearance unless you had secure from the cabin and were ready.

I know that holding point well as we often flew out of Dublin. On one occasion as we lined up we had a call from the cabin that there was a problem having previously been given secure. A quick call to ATC who asked to vacate which we did with no issue for landing traffic. As soon as we vacated called by cabin to say issue resolved advised ATC who promptly slotted us into beginning of queue and we got away. This is what could have happened on this occasion.

Whilst we need to hear the crews side of the story it seems to be poor management of the situation.

[Nemrytter]

That video has been edited and seems to be missing some pertinant parts of the conversation. It also doesn't make clear where Nigel is at the time (not on the Runway) and, as far as I know, is false in saying that other aircraft went around.

[Trossie]

The controller had a runway to control. The pilots should have been more co-operative, whatever was 'going on in the cockpit'. 'End of'.

How would that Nigel have squealed if he had been an aircraft having to go around due to the self-importance of some git lining up when he is not ready and then arguing with ATC about it?!! This all really just comes down to good manners. Nigel was lacking. (What's "taking a phone call" all about at that stage???!!)

[skysod]

When instructed to vacate an active runway by ATC, you do so without hesitation, you do NOT start a debate about it..........BA take note!!!

[wiggy]

When instructed to vacate an active runway by ATC, you do so without hesitation, you do NOT start a debate about it.

So many of you guys seem to be totally Pavlovian when to comes to ATC. The buck stops on board, not with ATC. They can invite me to "line up", "take-off" or even "vacate" but I'm not doing any of the above until I'm sure it's safe to do so and I will not get involved in a debate with ATC if I'm handling something critical unless such debate is helpful to me. If that's arrogant so be it. There are umpteen reasons why you may genuinely be unable to either vacate or depart (I have no idea what the case was here)........perhaps the BA pilot should have used the magic word "unable" :hmm:

Some in BA have taken note. I understand as a result of all this one sided trial by youtube and other media the pilot involved is being "encouraged" to make sure his full report has been acturately filed, complete with full details of his interaction with ATC ......I wonder if the controller is now having second thoughts about some things that were said.

[kick the tires]

Nigel was def a plonker and he clearly knew he wasn't ready and used his armoury of tactics to delay things. tut tut.

However, the controller may of been better in her phraseology. 'I've asked' is a bit wishy washy, 'Nigel, you are instructed to vacate runway etc etc' is unambiguous and would take a very brave (and stupid) pilot to ignore such a command.

[VH-UFO]

The world doesn't revolve around you Wiggy.

There are actually other Airlines and Pilots out there, who believe it or not, need that runway just as much as you.

Go ahead and use some bull$@it excuse "im taking a phone call" or use your 'enable' excuse, but youbetter have a damned good reason for doing so.

[Cows getting bigger]

it seems to me that there was a breakdown in communication. Clearly the BA wasn't as ready as ATC wanted and, like many places, this contravened the high intensity runway operation procedures (I think Dublin has a line or two in the AIP).

I'm surprised that the BA didn't do what he was told and, to me, that appears to be the most unusual element of this whole event. That said, a significant proportion of the recording reflects badly on ATC with an unprofessional rant.

[MrDK]

Other than aircraft safety, who is the boss when it comes to ground movements on the airfield?

[Journey Man]

Pretty much as Cows Getting Bigger calls it. BA bashing is probably quite an easy sport and if the clip has been edited that raises alarm bells. Clearly the YouTube poster is not impartial.

They should have vacated when instructed, but the ATCO should not have vacillated. The part about taking a phone call is probably a badly worded response when put on the spot, but didn't help.

They should have taken a leaf out of the blue-now-purple brigade and declared a "small technical problem, we just need a moment to investigate". Used to great effect when lined up on the active without being fully ready and with aircraft now barrelling down the ILS, having declared ready for departure.

[PENKO]

Come on wiggy, we've all been there, called ready when we were really not fully ready, entering the runway with the fingers crossed, hoping to be absolutely ready once we line up...

Usually we feel quite guilty about this, and when it does not work out, when ATC finds us out and no stalling technique has any chance to work without delaying other aircraft further, we dutily vacate the runway with our tail between our legs!

You can't use the checklist as an excuse to stall even further, unless of course, BA's line up checklist starts with 'cockpit preparation':}

[akerosid]

What do you think would have happened if they tried this at Heathrow?

If they wouldn't do it there, why should they do so anywhere else?

[Cows getting bigger]

.... or Gatwick, or Manchester, or Luton .................

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Sorry to interrupt the chip-shouldered predictable BA bashing - just want to point out this whole public trial by heavily-edited-youtube clip was started by a spotter with a scanner who pretends to be an air traffic controller on some virtual flight sim/ATC network.

There is more to this than the recording suggests. Dublin ATC isn't great. With due respect to the Dublin ATCOs, who have to work within the constraints of a runway and taxiway layout that doesn't help them much in its design.

And this wouldn't have happened at Gatwick or Heathrow, for many reasons. ATC procedures built to take into account the needs of the operators (not just ATC) and high density ops taxi-way design (multiple holding points for departure) being two that spring to mind.

Anyway, sorry, back to the spotter led bashing. Fire away chaps.

[mhk77]

ATCO here.

Can't understand why anyone is defending the BA pilot here, unless there had been some backstory that isn't on the youtube recording that subsequently influenced the exchange we heard.

The pilot should not have taken a line up if not ready. As ATC we couldn't care less whether you're not ready because of the cabin, final figures or whatever. As far as we're concerned, you can either takeoff when we ask or you're not. If you're not ready then tell us. Personally I will give you a little leeway but if you're starting to delay aircraft behind you by more than a couple of mins I'll do what the DUB ATCO tried to do and move you away from number 1 at the holding point.

And did I imagine it, but did I read somewhere that the aircraft then lined up and then caused 2 go-arounds by his delaying tactics?

[PENKO]

Bit more right rudder, please do explain what else justifies you telling ATC that you are ready when you are clearly not and subsequently stalling and ignoring direct ATC instructions.

I am very curious, since you seem to have an opinion that supports this pilot.

[fireflybob]

Dublin ATC isn't great.

Not my experience - I have always found them excellent especially given single runway ops and traffic density at times.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Nigel was totally in the wrong.

