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Boudreaux Bob
20th Dec 2014, 22:22
It was bound to happen.

After all the Lies told about the Mike Brown Case, and the Media hyping the Case in complete defiance of the Truth and Reality....and the President and Attorney General pouring petrol on the fire with their Rhetoric and Actions.....is there any doubt Police Officers are going to be targeted.

Anyone care to bet we hear nothing about this from Obama and Holder or Sharpton and Jackson? Will the Congressional Black Caucus, NAACP, ACLU or any of the other Groups that fueled the emotions of the Black Community going to speak out against this kind of action?



2 NYPD cops shot dead Execution Style as ?revenge? for Garner - Wounded American Warrior (http://woundedamericanwarrior.com/2-nypd-cops-shot-dead-execution-style-revenge-garner/)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
20th Dec 2014, 22:32
My sympathies.
If every suicidal African-American takes out two cops....

Have a look down this list
Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire (http://www.tribunesandtriumphs.org/roman-empire/causes-for-the-fall-of-the-roman-empire.htm)

The Major Causes for the Fall of the Roman Empire

Antagonism between the Senate and the Emperor
Decline in Morals
Political Corruption and the Praetorian Guard
Fast expansion of the Empire
Constant Wars and Heavy Military Spending
Barbarian Knowledge of Roman Military Tactics
Failing Economy
Unemployment of the Working Classes (The Plebs)
The 'Mob' and the cost of the 'Games'
Decline in Ethics and Values
Slave Labor
Natural Disasters
Christianity (i.e. a religious belief in the afterlife for the desperate)
Barbarian Invasion

Boudreaux Bob
20th Dec 2014, 22:41
Read "America-Imagine the World Without Her" by Dinesh D'Souza....very scary book but very on point.

Remember it took the Romans a Thousand Years to do themselves in and the American Ascendancy started at the end of WWII.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
20th Dec 2014, 22:51
My library has 2 copies - one now on order for me.

But almost all the points about empire collapse are not dependent on the merits or otherwise of the American Way.

Boudreaux Bob
20th Dec 2014, 23:27
Antagonism between the Senate and the Emperor
As in the disconnect between Obama and the Congress
Decline in Morals
Drug use, Street gangs, Unwed Mothers, etc
Political Corruption and the Praetorian Guard
Money in Politics/Politicized DOJ/FBI/IRS
Fast expansion of the Empire
18 Trillion Dollars of Debt/65 Trillion unfunded Liabilities
Constant Wars and Heavy Military Spending
Korea/Vietnam/Cold War/Gulf 1-3/
Barbarian Knowledge of Roman Military Tactics
Walker/Snowden/other Security Failures
Failing Economy
No Growth/Loss of Hi-Tech Jobs and Manufactuering Overseas/Deficit Spending for Decades
Unemployment of the Working Classes (The Plebs)
Lowest Labor Rate in History/High Unemployment/Loss of Full Time Jobs
The 'Mob' and the cost of the 'Games'
Mafia/Drug Cartels/Wall Street Financial Crimes
Decline in Ethics and Values
Welfare State/Decline in Religious Values/Declining Educational Standards
Slave Labor
Undocumented Workers/Flooded Job Market
Natural Disasters
Drought/Invasive Species/Disease/Crop Diseases
Christianity (i.e. a religious belief in the afterlife for the desperate)
Barbarian Invasion
Illegal Aliens/Un-Assimilated Immigrants


Things like that you mean?

Fox3WheresMyBanana
21st Dec 2014, 00:04
Yeh, stuff like that.

The Decline in Morals of the politicians is more important - they are mostly completely shameless now (and that goes for most western democracies, Canada included)
I was thinking more of Iraq Invasion/Afghanistan for the wars, since they were (a) very expensive and (b) lost.
By the 'Mob' and cost of the 'Games', I meant keeping enough of the idle electorate voting (and not rioting) and welfare/pork barrel politics.
The Welfare state itself is not necessarily the problem, but the way it's being exploited is.

But basically, yeh.

rh200
21st Dec 2014, 00:08
I wonder if Obama is going to come out and say

"If I had a brother he would be just like Ismaaiyl".

I see Anonymous has made a preemptive strike, saying its disgusting and murder is no way to solve problems. They must be feeling guilty, as unfortunately its blow back from work like theirs.

I'm also wonder if the perpetrator is going to get the hero's treatment by some of the more radical left, as they and some European countries in the past have done when American cops have been murdered.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
21st Dec 2014, 00:21
Statistically, there appear to be about 400-500 murder-suicides by black men every year.

p.j.m
21st Dec 2014, 00:52
It was bound to happen.

After all the Lies told about the Mike Brown Case, and the Media hyping the Case in complete defiance of the Truth and Reality....and the President and Attorney General pouring petrol on the fire with their Rhetoric and Actions.....is there any doubt Police Officers are going to be targeted.

Any wonder when police are charged with assault for arresting a criminal who is trying to escape?

Exactly the same thing happened in Sydney recently, when a thief from Brazil was tackled and tazered by police when he was escaping. High on drugs, he put up a huge fight, policeman found guilty of assault, Australian media beats up the poor brazillian and his grief struck family.

yep, its a sad day, when the criminals have more rights than the police trying to arrest them.

Even sadder when the media make the good guys look like the bad guys for nothing other than sensualising their story.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
21st Dec 2014, 01:15
The media are part of the modern 'games'. Sex and horror, underdogs and heroes. Almost none of it for anything more than entertainment.

Carbon Bootprint
21st Dec 2014, 04:53
The media are part of the modern 'games'. Sex and horror, underdogs and heroes. Almost none of it for anything more than entertainment.So true. Paddy Chayefsky predicted all of this back in 1976 with his film "Network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_(film))," with Faye Dunaway and William Holden (not to forget Peter Finch, Robert Duvall and Ned Beatty). A beautifully acted film but one that was nevertheless spot on with what was to become the future of network news. In other words, what we have now.

