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rgbrock1
17th Dec 2014, 15:36
Most, if not all, media outlets are reporting full diplomatic relations will be re-established between the U.S. and Cuba.

Both O'Bummer and Raul Castro are scheduled for a news conference, within their respective countries, at noon.

Boudreaux Bob
17th Dec 2014, 15:43
About time!

When the Cubans realize what they have been missing all these Years there shall be a very quick removal of the Communists!

Being a cruising Sailor the return to normal relations shall open up some very nice places to retire to on a Boat!

bcgallacher
17th Dec 2014, 15:48
Be careful what you wish for - one of the better things the Castro regime did was to prevent drug smuggling into the USA - he even executed one of his generals for being involved.Its only 90 miles across the straits and it could become a drug smugglers paradise.

ExXB
17th Dec 2014, 16:37
No doubt we will learn that this is really a bad thing because it's being done by a Black President. I've never understood this philosophy of rejecting anything the President does.

er340790
17th Dec 2014, 16:47
Long overdue. And the US citizen "travel-ban" already was a mockery anyway...

Thousands of US Citizens pop over CDN border in this part of the world and fly on the Winter Charters direct to Havana.

Cuban Immigration inserts a piece of paper into their US passports bearing the arrival stamp. When they fly back to CDA, the piece of paper is simply removed and binned.

The Yanks then re-cross the border from "their holiday in Canada" sporting remarkable suntans, sweating rum and smelling of fine cigars. No one asks and no one tells.

I think they call it REAL-POLITIK. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

er340790
17th Dec 2014, 16:51
Its only 90 miles across the straits and it could become a drug smugglers paradise.

Why bother when you have MEXICO attached????????? :}

(Saves on the cost of the boat!)

Boudreaux Bob
17th Dec 2014, 16:53
The Cubans have a long history of cooperating with Organized Crime and i am sure current members of the Cuban Government are not immune to capitalizing on opportunities to profit from such entrepreneurial opportunities.

baggersup
17th Dec 2014, 17:04
Diplomatic Relations Translation:

Opening doors completely to another massive influx of Latino future voters who will now arrive en masse like a swarm.

The Demographic/Democrat w*t dream continues.

Cuba is a geographic and trading non-entity to the U.S. There is no reason whatsoever for the administration to spend so much time on this one small island other than to further their demographic goals to open more doors to Latino populations for their own purposes. Nothing else makes sense.

arem
17th Dec 2014, 17:18
Isn't it called something like gerrymandering - just like the labour party did with immigration when they were last in government!!!

ExXB
17th Dec 2014, 17:19
Bob,
Are you referring to the Batista regime? Then you would be right. There is a long history of pre-Castro organised crime.

In the 21 St century the biggest crimes in Cuba are being committed at Guantanamo Bay and not by organised crime !

Boudreaux Bob
17th Dec 2014, 17:22
E,

Last time I checked not one person held at Gitmo has been stood in front of an open trench and shot by Firing Squad.

I submit Murder, Summary Execution, is far greater a Crime than anything done at Gitmo.

http://cubaarchive.org/home/images/stories/exit_attempts.pdf

SpringHeeledJack
17th Dec 2014, 17:30
Perhaps it's another chess move by the US to remove or diminish the foothold that Russia has with the Cubans ?

As much as it might be good for the Cubans, somehow I suspect that aspects of modern life that have been missing will turn out to be acidic to the present societal culture. I've always found it puzzling as to why the US has been so prejudicial towards the Cubans for so long ?


SHJ

Mechta
17th Dec 2014, 17:40
In the 21 St century the biggest crimes in Cuba are being committed at Guantanamo Bay and not by organised crime !

ExxB, If what is going on in Guantanamo Bay is a crime, then the people running it must be criminals, so are you suggesting that the people who run the place are disorganised?

con-pilot
17th Dec 2014, 18:00
It is about time, to be honest it is way past time. By keeping Cuba isolated, the US has managed to help keep the Castro brothers in power.

Good news. :ok:

Not too sure how the Cubans in exile in Florida are going to take this, but I guess that Obama and the DNC have decided that they don’t need the Cuban vote anymore.

