Brussels Airlines A320 Capt. Contract

[C_Star]

Hi,

Can anyone shed some light on the B-Line A320 contract T&C's?

I am interested in the usual stuff - pay, rosters, perks (id tickets etc) and chance of contract renewas (it's a 6 month contract initially)

Cheers!

[captplaystation]

Is this through an agency (Contractair ? ) if so, I would expect very low payment (as per JetAirFly nowadays ) due to the fact that they now only offer contracts "tax paid", so, like the poor Belges, you will have about half of what we used to expect as a "Contract Capt".

Happy ( really ) to be proved wrong, but I would imagine less than €5000/mth net.

[C_Star]

Happy ( really ) to be proved wrong, but I would imagine less than €5000/mth net.

You are joking, right? :E

[captplaystation]

Not really, the previously "lucrative" contract offered with JetAirFly became a total waste of time these last 2 years, as , Contractair are registered in Belgium & therefore have to be legal & "above board".

I worked for the predecessor of Brussels Airlines (Virgin Express) & when contracting was no longer possible, was looking at a 50% pay cut if I accepted permanent contract, things have got much more "regulated" since 2000, so , I cannot imagine you taking more than 5K (honestly :( )

[C_Star]

Well, if it's really the case, then 'waste of time' pretty much sums it up - thanks for the insight CaptPlaystation!

[Giggey]

First officers on the Avro make around 6k if you sum up salary and housing allowance. I guess cpt's will be on a much higher wage.

[captplaystation]

I find that, quite . . . ."incredible" given the level of taxation "enjoyed" in Belgium, and based on what "Contract FO's" receive in Norwegian for example.

Well, apply & wait & see, please let us know, but. . .don't build your hopes up.

Edited to say Giggey, we are talking net (I.E after tax here ) are we, 6K for FO's. ? really ?

[C_Star]

That sounds more reasonable. Why do they need contract captains anyway? I'm sure there's enough 'local talent' to upgrade :confused:

[captplaystation]

Could be because anyone "local" with the experience to become PIC A320 chooses to sell their services elsewhere for a larger silver shilling. . . . as I said, happy (for all of us ) to be proved wrong, but. . . doubtful. Apply & reveal all please, we need to publicise this dumbing down of our Bucks vs Train Drivers.

[Giggey]

Figures are net and i can assure you my source is very credible as it's in my family.
As a contractair employee you pay taxes in Uk not in Belgium.

[Longhitter]

The double taxation treaty between Belgium and the UK has been amended. This is the original treaty:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/in-force/belgium-dtc.pdf

Which has been amended with the following, effective since december 2012:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/235961/8549.pdf

As an employee it is now: pay tax where you live in stead of pay tax where the effective place of management of the company you work for is based.

[eaglesnest1972]

Any chance for rated A320/330 FOs?
Thanks

[C_Star]

Yep, they are advertising for F/O positions as well

[eaglesnest1972]

Thanks c star.
Contractair right?
Strange...
Brussels used to hire directly.

Thanks again :)

[captplaystation]

I put Contractairs name on the 2nd post (with a ? mark ) so, don't know if it's them.

They do have an A320 vacancy on their site, so, I am guessing so.


This being it


http://www.resourcegroupjobs.co.uk/job/Europe_A320_Captains_and_First_Officers_National_Flag_Carrie r_(931568).aspx

[silvertate]

Giggey:

As a Contractair employee you pay taxes in UK not in Belgium.

Taxes, or National Insurance? Paying N.I. in the UK, for aircrew working in Europe, has not been legal since 2012.

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Social security: improved and simplified rules for aircrew and cross-border self-employed workers (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-12-710_en.htm?locale=en)
[ARCHIVED CONTENT] HM Revenue & Customs: National Insurance: New EU rules for flight and cabin crew working in two or more Member States (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/news220612.htm)

If Contractair are paying N.I. in the UK, this is decidedly - errr - against the rules. Unless you know of any way around this regulation.

How is this being achieved, exactly?