Either he was ready when he said he was, or he wasn't. If he wasn't then he lied and deserves a rocket. If he was and something suddenly changed he should have declared it. He didn't.

I think we all know what was happening here and it reflects very poorly on BA. I hope they carry out an internal investigation and that the crew have their attitudes suitably adjusted.

[mark one eyeball]

I thought that controller was overly nice and patient
what sort of reception would he have had at heathrow, he would have been roasted alive

[C_Star]

...but at least their RT was impeccable... :E

[Officer Kite]

With regards the video editing and the go arounds, I've managed to speak to someone who was also spotting on the day and witnessed it.

First, there was a 2 minute "silence" from the BA guy after he was cleared onto the runway having claimed to be ready. This is when the controller replied "Oh negative ..." This was edited out as with liveatc.net at eidw, there is no sole tower frequency, it switches to approach etc during silences on one frequency. Therefore you would have heard 2 mins of unrelated ATC chat in between had it not been edited though i feel it should have been mentioned. This works against the BA guy further.

Next though, the 2 go arounds is absolute nonsense. The guy seemed baffled as to where that came from as there weren't even any aircraft on the approach at the time. Had it been true you would have heard them on the tower freq.

[Flagon]

Reminds me of an 'incident' at CDG many years back when I was 'barrelling' down the ILS on 27. Strongish southerly crosswind. Regional Nigel cleared 'immediate' from intermediate and, I think, one of the 'new' DanAir/BA guys cleared line up full length, 'be ready'. Regional Nigel then started muttering about the wind being out of limits and did not move. Pseudo Nigel confirmed fully ready. I was getting closer to a runway with metallic obstructions. To this day, I swear I do not know who said it, but a voice piped up and said 'Nigel - either sh1t or get off the pot". Regional limped off with tail between legs, Pseudo rolled, I landed. It appears things may not have changed.

[Admiral346]

I hardly know a place on earth I would like to be less than on an active runway.
It is a pretty dangerous place, with heavy things moving very fast all doing their best to hit me at some point.
So when being cleared for takeoff, I'll see to it that we get moving quickly, and after landing, I'll do my best to get off that fastlane with minimal delay.

Also, if there are checklists to be carried out during lineup, I find those procedures designed rather poorly. During lineup your eyes should not be on a piece of paper or a computerscreen, but take a glance of the killer items (flaps, fuel, trim) and otherwise stay outside and scan for those fast pieces of metal, that even the best controllers have missed before.
I don't see how taking a phonecall would improve safety at this point.
If a controler tells me to get off that strip, I'll follow that advice gladly, and sort out all the talking and arguing at a safer location (a taxiway, for example).

And if I was the guy behind such an aircraft as the BA is being portrayed as in the Youtube clip, you would most certainly hear my voice on the frequency too, uttering words that would make every Bavarian blush.

[KelvinD]

Ignore the Youtube clip. The poster has obviously some axe to grind with BA.
1. The aircraft was an A320, not A319 (G-EUYK)
2. The 8 aircraft waiting to go was actually a single Aer Lingus flight (no idea of type)
3. There were no go arounds and sod all in the immediate area
He cleverly edited out the most aggravating sod, the ground controller, who appeared to have a bad attitude right at the beginning.

[liffy2A]

The problem with DUblin is the short taxi to the runway. Cabin was not obviously ready and to start taxing to the holding point in the first place blocking all departure was not a great idea. However crew may not be familiar with that in Dublin. He did however ignore 3 ATC instructions which should be looked at.No where in the world would you get away with that. 2 minutes is a along time in any airport with multiple departure and arrivals and I find it very hard to believe the airport was not busy as it is one of the busiest days of the year as the 25th the airport is closed. I think the answering a phone comment was him getting cabin secure from cabin crew.

[captplaystation]

I didn't think the edited version posted on youtube reflected too well on either party.

ATCO Annie was being a bit intrusive, labouring the point how many times she had told him to clear the runway (she lost count eventually ) & drawing out the conversation so long that she was indeed negating his ability to carry out a checklist (which many operators do whilst lining up as SOP's not personal preference on the day.)

Whilst in full agreement that Nige should have cleared the runway when told, rather than employing delaying tactics, the whole thing deteriorated into a bit of a "personal" bun-fight right at the stage that he seemed to be going, by Miss ATCO starting to labour the point again vis a vis his refusal to comply (leave that for the report over a coffee on your next break love )

Without hearing the transcript of what took place before, and how/whether BA stated their readiness on ground freq + the alleged silence "breaks", I think the only conclusion we can draw is that this "situation" was not handled in a very optimum fashion by all concerned.

Seems the youtube OP may have had some axe to grind, either nationality or BA based.

[Count Niemantznarr]

Wasn't there an ATC misunderstanding in JNB on the 23rd December 2013, which resulted in a 747 being written off?

[White none please]

If it was , JFK,ORD,LAX,LHR,FRA,:yuk:DXB............the guy would be murdered. And rightly so. Arrogance is the only word for it, no excuse.:yuk:

[despegue]

Ready for departure means all checks... COMPLETE.

Simple no?

[phiggsbroadband]

Maybe Atco Annie should have cancelled his flight-plan and told him to Return To Stand. If he ignores 3 ATCO instructions whilst on the ground, how many more instructions will he ignore whilst airborne?

[Yaw String]

Defend the defendable!
I think,ATC girl demonstrated her professionalism, by getting him airborne!
When you decide to disobey ATC in a busy airport environment,when YOU don't have the full picture...what next!
I agree....he did keep calm....Well Bravo.....hope a lesson has been learnt,by whoever needs it!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Years ago at Chicago. Aircraft lands in blowing snow. Nigel told "into position" and slowly lines up. Cleared for take-off Nigel announces he'd like a "minute or two". Mrs ATCO says "Shift your ass Nigel, landing traffic". Nigel went...!

[Airclues]

I think that the youtube posted is rather biased against BA and has edited the tape to suit his own agenda.
Although there was a delay in the cabin being ready (hence the phonecall from the cabin), the pilot declared fully ready before he was cleared to line up. It is not uncommon to complete the BTOC whilst lining up (some aircraft that I have flown needed to be lined up before it could be completed). While he was completing this checklist the controller launched into a 16 second admonishment. When the pilot said 'standby' he was asking her to allow him to complete the BTOC uninterrupted, a request that she ignored. Had the BA aircraft been made to vacate the runway it would have caused a much longer delay than allowing him to take-off.
I realise that BA bashing is great sport, so I don't expect to have many supporters.