Boudreaux Bob
17th Dec 2014, 18:02
Most of the Cuban vote in South Florida is safely Republican anyway so no loss to the Democrats.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
17th Dec 2014, 18:19
Pleased to see we helped
Barack Obama thanks Canada for hosting Cuba-U.S. meetings - Politics - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/barack-obama-thanks-canada-for-hosting-cuba-u-s-meetings-1.2876173)
Cuban President Raul Castro recognized the support of the Canadian government "for helping realize the high-level dialogue between the two countries."

rgbrock1
17th Dec 2014, 18:21
Fox3:

One other thing y'all in O' Canada could have done to help? Kept Obama there. Forever. Send him to the Yukon or something. Wherever he'd freeze his balls off for the rest of his life.

SMT Member
17th Dec 2014, 18:24
Can we have a verdict, please.

Is it this
Opening doors completely to another massive influx of Latino future voters who will now arrive en masse like a swarm.

Or this
Most of the Cuban vote in South Florida is safely Republican anyway so no loss to the Democrats.

The second opinion rings quite a few true sounding bells sounding, the former smells mainly of something emanating from Rush Limbaugh's ill-smelling orifice.

chuks
17th Dec 2014, 18:25
Oh Gawd! I can hardly wait! Beijing this year, Havana next year!

Wanna bet I can find a few things to laugh at, viewing the ruins of Cuban Communism?

It seems like yesterday, standing there on the famous Nevsky Prospekt, watching grannies dressed in rags sweeping slush with brooms made of twigs as overloaded, heeling trolley buses went groaning past, crammed with unhappy looking Russians. I was watching the show and thinking to myself about Nikita Khrushchev's vain boast of "We will bury you!"

"So, Nikita ... things don't seem to have worked out quite as 5-year planned. Tsk, tsk .... "

Hasta la victoria siempre, eh? Bring it on, this "victory" you want to show me! If I'm lucky we will arrive on Chicken Day. If we miss that, well, I guess we can go shopping for lettuce.

I will be sure to take the camera and catch a few shots to send to Dushan.

con-pilot
17th Dec 2014, 18:38
Most of the Cuban vote in South Florida is safely Republican anyway so no loss to the Democrats.

Upon reflection, you are quite correct.

I have to say that the one thing I hoped for when President Obama was elected, that he would normalize or at least open up relations with Cuba.

So now that he has done that, he can leave office. :p

Now it looks like I can go back to Cuba as just a regular civilian*. I'll be looking forward to doing just that. :ok:



* And bring back some nice Cuban cigars and Cuban rum. Probably not bring back any Cuban lettuce. Though as tempting as that may be. ;)

Boudreaux Bob
17th Dec 2014, 18:42
The Cuban Exile Vote is quite safe. The coming influx of Emigres, considering their socialist upbringing shall probably just trade the homegrown brand of socialism for the Gringo kind proffered by the Democrats.

rgbrock1
17th Dec 2014, 18:46
What I sincerely hope we do NOT see more of are these:

http://www.impactlab.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/hispanic_gangs.jpg

Lock and load, one 30 round magazine. Gentlemen, fire at will.

Lonewolf_50
17th Dec 2014, 20:04
The result will be a mixed bag of good and ill.
I look for the Puerto Rican tourist industry to be negatively impacted by this, as some new venues for tourism will open in competition with PR.

Sorry, San Juan, but I think that's how it's going to play. :bored:

con-pilot
17th Dec 2014, 20:23
Sorry, San Juan, but I think that's how it's going to play.

Well that's not going to break my heart. I strongly dislike the place. It was one of the very few places we RONed at where we were told at night to only go out in groups and to carry our weapons.

Nope, don't like the place.

Lonewolf_50
17th Dec 2014, 20:25
I had a few port visits there.
Some nights, it was OK.
Other nights, a bunch of my sailors ended up in a pickle.
The Black Angus figured in one such evening.
As of 2008, it was still open (http://forum.virtualtourist.com/Puerto_Rico-2375-2-3410111/Old-San-Juan.html).

rh200
17th Dec 2014, 20:28
The Cuban Exile Vote is quite safe. The coming influx of Emigres, considering their socialist upbringing shall probably just trade the homegrown brand of socialism for the Gringo kind proffered by the Democrats.