We just don't have people saying "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more." Not yet, anyway.

Two's in
21st Dec 2014, 12:27
You read what others want you to read. You hear the "facts" that others want you to hear. By the time you have waded through the media bias and the political partisanship, there is a very slender remnant of truth in there. If you are reacting to something you saw on the news, you have already been manipulated by others.

As Fox Mulder used to say, "the truth is out there" but you won't be getting it from a media source or a politician ever.

bcgallacher
21st Dec 2014, 14:03
Sadly just another American nutter with access to a firearm exercising his second amendment right. There are 30 or 40 U.S. Policemen shot dead every year,with the gun culture that exists don't expect any change in the foreseeable future. Society has created a monster without the means to control it,more and more a country developing a siege mentality.

Mr Chips
21st Dec 2014, 14:10
You are aware that people get murdered in other countries too? This is more about the murder of two police officers than a chance to bash US Gun culture...but you just crack on....

galaxy flyer
21st Dec 2014, 15:19
bcgallagher

Please post a legal justification where the Second Amendment confers a "right" to murder anyone?

GF

Burnie5204
21st Dec 2014, 15:55
And now I'm hearing another officer has been murdered in Florida

bcgallacher
21st Dec 2014, 17:49
Galaxy Flyer - was he not excercising his right to bear arms? The fact that he killed two police officers is a different matter. 30 or 40 US police officers are shot dead every year - are you inferring that this is not connected with the easy availability of firearms? There will be about the same number shot dead next year as there is nothing being done - in truth there is nothing that can be done, to reduce the death toll.

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 18:04
You didn't answer his question.

I will answer it for you. There is no connection between constitutional rights and murder.

You're welcome.

chuks
21st Dec 2014, 18:05
That's about as reasonable as looking at someone who uses his car to kill, saying that, well, he had a driving license! The right to bear arms brings with it an obligation to use those arms properly, not to kill two policemen and then yourself.

27 policemen were feloniously killed in 2013, a decrease from 2012 with 49, and from 2011 with 72, all in the USA. So much for your prediction about the numbers. That's way off, but what it shows about a certain mindset many foreigners betray in looking at the USA from abroad, making wild guesses at the truth of the situation, that you got 100% right.

John Hill
21st Dec 2014, 18:54
Guns, especially hand guns, are designed to kill people unlike cars which have a quite different primary purpose.

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 18:57
Cant believe there is no rioting and looting in response to the murder of those officers and the one in Florida. Strange that.

galaxy flyer
21st Dec 2014, 19:00
John Hill,

Saying guns are designed only to kill people makes as sense saying knives are designed to kill people or cars are designed to kill people. All inanimate objects do exactly what the bearer wants to do with them. I can slice a turkey or stab my enemy; run over a pedestrian or take a sick child to the ER. It's all in the intent if the user. I "killed" 80 out of 100 clay pigeons yesterday and put a lot holes in target with a pistol, does that constitute criminal activity?

GF

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 19:01
Yet when someone decides to use a vehicle as a weapon, it's supremely efficient at killing.

Better ban them as well due to potential of misuse. My handguns haven't killed a soul, but as I prepare to head out to finish my Christmas shopping, no one better cut me off to get that last parking spot at the mall as I could use my truck for something it wasn't intended for.

John Hill
21st Dec 2014, 19:51
Better ban them as well due to potential of misuse. Vehicles you mean? Obviously, killing someone with a gun however is not 'misuse' as that is what the gun is designed, intended and manufactured to do.

bcgallacher
21st Dec 2014, 19:58
If guns are not designed to kill people they do a very good job of doing so in the USA to the tune of 30,000 per year and I read today that in 13 states deaths from gunshot exceed those from auto accidents - must make you really proud. As far as police deaths are concerned there are varying figures as even the FBI does not collate the figures. However many it is it is still far too many - no other developed country has so many deaths of police officers and civilians. You kill your policemen and ordinary citizens in horrendous numbers.

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2014, 20:03
Ah! - so at last one American has had the balls to use his constitution-guaranteed (and therefore sky-fairy-given) human right to bear arms to defend himself against the forces of the state, as the constitution intended!

After our nice safe holiday in Jamaica last year, we're also looking for somewhere safer than the USA for this year, Burma being currently top of the list.

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 20:10
According to this page 48 Police Officers killed with firearms this year in USA.
Law Enforcement Line of Duty Deaths in 2014 (http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2014)

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 20:17
John.

I've had handguns for years yet haven't killed a person with them bar some paper targets. You make assumptions that's what MY weapons are for

chuks
21st Dec 2014, 20:17
Not all guns are designed to kill. My target rifle is designed to mimic a .22-calibre target rifle, but it only fires a .177-calibre lead pellet. That might kill a mouse but that's about it. Even the .22 target rifle is not designed to kill, although, of course, it's much more dangerous than the pellet rifle.

I think the owner's intent comes much more into this. I know many gun owners who seem to be perfectly safe and sane people, but then I know of some tasteless car owners who go about with no regard for cries of pain wrung from onlookers with seared optical nerves, innocent victims of theirs who may well then stumble into traffic and suffer deadly harm.

I think a case could well be made for the banning of some vehicles as assault weapons, assault weapons aimed at the visual sense of people with even a quantum of taste. Some of these vehicles, in fact, are such monstrosities that being run over by such a one is probably preferable to being forced to gaze upon it. Too, as vehicles they do not fall under the 2nd Amendment, even assuming they might be found in our fair land to which that amendment applies.

Mr Chips
21st Dec 2014, 20:19
A Police officer was killed in the UK with a hand grenade, we should totally ban hand grenades.

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 20:27
You may well be surprised to see that they are already banned 😜

con-pilot
21st Dec 2014, 20:29
You may well be surprised to see that they are already banned 😜

I think that is the point. :rolleyes:

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 20:34
Gertie
what is your obsession with Jamaica WRT being a statistically safer place to vacation than the US? Can you substantiate that with facts?

