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SpringHeeledJack
21st Dec 2014, 12:33
BBC News - Lockerbie bombing: Relatives mark 26th anniversary (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/30568134)

I always find myself thinking about this sad event at this time of the year, I even dreamt of watching a Pan Am 747 coming in to land a couple of nights ago. All such happenings are sad, but somehow knowing that the majority of these passengers and crew were on their way happily to spend the next days with loved ones and then they weren't……The hardy people tasked with the cleanup and investigation lost their Christmas too, as did anyone in and around Lockerbie. :(


SHJ

fa2fi
21st Dec 2014, 12:40
Very sad time of the year. This is the earliest memory I have as a child so it's always been engrained in me.

It was very moving to see the documentary this year of a woman who found out a son she had to have adopted found out he died in the disaster.

It's strange to see people from UK post all sorts of things on FB on the anniversary of 9/11 yet people don't ever mention Lockerbie despite it happening just 70 miles from where we live.

Low Flier
21st Dec 2014, 15:03
Let's not forget any of the 271 victims, nor any of the families.

271? Yes, the 271st victim was Megrahi. Falsely accused, wrongfully convicted. Died a couple of dozen years after the rest of the victims.

Let's not forget also the 290 victims, and their families, of IR655 whose bombing on the 3rd of July the same year led directly to the revenge mass murder known as Operation Intekam, known to us as PA103.

bcgallacher
21st Dec 2014, 15:17
Low Flier - you are one of the few who have really looked at this with an open mind,sadly we seem to be a minority.

Effluent Man
21st Dec 2014, 15:31
From what I have read it seems highly unlikely that he-or the Libyans - were responsible. Iran seems a much more likely to have arranged it in reprisal for the US Navy shooting down one of their airliners.

wings folded
21st Dec 2014, 15:38
Let's not forget any of the 271 victims, nor any of the families.

271? Yes, the 271st victim was Megrahi. Falsely accused, wrongfully convicted. Died a couple of dozen years after the rest of the victims.


I do not have enough reliable information to know about the case against Megarahi, but it all seems a bit smelly, so let's say 271.


Let's not forget also the 290 victims, and their families, of IR655 whose bombing on the 3rd of July the same year led directly to the revenge mass murder known as Operation Intekam, known to us as PA103.

Because it is never spoken about nowadays, "IR655" could be a bit cryptic to some.

An Iranian Airbus shot down by the US ship Vincennes who "mistook it" for an F14/15/16/17/18??? - I can't remember the number exactly, but since the crew of the Vincennes seem to have been confused also, I am to be excused.

The revenge perpetrated on the PanAm flight, if so it was, was inexcusable. The Vincennes attack was equally deplorable.

I will join the low flier, bcgallacher minority if they will have me.

Low Flier
21st Dec 2014, 15:41
Yes, we are a minority, but the corollary is that the great majority of people who look at the evidence objectively come to the conclusion that the case against Libya was a concocted fabrication.

It was, quite literally, a bloody shame on the Scottish legal system and establishment.

wings folded
21st Dec 2014, 15:54
Yes, we are a minority, but the corollary is that the great majority of people who look at the evidence objectively come to the conclusion that the case against Libya was a concocted fabrication.

It was, quite literally, a bloody shame on the Scottish legal system and establishment.

Just a couple of observations:

I try to avoid expressions like "great majority" or "vast majority" since we do not know and cannot know what the majority thinks, since it, the majority, tends to be silent

I would agree that there was perhaps a lack of rigour in the process, but holding the process under Scots law but outside of Scotland appeared to me to be appropriate. And what system of law could resist diplomatic and political pressures upon factors such as admissibilty of evidence? Or production/disclosure of evidence?

fitliker
21st Dec 2014, 16:04
So, who done it ?
If the guy who admitted to the deed ,did not do it: Who did ?
And are they going to do it again ?

Low Flier
21st Dec 2014, 16:19
Whodunnit?

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command, that's who.

We know who made the bomb. We even have data on the invoice and receipt for payment. It was one of a series which was made by a sub-contractor called Marwan Khreesat. Most of the others in the series were captured by the German police.

We know that the original agreed lump sum for the revenge project was $10M and that the eventual sum paid, when incidental expenses were added in, was nearer $11M.

We know that the guy who probably bought the clothes from the shop in Malta wasn't Libyan and we know that he had the date of Dec 21 circled in red on his desk calendar. We also know that he subsequently changed his nom de guerre from Abu Talb to Abu Intekam. We also know that he was in Malta on the most probable date of the actual purchase of the clothes and that Megrahi probably wasn't.

There is very very little credible evidence connecting Megrahi to PA103. Very little indeed - and none of that was adduced at trial.

wings folded
21st Dec 2014, 16:19
So, who done it ?
If the guy who admitted to the deed ,did not do it: Who did ?
And are they going to do it again ?

It would not be a first for somebody to admit to a crime they had not committed. "Scapegoat" is a good term, or sacrificial lamb if you prefer.

So, as to "who did" - we perhaps do not know, we mere mortals, but do governmental intelligence services know? Perhaps.