You got in before me:p

Personally I don't care, its a trivial nothing spot, that doesn't have the Soviet foothold. Socialism/ Communism is not what it was (whats left of it really needs euthanasia).

Obama isn't having a very successful presidency, what with completely destabilizing the middle east, possibly being that weak and getting us back on a path of cold war, he needs a few runs on the board.

Though I'm wondering if the release of hostage/prisoner and the deal can be regarded as paying a ransom:p

obgraham
17th Dec 2014, 21:54
Well as a proud member of the RWS here, I support Obama's changes regarding Cuba.

What we did before didn't work. Time for something new. I doubt January 2016 will see Raul sitting in the same chair.

Ethel the Aardvark
17th Dec 2014, 22:06
Great photo RGbrock.
It's obvious which one is Con and Mr Boudereoux but I couldn't work out which one was you. :O

broadreach
17th Dec 2014, 22:17
Very good news and about time. At the very least it will unsettle the bolivarians, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador and, to some extent, Argentina and Brazil. Somehow, I don't think mass migration will be a problem; the US already have mechanisms in hand for that.

galaxy flyer
17th Dec 2014, 22:31
broad reach,

As I was told at LABACE,

Brazil is becoming Argentina,
Argentina is becoming Venezuela,
Venezuela is becoming Zimbabwe

GF

pigboat
17th Dec 2014, 22:59
Gentlemen, fire at will.
Is that the guy in the middle with the tats? :p

TBirdFrank
18th Dec 2014, 00:18
Having spent two weeks there ten years ago it was one of the friendliest safest well educated places that I have ever visited.

Its public health service is second to none.

Yes its political systems left more than a lot to be desired - but - let him who is without sin..............

As for the embargo - well - the first vehicle we climbed on was a brand new Volvo B10M. The nearest assembly plant is in Greensborough NC - but that didn't stop the Cubans - they simply bought via Brazil.

There's more than the USA in the world market.

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 00:53
There's more than the USA in the world market.

Yes,,,,,there certainly is.

Funny that, from what others have posted in the past.

Anyway, as I posted earlier, time to move on.

WhatsaLizad?
18th Dec 2014, 01:34
Well that's not going to break my heart. I strongly dislike the place. It was one of the very few places we RONed at where we were told at night to only go out in groups and to carry our weapons.

Nope, don't like the place.

Agreed Con.

Plenty of RON's there. An overpopulated destroyed island that is a financial drag on the USA. Making it the 51st state would be the end of the United States.

I'd vote for Cuba becoming the 51st state before Puerto Rico. Flown over every part of it for 20 years. Hopefully it will open up and evolve into something better than Obama and the Left's Socialist ideal. I see the biggest opposition from Republicans using "freedom" as an excuse to protect special interests like Ag and sugar companies such as the Fanjul brothers. Florida agriculture can be wiped out by the huge area of Cuban wintertime farming real estate.

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 01:45
Yeah, agriculture in Florida is like oil and gas to Oklahoma. But somehow I expect that Florida agriculture can adjust to competition from Cuba.

But Congress is already drawing battle lines for more concession from the Castro brothers before they will approve total normal relations.

It's going to be interesting for the next few months.

Oh, agreed on Puerto Rico.

All anyone needs to know about San Juan is the cesspool that is on short final to the airport.

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 02:02
Seems Russia is interested in Cuba as well.

I am not sure what kind of Reset Button Cankles handed Putin as it seems we are seeing the Cold War coming back at a time when we are cutting back on our Military to pre-WWII numbers of personnel.

Inside the Ring: U.S. intel concerns about Russia-Cuba ties preceded Obama's sanctions deal - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/17/inside-the-ring-us-intel-concerns-about-russia-cub/)

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 02:27
I am not sure what kind of Reset Button Cankles handed Putin as it seems we are seeing the Cold War coming back at a time when we are cutting back on our Military to pre-WWII numbers of personnel.


