USAB. Reality of the market, and CX's 'head in the sand' approach

[Apple Tree Yard]

Todays Wall Street Journal has an article discussing the recent management proposals to address pilot pay at American Airlines. A few salient points:

1) In November, AA management offered their pilots an immediate 18% pay rise (yes...18%), plus 3% a year for four years.

2) The Union has countered suggesting a settlement that is effectively an additional 7% over and above the amounts quoted in point '1'.

3) The Flight Attendant Union at AA has just received a 6.5% raise effective immediately. The total package makes them the highest paid FA's in the US industry.

4) Doug Parker, CEO of AA, is on record saying that he believes the employees 'deserve' industry leading wages because 'they' are responsible for keeping the customer coming back.

5) All other US carriers are racing to establish industry leading wage and benefit packages.


So....where does this leave USAB..? Simply put, they are a pathetic shadow compared to the main US carriers. USAB needs at minimum a 25% pay increase to match what is on offer from the main US carriers. That does not even address other issues such as staff travel and medical benefits, nor retirement benefits which are far superior to anything that CX offers.

If CX has ANY thought of keeping labor peace in the US, they had better wake up to the fact that they are FAR behind the curve in compensation and benefits. The fact that they allowed the USAB pilots to suffer a pay CUT this year says everything about how out of touch they are about the reality of the market place.

Wake up Ms. Thompson. It is time you and the rest of the ivory tower in HK realise that the industry has moved on....and far away from the current stunted ideas coming out of Hello Kitty City.

[Cpt. Underpants]

ATY, I've no doubt that you're on the money with the 25% guesstimate for salary increases, but the reality of CX labour management practices is that until people start leaving in enough numbers to affect the operation, NOTHING will be done to improve or upscale the clearly inadequate remuneration package.

[I'mbatman]

USAB medical benefits far outweigh any offered by US carriers. Unless your doctors are all out of network and then it isn't so great.

[McNugget]

Most SO's are about to miss the wave?

What wave would that be, save for the minuscule number of American SOs, who may be looking back home.

It's not about the big iron, but the lifestyle provided. It may not be perfect on an LAX 777 base, but you'd have to be in Delta for an extremely long time to have a roster like those guys.

Apple; don't be fooled - Parker has absolute contempt for his workforce. He's currently begging for a contract which removes profit share. His rationale 'profit should only be shared with those that help make it'. This is in a year where they will make upwards of 7 billion this year.

[Trafalgar]

Actually, Parker is more respected than most CEO's in the industry. He has promised industry leading packages. Why doubt that? The numbers will speak for themselves. As it is they are offering almost 23% increase TODAY. Never mind increases year on year after that.

As for medical care, yes, CX does have a good plan. However, the day you leave CX you and your family are on their own. At least the US carriers have some sort of retirement health care package. For the benefit of many of you who are not familiar with US health insurance: if you were to retire from CX today at age 65 and try and get health insurance for you and your wife, plan on paying almost $2500 usd/mo for anything worth the name. When you take that into account, CX is woefully behind the curve.

If they want to expand the US market, and have based onshore pilots, they had better start sharpening their pencils and falling into line with the US majors. Otherwise, they can expect years/decades of strife.

[Anotherday]

Reality of the market?

Package at CX is good enough that virtually no one leaves. Cx won't raise an eyebrow until at least 7-10% leave. That's 210-300 crew resigning. In the past few years:

BA direct entry F/O - no one leaves
Jetstar direct entry skippers 330 Perth - no one leaves. Aussies from the sandpit grabbed this as fast as they could.
And the every year hundreds of US crew about to head off to US carriers.

We'd be lucky (or unlucky depending on how you look at it) if 1% of total crew resigned this year.

KA offered "dream roster" month on month off and guys couldn't stand being stuck in Australia (or being a month away from Hong Kong?) for a whole month so they came back.

Go figure. Merry Xmas.

[Shep69]

I usually try to avoid flaming, But McNugget you're wayyyyyy off base and it would be nice if you'd do some research as well as learn how to push a noun against a verb without blowing something or someone up.

