Hand luggage in emergency evacuation

[rethymnon]

In other threads, concern has been expressed at the unwillingness of passengers to disembark without their hand luggage, thus potentially, endangering others.

As a thought, modern cars have a central locking facility: could this not be applied to aircraft overhead lockers?

It would still leave some passengers with hand luggage in their possession, but if operated as soon as the emergency is known, would the sheer unavailability of access not encourage the majority of passengers to accept defeat and just get off the aircraft?

Am I being naive or is it technically too difficult?

[west lakes]

Or would it delay passengers as they tried to open the lockers or argue with cabin crew about their need for said hand luggage?

Though that raises an interesting point, folk who rely on prescription medication are told to carry it in their hand luggage so it is accesable at all times, but are then told to leave it behind in the event of an emergency when some might just need it most or certainly afterwards.

Survived aircraft evacuation but died from lack of drugs afterwards!

[mixture]

Though that raises an interesting point, folk who rely on prescription medication are told to carry it in their hand luggage so it is accesable at all times, but are then told to leave it behind in the event of an emergency when some might just need it most or certainly afterwards.

Erm .....

Surely in the event of an emergency requiring the whole nine yards, slides 'n' all, there would be more than enough medical personnel available on the ground to triage those in need to medical assistance from those who don't.

So your "interesting point" is somewhat moot I would suggest.

[Rocket2]

"Am I being naive or is it technically too difficult?"

Probably against someone's 'uman rights governor :*

[Hotel Tango]

Surely in the event of an emergency requiring the whole nine yards, slides 'n' all, there would be more than enough medical personnel available on the ground to triage those in need to medical assistance from those who don't.

So your "interesting point" is somewhat moot I would suggest.

With respect, that may well depend where said emergency takes place. There are some countries where I'm quite confident I could get prompt access to the meds I need and there are many countries where I would have serious doubts that this would be the case. Luckily for me I don't need to take my bag but can quickly extract my meds from it.

[west lakes]

Surely in the event of an emergency requiring the whole nine yards, slides
'n' all, there would be more than enough medical personnel available on the
ground to triage those in need to medical assistance from those who
don't.



I was pointing to those that may not be immediately needed, fine some or equivalent may be obtainable in some areas but one I'm on has limited availability and at about £1500 for a week's supply is not the sort of thing that can be picked up at a local phamacy

[alserire]

As someone on serious meds I'll take my chances that once I get out of the aircraft the first responders will take my word for it and that some tablets will be available. So if you're in my way in an emergency move. Or be moved ;)

[ExXB]

After the OZ accident at SfO I posted a question that went unanswered. Of course every accident is different but if I left my bag onboard how long could I reasonably expect to wait before seeing it again?

Having as answer to that would allow me to decide if I should try and get my stuff or not.

[MathFox]

If you are afraid of your medication being stolen or getting lost, carry it on your body. There are small bags with a waist-band or bags you can put on your belt, like the ones used for pocket cameras. It will be no hassle during an evacuation if you keep that belt-bag on.

[Kiltrash]

So what would you prefer, get out and then deal with lost passport, med, wallet phone etc

Or not get out at all but safe in the knoledge when they find your body it will be easy for the authorities to identify your remains?

Out my way i'm comming through

[Lance Murdoch]

Agreed. As someone who travels on airliners at least every second week, if there is an evacuation I am getting off the aircraft a lot quicker than I got on it.
In such circumstances I couldn't care less if I lose my passport or laptop. I carry my wallet and keys on my person.

[baselb]

A mandatory six month jail sentence for anyone on possession of a trolley case, for reckless endangerment, should cut down the numbers after a bit of publicity.

[INeedTheFull90]

Agreed. No matter how long it takes to get you bag back, or how important the contents of the bag are, nothing is as important as the safety of yourself and your fellow passenger.

[PAXboy]

There is nothing that will stop people reverting to learned behaviour and taking their carry on with them ... when I'm on short or long haul, I have the essentials either on my person or in a small (waist bag size) in the seat pocket or somewhere within arms reach.