[26er]

I am reminded of the time in the early seventies when Frankfurt ATC were working to rule, creating huge delays. BEA and Panam shuttled back and forth to Berlin. Calls for start clearance to FRA ground resulted in replies such as "you are number seventy in the sequence". Shortly we realised that Panam were calling for start up as soon as they had touched down thus gaining a few places. Not to be beaten Bealine in the Metro hold with an EAT of one hour called Ground for start up to be asked "are your doors closed and passengers seated?" With hand on heart he replied "affirmative" so was allocated a start position in the sequence. When eventually he landed, taxied to the stand next to Panam, and loaded the pax by this time his sequence time came up so the doors were closed and off he went, leaving Panam fuming. Needless to say this scheme couldn't last for long but was fun whilst it did.

[Officer Kite]

Just been listening to the liveatc feed and today's BA845 has just has his push back clearance cancelled as he called back saying he wasn't actually "ready". A non event but oh the irony.

[Al Murdoch]

Come on wiggy, we've all been there, called ready when we were really not fully ready,

Speak for yourself...

[Gordomac]

Airclues and 26-er got me recalling my education at LGW in the eighties. Nigel, beside me, calls for push. Tug nowhere to be seen, doors still open, bits of netting, or something,still dangling out of cargo doors, etc, etc. Huge delays if you missed your slot so we did think that this was going to be good. Atco Annie asks if he was "fully " ready for push. Nige says, beautifully, "affirm". She, then, went ballistic. She claimed that she could see him from her armchair in GMC and gave us all a lengthy definition of what "fully ready" meant. The tirade must have lasted only a while but seemed to go on forever. Push denied and Nige drops out of the sequence for about two days but he did have the presence of mind to say, in response to her lesson ; "Gosh, I get all this at home. I come to work thinking I'll get away from it!" I think we all took a full minutes silence in order to compose ourselves.

[Airclues]

Cleared for take-off Nigel announces he'd like a "minute or two".

The early P&W (-3a) engines on the 747 required a 30 second power run when fully lined up in icing conditions. Many years ago at Chicago I explained that to the ATC lady before we got to the runway but was told to taxi to the far side of the airfield to use a different runway. No complaints, it's their airfield, but better than having iced up engines on a 747-100 at max weight.

[Mikehotel152]

a voice piped up and said 'Nigel - either sh1t or get off the pot"

:ok: I have got to find an opportunity to use that one!

Sometimes controllers get it wrong. I was once severely reprimanded by a DUB ATCO on GND frequency. It was completely inappropriate, partly because the controller was utterly mistaken and misinformed but also because of the patronising language he used on air. I was polite despite feeling aggrieved.

I'd say the DUB controller in this case sounded a bit stressed but that doesn't excuse a professional flight crew from accepting a line-up clearance when unready. Nor do the delay tactics paint them in a good light. They should have told the controller they needed a specific amount of time and if that wasn't possible due to the overall ATC picture, they should have vacated immediately.

[Right Way Up]

As soon as he said 'a point of order" I knew he was looking for trouble.

All airlines have "difficult" crew members....what would be interesting to know is if the pilot was the "real" troublemaker or was he just relaying the Captains instructions.

Whatever had gone on before he had no right to refuse the clearances ATC he gave him....i think he got away lightly with her responses as I can think of a few places where the end result may not be so pretty.

[Capt Claret]

Come on wiggy, we've all been there, called ready when we were really not fully ready, entering the runway with the fingers crossed, hoping to be absolutely ready once we line up...


Nope. Never. :ugh:

[captplaystation]

Happens all the time at most airports, particularly those with frequent delays. Guy alongside calls for start/push, doors still open / no push back in sight, it is a great way of jumping the Q, unless the tower (or the guy parked alongside you, who you are trying to screw :hmm: ) is paying attention.


liffy2A, I have not been in DUB more than 6 or 7 times this last 5 years but, I am mystified by your comment "The problem with DUblin is the short taxi to the runway. Cabin was not obviously ready and to start taxing to the holding point in the first place blocking all departure was not a great idea. However crew may not be familiar with that in Dublin. " is it mentioned somewhere that you don't call for taxi until fully ready for take-off ? if so that would be a first for any airport.

Individual cabin crew competence/motivation , pax behaviour & a thousand and one things can influence how long it takes to get the cabin ready. If we all taxi at 3kt I would wager that100% of the time we would be ready on reaching, & then we would have a "Nigel taxies at 3kts" thread. If the layout of the airport is so cr@p that one aircraft not being ready holds everyone up behind them, I would suggest that good old Irish skill of yore (laying of tarmac) should be used to good effect to build/extend a holding area alongside the holding point, & the procedures amended to mandate a passage through this area unless lining up immediately . . . This seems to me a very "local" problem, which operators could be advised of, but surely shouldn't have to change procedures (I.E don't call for taxi until fully ready for take off ) to accommodate.

[PENKO]

I am ready.
Actually I am not ready, I'll have to wait two minutes.
No, I won't vacate, just standby.
Now I'm actually fully ready.
Standby, you interrupt my checklist
We are fully ready madam, stand by.
We are fully ready what would you like us to do mam?
:{:{:{

You can't make this up. I lost track on how many times he said standby :)

[Brain Potter]

Ready for departure means all checks... COMPLETE.

Simple no?


Except for aeroplanes that have a manufacturer's Before Take-off SOP and Checklist that cannot be completed until cleared to line-up.

[caulfield]

Storm in a teacup.If youre asked to line up and still not ready, then I'd say you have to give in.You can play for time once.Three times is a bit cheeky.
But the ATCO cant engage crew in a dispute prior departure.Thats a distraction at a critical time.Once it was obvious BA wasnt giving in,she should have shut up and when they were passing 500',she can say she will be filing a report and wish them a good day.
You can taxi slowly to the runway to give the cabin more time.ATC cant really order you to go faster than 10 knots.But once there,you have to be ready or get to the back of the queue if ordered.If its not busy,then no.