[Giggey]

Guys i'm not as prepared about this as i have a different job in a different Airline.

What i was told was that salary is net of taxes i should ask for more info's.

What's sure is that salary for fo's was around 4500+1500 Housing allowance unless you decide to live in the Hotel which would otherwise be paid for.

Cheers

[FreightMate]

I just read the press releases in the links and the regs state: "For self-employed frontier workers, the new rules ensure that in cases where the country of residence has no unemployment benefit scheme for self-employed people, the country of last activity will pay the unemployment benefit"

As I understand it, there is no entitlement to unemployment benefit in the UK for self-employed people. Clearly other countries take a more enlightened view. Has anyone tried claiming?

[despegue]

As a pilot, working for an airline, even as "contractor"through an agency, you are NOT self employed.
You are an employee of the Airline you fly for.
Any company or individual claiming otherwise is not adhering to the EU legislation and commiting "false selfemployment", for which the employer is always guilty.

[ZAV]

Longhitter
is right Silvertate needs to dig deeper as he is not looking at Article 15 .

It is complex that's for sure but what is written is not always the obvious as there are many caveats . Anyway I'm not an expert but this is what my Financial adviser told me . Anyway as the old saying goes two things certain in life " death and taxes"

[Superpilot]

despegue,

That's not entirely correct is it? and really depends on circumstances. If I'm a pilot and a builder in my spare time, and declare income from both jobs, then in the UK at least, I'm not an employee of any particular airline. So long as they pay a company of which I am a director I can continue this relationship forever. However, in practice there's many different types of payment terms that complicate the whole thing such as agencies that put you on their own payroll.

[Longhitter]

Please note that social security premiums and income tax are two different things (even though they usually both appear on your pay slips and tax bill).

Where you pay your social security premiums is governed by EU legislation, where you are liable for income tax is governed by bilateral double taxation treaties between countries.

[silvertate]

Where you pay your social security premiums is governed by EU legislation, where you are liable for income tax is governed by bilateral double taxation treaties between countries.

Agree with that. So if you are based in France, you pay social security premiums in France, and there is no way around this. And if any airline or agency is not doing this, they are going against every rule in the new book.

Ryanair got fined €7 million for breaking this rule by the French. And if Ryan can get burned, then anyone can get burned.

[ZAV]

I read that but that was resident workers working and living in France full time and paying tax and social costs in Ireland this isn't what we are talking about Silvertate get your facts right read the Ryanair news in this .. Longhitter seems to know what he is on about anyway we are pilots if in doubt we should get our own advisors

[Aviation20132014]

Hey guys,
According B-Line, i think its over now.....


Its not Even Witten anymore on the webside from contractair or resourcegroup.

Maybe some pilots ar on Hold.

Does anyone has been invited for a screening in Feb?
:sad:

[Smokie]

Some interesting info on NIC's.
For what it is worth, i'm paid by an agency and they are adamant that all the pilots are self employed but fly for the same airline. Also last year I was based in 6 different countries through the course of my grand tour of Europe. Longest stay was in Poland for about 2.5 months, 2 months each in UK and Estonia, with 2 weeks each in Latvia, France and Hungary...... :confused:

[captplaystation]

It's a small world, or should I say . . . a small planet ?

[Longhitter]

The european legislation on social security premiums for aircrew requires that either a base is nominated for the crew member in question, self-employed or not (in which country you are then liable for social security premiums), OR the crew member is designated as having a flexible base.

In the latter case it does matter again if you are self-employed or not. The difficulty is that the country where you pursue your activity decides on your being self-employed or not based on the local criteria for self-employment as stipulated in the local social security legislation.

It is needless to say that many agencies and a certain airline from Ireland gratefully take advantage of this complex situation by flexibly basing a lot of their crew.

More and more countries, however, have taken an interest in these constructions and are questioning pilots over their employment status...