Will they do it again? Not quite the same technique, but something similar, quite possibly

bcgallacher
21st Dec 2014, 16:32
Can I suggest that anyone convinced of Megrahi's guilt Google 'The Framing of Megrahi' and read the article by Gareth Pierce and other pieces.I believe any intelligent person would be left with doubts. The transcript of the trial can be found online also - it is heavy going but I would not have convicted a cat on the prosecution evidence.It would appear that the bombing was carried out by the PFLP -GC at the behest of Iran,payment being 11 million dollars. Other myths regarding Megrahi's release - Oil and arms deals with the British government seem to ignore the fact that the British Government had no authority over Megrahi.He was under the jurisdiction of the Scottish legal system. My belief is that he was released before the appeal was heard to avoid embarrassment to the Scottish Government and legal system.

Low Flier
21st Dec 2014, 16:37
It would not be a first for somebody to admit to a crime they had not committed.

Megrahi never admitted to the crime. Neither did Fahima. Neither did Libya.

Neither did Abu Talb, though in his case he scarcely needed to. He has been given an assurance that he will never be prosecuted by the UK or the US. He's done his time for an unrelated murder in Scandinavia and his release from prison for that murder coincided with Megrahi's medical repatriation, within a week or so, and none of the Press reported that!

PFLP-GC has never been put on the stand, so they've never had occasion to confirm or deny what they did.

Khreesat was a double-double (triple?) agent, in the pay of the Americans and the Jordanians and the Palestinians and the Iranians. No need or requirement for an admission of guilt there!

Wheels within wheels, but really don't think Megrahi was even a cog in the mechanism of the machine which brought down PA103.

bcgallacher
21st Dec 2014, 16:46
Megrahi never admitted guilt - If you want a name try Ahmed Jibril.
I take a close interest in this case for several reasons - I am a Scot, I maintained Boeing 747s for 30 years and after the collapse of PanAm did several operations with ex PanAm cockpit and cabin crew who were friends and colleagues of the crew killed at Lockerbie.If those who were lost were like those I worked with they were good people.

kms901
21st Dec 2014, 16:54
R.I.P. Bill Cadman

Low Flier
21st Dec 2014, 16:58
R.I.P. Bill Cadman

Hear hear! A truth seeker and a truth teller.

Sadder that he outlived his son Martin, but sad too that his voice is now only a recording of Truth.

Low Flier
22nd Dec 2014, 00:22
Yup. Ahmed Jibril, if you want to name a single individual as "the Lockerbie bomber".

He was the head honcho of the prime contractor, PFLP-GC.

The main captain or lieutenant on the Intekam job was almost certainly Abu Talb.

I really can't see where Megrahi fits into the puzzle, if he does at all. He certainly wasn't involved in the bomb-making and I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence that he was involved in the supply chain of the bomb. To the contrary, there's evidence that the bomb could not have traveled on the Air Malta flight to Frankfurt.

The connection between Megrahi and the bomb simply wasn't made at the trial in Kamp Zeist. That fact, alone, should have resulted in an acquittal.

I don't doubt that Megrahi had been involved with Libyan Intelligence, but that's not a crime in my country. I accept that he was probably present at, or at least had detailed knowledge of, a meeting in Malta of terrorists who intended to put together a multi-agency plan to co-operate in the plotting of a terrorist outrage against Israel or her sponsor nation, the USA. That meeting included reps from the PFLP-GC, but it was not to do with IR655. It quite certainly looked at possibilities of a terrorist attack against a civil airliner, but that's normal for those arseholes. It's the sort of crap they do, from Dawson Field to the WTC and elsewhere.

I wish some of the government supporters here on PPRuNe could put forward some credible evidence that Megrahi was involved in Intekam/PA103/Lockerbie. I've been looking quite closely at the topic for well over a quarter of a century now, and I'm quite well informed, if somewhat bewildered sometimes by the gumment crap.

I truly want to know what credible evidence exists to support a conviction for the person who was 'crucified' for a crime which he almost certainly had no part in and quite certainly did not take an active part in.

Clare Prop
22nd Dec 2014, 01:37
I've read that the Maltese shopkeeper was rewarded for his "evidence" with a large sum of money, a new identity and a new life in Australia?

A family member worked for a Libyan company for most of his working life and is convinced of Megrahi's innocence. Also apparently the "cheering crowds" on the vision of him arriving back in Libya were edited in.

RIPto all who lost their lives :(

bcgallacher
22nd Dec 2014, 01:52
The shopkeeper and his brother were reported to have received $3million between them - he never at any time actually identified Megrahi - the best he could come up with is that he looked like the man who bought the clothes
. This was in spite of the fact that Megrahi did not fit the description that he had given earlier.
I believe that Gaddaffi sent the two individuals for trial because he knew they were not involved in the bombing and expected that to be proven at the trial. The Libyan security chief defected to the UK about 2 years ago -he was interviewed by the Scottish police then allowed to depart to Dubai - no report on this has to my knowledge been made public. If anyone knew that Libya was involved he would. The whole thing has a bad smell and is a disgrace to to the Scottish legal system.

Low Flier
22nd Dec 2014, 02:42
a disgrace to to the Scottish legal system

A disgrace to us all.