[CISTRS]

Wiggy:
So many of you guys seem to be totally Pavlovian when to comes to ATC. The buck stops on board, not with ATC. They can invite me to "line up", "take-off" or even "vacate" but I'm not doing any of the above until I'm sure it's safe to do so and I will not get involved in a debate with ATC if I'm handling something critical unless such debate is helpful to me. If that's arrogant so be it. There are umpteen reasons why you may genuinely be unable to either vacate or depart (I have no idea what the case was here)........perhaps the BA pilot should have used the magic word "unable" :hmm:Why would it not be safe to vacate?

[PENKO]

Except for aeroplanes that have a manufacturer's Before Take-off SOP and Checklist that cannot be completed until cleared to line-up.


But that would not affect your actual readiness for departure! You accept the clearance, read the four or five points of the checklist, and blast off. This pilot's 'standby you interrupt my checklist' is utter nonsense.

[Eau de Boeing]

especially on an Airbus.......

[Brain Potter]

But that would not affect your actual readiness for departure! You accept the clearance, read the four or five points of the checklist, and blast off. This pilot's 'standby you interrupt my checklist' is utter nonsense.

and what if one of the items in the SOP or Checklist needed attention?

[PENKO]

Then your ready call five minutes ago was even more inappropriate or if something just popped up you say: not ready, we have a technical problem, request to vacate the runway.
We all know how the game is played. We cut each other some slack, but we don't take the piss.

[Aluminium shuffler]

There are a few here defending the indefensible. I have lost count of the number of times some pillock in a brightly painted 319 has done this to me at a London airport. ATC should have sent them back to stand and cancelled their plan. Frankly, I'd like the pilots arrested. If you knowingly line up without being ready, unless you have mentioned that to ATC specifically and they still line you up, then you should be stripped of you licence. It's one thing to have a problem as you line up - pax standing up, a tech fault or whatever, it happens, but to deliberately block a runway out of selfishness is as unprofessional as it gets. To then refuse to vacate when instructed should result in the pilots' prosecutions. Time to start pruning out the bad from our profession. Maybe they could lose a few pilots who don't bother with preflight checks and then fly over the entirety of London on a single burning engine before bringing the country's biggest, busiest airport to a stop instead of lobbing in somewhere more sensible. These events show the world BA have the same problems as every other company - shame it's only BA pilots that can't see it.

[caulfield]

Ive listened to recording five times now and changed my mind.The "standby" at 0:24 is not Nigel taking the piss or playing for time.Hes getting the cabin ready call right then.He announces fullly ready at 0:35 and is given line-up clearance.He can now do the 4 item checklist as he lines up but...the ATCO comes back at him instead of letting him line up in peace(hes said hes ready).The ATCO then takes his second "standby"(bit sarcastic)to mean that he isnt actually ready when what hes trying to say is "Im taking the active rwy,let me do my checks".
My verdict:over-zealous ATCO with a touch too much sarcasm from old Nigel.But its still a storm in a teacup and not worthy of further consideration.

[crewmeal]

I suppose there is a new meaning to Britannia rules the waves, now it's Speedbird rules the waves!!!

[liffy2A]

Hi captain playstation,

There are 2 ways to line up runway 28 via runway 16 and E1, I'm not sure but what Ground do is ask you will you be ready at the holding point. If you are you taxi to E1 if not (lots of times wide bodies) the taxi you via runway 16, this keeps the traffic rolling. What I suggest happened is they first told ground they would be ready on reaching,then got to the holding point and blocked traffic behind them not being ready. They were then asked to enter runway 28 and vacate 34 bringing them in a circle to clear the holding back to the holding point. They did not do it at first then called ready and were cleared to line up and hold,and were not ready for take off again disobeying the instruction another 3 times. P.s. There is no room in that corner of the air friend for more entry points, as the rest is restricted ares for the ils 10 and 16.

[BBK]

I've listened to the tape a few time as well and I'm at a loss as to how anyone can defend the flight crew. Although I'm not suggesting a public flogging :E, I think they have cast BA in a poor light and I'm not anti BA. We all make mistakes and I think this was poor judgement pure and simple.

I (we) can only go on the tape that's been provided and so there may be a lot more to this incident but it sounds as if the BA was saying he was "ready" when patently he wasn't. I rolled my eyes when the pilot makes the "point of order" when everything I heard suggested he (they) wasn't ready. I agree with Penko's view and I'll admit to approaching the hold expecting to get a line up clearance and only received one at the last moment. He should have complied with ATC unless he had a valid reason for not doing so. Technical problem? If he had one he never declared it so how could the controller make an allowance for that.

Storm in a tea cup? If you think it's acceptable to ignore an ATC instruction, without a VALID reason, then please stay away from major international airports. I imagine the controller has filed a safety report after having her instructions wilfully (as far as we know) ignored. I'd be interested to know what the view from the BA pilot community is.

[Ber Nooly]

I have listened to the original LiveATC archive (Dec 24, 1100-1130) in real time and have written out the timeline of comments below as they occur in the clip (min:sec). Note the almost 1.5 minutes between his first "Standby" and the controller's asking if he was ready. We missed the initial comment that promted this first "standby", but I wonder if it was the controller asking if he was ready. We may never know.

Look also at the 45 seconds that elapse between his saying he is fully ready and lines up on 28 and the next time he says he's "fully ready...but not finished the checklists". Almost 4 minutes pass before he finally ready to take off. In what country would that be deemed acceptable?

04:00 BA: "Standby"
...
05:22 ATC: "Speedbird845 there's traffic behind you waiting to depart, if you're not ready I'm going to bring you onto the runway to vacate off 34"
05:29 BA: Says they're waiting for the cabin to be ready, it takes about 2 minutes...
05:37 ATC: Orders him to enter 28 and turn off onto 34.
05:42 BA: "Standby"
05:48 ATC: Orders him again onto 28 and off onto 34, traffic behind waiting to depart.
05:54 BA: "Yeah, we just got a phonecall, standby".
...
06:05 BA: "We are fully ready"
06:08 ATC: "Line up 28 and wait"
06:11 BA: "Line up 28 and wait".
06:14 ATC: "And for future reference, etc. etc...."
06:28 BA: "Standby"
...
06:48 ATC: "Speedbird845, are you fully ready?"
06:50 BA: "Affirm...we are just doing the checks as you keep talking over us".
06:55 ATC: "OK, negative, turn right please onto runway 34, that's the 3rd time I've asked you to vacate onto R34. If you're not ready turn onto R34"
07:03 BA: "Madam we are fully ready, we're just trying to complete the checklists but you keep on interrupting us. Standby".
07:09 ATC: Negative, turn right onto 34, I've asked you three times now...."
...
other transmissions...
...
07:34 ATC: "...except when I instruct you THREE times to vacate because there is traffic behind you".
07:40 BA: "What would you like us to do now Madam?"
07:43 ATC: "As I said I will let you depart..." and clears him for takeoff

[A and C]

Ready is like pregnant .......... You are or you are not, it is as simple as that.