Compared to the previous management Parker is doing exceptionally well. The AA FA's errantly voted down the TA (many of whom wanted a 'redo' that could not be redone)--in which pay WAS the only thing that could be addressed (which was poorly communicated or poorly received depending on how you look at it)--due to some last minute buffoonery and suspicion (this had its roots in good intentions but was very poorly communicated). Anything they would have gotten in arbitration would have been less and that's exactly what happened as it went to the arbiter. Despite a ruling (essentially halfing the original proposed TA increase), Parker decided to restore the full amount in the TA out of respect for the value of employee goodwill--just like ATY posted. He could have done absolutely nothing but saw the value in a happy workforce.

Oh, and threw in another 4% on top of this.

Hardly the behaviour of someone contemptuous.

It is early days there, but many are impressed by what he is doing. A lot better than anything we are seeing as well as a lot better than has happened at American in decades.

[Trafalgar]

Usually, when you see a post genuflecting on how CX has such a 'wonderful' package you can safely assume one of the following:

1) management
2) non-American (can't go to a US carrier, therefore B and T'd)
3) too old (therefore definitely B and T'd)

With the rapid rise in US carrier wages, many of our younger qualified pilots will plan on leaving. Who in their right mind would stay here if you were 40 or younger. CX is fooling themselves if they think they can onshore and then maintain the same derisory package they currently offer. :rolleyes:

(ps, Shep: you are absolutely correct about Parker. The FA's made a hideously bad strategic mistake, and ended up with an arbitrated package less than what AA management had offered. Parker not only restored the original offer, but as you said, improved it by 4% and made them the best paid in the industry. Imagine what CX management would have done with the same circumstances....).

[asianeagle]

The percentages quoted above are all well and good but.....
what are they a percentage of???

18% of F-all is still F-all right??

We need real numbers to compare otherwise its a moot point:confused:

[iceman50]

Well it is easy then, why don't you all resign and join those great airlines in the US of A and stop whining on here.:ugh:

[Trafalgar]

Iceman and Asian Eagle. Refer to categories 1), 2) or 3) in my post. Which of those do you belong to?

(and Asian....by the end of next year ALL US majors will pay more than USAB.)

[iceman50]

Trafalgar in that case stop talking the talk and walk the walk!:rolleyes:

[jacobus]

Precisely. Good old Traf ( purportedly in England if his handle is correct, so quite wtf it's got to do with him anyway) is one tough vicarious motherf&cker with other people's careers.

[waterfalls123]

I don't know what a Cathay wide body pilot earns but, currently at American just as an example, all in US dollars:

777 Captain earns around $230,000 year salary assuming around 1,000 hours of credit per year

777 First Officer earns around $156,000/year salary assuming around 1,000 hours of credit per year.

A 747 crew earns a few thousand bucks more per year. Those wages above lag Delta and United by around 15-20% as Delta and United are further along in their mergers (Northwest and Continental, respectively) than American is with US Airways, and therefore have completed post-bankruptcy contracts years ago.

16% of their gross salary is put into a retirement account to be invested as the pilot desires. So if a pilot earns $200,000/year for example, an additional $32,000 (over and above the $200,000) is put into this retirement account.

I would take an educated guess that the junior-most 777 Captain at American has probably been at that airline at least 25 years. The junior-most 777 First Officer probably 10-15 years.

They're probably paying a few hundred bucks a month for medical insurance for their families.

They're probably getting anywhere from 14-18 days off per month on average as widebody guys/gals.

All the employees at the major airlines in the US travel space available on their own airline based on seniority. It's pretty cheap to travel this way- maybe a flight from Dallas to Boston for an American employee would be in the tens of dollars. And of course, ZED/ID90 arrangements on other airlines worldwide are available. US pilots can fly in any other US airlines' cockpit jump seat for free at any time.

When they retire, if they're anything like Delta or United, they're probably paying a few to several hundred dollars per month in medical insurance, although in the US at age 65 everyone gets Medicare for medical insurance anyway and that is sort-of inexpensive for the "basic" medical insurance plan.

That is the majority of an American pilot's earning, but of course there are other little perks that might add to total salary (occasional overtime, moving expenses, instructor overrides, etc.) How does that compare to Cathay?