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 20:36
Agreed, but if they were not banned Im sure many more people would have been killed with them.

con-pilot
21st Dec 2014, 20:40
?California woman charged after car crashes into crowd, killing 4 - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-woman-charged-after-car-crashes-into-crowd-killing-4/)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
21st Dec 2014, 20:45
Doesn't seem to be anything anti-authority in the last post.
You can die of anything. 5 people just died from listeria in caramel apples.
Listeria in caramel apples kills at least 4; cases in 10 states - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/listeria-in-caramel-apples-kills-2-in-minnesota/)

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 20:50
Ban caramel apples!

Mr Chips
21st Dec 2014, 20:54
Simplythebeast I'm really sorry if you totally missed the point in my post.

Hand grenades are of course banned in the UK, at least from private ownership, as are handguns and yet two serving Police Officers were murdered using guns and a hand grenade.

My point is that murder is murder, and focussing on the instrument used is again, totally missing the point. I think every time I picked up a newspaper last week there was a story about a murder, with guns, knives, whatever the killer chose to use.

To turn a thread about Cop killings into yet another rant about US gun laws is frankly ridiculous and quite tiresome.

"The Mob" (which apparently doesn't exist) having been whipped to a frenzy and lied to by civil rights activists and the media have starting killing.

Perhaps we should rant against cop killers rather than guns or the US constitution....

con-pilot
21st Dec 2014, 20:55
Don't like caramel apples.


No chocolate.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
21st Dec 2014, 20:58
Chocolate? Perfectly safe!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/05/article-2070157-05EEF2B30000044D-23_468x363.jpg

unless you're a chair, of course

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 21:05
Mr Chips, I fully agree. It doesnt matter whether those officers were killed with firearms or were beaten to death like the unfortunate Merseyside officer the other day. Guns in the USA are an issue for Americans and no amount of bashing by anyone outside of their borders will or should change that.
It is sad to see the numbers of law enforcement officers who are murdered using guns though as it is so easy to kill with such weapons without having to get up close so they will always be the weapon of choice for the majority where they are available.

galaxy flyer
21st Dec 2014, 21:10
guns are not designed to kill people they do a very good job of doing so in the USA

Silly argument, again. The guns didn't kill, the one holding them did. Yes, sounds like the bumper sticker, but the fact is the US has more murderers than the UK, PERIOD. That they use guns, knives or screwdrivers is not the reason for the murders. I believe the UK now leads the US in beheadings of military and police. We haven't off'd any police with a hand grenade, either. And, say what you want, the US Special Forces haven't been used to murder our citizens like the SAS in NI.

GF

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 21:10
That chair hasn't to be bordering if not exceeding its design capabilities. Oh well, in EU countries he/she could be collecting money for that obvious "disability "

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 21:14
Oh dear......GF.

Simplythebeast
21st Dec 2014, 21:15
I think US National Guard may have terminated one or two.
Kent State shootings for example?

Pappa Smurf
21st Dec 2014, 21:46
Ok,owning a gun is legal,but how many actually carry a handgun on them all the time.I cant imagine to many would.

parabellum
21st Dec 2014, 21:51
the US Special Forces haven't been used to murder our citizens like the SAS in NI.

Have to disagree there GF. A state of emergency existed in NI. A gang of IRA preparing a massive explosion, intended to kill people, walk into an ambush and several are killed, that isn't murder, that is losing!

Back to the original topic, there has been a ready supply of illicit handguns into the UK since the Berlin wall came down and they are still very easy to obtain in parts of Europe. Killings with handguns in the UK are usually carried out with unlicensed and illegal weapons, UK gun control hasn't done anything to reduce killings, just screwed up a perfectly harmless sport, enjoyed by thousands and all for political gain.

Flying Lawyer
21st Dec 2014, 21:54
Gertrude Ah! - so at last one American has had the balls to use his constitution-guaranteed (and therefore sky-fairy-given) human right to bear arms to defend himself against the forces of the state, as the constitution intended!

When I read some of the things you post here, I sometimes wonder if you'd be prepared to say them in your own name as a Lib Dem local councillor.
UKIP local councillors could learn a lot from you.

After our nice safe holiday in Jamaica last year, we're also looking for somewhere safer than the USA for this year, Burma being currently top of the list.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/AI-CH908_LATAM_G_20140412014204.jpg

Nice safe holiday in Jamaica last year?
Did you leave the hotel compound and explore the island on your own? Most Brits don't.
Some improvement has to be acknowledged; Jamaica used to be higher up the table.


The following is from memory so feel free to check and correct if necessary:
The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - significantly ahead of any other country.
However, it does not have the worst firearm murder rate - the US is around number 28.

Comparison with peer countries would probably disclose a very different result, but you didn't make a peer comparison.


FL

Flying Lawyer
21st Dec 2014, 22:34
parabellum

I won't comment upon your response to GF, but am interested in a comment in the second part of your post:UK gun control hasn't done anything to reduce killings, just screwed up a perfectly harmless sport, enjoyed by thousands and all for political gain.
Do you suggest that the UK gun control legislation should be relaxed?

parabellum
21st Dec 2014, 23:00
Yes, but only for legitimate pistol club shooters, engaged in target shooting competitions, (or just fun target shoots), in controlled and licensed club premises and with strict controls on the storage of weapons in the home. Additionally, the Australian system requires a person to have strict background checks as well as being a member of a club where they must demonstrate regular attendance and a genuine interest in target shooting for at least six months before a licence to own is issued. I also believe that calibres up to 9mm should be allowed.

air pig
21st Dec 2014, 23:07
Flying Lawyer, from your esteemed position, you are aware that criminal elements in the UK have little difficulty in obtaining firearms and that the present controls on private ownership were brought in after Hangerford and Dunblane. It is reported the perpetrators of both crimes, were known to the police in that their firearms licences should have been withdrawn and there weapons confiscated. The case in Cumbria a couple of years ago was again due to the authorities not taking action when a problem became apparent.