Not to mention the snotty comment Obama made to Romney about it not being back in the 80s and that there is no more Cold War.

So to prove his point, Obama is laying the ground work to start another one.

mikedreamer787
18th Dec 2014, 02:38
Careful RGB - some of them Coobans can shoot back! :bored:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVQ8byG2mY8

IBMJunkman
18th Dec 2014, 03:34
Gee, when will these be refurbished and ready?

Hotel Nacional De Cuba
Hotel Riviera Havana
Hotel Capri
Habana Hilton


Late 50s here we come! Hell, the cars are still there! :)

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 03:46
Careful RGB - some of them Coobans can shoot back!



He already found that out, the hard and painful way.

chuks
18th Dec 2014, 05:47
Cuba's health system is second to last, for a Cuban!

Well, if Raúl can manage to satisfy those mean old Republicans in Congress and get the embargo lifted, then the Cuban economy might revive and lift the general standard of living a bit, to the point where ordinary Cubans can get decent health care. What next, more to read than Granma?

I really do look forward to a visit next year, an organized tour with a group of German dentists and doctors in the name of learning a bit about the way medicine is practiced in other countries. It's mostly just tourism, but there's a bit of learning in there too.

I was really disappointed not to have seen the infamous Beijing smog, since we were there during APEC, when 500 factories had been shut and half the cars taken off the road.

Next, what do you want to bet that Cuba will be all revived by the time I finally make it to Havana, lots more than just lettuce on sale? I want to see the ruins of socialism, dammit!

El Grifo
18th Dec 2014, 09:06
Don't take it too badly guys and don't say I didn't warn you.

I agree that it was really stupid to keep it going for so long.

Nice one Obama.

Now Gitmo. There's a thing :-)

El G.

PS. Anyone who has a hankering to visit the beautiful country, is well advised to get there before McDonald and his Buddies do :ok:

chuks
18th Dec 2014, 10:17
Dushan just sent me an email on this very topic, how hacked off some of the Sandalistas are going to be when the Golden Arches start springing up like toadstools all over this little socialist isle.

It's amazing, troubling even, how many people freely choose to eat the food in those terrible restaurants! It will be even more troubling to think of them doing that when they already get a free chicken on Chicken Day, thanks to bountiful Cuban socialism. How can this be?

Stand by for an on-the-scene report, next year from Havana! ¡Vamanos!

Thomas coupling
18th Dec 2014, 11:03
Meanwhile in reality land:[Assuming there is FULL dip relations - and no restrictions]

This will transform Cuba - for better and for worse:

For better:
Property prices will rocket as more yanks buy 2nd homes over there. Cafe's and bars, night clubs and shops will flourish. The Cuban black market currency may even disappear. Cubans will see a hike in their welfare and salaries as yanks (et al) use it as their new playground.
[Cuba boasted nearly the highest standard of living in the Spanish-speaking world. It was predominently a nation of cities with a large middle-class. 80 percent of the Cuban people were literate. The share of the national income that went to regular wage-earners was 65 percent—4th highest in the world behind the US, the UK, and Canada.]

For worse:
Remember the 50's? Rich and powerful Americans used Cuba as a brothel. STD's were rife. Crime went thru the roof. Cuba dissolved into a morass of corruption. It had degenerated into a playground for rich Americans that was full of gambling, drinking, sex shows, and prostitution. Everything ran on bribes and kickbacks. The main casinos were operated by the Jewish-American gangster Meyer Lansky, who paid Batista over a million dollars a month for his "license."


Cubans will add to the misery of the USA alongside Mexico. As more and more cubans jump the border patrols and illegally enter yankee land.

PS: What will happen to Guantanamo Bay now??????

bcgallacher
18th Dec 2014, 11:46
Chucks - the Cuban health care system is so bad that the infant mortality rate is lower than the USA - do a little research.

rgbrock1
18th Dec 2014, 12:01
LW50 wrote:

Other nights, a bunch of my sailors ended up in a pickle.
The Black Angus figured in one such evening.

