How to be 100% sure a flight is operating.

[Cymmon]

I've just booked through Expedia on a China Southern Airlines codeshare from Guangzhou to Paris CDG operated by Air France. China Southern have said the flight will not operate due to operational reasons but Air France are still happily selling seats on the same flight.

Air France refuse to give me any information on the flight as I booked through Expedia, Exoedia are still taking bookings and China Southern are, well silent.

Would this be a €600 refund due to EU261? Refused boarding. I would donate the money to a charity if refunded, but it's strange to get differing answers from each e-mail.

[ExXB]

Et, can you give us the flight number and date?

The only 100% guarantee that your flight will be operated is when it lands at the destination airport.

[Cymmon]

Yes, China Southern Airlines 783, a codeshare with Air France. 3rd January 2015 @ 2320.

[jackieofalltrades]

Phone Air France and ask to make a booking on the exact same flight. Don't give them your original booking details. If they offer to sell you a seat, then it's likely the flight will operate. If they don't, they will say there's no flights that day, or it's full. Either way you'll have an idea if your flight will go. (Obviously you don't need to actually make the second booking, just enquire to make one.)

[Hotel Tango]

Went on the CZ site and they are still selling that flight on that day but only in Economy. All other classes show no availability. If AF show availability in other classes it could be that CZ's quota (if their code-share is subject to quotas) is taken up. From what I can see, the flight is still operating as planned.

[Cymmon]

I booked the flight over a month ago, is that denied boarding? I was only informed 4 days ago.

[Hotel Tango]

Unfortunately "operational reasons" is a pretty standard generic term used in order to save going into detail, i.e. the truth! Did they offer you an alternative flight? If yes, you have the choice of accepting it or obtaining a full refund. No additional compensation is applicable.

[Cymmon]

They have but its a different aircraft, different times etc. will never fly them again. Don't want that uncertainty that they gave me. Will stick with Qatar Airways in future.....

[ExXB]

A denied boarding occurs when the flight operates, but not with all passengers that have a confirmed reservation. If the flight does not operate, it is a cancellation.

Compensation MAY be payable under Regulation 261, in both cases but it is not automatic. If your booking is with CZ the regulation does not apply on flights to the EU regardless of whose metal is operated. Their own policies may provide for something, but don't hold your breath.

[Cymmon]

Thank you for all your replies, I've now been told ive been re-routed via Amsterdam to Manchester, I arrive 45 mins later than the original schedule.

My only worry is if they claim your flight has been cancelled at such short notice you would have basically no chance of rebooking if the only offer was a refund..

Once again, thank you.

[Hotel Tango]

It would be interesting to know if the flight is cancelled on the day, or if they just wanted your seat, and a few others too I imagine. Keep an eye out on the day to see if the original flight operates or not.

[Cymmon]

The flight is definitely scheduled to operate by Air France, they have confirmed this.

[Cymmon]

I will be in Guangzhou airport to take photos to prove the flight operated.

[ExXB]

... Just remember the EU regulation does not apply to China Southern's flights to the EU. i.e. If the flight number you are booked on begins with CZ they are the airline you have your contract with, even if the flight is operated by Air France.

The difference between a 'marketing airline' and an 'operating airline' is very important.

However even if you were booked on AF it is irrelevant if the flight operates as scheduled you are not being 'denied boarding'. Your reservation has now be changed, with your agreement, for the routing via AMS.

[Cymmon]

Yes, I understand that, shame that they can do this under codeshare rules as the charity would be very happy with €600.

But again thanks.

[Hotel Tango]

ExXB, quite true, but I'm intrigued that when I went through the booking process with CZ, after Cymmon received the notification that the flight would not operate, they still accepted bookings for that exact flight. So what's going on exactly?

[peekay4]

Well I have a totally wild speculation. :)

Codeshare agreements can be very complex. For this route, I believe the codeshare agreement between AF and CZ is a balanced "hard block" agreement.

In this type of agreement, each airline gets a "hard" (guaranteed) allocation of seats in the other airline's aircraft. AF gets seats in CZ, and CZ gets seats in AF.

These seats cannot be "released back" to the operating airline. So, it's up to the marketing airline to fill up their allocation of seats. Unsold seats are lost revenue.

In a "balanced" agreement, often there is little or no financial exchange between the two airlines, since the amount of money they would owe each other is expected to be the same.

"Balanced" doesn't mean the same number of seats. An AF business seat might be worth (say) 1.5x CZ business seat. So CZ might get 8 seats in AF planes, while AF gets 12 seats in CZ planes.

Over time, these underlying value assumptions will change, and the economics get "out of whack". A rebalancing needs to happen. This may result in lost inventory. For example, AF seats might now be worth 2x CZ seats: so CZ now only gets 6 seats for the 12 it gives to AF.

This may also mean that some tickets sold prior to the rebalancing may no longer make economic sense.

That is, the marketing airline would lose money on those tickets, especially if they were sold at discounted fares. In this case, the marketing airline may cancel the affected fares and rebook them on other (less expensive) flights.

E.g., they might honor all the "Y" full-fare coach tickets, but cancel all the "K" discounted-fare tickets and rebook them on non-direct flights, or flights on the airline's own metal (not codeshare), or flights on more economical codeshares, etc.

The marketing airline can continue to sell seats on the plane, but at a higher price or at a different fare basis, to reflect the new economics.

Not saying this is what happened, but, just an example of a scenario that could happen.

[Cymmon]

Ok, a quick update.

I'm now in Manila airport, my ticket with "confirmed" for the flight Guangzhou to Amsterdam were not valid, so now I am , maybe , on the Cancelled Air France flight to Paris.

My bags can only be checked through to Paris, so with a 1 HR 40 transfer in Paris, not looking good for the booked (or not booked) flight to Manchester.

Then who will pay to buy new tickets for the train travel from Manchester? I allowed a 3 hour window.

What is happening to air travel?

I also have to hope someone is at the Guangzhou airport transfer desk as I only have boarding card to that destination, not to Paris......

[ExXB]

Keep all your receipts and keep a diary of what is happening, including names if you can. Make a claim as soon as you can and set out your costs, but more importantly what you want them to do to make it right. Be specific, vague hints do not work. If they balk contact the UK's National Dnforcement Body (see EU's air transport website) and ask for their assistance.

At Paris head to a transfer desk before you go land side, they might be able to pull your bag for your connecting flight (have your baggage check and connecting flight details to hand)- You might be able to stay airside and take the connecting flight.

[Cymmon]

Ok, thank you for the advice.

Too late for here in Manila, but had to go to a supervisors desk as my flights "weren't confimed" even though it said Confirmed on the tickets, then they had to make many phone calls to get me on the "cancelled" Air France flight.

[Hotel Tango]

Cymmon, I'm sure many people may think otherwise, but your experience is not that uncommon when booking through third parties. That's why I make it a personal policy to always book directly with the airline. I hope it all works out OK for you.

[Cymmon]

Ok, so arrived in Paris on the "cancelled" flight, gave to now go to gate to get seat allocation for my onward trip to Manchester.

How can the airlines get away with this? Had to check at all stops to ensure baggage coming with me. Took 40 minutes at Guangzhou to get me on the Air France flight.

[PAXboy]

Sorry to be a wet blanket Cymmon but I'm not sure it's entirely the airlines fault - not that I'm excusing them. Here's one of my lists (I dare say folks are bored with them) of possible factors:


Folks want to pay less money
Web companies offer airlines more paths to their customers
For the airline it's cheaper to have pax 'fed' to them on a network they do not have to pay very much for
Each company along the way needs to make their cut (= understandable)
Each company has their set of Ts&Cs (= understanable)

So far so good but now ...

The airline has been used to dealing with it's own agents, website and travel agents and now their computer systems have to have all this extra access and that costs money.
Never understimate the ability of companies (from tiniest to massive) to miss-manage their business ... :ugh:
Add the pressure to save/make money.
Flight schedules are being constantly tweaked, changing which aircraft type operates which sector or whether a sector is operated that day - or ever again.
Outsourcing of agents, check-in, baggage, computer systems, etcetera, etcetera.
Pax bookings grow more complicated as folks learn the remarkable websites and routings now available.

I agree with Hotel Tango and usually book direct BUT I've booked online with with major carriers, had confirmation to my email, checked in with my email and got to the bag drop to find the time of departure is changed! "Did you check your email?" the agent asks sweetly ... :hmm:

The airline business used to be a tighly run organisation now, like 90% of organisations - they are not!! They all pretend they are - but the're sliced and diced and are no longer cohesive. Just like British Govts (of both parties) because they have decided to run govt like a modern business and we all know that modern business does not run very well. :{



Did I mention that folks want to pay less money? (not necessarily you Cymmon)


OK, that's my Sunday afternoon rant from the sofa, I'll go and put the kettle on ...

[Cymmon]

My gripe as the day wore on was that Skyteam members China Southern and Air France can't even access each other's sites.....seems strange way of working when you are a team.
Unfortunately this was my only way as the trip was short notice.

Thanks again for all the replies. I will now contact Expedia to see what they say, and let them know that this can happen.

Just seen flights in Qatar airways in July, £1900 rtn business, but £1708 business with a third party on the same flight, you all know I'm choosing direct with Qatar! :-)