Passport/ID
Wallet with plastic and cash
Any medication I might need
Mobile phone
Boarding pass etc.

Fortunately, I've not had to make an emergency exit as yet but I am ready to reach the exit by hook or by crook.

[west lakes]

I love the waist bag idea put forward by those that assume medicines come in small packets!

So going back to my expensive stuff, a supply for a week would fill most small waist sized bags (the box is 150x100x100) then there is the insulin to keep cool which if in a bag worn next too the body would get too warm, and not forgetting the other 4 drugs i need (though these are in smaller packets)

So come on what is the revised suggestion?

[alserire]

Well could I respectfully suggest, again as someone who is on medication for life, that whatever it is it's not blocking the exit while you recover your carry on.

[mixture]

a supply for a week would fill most small waist sized bags

Well, yes, but surely that's the very point ......

In the event of an evacuation, you do not need to take a week's supply of medication with you !

I read what you said above about it being expensive and "rare" medication, but in this day and age, its not beyond the whit of man to courier you something, either domestically or internationally ... and for that item to be with you the same day or next day at the latest. Your travel insurance would no doubt help take care of organising it and pay the associated costs !

I'm afraid I'm with the others here who have said that I don't give a toss what you are fetching out of the overhead locker ... if you're blocking my way during an evacuation, I'm not going to be politely standing there waiting for you to finish rummaging about !

At the very least you should consider just putting your essential de-minimis medications into a plastic bag and sticking it in the seat pocket infront of you so that you can instantly grab it without any faffing about.

[jackieofalltrades]

Even if you don't want a bag around your midriff, there are other options. I fly wearing cargo pants. Enough pockets for my phone, wallet, passport and keys without being uncomfortable.

I also always keep my shoes on until at least passing 10,000ft on the way up, and from the descent down. Should the worst happen, I'm not fumbling to get my shoes on or having to run through broken wreckage in socks or bare feet. It makes me cringe when I see folk taking their shoes off before the doors are even closed. Not that I have anything against socks on a plane, just don't think it's a good idea until you're cruising.

[PAXboy]

Agreed jackieofalltrades, I also do that with shoes.

For those that need to carry, say, 48 hrs of meds. Perhaps a kids size backpack? That could sit at your feet under the seat in front. For emergency evac, you could sling it over one shoulder but it would not be big enough to block other people, or to bash them?

Further, make sure that you have duplicate documentation for all your meds in that mini rucksack. I take important travel documents as paper and scanned as PDF on a USB memory stick so that I can print off copies from any computer. I may have also uploaded those files to a password 'box' online. This includes details of my travel insurance and numbers I have to ring if things have gone really bad. If your meds are time critical, consider wearing a medic-alert braclet - even if only when flying.

Including a scan of your prescriptions and a covering letter from your doctor would be easy. If things went bad rescuers would find the copies of your meds in the mini bag (with your name on the outside) and that would also state the regimen. This would speed their being able to identify your condition and provide remedy.

[SloppyJoe]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-111209-plane-evacuation-da-01.photoblog900.jpg

[SloppyJoe]

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/files/2011/12/Cathay-Pacific-evacuation-02.jpg

[SloppyJoe]

Unfortunately there are idiots everywhere. The only way to overcome this is to impose heavy fines. Once word gets around that it cost US$10,000 to take your bag people would not do it. During an evacuation it is too late, if they have bags its quicker to just let them go.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Pictures make the point, also most are also wearing jackets and coats.
One other idea is ban them from flying again, maybe create airline blacklists.

[Basil]

that raises an interesting point, folk who rely on prescription medication are told to carry it in their hand luggage so it is accesable at all times
As others have suggested, why not, if bulk permits, keep it on your person?

[west lakes]

As others have suggested, why not, if bulk permits, keep it on your person?

But that's the point, bulk doesn't permit that so anything to carry it in becomes hand baggage which should not be carried during an evacuation!

Even a large waist back or a small kiddies rucksack are all classed as hand baggage so should not be carried

[PAXboy]

You are correct west lakes but better to take a mini rucksack than full sized handluggage? It is clear that pax will NOT follow instructions. Every evac that has been documented in social media has shown this.