If you don't understand the concept you should not be flying a jet airliner.

[captplaystation]

Ber Nooly,

strikes me (if your assumption regarding what prompted it is correct) that the response at 04:00 should have been "negative" , rather than "standby", it does sound increasingly like a degree of p1ss was taken here. . . .

[737Jock]

Had it recently with another BA in Nice who was blocking the runway ahead of me, by liningup in slow-Mo. Slower then parking on stand. Didn't trad Back t/o clearance 3 times, then was blaming a technical problem, which can happen. After which another minute of conpleting checks followed.
This seems to happen regularly with BA as I have heard And experienced behind them!
Maybe its cultural, where their acars loadsheets make it seem "normal" to not be ready while blocking a runway or holdingpoint.

[Reversethrustset]

Do BA incorporate single engine taxying? Maybe it wasn't the cabin, maybe it was a late starting of the second engine. Easy to know on a turboprop but almost impossible to detect on jet. When my company started single engine taxi procedures we were pressured all the time by atc at a London airport to get it started. When it was pointed out to them that virtually every aircraft taxying to the hold are on one engine, including the orange brigade etc, their response was "oh are they?" They can see the props not rotating, but not the jets. Do the engines on BA's 319/320s need 2 minutes after start for thermal stabalisation?
On a separate note, yes I've pushed back at the same time as an orange airbus only for them to call for taxi with the tug attached to get ahead of us, and also had them parked next to us and they've seen our doors close up and airbridge removed only for them to call for push and start with their airbridge still attached. :mad:

[Consol]

As I said earlier, he was also asked very explicitly TWICE by the previous controller if he was ready and gave ambiguous answers before he was even handed over to tower. This is not on the youtube clip. I was operating on the same frequency at the time.

We may have all fluffed it at little once or twice as might ATC (starting a landing clearance with a wind as an aircraft vacates) but this was a lot more than this.

It wasn't a world stopping event but all thr Nigels on Europe could really do with getting out of the habit of blocking holding points and runways whilst waiting for load data/cabin secure. As a general rule if you see Nigel pushing just before you, have some intersection figures ready.

[Hotel Tango]

Posted by Caulfield :My verdict:over-zealous ATCO with a touch too much sarcasm from old Nigel.But its still a storm in a teacup and not worthy of further consideration.
As ex ATC I'd say the most sensible post so far. The thread should now be closed.

[gcal]

I couldn't agree more.

[TDK mk2]

At a UK regional airport not known for very efficient ATC if they asked me at the holding point if I was 'ready', and I had 30 seconds to go until the second engine was ready (2 mins after start) I would tell them I was because if I didn't they would instruct me to hold and clear an aircraft at 5 miles to land. Is that wrong when I know that it will take at least 30 seconds to enter the runway and complete the lineup checklist before applying take off thrust?

Where exactly does pregnancy come into it Mr A and C?

That YouTube clip seems like it has been edited to discredit the BA crew. I think you really would need to know where the aircraft actually was when the 'vacate the runway' calls were made. If as I suspect they hadn't actually entered it then all these calls for them to be burnt at the stake for not vacating when instructed fall down a bit. And she did decide to make her point when they were probably doing their lineup checklist which is not ideal. I do think that some here are blowing this out of proportion.

[bunk exceeder]

http://www.skybrary.aero/images/thumb/EIDW_hs.jpg/600px-EIDW_hs.jpg

Assuming I've correctly managed to attach the image, it seems from the chart, IMHO, that E1 begins after the Cat 1 hold and that it is Link 1 up to that point. A and B2, on the other hand, are charted with the taxiway designation before their hold lines. I would therefore think that "checks below the line" would take place after crossing the Cat 1 hold onto E1 as there is no turning back at that point. Unless of course you're ordered to vacate via 16/34 in which case it wouldn't seem that much of a big deal to simply comply with the ATC instruction. You don't wait until you're lined up to go below the line on any plane that I've flown, none of which was an Airbus. Sort of no huge deal but enough cringe factor after hearing the exchange to know it wasn't good. :uhoh:

[MIKECR]

In my machine the below the line check final item(take off inhibit) comes after take off clearance, not line up clearance.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

The lady ATC officer was far from cranky. Rupert's (or Nigel's?) arrogance shines through.

1. Slow news day yesterday?
2. Here we are xx years and "Nigel" still being used in banter love it
3. Yes more Rupert than Nigel

[terrain safe]

We may have all fluffed it at little once or twice as might ATC (starting a landing clearance with a wind as an aircraft vacates)

That's not a fluff, that's a good use of RT time, and an SOP for me.

BTW line up on the runway and then tell me to stand by you had better have a really good reason when in Hi-intensity runway ops. Not that the ATCO covered themselves in glory according to the truncated recording but the BA would not have departed for me and vacated followed by an MOR.

[4468]

Can someone just explain for me please:

It's 06:08 when Maeve clears BA825 to "line up AND WAIT." prior to that, she's just blathering on about an a/c behind him who may (or may not?) be ready. So until that point, he isn't occupying the runway.

At 07:43 he departs. Would have been earlier except for the numerous lengthy lectures he receives from 'motormouth' WHILST HE IS LINING UP!

Two things occur to me: Firstly that's appalling controlling. Secondly: Even accepting that this is DUB, and very odd things happen there, two go-arounds in such a period is just a lie, isn't it!

[tom775257]

I've seen the same thing at Nice, BA ordered off the runway in the end; off we went. I've never seen this from another airline, coincidental or is there strong OTP or other pressure at BA? Another poster has seen the same at Nice. It seems bizarre to call ready for departure when not.