Is it true that the 100 year rule was activated on the records pertaining to both Hungerford and Dunblane.

Flying Lawyer
21st Dec 2014, 23:24
parabellum

This report suggests there is a growing problem in Australia: Hundreds of guns stolen across NSW as thieves target private homes and firearms charges rise (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/hundreds-of-guns-stolen-across-nsw-as-thieves-target-private-homes-and-firearms-charges-rise/story-fni0cx12-1227048229707)

I express no opinion - I don't know enough about it to do so.
What do you think?


air pig

I agree that criminal elements in the UK appear to have little difficulty in obtaining firearms.
I don't know the answer to your '100 year rule' question

FL

air pig
21st Dec 2014, 23:31
Re Dunblane, the Cullen Enquiery took evidence from the police about Hamilton and there interaction with him and the documents were sealed for 100 years onstensibly to protect the indentities and records of the incident. Some think this was a cover up to protect the police for its inaction and culpability in this heinous crime. The Procuator Fiscal does not come out of it well either.

galaxy flyer
21st Dec 2014, 23:52
How can they possibly seal police documents for 100 years? Heck, they're not Princess Diana's records. Stinks of police culpability.

GF

prospector
22nd Dec 2014, 00:19
Even being a fat "handicapped" person can be used for lethal purposes, are we going to ban being fat?

Fat man kills nativity donkey | World | 3 News (http://www.3news.co.nz/world/fat-man-kills-nativity-donkey-2014121812)

bcgallacher
22nd Dec 2014, 01:10
Galaxy Flyer - The IRA was an armed terrorist movement responsible for thousands of bombings and shootings. The authorities in the USA have killed your own terrorists such as one of the Boston bombers,the Symbionese liberation Army,Black Panthers etc so the relevance of your statement escapes me.

West Coast
22nd Dec 2014, 01:14
France: Driver shouting ?Allahu Akbar? ploughs car into pedestrians in Dijon | News | DW.DE | 21.12.2014 (http://www.dw.de/france-driver-shouting-allahu-akbar-ploughs-car-into-pedestrians-in-dijon/a-18145172)

Yup, ban vehicles.

bcgallacher
22nd Dec 2014, 01:18
Parabellum - UK gun control has not done much to reduce killings? Last year there were 50 gunshot deaths in the UK from all causes,the British police fired 3 shots killing nobody.We have not had a policeman shot dead since 2012. You must be a little lacking in the common sense department if you think gun controls have nothing to do with these figures. The gun crime figures are steadily decreasing - along with most other violent crime in spite of what the Daily Mail proclaims.

Hempy
22nd Dec 2014, 04:09
FL, here is a peer comparison. The US, as you say, doesn't fair badly against 3rd world countries. It would be an interesting study as to why the lighter areas are in fact lighter though, don't you think?

http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_1454_5e98bb62151888364dab530706dd6742

rh200
22nd Dec 2014, 06:28
It would be an interesting study as to why the lighter areas are in fact lighter though, don't you think?

Not really, social issues, guns just exasperate the problem. Culture and social issues are the big driver of most problems, every thing else is just a modulator.

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Dec 2014, 07:40
Yes, but only for legitimate pistol club shooters, engaged in target shooting competitions, (or just fun target shoots), in controlled and licensed club premises and with strict controls on the storage of weapons in the home. Additionally, the Australian system requires a person to have strict background checks as well as being a member of a club where they must demonstrate regular attendance and a genuine interest in target shooting for at least six months before a licence to own is issued. I also believe that calibres up to 9mm should be allowed.

The only way back for club shooters would be the compulsory storage of their weapons in a secure facility at the gun club. There is absolutely no reason for guns of that kind to be in the home and I doubt there would ever be support from the public for that.

Guns stored at the gun club and strictly controlled use at the gun club seems eminently sensible where as guns back in the home does not.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2014, 08:25
Did you leave the hotel compound and explore the island on your own?
Never set foot inside one of those prison camps - the armed guards are to keep the inmates in, so that they don't discover they can buy lunch for less than $2 outside.


We rented a 4WD (a 2WD having proved inadequate for some of the roads on our previous visit), drove round pretty well the whole island, and stayed mostly in farmhouses and village B&Bs.

rh200
22nd Dec 2014, 09:54
The only way back for club shooters would be the compulsory storage of their weapons in a secure facility at the gun club.

True on a realistic level.

There is absolutely no reason for guns of that kind to be in the home

Not true, avid shooters do a lot of mods, cleaning and tuning of their guns. One I know used to sit for what seemed like hours on the throne pulling the trigger. All you could hear for yonks at a time was, click, click, click ..., intertwined with odd fart. Getting to know the feel of your trigger and exact position it lets go is important.

and I doubt there would ever be support from the public for that.

True

Flying Lawyer
22nd Dec 2014, 10:08
Gertrude

Thank you for answering that incidental question in my post.
I'm pleased you had a safe holiday in the country with the 6th highest homicide rate in the world.

Will you be responding to the main points?

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Dec 2014, 10:17
Not true, avid shooters do a lot of mods, cleaning and tuning of their guns. One I know used to sit for what seemed like hours on the throne pulling the trigger. All you could hear for yonks at a time was, click, click, click ..., intertwined with odd fart. Getting to know the feel of your trigger and exact position it lets go is important.


Do all of that at the gun club under supervision. What you suggest may be more convenient but allowing guns back into the home is almost certainly never going to happen. The compromise I suggest is also unlikely.

SMT Member
22nd Dec 2014, 10:36
I find it staggering how someone can, with a straight face, equate cars with guns.

No car designer ever sat down with a clean sheet of paper and brief saying 'design this to be the most efficient killer you can'. For gun manufacturers the exact opposite is true. And while you can, of course, use your family wagon to mow a crowd of innocent bystanders down, it's not really possible to take the family to grandma's house in your .356 Magnum.