Nothing wrong with sailors who enjoy a good pickle every now and then, no? :}:E

rgbrock1
18th Dec 2014, 12:06
WhatsaLizad wrote:

Plenty of RON's there. An overpopulated destroyed island that is a financial drag on the USA. Making it the 51st state would be the end of the United States.

Um, PR already IS the 51st state. However, it's commonly referred to as Hartford, Connecticrap. :E:}

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 12:07
Must be a correlation between Rice Cookers and free Chickens you reckon?

rgbrock1
18th Dec 2014, 12:09
mikedreamer wrote:

Careful RGB - some of them Coobans can shoot back! :bored:

Dude! I'm very familiar with Cubans firing back. With the 7.76mm model of round. Ouch. :mad:

Scarface. Love the movie. Mostly because of Michelle Pfeiffer. (Who I'm sure you do NOT find attractive as she doesn't have much in the way of the boob department. :}

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2014, 12:10
Anyone who has a hankering to visit the beautiful country, is well advised to get there before McDonald and his Buddies do.
Yes indeed, seeing as how McDonald has now ruined the beauty of France.
(Wait a minute, it didn't)
Truth be told, Grif, my sentiments in re the ubiquitous Golden Arch more or less matches yours.
Does Cuba need McDonald's? No.
Will one end up there? Yes.
Some will see that as progress, I suppose. :p

rgbrock1
18th Dec 2014, 12:13
Bob wrote:

Must be a correlation between Rice Cookers and free Chickens you reckon?

Yup, lots of KFC's in Hartford, CT. :}

Thomas coupling
18th Dec 2014, 12:48
How many yanks on here have actually been to Cuba - out of curiosity?

The health system is a misnomer. It is absolutely appaling yet promotes itself globally as possibly up there with the best. Same goes for education:

Cuba purports to promote that it has a clinic/doctor/nurse un every village in the country. It does, but you have to go see it to believe it!
It normally manifests itself as a run down shed. (I would call it a pigsty).

Normally the building consists two floors, the top one is the clinic and the bottom one is the home where these people share living space and sleep. As one may or may not realise but everyone of working age is employed in Cuba!!!
And interestingly everyone who works earns approx $30/month. Could be a brain surgeon, could be a street cleaner. So, too the doctor/nurse.

So to make ends meet - everyone turns to the thriving black market to obtain alternative means of sustenance. When patients come to the doctor they bring either money or a pig, or sugar cane etc etc. No sustenance - no treatment.

And this is how Cuba promotes health for everyone.

Education: ALL cubans are literate - did you know that? Definition of literate in Cuba: An individual is able to sign official documents???

So why don't newly qualified teachers/medical students do a bunk from the country? In Cuba - before you wish to go on holiday - you have to seek permission from your local governmental branch. They do a backround check on you and if they deduct that you are a "key worker" then they will grant that permission anywhere between 4-5 years after you apply...ish.
Only the select few can travel abroad or earn/own money of great value.

Health care and education system - Bullshit!

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 13:19
How many yanks on here have actually been to Cuba - out of curiosity?

First off....Thank You for speaking the Truth TC.

But....What does that first sentence have to do with anything?

We have been told right here at JB by very learned folk that Opinions are welcome no matter upon what basis they are formed.

As we have folks commenting on every facet of Life Americana who have never been to the United States and have no real knowledge of what they speak then you should grant us the same courtesy when those of us who have never been to Cuba comment about life in that Tropical Paradise and Sporting Complex.

After your first Sentence I fully and completely endorse your comments as that agrees with other reports extant from fully qualified sources.

Cuba is not the Worker's Paradise some seem to think.

Of course we know why that is, both the lack of there being a Communist Utopia and why some non-Cubans wish to tell us how great life there is for the non-Castro Elite.

We know the reality of the Classless Communist Society where everyone is equal but some are more equal than others just like in the old Soviet Union and its Puppet Regimes it once controlled.

Last time I checked, the Boat Traffic has been to the North and not to the South unless it was to rescue those in Rubber Inner Tube rafts or other lashed together craft being used in attempts to flee the Worker's Paradise.

chuks
18th Dec 2014, 13:46
According to official Cuban government sources, Cuba has a very low infant mortality rate.