My guess is that, in evacs in previous decades, many pax took hand cases with them - but there were no photographs to prove it. Further I speculate that the professionals (crew and rescuers) who saw that bags were taken did not speak publicly about this aspect.

There are many examples that, in extremis, people revert to their first learned behaviour. None of us know how we are going to react. I suspect a large part of the explanation will be if the evac is notified some minutes in advance with all instructions repeated loudly when they ARE listening. Or whether it's an unexpected evac with (practically) no warning.

[west lakes]

It's one of those catch 22 situations that perhaps airlines & regulators need to consider rather than rely on procedures that have been around for a long time.

[ExXB]

But still,
Can someone answer the question, how long will I have to wait until I am reunited with my valuables (which I am told not to check into the hold), my documents (which I am told not to check into the hold), or my medicine (Pen insulin injectors in a cooling wallet - which need to be cooler than my body temperature - and glucose meter (which I will never check into the hold)?

I really don't want to leave any of the above in the seat back pocket, I have had seniors' moments and forgotten things there. Everything in my relatively small sized carry-on, it's coming with me. (It is smaller than some ladies' 'hand' bags)

If it's going to be an hour or two, OK. But if it is more than that I will need assistance from the medical teams, who probably have other greater priorities than my glucose level. However that is life-critical to me.

[highflyer40]

Ex-
you don't need documents, or your meds.. all you Are doing is putting others lives at risk for selfish reasons.

within 15-30 minute max you will be in the terminal building with full health care professionals able to supply all you need. so the extra 30 seconds you took for no good reason to get your bag just killed 5 people further down the line waiting to get out!!

[Hotel Tango]

The problem is that I guess it's human nature to be possessive about one's possessions. It's not an excuse but for many that's what it comes down to. I also think that some evacuations are, rightly or wrongly, perceived to be less critical by the pax involved. Perhaps if the same pax in the photographs above had been evacuating a burning aircraft they may well not have grabbed their belongings. I don't know. And yes, I too belong to the category that ensures shoes are on for take-off and landing.

[PAXboy]

highflyer40... within 15-30 minute max you will be in the terminal building with full health care professionals able to supply all you need.
And if you divert to (say) Banjul International Airport in The Gambia? Or if your a/c is crossing the Indian ocean, Seychelles airport is closest at 03:00 in the morning?

Even if your flight is London to San Francisco, you cannot tell where you might have to land. Take the most extreme example - on Sept 11th 2001, 38 a/c were diverted to Gander. The variables nowadays are infinite and I, again, agree with west lakes:
It's one of those catch 22 situations that perhaps airlines & regulators need to consider rather than rely on procedures that have been around for a long time.

Today's pax have an entirely different approach to everything, not just hand luggage than even 25 years ago.

[MarcK]

Can someone point me to a case where failure to obey the rules led to loss of life? How many cases? How many cases vs. number of slide deployments overall?

[highflyer40]

pax boy- a divert is a different situation. you know your diverting.. fine get you meds and put them in your pocket. no drama. you have the time before you land. on a spur of the moment evac order stuff everything else and get off, or in my opinion go to the back of the line (ie stay in your seat and wait until everyone else has evacuated) bet you wouldn't care so much for your stuff then!

[rjtjrt]

There is no excuse for taking any time to get something out of an overhead locker in an emergency evacuation.
The is no pre existing medical situation that cannot be sorted out once on the ground after evacuation.

[fa2fi]

ExXB. I think it's utterly bizarre how you think it's perfectly safe for you to slow down an evac and directly risk someone safety. Yet you whinge about a particular airline doing a foreign language PA (not safety demo) with people stood?!?! I really don't get it.

[west lakes]

within 15-30 minute max you will be in the terminal building with full health care professionals able to supply all you need.

Really, I doubt it!
Looking at Ex XB and my self as type1 diabetics, there are a huge number of different insulins on the market that all act in different ways, it's not a one type fits all scenario.
To change from one to another needs specialist (Diabetic specialist) advice, how li8kely is it that the emergency response will include that?
And all the time the clock is ticking.