Violence begts violence, and when you have a society which glorifies violence*, is petrified by sex* and takes hypocrisy to grotesque and hitherto unknown levels, well, what did you expect?

There is really only one argument for private gun ownership: I like guns, I think they're cool. And that's fair enough, but please spare us the idiocy!

*Whilst simultaneous being the biggest producer of porn and having one of the highest percentages in the 1st world claiming to be deeply religious.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2014, 10:54
Will you be responding to the main points?
Yes, I'm quite happy to say with my party hat on that I find US gun culture bizarre. I'm perfectly certain that the vast majority of my political colleagues would agree with me.

Flying Lawyer
22nd Dec 2014, 10:55
I take it that's a 'No' then.

I'm quite happy to say with my party hat on that I find US gun culture bizarre

That is not what you said.
If it had been, I wouldn't have responded to your earlier post.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Dec 2014, 12:14
There is really only one argument for private gun ownership:

There are lots, depending on the country.
Feeding your family and defending against predators would be two.

rgbrock1
22nd Dec 2014, 12:21
chuks wrote:

Even the .22 target rifle is not designed to kill, although, of course, it's much more dangerous than the pellet rifle.

That's a bit inaccurate chuks. You know that M16 you used to trod around with in the jungles of southeast Asia so many moons ago? Well, as you know that fired the 5.56mm round, no? A .22 cal is approx equivalent. :ok:

onetrack
22nd Dec 2014, 12:26
You know, if those 2 Police Officers that were gunned down in cold blood by a crim, were suitably armed with handguns, and had them ready to hand, they would have taken that crim out before he even had a chance to ............. Oh, hang on .... :(

Why the deafening silence from the NRA and its followers, with their regular mantra?? ... :rolleyes:

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Dec 2014, 13:24
When a criminal (in this case, a fella who had already shot his ex gf) uses a firearm to commit a crime, one or two of the usual suspects here leap to the conclusion that generally law abiding citizens should not have a right to own firearms.

Until you accept that you have a perceptual problem, what choice have I to consider you other than a ship of fools?


Others wish to debate how to improve things however some are incapable of opening their minds to that :ok:

rgbrock1
22nd Dec 2014, 13:37
This thread started out as an observation, by Bob, concerning two NYPD officers gunned down while in the line of duty.

It has now, as usual, denigrated into a "gun" thread and a bash America thread.

How utterly pathetic.

rgbrock1
22nd Dec 2014, 14:22
Candlelight vigil last night in Brooklyn, NY at the site where the 2 NYPD officers were murdered. At the vigil and expressing condolences: Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Orientals et al. Doesn't matter race, creed or anything else: we appreciate our NYPD police. And in times like these, we honor them.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2053197.1419259454!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/2-nypd-officers-dead-brooklyn-shooting.jpg

Nigd3
22nd Dec 2014, 14:39
As a frequent visitor to the USA I view the gun threads from a distance but it is a shame how so many threads on here get directed onto this pointless argument time and again. Pointless as in, its the same lines and stats being being forward every time and not one person will ever change their view on this.

Personally I don't agree with your gun laws but I don't live there, nor am I a US citizen. I'm aware of those laws/rights and remember this from time to time when in the US.

Back on topic, it makes a nice change to see people remembering people in their community, this time two murdered police officers just doing their job, without feeling the need to riot and loot.
The police have a tough job and sometimes a choice between potentially losing their life, or being vilified/fired/put on trial purely because of the skin color of the guy committing the crime.

rgbrock1
22nd Dec 2014, 15:02
NYPD officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu, RIP.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/son-nypd-mourns-loss-dad-facebook-article-1.2052995#
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/son-nypd-mourns-loss-dad-facebook-article-1.2052995#

Bronx
22nd Dec 2014, 15:28
New York, Sunday -
Eric Garner's family pleads for calm after NYC tragedy


Gwen Carr, Garner's mother, said: "I’m standing here in sorrow about losing those two police officers.
Anyone who is standing with us, we want you to not use Eric Garner's name for violence because we are not about that.
These two police officers lost their lives senselessly.
Our condolences to the families — and we stand with the families."

Esaw Garner, Eric Garner's widow:"I just want to express my condolences and heartfelt sadness for these two officers and their families.
I know what they are going through to lose a loved one right before the holidays. It's so sad.
My husband was not a violent man, so we don't want any violence connected to his name."




RIP Eric Garner, Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu.
Let's hope some good comes out of these three senseless tragedies in NYC.

B.

West Coast
22nd Dec 2014, 16:05
FL

I too have asked Gertie about the obvious flaws in his or her argument about the reletive safety of Jamaica but have yet to receive an answer either. I guess we're left to draw out own conclusions using the publically available facts.

I'd likely pass on replying as well if called out with facts that don't support the conclusion.

pigboat
22nd Dec 2014, 16:19
How utterly pathetic.
And completely predictable.

Bronx
22nd Dec 2014, 16:42
Nigd3

being vilified/fired/put on trial purely because of the skin color of the guy committing the crime.

Or because of their own behavior.


B.

Nigd3
22nd Dec 2014, 18:14
Bronx

Although you chose to quote only part of the situation I suggested, are you saying that potentially lethal force is not justified even if a police officer genuinely believes his life is in danger?

In the MB case, as well as others, a lot of press and public figures had hung the policeman/security guard out to dry, before any form of trial.

The public outcry and media circus is different depending on the guys ethnicity. What happens the time a police officer hesitates using force, with recent events in the back of his mind and he ends up in the obituaries section of the paper, instead of the front page?

rgbrock1
22nd Dec 2014, 18:28
Nigd3:

your last question is a very good question: what happens?

Which is why I find it rather dismaying that the head of the NYPD, here in NY, has issued a standing order that patrol officers "are not to effect an arrest in the current environment, unless absolutely necessary." I hope this order doesn't come back and bite someone badly.