[DOVES]

Has anyone considered that a following traffic in the queue might have had an expiring slot?
"Think for yourself!"

[Cows getting bigger]

4468, you have just made my day. My better half is called Maeve and boy do they intoxicate!! :)

[bracebrace!]

Happens fairly regularly in EDI too. They taxi all the way to A1 or D1 and THEN state that they're 'Waiting for their figures' which blocks the main line-up point for the runway. Nigel, if you're NOT ready tell ATC before you get to the 'loop' so that everyone behind you can pass and depart on schedule. It's not Rocket Science :ugh:

[MIKECR]

Which is why you play them at their own game at Edi and tell them your able Charlie as soon as they taxi past.

[IcePack]

Waiting for figures is not the crews problem they have no choice, it is BA's they need to be told to stop the procedure.(sometimes you expect the cabin secure & it doesn't come say due a pax suddenly standing up, communicating the like takes time) As for ATC hassle, well wonder how the controller would have felt should the birdseed have taken off with say wrong flap set and crashed with loss of life etc. I'm sure the AAIB would have sited the hassle as a factor. Sometimes you just have to "suck it up" and shrug as hassling crew just prior to departure is a recipe for mistakes to be made.:=

[Nialler]

As for ATC hassle, well wonder how the controller would have felt should the birdseed have taken off with say wrong flap set and crashed with loss of life etc. I'm sure the AAIB would have sited the hassle as a factor. Sometimes you just have to "suck it up" and shrug as hassling crew just prior to departure is a recipe for mistakes to be made.:=
In which case surely the failsafe is to obey ATC when you're on the ground rather than responding to perceived pressure from them?

[bunk exceeder]

Ice Pack, exactly. The question should be why it takes sometimes in excess of 20 mins to get the final figures. Sitting there anxiously waiting doesn't do a lot for the operating crew either. They should be thinking about where they are right now and in the next little while. Not whether someone at LHR is or isn't doing their job and whether there is anyone they can call or ACARS to find out what is going on... Again.

[oceancrosser]

I have also noticed BA taking a very long time after push-back to get ready for taxi, even blocking a cul-de-sac whilst doing so. Is this part of the "waiting for the numbers" game?

[LNIDA]

Load sheet by ACARS problem i think

[MCDU2]

For the posters that think this is a storm in a teacup I disagree. This happens each and every day across the world. At LHR you don't see it as the Speedbirds are parked in "sin bins" awaiting their numbers and wouldn't dare trying it on. Away from base and quite often at smaller single runway airfields then it would appear its game on. The only difference this time is that Dublin airport is part of the live atc network and this has became very public. Hopefully something will come of it and a BA management pilot will issue an edict for the better of all aviators. But it will take a cultural change I feel which is easier said than done.

[Trinity 09L]

In the later scenario if the "wheels fell off". How would the CRM be effected by the input of the ATCO during checks. :rolleyes:

[bracebrace!]

Waiting for figures is not the crews problem they have no choice

It is their choice to deliberately not tell Ground/Tower until they are have gone past the last 'Option' for clearing the taxiway for all the other aircraft in the queue behind them. It's basic 'Airmanship' :=

[wiggy]

At LHR you don't see it as the Speedbirds are parked in "sin bins" awaiting their numbers and wouldn't dare trying it on

Not quite. As I suspect you know they are, along with just about any other operators aircraft, held well short of the runway entry points (e.g. Pluto/Lokki/Loman, until ready) and, gasp, it's not unknown for other operators not to be ready when called, especially those coming out of T1/2/3 for the 27s. I'd agree the BA final figures system isn't perfect, far from it, but personally I've not had to decline a clearance to enter either of the 27's due figures or cabin in several years. OTOH there are issues with compression on the T5 to 09R routings, hence if needed ( and coming out of 5B or 5C it's not always needed) we either to sit on Bravo or those coming out of the southern T5 gates may wait on the terminal apron, leaving the access to 09R via Alpha clear.

The idea that BA flights are routinely held in "sin bins" around the airport waiting for figures is somewhat wide of the mark....

[T250]

What are the reasons in favour of this seemingly inefficient system of getting final load figures halfway down the taxiway, or in this case on the runway?

Is it cost? Why can't BA follow what every other airline I've dealt with do and go with final figures before pushback?

Might improve OTP beyond whatever OTP or cost saving this current ATC hindering ACARS system saves

[Ber Nooly]

Just to remind people that seem to think that the clip was edited to BA's disfavour, almost 4 minutes elapsed from the time of his first "standby" to when he was actually ready to take off (04:00 to 07:43). 4 minutes! I can't see any airline getting away with that at LHR, LGW, MAN, etc.

Unfortunately the LiveATC feed at DUB scans three frequencies, so that's the reason why some of this conversation was missed. Listen to the whole unedited clip and you will hear.

[captplaystation]

Probably someone in the dim & distant past thought it was "cutting edge", seems more like it is "cutting it to the edge". . . . . . . prefer our system of receiving an sms, usually well before the last pax has boarded.

[bunk exceeder]

There are little adjustments that need to be made once the actual load and pax split are known and staying on a gate awaiting the final figures will likely cause the odd inbound aircraft to have to wait somewhere for it to be clear as there aren't enough gates in many places and even if there are, they are best used efficiently. So ACARS loadsheets are great but if they need another couple of people in that department to make it run more smoothly, then grab a couple of the do nothing office people, like cabin crew managers, and get them to help speed it up a bit.:E

[captplaystation]

5 posts & 1st since 2009, were you turned down during selection then ? (poor love :rolleyes: )

I think this accusation could be applied to many pilots in many companies (both "flag carriers" & "others", hell, even some LCC pilots from what I hear on the radio ) however, I believe most BA colleagues, are just as aware as the rest of us, that they are no longer a "protected species", and are subject (via their anal HR Dept) to pretty much the same level of B.S. as the rest of us.


Ask the Capt of the B777 "glider" if you think they retain any misconceptions of their "place" in BA.

[Skipness One Echo]

Waiting for the numbers, is waiting for the ACARS loadsheet? Why do BA have a large issue here when say EZY for example, do not.

btw, you bet your arse they wouldn't have tried that at home base. They most certainly do ask to be moved out of the way of they're still waiting for the final figures.