Might those be the very same folks who tout the Cuban healthcare system (see above), and the Cuban literacy rate (also see above)?

Not to pick on Cuba: In the States nowadays they class tomato ketchup as a "vegetable" when served as part of a balanced school lunch!

Never mind, once we get in there (assuming this embargo is even lifted, due to all the Republicans who shall actually make that decision, not the Prez) then we shall just ruin it, RUIN IT COMPLETELY I SAY, for all those sensitive types who love to see happy Cuban peasants enjoying their socialism dressed in rags, and happy Cuban urbanites tooling around town in their antiquated clunkers.

Oh, but there shall be tears on the pillows when people see how shallow Cubans can be when given a choice between Socialism or Death, or some minor Capitalist amusements. You know, making and spending money instead of depending on a state hand-out that just won't stretch far enough, eating a Quarter-Pounder now and then instead of lining up around the block on Chicken Day, watching a telenovela instead of standing out there in the hot sun to listen to that big, bearded blowhard rant for hours and hours and hours ....

People just do not understand how to make the right choices, once they have a choice, and this is why we need the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. What a pity that it just doesn't seem to work!

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2014, 13:51
Not to pick on Cuba: In the States nowadays they class tomato ketchup as a "vegetable" when served as part of a balanced school lunch!
UH, you might want to leave the 1980's. That's when this little bit of nonsense was exposed.
I've been to Cuba. Guantanamo Bay Cuba. Twice.
Refresher training onboard a ship.
A week of floating about practicing all of the things that can go wrong.
Liberty there was of course confined to the local federal reservation ... and the snorkeling was pretty nice!

Before I die, would I like to go to Cuba for vacation?
Maybe. If we go, it would most likely be as part of a cruise, since my wife has been on me for ages to go on a cruise.

er340790
18th Dec 2014, 15:26
not one person held at Gitmo has been stood in front of an open trench and shot by Firing Squad.


THAT'S RIGHT!!! (They were waterboarded and left to die on a concrete floor from hypothermia. Or was that Poland, Romania, one of the -stans????)

OH BUGGER!!! :oh: :oh: :oh:

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2014, 16:03
... left to die on a concrete floor from hypothermia ... Another lie. You aren't even trying to get this right. The few folks who got water boarded at Gitmo were not so treated. You can find the report on that in open sources. Go and do your effing homework, would you?

You can argue that KSM should not have been if you like. What you should not do is lie about what did happen.

I do recall a prisoner dying from being stuck in a bag, can't recall if it was Iraq or Afgh, and I think one from exposure in a cell ... It's been a few years since that came to light.

airship
18th Dec 2014, 16:07
Dare one introduce the spectre (or specter US spelling, if you prefer) or even SPECTRE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECTRE) that despite the forth-coming 'restoration of normal diplomatic relations', the US Congress will not easily comply with removing the 50 year old trade embargo: without Cuba first also agreeing to properly compensate or restitute those whose property, businesses and other assets were nationalised or otherwise confiscated post-Batista...?!

Cubans should perhaps stoically begin to prepare themselves: for the day when what little they possess today will be removed from them and restituted to the rightful owners. Starting with parting from their aged (and now probably quite valuable classic) Pontiacs and other automotive wrecks. Moving out of their over-crowded, dilapidated and urban lodgings to make room for more up-scale developments. Perhaps, then living in ramshackle shacks in the 'suburbs', they could even be cajoled into going back to working in the newly restored sugar-cane plantations? The best-qualified doctors and nurses could even be given the opportunity to work-off their own shares of the accumulated Cuban debt by serving in US hospitals for say 10-15 years as cheap 'indentured health-workers'. At least until all the US lawyers' fees involved in "La restitución" have been paid.

Viva La Revolución! Viva La Restitución! Amen.

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2014, 16:14
Dare one introduce the spectre (or specter US spelling, if you prefer) or even SPECTRE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECTRE) that despite the forth-coming 'restoration of normal diplomatic relations', the US Congress will not easily comply with removing the 50 year old trade embargo: without Cuba first also agreeing to properly compensate or restitute those whose property, businesses and other assets were nationalised or otherwise confiscated post-Batista...?!