Bronx
22nd Dec 2014, 18:28
Nigd3are you saying that potentially lethal force is not justified even if a police officer genuinely believes his life is in danger?
I'll give you some time to think about what I said and if you still can't work it out I'll answer your question.

In the MB case, as well as others, a lot of press and public figures had hung the policeman/security guard out to dry, before any form of trial.
A trial in the MB case?
Or the Eric Garner case?
Guess I missed them.

The public outcry and media circus is different depending on the guys ethnicity.Maybe you think the old man's ethnicity caused the public outcry in the Texas taser arrest?

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2014, 18:53
I take it that's a 'No' then.
I'm likely to use irony and/or reductio ad absurdum differently for different audiences. Just like you, and just like anyone else. One size doesn't fit all. (Unless you're a Labour politician of course.)

Is that what you were asking? If not then I'm afraid I'm at a loss.

Nigd3
22nd Dec 2014, 18:53
Bronx

If you read what I wrote, including the part you ignored, where I said being in a situation where the officer can potentially lose their life you could see I was referring to a deadly situation. If you feel you can cherry pick my words for misinterpretation, then why shouldn't I? I know exactly what you meant and it was not relevant to what I was saying.
If you want to take on a policeman and try and grab his gun (for example) then suck up what happens to you.

Who said there had been a trial, I said they had been hung out to dry by a media and also a president before a trial.

The taser attack is still under investigation I believe. You have maybe found the police officer guilty already?

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2014, 18:57
I too have asked Gertie about the obvious flaws in his or her argument about the reletive safety of Jamaica but have yet to receive an answer either. I guess we're left to draw out own conclusions using the publically available facts.
It's feelings rather than facts.

When American police wave guns around, or even just stand there with their hands hovering over their holsters, I get worried about my safety. When some Jamaican police waved machine guns at us my biggest worry was that we might get fined for not having our ID on us (in fact they just waved us on; using the guns that were occupying their hands).

And when I'm on holiday it's no fun feeling frightened for one's safety, and the whole point of a holiday is to have fun, so I go places where that isn't an issue.

West Coast
22nd Dec 2014, 19:11
It's feelings rather than facts.

On that, we're 100% in agreement as the facts show you to be error.

Enjoy that placebo pill. Funny enough, I've grown up in the US, and in my youth was not quite the stellar citizen I am now. Never once had a cop pull a weapon on me, never saw a cop pull a weapon on someone else.

Flying Lawyer
22nd Dec 2014, 19:12
GertrudeI'm likely to use irony and/or reductio ad absurdum differently for different audiences.
After more than 10 hours since your first response, is that evasive answer the best you can manage?Is that what you were asking? If not then I'm afraid I'm at a loss.You know very well it's not what I was asking.
It's feelings rather than facts.
That doesn't surprise me.
It explains a great deal about your posts in various threads, particularly those concerning America and Americans.

wings folded
22nd Dec 2014, 19:47
Never once had a cop pull a weapon on me, never saw a cop pull a weapon on someone else. I have only been to the USA 135 times, and certainly do not live there.

I have had a federal officer pull a weapon on me once, and have seen a cop shoot somebody once.

What does that prove?

Nothing.

No more and no less than than your own personal statistic.

Bronx
22nd Dec 2014, 22:03
Nigd3I know exactly what you meant I knew you did.it was not relevant to what I was saying.It was relevant to what I wanted to say.
The taser attack is still under investigation I believe. You have maybe found the police officer guilty already?It's not for me to find him guilty but, unless something comes out in the investigation that completely changes the nature of what the cop can clearly be seen doing in the video (eg if the old man pulled a knife that can't be seen) then I'd like to see him fired, and prosecuted for one or more of official oppression, injury to elderly, aggravated assault and assault.

ExSp33db1rd
22nd Dec 2014, 22:21
Never once had a cop pull a weapon on me, never saw a cop pull a weapon on someone else.Was pulled over twixt Washingon and Baltimore one night ( no rear lights, long story not relevant) I got out and met two cops midway between the two cars, then my drunken Captain colleague, attempting to assist me, rolled out of the back seat and fell into the ditch. Within a micro second both cops had their guns trained on him, and one shouted - Get back into that car, bud, and we mean NOW. Fortunately he did.

It was then explained that no one is supposed to exit a stopped car, but I beat them to it, but they certainly weren't going to let two guys out, too many cops 'jumped' on that Freeway was their excuse.

Didn't even get a ticket, just told to give Avis a kick in the arse next morning for the state of their car electrics, the headlights worked, and of course you do always get out and check your tail lights every time you switch them on, don't you ?

( I got more stick from my co-pilot colleagues, who told me I should have let my Captain get killed - then we would all have moved one place up the seniority list awaiting promotion ! - for some I might have obliged, but he was a nice guy ! )

West Coast
22nd Dec 2014, 22:49
A bit of local knowledge would have served you well. It's curious how its the Brits who've had guns pulled on them. Hmmm.

I know not to run from London Cops, leads to blood loss. Perhaps you might want to study up before you visit.

parabellum
23rd Dec 2014, 02:00
Yes, I had heard of the problem in NSW and we have something similar here in rural Victoria. It appears some bad people have found access to the firearms register. The small gangs of, usually, three people are well armed and ruthless, forcing legitimate arms owners to open their gun safes, which the thieves then empty. It is of considerable concern to the authorities that such a large number of 'long arms', (rifles and shotguns), have been stolen and suggests an organisation may be arming itself for some kind of armed insurrection, all bets are off as to who those people might be.


Australia does still have hundreds of well run pistol clubs though and the weapons used by criminals are almost always smuggled in from the Far East.

Nigd3
23rd Dec 2014, 15:00
Bronx

With regards your last paragraph, I agree, the video does not look good for the officer but I also believe the devil is in the detail, which is not always immediately apparent.

If, as you say, nothing comes to light to mitigate the officers actions and the investigation confirms popular opinion, then he should be dealt with accordingly. Hopefully any investigation is transparent to the public.