[RusCo]

I won't post real CX/USAB numbers but they are below AA period.

The salary for a widebody captain does not come close. At usab you do not quite reach 20,000 with 18 years.

Of course dont forget that you can be a 13 year f/o and the day you get the ever coveted 4th stripe you go down to year 1 probationary captain. Those 13 years count for nothing.

It has already been talked about..the medical upon retirement with usab..nada, zero, nil.

Things have to change, guys have left and they will continue to leave. i just wish it would be in greater numbers.

Oh and i forgot to mention...SENIORITY? Whats that? Days off? The flight the day you want it? Vacation when you want it? NEVER

[sizematters]

17 USAB F/O's have left or handed in their notice in the last 2 months....................FACT......

[RusCo]

17? Thats all?

I wonder if that is why these bandaids are being thrown out by the company.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Jacobus. There's an intelligent reply. Trafalgar is correct. The USAB conditions are glaringly lacking compared to the new contracts being awarded by the US carriers. And WTF does him being in 'London' have to do with anything?. I'm in Hong Kong (for now) and I care about the conditions on ALL the bases because this company has a history of picking of each group one by one. You obviously either haven't been here that long, or you are too dense to appreciate that what happens to one group WILL eventually happen to the others. The US carriers are once again setting the standards for pay, benefits, seniority, and nearly every other issue of concern to people employed in this profession. If you've got something constructive to say, then say it. Otherwise, take your sarcasm elsewhere. We are falling behind in nearly every area, and USAB in particular is now hopelessly inadequate in comparison to their regional peers. Why don't you comment on THAT fact?

[waterfalls123]

I was kind of curious what my peers make over at Cathay. Are you guys not allowed to post numbers similar to what I posted above? US airline pilots have their hourly rates posted all over the internet, but it's hard to find similar info for non-US airline guys/gals. If you get in trouble for disclosing, no big deal. I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

[swh]

Cannot guarantee you these are accurate, common pay scale, all fleets have the same pay.

Cathay Pacific | AirlinePilotCentral.com (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/international/cathay_pacific)

[BillytheKid]

Many more than 17 are trying to leave. It takes time, but I can guarentee more will leave.

Iceman50-

Pi$$ off with your childish attitude towards those of us that would like CX to offer a better compensation package. We wouldn't have to contemplate leaving if they hadn't fallen so far. BTW, that fall affects even you mate.

Merry Christmas!

[ERJDCA]

Undies,

Guys are leaving, its just going to take time. I know of 7 since August that have already resigned and another 2 with interviews coming up next month. There are also a handful of guys with recalls that will go as well. It might not sound like much but 10 years ago nobody I knew would consider leaving. Rather than improving, things continually get worse.

Swh,

Those US pay scales are WAY off. I believe that must have been the old freighter scales from years ago. It isn't that bad, however, it is still way behind the big three in the U.S. (assuming AA signs this new TA). Medical might be very good right now but we will see how it changes for the worse during the on-shoring.

[GTC58]

There is just over 200 CX pilots based in the USA. 17 leaving seems to be a significant number. A lot of the USAB FO have applied elsewhere. However, it takes time to get an interview and course.
The onshoring will be very interesting as some USAB FO are preparing an age discrimination grievance and I am sure if it is not resolved by the time of onshoring that this issue will go to court. Not to mention the paycut related to this and the lower then HKG pay rise offer for USAB officers.

[ERJDCA]

and the list goes on...

[geh065]

Cathay are employing 320 new SOs next year and upgrading a significant amount to FO. Even if all the "200" USAB FOs leave, I fear it might not improve the package much unless they all left at the same time but then it wouldn't matter because there would be no one left to give the pay rise to.

[asianeagle]

Iceman and Asian Eagle. Refer to categories 1), 2) or 3) in my post. Which of those do you belong to?

(and Asian....by the end of next year ALL US majors will pay more than USAB.)

Actually non of the above, I'm a reasonably junior HKG based Cpt.

All I asked for is some real numbers, not management speak percentages which tell us nothing. Which of the 3 are you??