[bunk exceeder]

Captplaystation, nicely put. And SOE, to use a rowing analogy, I suspect:

http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictures/management_race_red_crew.jpg

[Mech1111]

I actually provide one of the two Liveatc feeds for EIDW

Here is the link to my archive of the recording
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/eidw/EIDW3-Dec-24-2014-1100Z.mp3

[Mech1111]

I havent listened back to the archive before this event (so dont take this as gospel), but I have read on another forum that the same flight was caught out not ready for push and start after requesting it.

[trustno1]

A strange decision this to move to Spotters Corner. Things that make you go hmmmm.

[Mech1111]

No agenda here, as you can see this thread is many pages long, my few posts are just supplying true links to the information being discussed and I added one other unsubstantiated as of this moment but relevant piece of info.

[captplaystation]

If we are (as led to believe by an earlier post ) "reassured" by the fact that our Nige was "offered" a DUB ATC number to dial up up on arrival at destination, shouldn't we maybe leave it to two "professionals" to agree (or disagree) on the evenings events, rather than launch into a ( what certainly appears to me as a Scotsman) bit of an Irish/English barely disguised full on racist to-do.

I am trying (as aircrew, but with many friends working in ATC) to stay "professionally " neutral , it is too late at night to even mention the racial stuff( (well, I have already) but, this thread would be best served if the spotters/stirrers took their business elsewhere.

I think most "pilots" on here can probably raise an eyebrow to some of "Nige's" responses, I am equally sure a few controllers are thinking "Oh, why couldn't she have maybe just toned that down a few degrees."

I am at a loss to understand why this sort of cr@p is dragged onto a public forum really. If you go down to the local tax office, or are stopped by the side of the road by the cops, do you record it & splash it all over youtube ? no ? funny that. Many years ago (very many ) as a spotty youth listening to my coveted air band radio, I remember reading some legislation concerning listening/reproducing/transmitting. . . are you sad little people actually legally allowed to record/reproduce ATC/Aircraft transmissions ? & if so, why exactly ? apart from filling youtube with "new-era" gossip what the hell are you doing exactly ? :(

[Hotel Tango]

If we are (as led to believe by an earlier post ) "reassured" by the fact that our Nige was "offered" a DUB ATC number to dial up up on arrival at destination, shouldn't we maybe leave it to two "professionals" to agree (or disagree) on the evenings events

Exactly. And as already said by Caulfield just a storm in a tea cup. I honestly think this thread should now be locked as there's absolutely nothing further of professional interest for anyone to add.

[Officer Kite]

are you sad little people actually legally allowed to record/reproduce ATC/Aircraft transmissions ?

In Ireland, yes they are.

As for "sad" ... while I'm not entirely sure whether you're referring to spotters or those with radios or whatever else but I think that's a bit uncalled for.

[PPRuNe Pop]

OK guys. This is getting out of hand. One or two are taking an enforced break while others with follow if the tone and niggardly aspersions are continually thrown around apparently freely. That, is just not going to happen.


Lower the tone, enjoy a debate, but do not get to the level of bombast and abuse however well it is covered up.


When I see that people get more and more vitriolic I can see that they are getting miffed that that their point of view is not being taken seriously or someone else is bettering their effort.


STOP! Think before you post and all will be well or you may be one of the others that have to take a break from this thread.


Got the idea?

[reracked]

Fine, but I am with captplaystation , what, exactly, is their dog in this fight ? getting "Nigel" sacked ? getting off on revealing some "scoop" to the world about human beings inabilities to communicate/interact ? ( man/woman. . .Oh there's a surprise to start with FFS ? )

Me, I don't get it, but that is me.


Been moved (coupla times ) best shut it before it putrifies.

[bunk exceeder]

Wow, PPP, you're brave to use that word in this day and age. And the word bustard will probably be extinct before the bird. This was getting nasty though. There's no need. We're all people and you never know what the other guy or gal has going on. Is gal sexist and demeaning? Doh!

[PAXboy]

If for nothing else EVERY airline CEO and all their staff (including the flight crew) needs to learn that somone is probably recording what you say/do and may post it where it can be uncomfortable. Best precaution is to assume that they are.

I know that the flight deck is meant to be your 'office' but it links to the outside world and the outside world sees no reason to be restricted. If does not matter that it's against the rules or against SOPs or against your view of life - it is the way things are in 2015.

[olster]

Some pilots are arrogant and so are some air traffic controller. In my longish career I have occasionally encountered one or either; this is the result of 'both'. Having said that: the phrase " fully ready" is irritating - you are either ready or not. You should not line up if the cabin is not secure; also, hectoring ATC does not help. Be professional peeps.

[Transformers]

Dublin ATC were only doing their job here, the Flight Crew were not doing their by stalling the process for Line up. Imagine if all pilots around the world used this same bad habit........? The problem with this Bad Habit is that they have done it before and got away with it, this time it has been "Highlighted".

Wether you like the ATC's tone or not is your own option, dont confuse the topic here, ATC were using assertive communication, clearly the F/O struggled with his "Stalling RT Work" whilst lining up, the Captain felt the need to intervene, this only CONFIRMS that they were "NOT READY".......!

[wiggy]

Waiting for the numbers, is waiting for the ACARS loadsheet? Why do BA have a large issue here when say EZY for example, do not.


prefer our system of receiving an sms, usually well before the last pax has boarded

I'm not going to fight to the death defending the BA system but there is the issue at home base of transfer/connecting traffic (something I believe the likes of EZY don't have to contend with ??).

Even after Land side Check-in closes at STD -45 you don't know your "final". As a Long Hauler it's not uncommon for the Turnaround Manager ( note the terminology) to tell me something like: "we're closing the doors at STD - 3, in 5 minutes, we've still got 10-15 running, they're late inbound from XXX or YYY, we'd like them to make it since your's is the last flight to ZZZ today. We'll leave the bulk hold open as long as possible but they might be with hand baggage only, the headcount will be in the final figures". Genuinely close the flight at say -45, -30, and you've lost the flexibility to do that.