Luckily we both live in countries where we are presumed innocent, until proven otherwise. The media, as well as the US president and other prominent public figures, should take note of this before flapping their gums and inflaming already bad situations even more.

bcgallacher
23rd Dec 2014, 17:07
Has it occurred to anyone that if the police officers concerned had not been armed MB and the 12 year old would probably still be alive

West Coast
23rd Dec 2014, 17:12
The policeman might not be alive if he didn't have a gun in the case of MB.

wings folded
23rd Dec 2014, 17:19
A bit of local knowledge would have served you well. It's curious how its the Brits who've had guns pulled on them. Hmmm.

I know not to run from London Cops, leads to blood loss. Perhaps you might want to study up before you visit.

What????

How do you get local knowledge without going there? A Federal Agent pulled his gun and threatened me with it because I stood on the paw of his stupid dog at the luggage retrievial carousel. At Boston Logan to be precise.

When an NYPD fellow shot somebody in my presence, was it because I was there? No, I suppose not. You have a weird logic.

parabellum
23rd Dec 2014, 20:18
Has it occurred to anyone that if the police officers concerned had not been armed MB and the 12 year old would probably still be alive Brown was known to the police and known to have access to arms. There is a far greater chance that the British police will eventually become armed than the American police will be disarmed, that, sadly, is the way the world is going.

con-pilot
23rd Dec 2014, 20:48
There is a far greater chance that the British police will eventually become armed than the American police will be disarmed, that, sadly, is the way the world is going.



If you've ever walked around the Grosvenor Square Marroitt as I have on many occasions, they already are.

fitliker
23rd Dec 2014, 21:23
The unarmed police used to be backed up by the Army.
When the gangsters of London got out of control in Dec 22 1909, the Army was called in by the Home Secretary Winston Churchill .The Army used their superior training and fire power to put the gangs in their place.
When the Red Clyde siders attempted to take over Council buildings in Glasgow ,the Government put tanks in George square to counter the unlawful attacks against the democratically elected city government.


When the police get out gunned or out numbered the Army is the best solution to protect innocent civilians.
That is why troops were sent to Belfast, to protect the people from extremists. Something the local heavily armed police could not do or would not do.
The National guard was called out in Ferguson, and when the New York Police get out numbered , the National guard will be called out to maintain peace and order and protect the innocent civilians from those who would attempt to kick start the second American civil war.

galaxy flyer
23rd Dec 2014, 21:45
How do you get local knowledge without going there? A Federal Agent pulled his gun and threatened me with it because I stood on the paw of his stupid dog at the luggage retrievial carousel. At Boston Logan to be precise.

He should have been reported, absolutely uncalled for.

There are some very specific laws in the US about using the military forces in a domestic setting.

GF

The Sultan
23rd Dec 2014, 22:15
Para,

I doubt the officer who shot Brown knew s***. With Brown's lack of history why would the police know he had access to guns?

Oh I know! The Baggers under direction from the NRA blocked any reasonable gun control after Gifford and Newtown so any mentally ill person (a significant % of their base, just look at Ted Nugent and Bundy supporters ) or terrorist (Bundy again) can get a gun in the US. That pretty well covers the assassin of the two NY officers. The fact he killed two police offers has the Baggers initially up in arms. It appears that this outrage has now been tempered once they realize the officers were not white.

In the Brown case I am on the fence. Had no opinion until the prosecutor admitted he tainted the Grand Jury with knowingly false anti-Brown testimony. Hopefully at least the prosecutor goes to trial. As to Gardner that was a denial of justice for at least negligent homicide. All the officers and paramedics in the video need to be on the street selling loosies to eat.

The Sultan

ExSp33db1rd
23rd Dec 2014, 22:18
I know not to run from London Cops, leads to blood loss. Perhaps you might want to study up before you visit.

Do London Cops routinely carry guns, ( they didn't last time I looked, despite con-pilot's comment about the Grosvenor Square Marriott - maybe Grosvenor Square is where the US Embassy is - don't know, or care ) or are you fearful of being bludgeoned to death by the famous "truncheon" ?

And of course you always read the various Road Codes and various legal requirements of each and every country you visit before renting a car, don't you ? Before deparure from the US of A, or on arrival at the relevant country ? I know ignorance of the law is no excuse, but it prevails much more than local knowledge. Simple fact of Life. But then of course you always get out and check your rear lights every time you drive at night, so you wouldn't have been stopped in my case anyway.

Mr Chips
23rd Dec 2014, 22:33
Do London Cops routinely carry guns,
Firearms are routinely carried on the streets of London, both by specialist officers in rapid response vehicles, the royal and diplomatic protection group officers and, more recently, openly at major transport hubs
( they didn't last time I looked, despite con-pilot's comment about the Grosvenor Square Marriott - maybe Grosvenor Square is where the US Embassy is - don't know, or care )
DPG officers at/around the embassies are armed (look out for red marked police cars
or are you fearful of being bludgeoned to death by the famous "truncheon" ?
The famous truncheon was phased out years ago, replaced by extendable batons - "Asps". Officers also carry CS spray (interesting fact - legally a firearm), quickcuffs (they really hurt when applied) and Tasers are available

rh200
23rd Dec 2014, 22:47
There is a far greater chance that the British police will eventually become armed than the American police will be disarmed, that, sadly, is the way the world is going.

Sadly a lot of our societies are just the same with a phase shift introduced. Thats why you see our police over here armed like they are. Its all a reaction to perceived risk.

The poms are trying the rapid response system, seems to work for them so far. Though I can imagine if one to many mister plods get killed where a firearm could help, union type pressure will force a cultural change.

con-pilot
23rd Dec 2014, 22:56
maybe Grosvenor Square is where the US Embassy is

Yes it is, for some reason (probably my good looks :p) I usually got the same corner room and I could see the Embassy from my room. Armed police are all over the place, carrying sidearms and some sort of sub-machine gun.

bcgallacher
24th Dec 2014, 10:54
British armed police are equipped with H&K carbines - semi auto only,none are full auto.

sitigeltfel
24th Dec 2014, 12:00
Here we go again.......