Looking at one of the other drugs I am on, it has this disclaimer
The information on this site is not country-specific and may contain information that is outside the approved indications in the country in which you are located.

So I could end up in a country where it is not available, lets say it was an evacuation due to fire and the aircraft burns down That is not a drug that could easily be obtained and no doubt something excluded from insurance cover.
We're not talking about phones. tickets, cards or anything like that which some see as their priority.
A bit like this thread
http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/552572-disabled-people-emergencies.html
Folk have serious concerns and the flippant get out of my way or I'll walk over you response helps no-one!

[Basil]

Well, there you have it. A diabetic's life is more important than that of anyone else on the aircraft.

Ref the thread mentioned by west lakes, I've posted the following:
I'd say that, if you don't want to get off then move into an empty row.
I think that, if you find yourself in the flow, you will be carried along.
DO NOT hold up the flow whilst you try to discuss with cabin crew or you may find yourself being walked over.

[mixture]

Folk have serious concerns and the flippant get out of my way or I'll walk over you response helps no-one!


I'm afraid its far from being a "flippant remark".

The decision to make the evacuation call is no doubt not taken lightly by the crew, so when the call is made, no doubt the expectation is that compliance will ensue and the aircraft be rendered empty in a timely and expedited manner.

If someone has a medical condition then fine, but it remains for them to find a way to NOT require the need to piss about and faff around in an overhead locker - remember afterall, that people who boarded after you may well have moved your bags or put coats or other bags infront or on top of your bags ..... which you'll have to move and deal with before getting access to yours !

Medical condition or no medical condition, if there's an evacuation and you're in my way rummaging through your bags, I'm not going to stand there and wait, I'm not going to engage in polite conversation about your possible medical conditions .... I'm going to shove you out the way and get the hell down that slide !

[west lakes]

If someone has a medical condition then fine, but it remains for them to find a way to NOT require the need to piss about and faff around in an overhead locker.

Which is what this thread is all about, to give those of us with concerns options to plan for the event if it occurs (and there are some useful ideas).
It is possibly also to draw others concerns to the attention of various posters so that they can see that all is not easy for others

So comments like:-
I'm going to shove you out the way and get the hell down that slide !
Show a total lack of concern for others who are trying to plan ahead and are in the context of someone asking questions basically selfish.
(though not me I'm sure some would happily plant an elbow in your face if you start pushing and shoving which might slow you down)

At any time have I suggested I'll be rooting in a locker? NO
If I've got a plan it is to prevent that as I'm well aware of the need to get out and not disrupt the flow of folk, but still feel that in some circumstances a piece of hand luggage is needed, these are banned because of the risks, quite correct, so I'm trying to find a risk free (to all passengers and crew) means of dealing with this!

I don't know, is the answer to have a clearly marked small bag for the medical stuff, agreement with regulators etc. that these are allowed on slides and agreement from all airlines that it can be carried on in addition to any "one piece of hand luggage rule"
You tell me!

[ExXB]

Well, the reality is, in recent evacuations some passengers have taken their rather bulky hand luggage with them.

No-one here has suggested ways that this can be prevented, other than shoving the offending passengers out of the way.

But, on the other hand, there is no empirical existence that taking stuff with you has delayed an evacuation or has resulted in injury or death. Some ladies have large hand bags. I have a small(er) personal bag ...

Yes, I really think the safety people need to have a look at this and have a good think about rules and regulations.

I can remember discussions on this forum not so long ago about how dangerous PEDs were, until it was decided that they aren't. No rules are sacrosanct, but having a rule and then not enforcing it is just plain stupid.

[MrSnuggles]

Interesting question.

west lakes, would it be possible to stash one-two days worth of supplies into one of these kind of bags (sorry, don't know the English word... ):
http://www.designonline.se/ProductImages/10-gruppen/11450/01/338x338/01.jpg

I would like to say it could fit in your front seat pocket, depending on size. What about putting it on the floor? Is it fragile? Could you double use it as a head rest?

This is small and handy and a far cry from the women going down the chutes with their entire shoe collection.