I appreciate other long haul operators may do it differently but to be fair on many days even given the above the final figures are running off the printer just as the tug is unhooking...you are more likely left waiting for "the cabin". I'd agree at the outstations "the figures" can be more problematic - IMHO the problem there is often down to poor communications with Centralised Load Control - a problem money could probably fix..:oh:

BTW have we ever established "final figures" were the cause of the DUB fracas:)

[bean]

He was asked by the ground controller if he eould be fully ready when he reached the holding point to which he replied that he would be subject to the cabin secure report being received.
There was no hold up for final figures it's in Live ATC link posted above

[bean]

Just listened agin and he was asked by ground if he had his final figures to which the reply was "affirm"

[Flagon]

Surely the main issue here, ignoring 'why and how', is that the crew refused an ATC instruction 3 times. This is not acceptable. There were no 'safety issues' which would have been raised by obeying a lawful command. There was no justification for disobeying.

Quote from the ?'transcript'?
"07:34 ATC: "...except when I instruct you THREE times to vacate because there is traffic behind you".

[wiggy]

There were no 'safety issues' which would have been raised by obeying a lawful command. There was no justification for disobeying.

Until we know the exact circumstances you/we know that how?

[Flagon]

"we know that how?"

10/10 for loyally defending the indefensible, wiggy, but
a) Was any 'safety issue' raised by the crew with ATC before line-up?
b) Did the crew respond 'unable' to the order?
c) Did the a/c subsequently enter the runway and take off without an emergency?

I grant you the cheeseboard may well have been jamming the throttles.

I am pushed to think of a 'safety issue' that prevents you from taxying and prevents you from communicating it to ATC. I think the rest of the world would probably agree.

[DespairingTraveller]

Until we know the exact circumstances you/we know that how?
Well, I suppose it's possible there was, and the captain preferred to keep quiet about it instead of explaining, and so getting ATC off his back while it was dealt with.

Odd course of action, but "nowt so queer as folk"...

[wiggy]

I grant you the cheeseboard may well have been jamming the throttles.

Tut Tut, := more assumptions, more stereotyping, the cheese trays went years ago......:}

You're right, I might well be defending the indefensible, I certainly wouldn't do that knowingly. Then again without knowing the full circumstances who knows whether they could have immediately safely vacated or not?

[T250]

They were instructed by an ATCO 3 times to vacate, they did not comply.

They did not mention a safety issue as a reason for non compliance, if there was one they would and should have mentioned it. They did not. Therefore what reason is there for non-compliance other than..... Arrogance? Ignorance? Poor airmanship?

Jury is out :hmm::}

[Airclues]

They were instructed by an ATCO 3 times to vacate, they did not comply.

No strictly true. The first two times they were at the holding point for 28 (at 00.20 and 00.28). Surely you cannot refuse to vacate a runway that you haven't entered.

For the ATCOs;

Is it acceptable to issue a 16 second admonishment while the aircraft is lining up for take-off? How would you feel if a pilot did the same when you were about to make a critical transmission?

[Ber Nooly]

No strictly true. The first two times they were at the holding point for 28 (at 00.20 and 00.28). Surely you cannot refuse to vacate a runway that you haven't entered.

Yes, it is. They were instructed to enter 28 and vacate it immediately onto 34, whose threshold joins at that point. From their position at the holding point this was their only way to get out of the way. So yes, they were told 3 times to move.

[T250]

No strictly true. The first two times they were at the holding point for 28 (at 00.20 and 00.28). Surely you cannot refuse to vacate a runway that you haven't entered.

Nevertheless, the ATCO issued an instruction, regardless of its content, 3 times. On all 3 occasions this was ignored and not complied with. That is the issue, regardless of what the instruction was or what it concerned. It was not complied with and there was no apparent/justified cause of the non-compliance. :cool:

[EcamSurprise]

On the Airbus, which I presume this is, you can be READY but not have completed the checks.

We do not and can not complete said checks until line up clearance is received.

If the controller kept on talking over them, it would have been hard to complete although it does seem like it took a little too long.

[Airclues]

They were instructed to enter 28

Things must have changed. I always believed that a taxi clearance or line up clearance was just that...a clearance. It was up to the captain to decide whether it is safe to do so. Can ATC also order a pilot to take off. If so, do they accept responsibility for any incident? I accept the fact that ATC can instruct an aircraft to vacate an active runway but the concept that they can order an aircraft to line up is new to me. How times change!
The aircraft was at the holding point. It was not interfering with the safe operation of the runway, purely causing a slight delay to the following aircraft. How do we know whether that aircraft was fully ready?

[Ber Nooly]

Things must have changed. I always believed that a taxi clearance or line up clearance was just that...a clearance. It was up to the captain to decide whether it is safe to do so. Can ATC also*order*a pilot to take off. If so, do they accept responsibility for any incident? I accept the fact that ATC can instruct an aircraft to vacate an active runway but the concept that they can order an aircraft to line up is new to me. How times change!
The aircraft was at the holding point. It was not interfering with the safe operation of the runway, purely causing a slight delay to the following aircraft. How do we know whether that aircraft was fully ready?

It looks like you didn't even listen to the clip or read the transcript.

She ordered him to enter 28 and vacate it, NOT line up and wait. It was an order, not a clearance. She only cleared him to line up and wait after he said "we are actually now fully ready" (when they still weren't).

He was holding up traffic, for almost FOUR minutes. There was traffic behind.

And he SAID he was fully ready but in fact he wasn't because he was still doing checks, on the phone, etc. He told a porky and chanced his arm. That's how we know he wasn't fully ready.

[Hotel Tango]

We're going around in circles here. Same old arguments, points of view etc. When I see how rapidly some threads are closed I fail to understand why this one isn't.

[Airclues]

A genuine question to the ATCO's on the forum;

Can ATC order a stationary aircraft on a taxiway to move? I am not talking about a clearance here, I'm talking about an order (where safety is not involved).

I am happy with ATC ordering an aircraft to stop but have my doubts about an order to move.

I am interested in the regulations and am perfectly happy to stand corrected.

[PPRuNe Pop]

As of now this thread is closed. Reason! BA an IAA are investigating the incident. Runway 34/16 was NOTAMed - closed - but has been amended today. Also, the video has been edited.


A well known aviation magazine has closed its thread and it would be prudent for PPRuNe to close this one.


No more threads or posts will be accepted until matters settle. Sorry!


PPP