Now that someone has posted real numbers, I now agree with you in general:D

Cut to the chase, bring real numbers then we all on the same page…something we could do with in HKG too maybe :rolleyes:

[boxjockey]

Cathay are employing 320 new SOs next year and upgrading a significant amount to FO.

Mwhahahaha!!! Right, that is DEFINITELY going to happen! Have a look at our net growth of pilots on the seniority list for the last year. Now, put that together with a RUMORED 80 trainer shortage on all fleets, mix it all up with around 100 commands, and tell me what you get? There are hopes, and then there is reality. If CX manages to put in 320 new cadets to the line next year, I will eat my hat!!!! :E

box

[DropKnee]

DELTA AIR LINES PAYSCALES
CAPTAIN PAY SCALE (Hourly)
Year
777 747-4 787 A330 767-4 757 767 737-9 737-7 737-8 A319 A320 MD88 MD90 717
12 263 263 251 248 248 219 219 212 210 210 203 203 200 200 190
11 261 261 249 246 246 217 217 210 209 209 202 202 198 198 188
10 259 259 247 244 244 215 215 208 207 207 200 200 196 196 186
9 256 256 246 242 242 213 213 207 206 206 199 199 193 193 185
8 254 254 244 240 240 211 211 205 204 204 197 197 192 192 183
7 252 252 242 239 239 209 209 204 203 203 196 196 190 190 182
6 250 250 240 237 237 208 208 202 201 201 194 194 188 188 181
5 248 248 238 235 235 206 206 201 200 200 193 193 186 186 180
4 246 246 236 233 233 205 205 199 198 198 191 191 185 185 178
3 245 245 234 231 231 203 203 198 197 197 190 190 183 183 177
2 243 243 233 230 230 202 202 196 195 195 187 187 182 182 175
1 241 241 231 228 228 200 200 195 194 194 186 186 180 180 173

[SloppyJoe]

Is it duty hour from sign on to end of duty or flying hour? How are the hours calculated in the US?

[AQIS Boigu]

How many hours a month are guaranteed?

[letsfly75]

Normally it's block or better. No adjustment factor like CX. Guarantee varies by the airline but is usually around 80. Remember most contracts include minimum day, duty rigs and trip rigs. If we had rigs at CX my pay, based on my current schedules, would jump significantly.

[GTC58]

It doesn't help to get bums in the seats when JFO upgrades now need increasing LUFUS sectors and that the failure rate is increasing as well. That is one of the reasons why we have less pilots now on the seniority list then at the beginning of the year. And of course captains retiring and FO and SO leaving. I personally know FO's from several bases left, like HKG, FRA, SFO, LAX, NYC ....... Surprisingly even Cadets from the AE and TT courses left this year, some with financial loses as they couldn't see a future in Hong Kong with their families.

The original target for new hires in 2015 was around 150 and had to be increased to 320 due to the above. In my opinion it will just get worse. There is now talk to lease two B777 simulators and instructors in TPE as they are already running at training capacity on the B777 fleet.

Doesn't help that the number of cadet applications is significantly down by over 50%.

I talked to many USAB guys and its not only about pay. It is about a modern roster and leave system where you can bid, a solid contract, labor protection laws, jump seating and staff travel privileges, retirement benefits and much more. All off what CX can not or is not willing to provide, but US carriers can. Not to mention constant conflict and tension between CX management and the pilots. Maybe ask some of the pilots who are at CX for over 20 years, most will tell you that this is the worst they have it seen here with the lowest morale ever.

[Arfur Dent]

Rostering is pretty much what it was 20 years ago. If you look at what your phone and your computer can do now when compared to 20 years ago, you can see just how 'innovative' Cathay Pacific is regarding its' treatment of aircrew.
I say again ' Rostering is pretty much what it was 20 years ago' .
Bloody disgraceful...........:mad:

[Shep69]

Scheduling should be more than reacting to a series of recurring train wrecks. Ironically enough, a coherent, stable, and modern rostering system as well as a decent contract would go a long way toward mitigating any effects of contract compliance. Once again a good example of how everyone can win if only our leadership would have vision and place profit ahead of ego and power.

[ERJDCA]

Well said GTC58! It isn't just about pay, it's everything...