[west lakes]

would it be possible to stash one-two days worth of supplies into one of these kind of bagsThanks for a good suggestion
I'd probably do something using one of these

https://www.lifeventure.co.uk/assets/img/ee/uploads/product_images/hip-pack-2.jpg

As I already have a couple

[rethymnon]

I wonder whether our concern for people with medical conditions has got us away from the original point. Sure you can keep important documents and medications on your person if you think ahead. My point originally was that if the overhead lockers were centrally locked, would this certain knowledge have a positive effect on SLF behaviour? Is it worth trying?

Coupled perhaps with an announcement 'Those who wish to take hand luggage with them should remain seated until all other passengers have left the aircraft'.

[ExXB]

Rethymnon

Google pictures of the Asiana crash at SFO and see if you can find any pictures of the interior. Many of the overhead bins broke open and deposited their contents into the cabin.

While a severe impact almost everyone survived.

[ExXB]

Just out of curiosity, can someone say what the regulations permit passengers to take with them in an emergency evacuation. That is outside of what they have in their pockets. I 'think' it is nothing, not even a small bag suggested above, or a small handbag.

[MarcK]

The regulations (in the UK) must at least require a yellow vest.:rolleyes:

[obgraham]

This matter cannot be solved by "regulations". Reality will always trump.

In the event of emergency, the regulations are neither followed, nor enforced.

[PAXboy]

The other event we have seen in recent times is when pax open emergency exits without being instructed. It may be that there has been a precautionary landing and, whilst the crew are evaluating the situation - some pax opens the exit door and blows the slides.

Then watch the rest of the pax go loopy and follow them. No crew is going to be able to stop them.

[west lakes]

The other event we have seen in recent times is when pax open emergency exits without being instructed

Not forgetting the incident in China when the passenger just wanted some fresh air. Just as the aircraft was on it's take off run!

[YorkshireTyke]

I have a "uniform" shirt purchased from a Travel Emporium selling items essential for camping and long safaris in Darkest Africa, that I always travel in, this has many voluminous pockets, some zipped, into which I decant passports, credit cards, tickets, travel itinerary, cash, essential pills ( complete with prescription to satisfy the most unreasonable drug Police) etc. etc. that I consider essential for an evacuation and enforced stay in inhospitable - i.e. dealing with banks and bureaucracy following a disaster - terrain.

A PITA to unload and reload to pass through security, and creates a minor bottleneck - tough, it's "their" system. All largely undetected to the casual glance of a passing mugger or baggage checking cabin crew, and the increased weight will assist my descent down the chute.

So come on what is the revised suggestion?

Don't fly.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

If you want to get items/bags out of the overhead lockers during an emergency evacuations may l suggest the following.
1. Always sit in a window seat, so you will not get in the way.
2. Exit the a/c after everyone else.
Remember if someone goes out the door with a bag and rips the slide, no one is going out that exit after you have.
One other issue l have noticed over the years, more and more emergency evacuations are taking place for problems like hot brakes and engine failures. Years ago the Captain would use his experience and common sense and wait for the emergency services to attend the incident.
I have read reports of air-conditioning ducts rupture while the a/c is on stand, sending clouds of dust into the cabin and the crew blowing the slides.
Sometimes l wonder if in an emergency evacuation, l might sit tight and wait for everyone to get out before deciding if l want to get out or not.

[PAXboy]

This is interesting. Right on cue this week, we have an evac (no fire) as the a/c ran off the end of the runway in monsoon rain. The thread is running in Rumours & News.

The picture shows (as we now expect) someone has used their mobile BUT of the pax already out - no hand baggage.
http://manila.coconuts.co/2014/12/30/airasia-overshots-kalibo-runway

Further, this is quoted in the thread:
According to Jet Damazo Santos, a journalist from Rappler Indonesia, passengers had to leave the aircraft using its emergency slide.

"Engine was shut immediately, we were told to leave bags, deplane asap. Firetruck was waiting. Seems handled well," she posted on her Twitter account. "Nobody seems to be hurt. Weather was bad because of #senangph. Plane came to a very abrupt stop."My emphasis to link to this thread.