[silvertate]

I read that but that was resident workers working and living in France full time and paying tax and social costs in Ireland this isn't what we are talking about Silvertate

Sorry, Zav, I think you are wrong. The new rules state:

"However, under the new 'Home Base' rule aircrew and their employer will pay contributions to the Member State in which the 'Home Base' is situated. The 'Home Base' is where the crew member normally starts and ends their periods of duty. In most cases this will be in the state they live in. "


If your home base is Paris, or if most of your flights terminate in Paris, then Paris is where you pay the S.S. tax. They give the example of someone flying out from the UK, to do 5 days in Paris, and flying back to the UK. Your base is now Paris base, and you will be S.S. taxed there.

And it matters not if you are full-time or part-time, all that matters is where the majority of your flights start and terminate. If you work 6 months of the year, and 4 months are in Paris - then you are Paris based. End of story.

[ARCHIVED CONTENT] HM Revenue & Customs: National Insurance: New EU rules for flight and cabin crew working in two or more Member States (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/news220612.htm)


Anyone whose S.S. tax is not being paid in their home really needs to have a word with an advisor, because the fines are huge if you get it wrong. BALPA had a big thing about this recently, warning everyone to be careful because it is a hot-topic in the tax departments due to the blue-and-yellow issue.

[silvertate]

For what it is worth, i'm paid by an agency and they are adamant that all the pilots are self employed but fly for the same airline.



Not sure how the rules work in other countries, but that is not true in the UK any more.

The primary criteria is the number of revenue streams you have. If you have less than three sources of income in the year, you will be designated as employed by the agencies you work for, and therefore a part-time employee. The days of a single employer paying a self-employed have long gone.

[ZAV]

Silver tate disagree you are going by what you read on a website without consideration to transitional periods and other caveats. Lets stick to what I hope we are good at and this is flying. Pilots interpreting law is not good. :)

[Longhitter]

Silvertate,

Unfortunately the only case in which the social security thing is straightforward is when you are directly employed by an airline with a home base nominated.

There is indeed a transitional period and the new EU legislation allows for aircrew having a flexible base. Whether you are deemed self-employed for tax and social security purposes depends on national legislation in the country or countries involved. There is little straightforward about these cases and one would be wise to consult an expert on the subject and not believe everything your agency tells you.

[fastmover123]

The homebase rule is a blatant attempt by the ECA at protectionism as it has almost nil effect on larger legacy airlines that employ the majority of their crews at a single hub (who are mostly 'resident' in the country they operate from). The European Regional Airline Association lobbied the EC hard against it but were finally defeated by the unions.

It clearly makes it harder and adds complexity for smaller or airlines that operate from multi-bases (such as your typical loco) employing multiple nationalities.

As a contract pilot the whole concept of paying my social security on 6-9 month contract (in a country where I effectively live in a hotel room paid for by the airline) is flawed, especially as my children/spouse, etc. live in the country where I am ordinarily resident (and benefit from healthcare, schooling, etc.).

As far as I can see the Homebase rule does make some provision for people that have an ‘unstable’ Homebase (I am a contractor working in the airline industry – what is more unstable than that!). I am lucky that the majority of my contracts are run through UK agencies and I insist on staying in the UK social security system for any short-term contract work and ask them to apply for an A1 form.

[jimmyjoe22]

I guess is like 8000 eur minus 500 for belgium pension fund minus Social security from UK MINUS again personal taxes in UK .
Theres some deductions.... but can anyone clear me that the final net amount is less than 5000 eur for an average of 80 hrs /month?
Ive asked to them and the diverted the answer on this issue,and i find it very low! Like an fo...

[max767]

It will probably be close to 5000€ NET. From july 2012 SS should be paid in the country where you start/end your duty which is then called your base. So in case of Brussels Airlines it would be in Belgium. And taxes should be paid in the country from which the airline is operated from (flightops). So again taxes would have to be paid in Belgium for Brussels Airlines.

[captplaystation]

Like I said 14mths ago in Post #2 (but no-one wanted to believe it could be THAT bad )


But, it probably is := unless the current market situation continues, and then (maybe) as we are seeing with many Contract positions already this year, things may have to get better if they want Bums on (FD ) Seats