An 18-year-old black man was shot and killed by police at a petrol station late on Tuesday in a St Louis suburb near where unarmed teen Michael Brown was killed by a white officer in August, police and local media said.
Police said the man had pointed a handgun at an officer who approached him and another man at a gas station in the suburb of Berkeley.
"Fearing for his life, the Berkeley Officer fired several shots, striking the subject, fatally wounding him," St. Louis County Police Department spokesman Brian Schellman said in a statement. The second man fled the scene.
US police shoot dead black teenager near Ferguson - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11312109/US-police-shoot-dead-black-teenager-near-Ferguson.html)

The looted shops will have been re-stocked with large TVs and other attractive goods just in time for a bit of Christmas "shopping"! :rolleyes:

rgbrock1
24th Dec 2014, 13:41
Well they better hurry and stock up on Christmas gifts because there is only today as the last shoplifting day before Christmas. :}:E

Simplythebeast
24th Dec 2014, 14:09
Unbelievable that they are looting again in response to the latest killing.
Also the local Police Chief has been on the TV and stated that the deceased was in possession of a high powered 9mm pistol with five rounds in the chamber and one round in the magazine......doh!

Simplythebeast
24th Dec 2014, 14:12
No doubt locals will be preparing the list of items to be looted to order when the result of the inquest is announced.

rgbrock1
24th Dec 2014, 14:30
Unfortunately, the two police officers who were murdered in NYC last weekend is only a prelude. The kooks will now be coming out of from underneath their rocks and copy cat murders/assassinations of policemen and women will be in store. WTF? :mad:

I will say this though. Ever since the emperor ascended the throne in the White House, race relations in this country have taken many steps back.

rgbrock1
24th Dec 2014, 16:10
A local NYC media outlet seems to have acquired, from where they don't say, a cell phone image of the moment of last weekends assassination of the two NYPD officers. Chilling.

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/threat_on_cops_103661597-e1419401943550.jpg

rgbrock1
24th Dec 2014, 17:04
Boudreaux Bob wrote:

Anyone care to bet we hear nothing about this from Obama and Holder or Sharpton and Jackson? Will the Congressional Black Caucus, NAACP, ACLU or any of the other Groups that fueled the emotions of the Black Community going to speak out against this kind of action?

The silence from the Ghetto Commanders is deafening. Bob, you were correct.

rgbrock1
24th Dec 2014, 17:07
re: the photo of the "assassination" I posted above.

I no longer believe the photo is real. Looking at the police car I realized it's a late-model car and not something the NYPD use anymore. Ditto the cars in line as they too are late-model. This may be a photo of a police murder several years ago that happened in the city.

con-pilot
24th Dec 2014, 17:34
Yes, I do believe it to be a fake. Even the area does not look correct.

Just someone wanting to claim their 15 seconds of internet fame.

TWT
24th Dec 2014, 18:00
The car in which the 2 officers were gunned down was a Ford Fusion.The car in the picture above is a Crown Victoria.

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2014/12/21/1227163/385880-0b7b6e0a-88a1-11e4-bec7-01128b09a77b.jpg

Also,the NY Times reports that the perp fired from the passenger side of the vehicle and that the cops said that he used the same silver (not black) semi auto gun to commit suicide:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/21/nyregion/two-police-officers-shot-in-their-patrol-car-in-brooklyn.html
mmmmmmm
mmmmmm
mmmmmmm
mmmmmmm

rh200
25th Dec 2014, 07:46
Well with fruit loops like this around, no wonder these things happen.

CUNY newspaper editor Gordon Barnes calls for violent protests for deaths of Eric Garner and Michael Brown (http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/cuny-newspaper-editor-gordon-barnes-calls-for-violent-war-to-be-waged-on-police/story-fnh81jut-1227166283150)

I mean, what is the fruit loops end game, does he have a Utopian plan on how he thinks it would work and what the outcome would be.:ugh:

Bronx
25th Dec 2014, 09:26
The student newspaper added a disclaimer at the end of the piece, saying the views are Barnes’ only.


CUNY Grad Centre President Chase F. Robinson condemned the editorial:

“While freedom of speech must be protected, and the views expressed by the editor in chief of this student newspaper are stated as sole views, we deplore calls of any kind for violence.
As Martin Luther King’s birthday approaches, we should instead recommit ourselves to nonviolence as the true path to social justice.”

TWT
27th Dec 2014, 23:11
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/nyregion/funeral-for-slain-nypd-officer-rafael-ramos.html?_r=0

A well written article.20,000 police officers in attendance,from across the USA and the world.

sitigeltfel
28th Dec 2014, 05:19
While the NYPD may have a legitimate grievance with Mayor de Blasio, the funeral was not the time to air it.

Stand easy, Officer Ramos.

rgbrock1
29th Dec 2014, 12:15
I watched the live broadcast on the local news Saturday morning. Although much of it was a dog and pony show, so to speak, the actual service itself was heart-wrenching, especially to witness the reactions of his two sons and widow.

And although the NYPD has stepped up to the plate and will pay the entire mortgages of both murdered officers' families, and the NY Yankees baseball team will be paying the entire educations of both sons, there will always be a hole in those families hearts which will never again fill.

RIP Detective First Class Ramos and Detective First Class Liu.

rh200
30th Dec 2014, 03:51
I don't blame the officers for doing it at the funeral, its a war out there and they are on the loosing end.

How about the media take some responsibility, and our leaders show some leader ship for them and not the crims.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25875576/autopsy-shows-us-police-shot-black-man-in-back/
BBC News - Ezell Ford shot in back by LA police - coroner (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30626381)Ezell Ford shot in back by LA police - coroner

How about saying that "Autopsies corroborates police report and officers statements":ugh: