A/C down on M11.... (Merged) Link to AAIB Report

[justforfun]

Just spotted on web of an a/c down on M11, reportedly out of Duxford... any more info ??

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Motorway reopened after jet crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2021000/2021961.stm)

[Gen. Bombdabastards]

Just read this on net:

One killed as jet crashes on M-way
3:50pm Sunday, 02rd June 2002

One person has been killed when an aircraft slid on to a motorway after its brakes failed on landing.

The privately-owned L39 jet failed to stop on the runway at Duxford and careered on to the normally busy M11 motorway, Cambridgeshire police say.

Amazingly the jet did not hit any cars before coming to a stop.

Cambridgeshire Ambulance Service says one person was killed.

The motorway was closed in both directions.

The plane, which was not part of a flying a display, came to rest lying across both carriageways, a police spokeswoman added.

A far as a spokeswoman for Cambridgeshire ambulance is aware there were no other passengers in the plane.

A spokeswoman for Duxford Airfield says no members of the public had been involved in the incident.

The airfield is at the site of the Imperial War Museum at Duxford.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch is investigating the accident.




:(

[Jackonicko]

The L-39 came to rest on the M11 with one main landing gear unit apparently collapsed, and with minor damage to the leading edge and one wingtip. It looks more Cat 3 or Cat 4 than Cat 5.

The pilot ejected on the runway, but was killed, while the passenger in the back seat stayed put and walked away virtually unscathed! The TV news has it that they suffered brake failure on landing.

Doesn't the L-39 have zero-zero seats?

While sympathising sincerely with the pilot's friends and family, one can only hope that there is not an over-reaction to this tragic accident.

[Mister Watson]

My condolences to the family and friends of the deceased.

The Ejector seats work at 90kts. If the a/c was on a training sortie the Captain would have been sitting in the rear seat.

Fortunately there wasn't traffic (or worse a traffic jam) on the M11.

[Jackonicko]

Sorry, just repeating the TV news report re the status of the back-seater. (Always dangerous to believe anything....)

But my understanding is that the Czech seats in the L39 were supposed to be zero-zero not zero-ninety, unless you KNOW different.

The L-39 that went down was G-BZVL (formerly ES-YLB) and was owned by:

ROCKET SEAT LTD
THE SANCTUARY
HORNS CROSS, NORTHIAM
RYE
TN31 6JH

An unfortunate company name in the circumstances........

[Reheat On]

If Duxford is to remain active in this way would it not make a tad of sense to put a barrier up at the M11 end - this could so easily have been an oh-my-gawd, all for want of some simple safety aid. Don't suppose common sense will prevail, and the RAF go an install one for them..... as a sort of debt for keeping the TSR2 etc

Commiserations to the pilots family for a sad weekend.

[TyroPicard]

Anyone know who the GIB was? A "former senior RAF officer?"

[swashplate]

1. According to BBC 'Ceefax', the guy in the front who died on ejection was Mr Gary Clark, from Potters Bar, Herts. He was the Aircraft's co-owner. No word on the GIB, though.

2. According to Mr Maxi Gainza's article 'Slovak Fighter School' in the March 1994 'Pilot' mag, the L-39 Albatross is equipped with a Czech built VS-1-BRI ejection seat. He says this seat works at zero height, but only at speeds above 150kph.

150 kilometres/hour = 150 x 1000 = 150,000 metres/hour

To convert metres to feet, x by 3.281

So, 150,000 x 3.281 = 492150 feet

Knots = nautical miles (6080 feet) per hour

Therefore 492150/6080 = 80kts

Could someone please check this, think its right..... :rolleyes:

.....Presume that it must be an old fashioned 'cannonball' seat, without rocket assist?

[Mister Watson]

The GIB was Andy Gent

[RotaDish]

Jackonicko,

L39 Seat.........Zero / 90 Kts. Basically the same as the JP Seat.

Rota

[RotaDish]

Interesting point by another poster (Reheat). If Mil Fast Jets are being operated from Duxford, and bearing in mind it's proximity to a major motorway, it should have a barrier. After all, there's plenty spare: Chivenor's, Brawdy's, Wattisham's...etc etc

Tragically sad for the front seater, but could have been so much worse. Hopefully we'll see what a lucky escape this was, and fit a barrier asap.

Oh, sorry, that would mean learning from mistakes...silly me!

Rota

[Min Decent Ht]

I've flown a Hawk into Duxford several times and its pretty tight, especially the motorway end. With frequent FJs movements there a barrier would be essential.
Condolences. :( : tragic.
The BBC interviewed the co-owner as the L39 was being lifted off the motorway. He was asked if the cause was an aircraft problem. He replied that it coundn't have been an aircraft fault because it had been maintained so well.
The wreckage was still warm and he was implying aircrew error;
inconsiderate, tactless, pompous arXe.
:rolleyes:

[STANDTO]

isn't this the second L39 incident in recent memory?

[spekesoftly]

Perhaps you are thinking of the L29 (Delfin) accident at Eastbourne in August 2000?

[Mister Watson]

Min Decent Ht,

I agree re: the co-owners comments after the crash.

A little bird told me that when the brakes failed the pilot (in the rear seat) tried to retract the undercarriage to slow the a/c. Although he couldn't because the u/c lever was wire locked (apparently).

What was that about good maintenance?

[lightningmate]

It is not unusual for 'emergency' controls to be wire locked in order to provide a broken 'tell-tale' indicator when they have been operated.

However, the wire used for such purposes is a particular type that can be easily broken. I believe there have been occasions when incorrect and much stronger wire was found in situ.

lm

[Jackonicko]

In days gone by the Duxford runway was always regarded by my flying club as being just a little tight for first solo X-countries for PPLs. Surprising perhaps, to choose to use it for conversion training for the aircraft owner, or am I way out of line and way off base?

[2greens]

I might have this wrong but isn't "wiring" of various controls in the rear of the L-39 a requirement of the CAA for granting a UK CoA?

[jimgriff]

Seats in the jet are zero / 90kts capable. It appears that the a/c was only doing approx 20kts when the passenger banged out. They are good ....but not that good.

[jimgriff]

Here is the mfr info to stop the rumours:

http://www.l39.com/download/Envelope.pdf

[steamchicken]

"A major national newspaper" which I won't name, but generally known as The Guardian, reported correctly the crash of an L39 with a picture, but also ran a News in Brief saying that "an RAF Hawk jet" had ended up on the M11 at Duxford.

[Alty Meter]

Link to AAIB Report (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_022817.hcsp)

[BEagle]

AAIB reports merely state what the best evidence available indicates was the sequence of events during an accident/incident. Unlike other 'investigations' (see the long running Chinook thread), they do not apportion blame and as a consequence are very highly regarded.

[Jackonicko]

Can't help but think that if the stude hadn't tried to eject we'd be viewing this accident in an entirely different light. Retracting the gear might have stopped the aircraft from going onto the M11, but not into the earth bank.

The Captain did a good job in saving himself, though.

Two questions:

Is Duxford suitable for this kind of training, with its fore-shortened runway?
Wouldn't it be sensible for an aerodrome used by these types of aircraft to have a barrier?

[andrewc]

The whole crash sequence probably took no more than
25 seconds from start to finish...

From the AAIB report the student made a fatal error in
ejecting outside the envelope of his seat - he took the
decision in the heat of the moment...and if the aircraft
had burned and his ejector seat had gone off more
vertically he would have been right.

The instructor might have been able to mitigate some
of the crash effects by emergency braking but who can say
whether that would have stopped the aircraft going into
the bank and down onto the motorway.

Both guys were pilots far more experienced than myself...

-- Andrew

[Flying Lawyer]

Jacko
Can't help but think that if the stude hadn't tried to eject we'd be viewing this accident in an entirely different light.
It certainly would have been less tragic, but the aircraft still ended up on the M11!

Is Duxford suitable for this kind of training, with its fore-shortened runway?
Fast jets are based there and visit for shows, and training takes place, all without incident until this. The aircraft was only doing 20 kts when it left the airfield boundary. No attempt was made to use to the emergency brakes. "The correct procedure following the loss of normal braking is to use the emergency brakes and this emergency procedure is clearly stated in the Flight Manual. The instructor pilot did not use the emergency brake lever nor did he instruct the student pilot to do so.
Instead he applied right rudder to deliberately steer the aircraft off the paved surface towards open ground. When the aircraft was running across the adjacent field, towards the M11, the instructor asked the student to raise the landing gear.
In these actions it appears that the instructor may have reverted to the procedures required when flying the Hawk aircraft, which were more deeply ingrained in him than the L-39 procedures." Wouldn't it be sensible for an aerodrome used by these types of aircraft to have a barrier?
I'm not qualified to comment on this - but see above quote. And also "the aircraft entered the M11 at a position 169 metres to the right of the runway centre line and thus avoided the embankment entirely."

andrewc
The instructor might have been able to mitigate some of the crash effects by emergency braking but who can say whether that would have stopped the aircraft going into the bank and down onto the motorway.
The excerpts from the report quoted above answer your point.

I see nothing at all unfair in those findings/comments.

FL

[gasax]

It is not correct to say that the AAIB was particularly critical.

It described the instructors actions and then contrasted them against those needed in the type of aircraft he was instructing in, (not the type he had most experience in).

Not using the emergency braking system and trying to retract the undercarriage when it is interlocked so this cannot happen would suggest a few short-comings.

I don't know any of the people involved and have no axe to grind. But if I'm being instructed I expect the instructor to know the aircrafts systems. I expect to be taught them and my knowledge tested. None of that is dwelt on particularly in the report but it is these aspects of complex aircraft that usually cause accidents.

Yes we all screw up and the AAIB put it all together and publish. That is the process and it is dificult to see how that can be judged to be unfair.

The more interesting question might be whether the CAA do anything about it? That might then be judged to be fair or unfair.

[NigelOnDraft]

I am ex RAF FJ, read the report, and wondering who it was performed a number of Internet searches. Nothing on who the instructor was - indeed lots of reports confirming his name was not in the public domain (... "the unnamed instructor..."). It might have been common knowledge in your circle - but you have now spread it far wider.... I could have found out no doubt with a few phone calls, but would not have passed that on. Indeed, now you have "outed" him, I have typed his name, with "Duxford" into Google - no matches... Maybe you, and the others confirming his name, might like to remove it?

At the end of the day, the aircraft had an emergency braking system, the main system failed, and the emergency system was not used. The aircraft then ended up on a major motorway, and endangered life. It also led to the student to perceive himself in sufficient danger to eject outside the envelope.

I am making no judgement on what happened - I know little about the accident other than what the report says. But if it had been me, I doubt I would have expected much else from the AAIB!

NoD

Edit: Moderator - maybe you could consider removing the individuals' names from the posts above...

[Heliport]

Nigel

The instructor's name, and the student's name, were both widely reported at the time of the accident.
The FI's name was first posted on PPRuNe by 'Mister Watson' - 13 months ago.

Comments and speculation before an official investigation are always understandably controversial but the Report has now been published and, although names never appear in AAIB reports, they are still matters of public record.


Heliport

[NigelOnDraft]

Heliport...

<<The instructor's name, and the student's name, were both widely reported at the time of the accident>>
I cannot say whether or not this is true. However, what I can say is that the instructors name (unlike the students name) does not currently appear to be in the public domain. I can offer the following web references to back up my point:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/cambridgeshire/3056285.stm
5 weeks after the accident - student named, not instructor...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/2021961.stm
Day after accident - student named, not instructor...
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/06/03/story53006.asp
Names student:
<<The other unnamed man on board the plane walked free from the scene with minor injuries.>>

I do not know whether you can provide any references backing up your assertion the name was widely spread? I do not know the pPrune "rules" on this, and am not too worried. What I can say was that the naming of him here was the first I had heard of the name. I leave it to the posters and/or pPrune to decide if it is necessary to further spread the name. After all, if the name is so well known, why quote it?

I don't want to make a big deal of it - its not my name. However, has anyone checked with the individual concerned if he minds??

Just a thought - thanks for the prompt reply...

NoD

PS I only asked a mod to "consider" removing the name in case it infringed any pPrune rules / etiquette. I was really asking the poster(s) themselves to do so...

[Flying Lawyer]

The legal action brought by the widow of the pilot doing conversion training (on behalf of herself and their children) was due to be heard in the High Court this week.
After some days of negotiation, the parties settled yesterday at an agreed sum of £431,500 including costs. (Considerably less than the amount claimed.)
The action was discontinued by agreement with no admission of liability. The aircraft owners/insurers provided the bulk of that sum, with Gent to pay £20,000 personally.


FL

[Heliport]

BBC News: Report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/6386381.stm)

[airborne_artist]

A pity a few had to exchange playground taunts on a thread that was initiated by the death of my good friend of twenty years.

It's oddly appropriate that it's on the Mil forum, as Gary served for 15 years with me (and with far more distinction) in the regt known by many as the Artists' Rifles.

Gary's family were in the scrap business, and I don't think that Gary had much in the way of formal educational qualifications, but he had a brain that never stopped. He had an early BBC micro, and when faced with the challenge of becoming a regtl signaller and having to learn Morse, he wrote a program to speed his progress.

He had the perfect delta physique, which he never lost, despite the amount of time that he spent building his last business. He still found enough time to give a huge amount back to the Regt, and made Staff Sgt, with ease. He could well have become a WO2 if he'd had the time. His time was increasingly taken up with the creation of a business that he conceived, having discovered a real gap in the market. He exploited that gap with massive success, and from that success he was able to afford to get his PPL and aim for a greater challenge than Mr Piper could offer.

His wake was superb - held in a stunning Knightsbridge hotel, where we drank champagne until 0late00.