A most excellent question, airship. Mr Rubio is in the Senate, and is from the very constituency who concern themselves about such details, and IIRC he is on the committee that is overseeing this deal.

Some skullduggery in the House and Senate may be afoot soon along those very lines. So the question is: did President Obama do this as a deliberate piece of political strategy? Is this a trap for someone to fall into?

I think the answer is: yes. One of his talents is, whatever his detractors say otherwise, strategic thinking on domestic political moves and maneuvers.

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 16:28
As Lone has trouble with English according to some.....what I took from what he said is Obama is a devious, calculating, cold hearted radical who sees the Ends justifying the Means and no matter the damage he does to the Country as a whole, he shall invariably do whatever he has to notwithstanding the Law, Ethics, Morality, or Conscience to achieve his own agenda of fundamentally changing the American Nation, its standing in the World, its Economic health, and its ability to defend itself. It seems Obama and his close Advisors are intent upon destroying the Country before the end of his last Term in Office.

He is just far more measured in his tone and use of language than I.

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2014, 16:34
Bob:
As Jesus said to Pilate
"Your words, not mine." ;)

ExXB
18th Dec 2014, 16:45
This (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/upshot/can-cuba-escape-poverty-but-stay-healthy.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&abt=0002&abg=1) is what the New York Times has to say about Cuba's health system.

Amongst other titbits is that the average lifespan of a Cuban is (slightly) longer than someone living born in the US!

Sometimes I think posters here just make things up!

Before you descend on me arguing it just isn't so, please read the linked article.

meadowrun
18th Dec 2014, 16:47
Hey, decent over-priced ceegars and sugar cane! Wonder how many in the corporate world will be jumping to invest there with thoughts of Nationalization still dancing in their heads.


Cuba is Canada's third most popular holiday destination. Well, for east coasters anyway who have to put up with 7 months of winter.


Perhaps Cubans will now be able to get cars made after 1957?

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2014, 16:49
This (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/upshot/can-cuba-escape-poverty-but-stay-healthy.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&abt=0002&abg=1) is what the New York Times has to say about Cuba's health system.

Amongst other titbits is that the average lifespan of a Cuban is (slightly) longer than someone living born in the US!
Let's hear it for the Depends(TM) years. :p

rgbrock1
18th Dec 2014, 16:49
Ah yes, Ex, supplying a link to the unbiased NY Times. That settles it then.

LW50:

Well that all depends. :}

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 18:47
How many yanks on here have actually been to Cuba - out of curiosity?

I have, in fact I've been to Havana a lot more that I've been to Guantanamo Bay.

Interestingly enough, Chuks wrote "Socialism or Death", the first time I landed in Havana there were two very large billboard signs at the mid-point of the runway, one had pictures of what one could only assume to be brave Cuban Soldiers ready to fight off the horde of imperialist Yankee invaders, saying 'Socialism or Death'. The other sign had pictures of what could only assume to be brave Cuban men, women and children professing that they would "Die for their Leader", as they fought hordes of imperialist Yankee invaders with shovels and pitchforks.

Behind these two billboard was a major military base, had lots of soldiers, tanks and other types of solider type stuff. I could only presume that the tanks and APC that were lining the runway when we landed came from this base. Along with the guys manning the machine gun tower where we parked at, who bravely kept the big machine gun pointed at us the entire time we were there.

All in all, not a very cordial welcome.

Until I bravely decided to get off the aircraft and walk over to where some Cuban officers were standing smoking cigars and cigarettes. They were looking at me as I walked up to them, checking me out to make sure I was not carrying a bazooka or a nuclear bomb. I nodded to them, pulled out a package of cigarettes from my pocket and pantomimed me smoking my cigarette. One of the older officers, I soon learned that he was a Colonel, looked at me, smiled and said in perfect English that I was welcome to smoke with them. I had just met my first friend in Cuba.

He ended up meeting me every time I landed there and we were able to have lunch on a few occasions when there was time. The last time I landed in Havana in 1998 the military base was gone, the billboards had advertisements of Cuban cigars and rum. Behind the signs instead of the army base, were stands that sold everything from T-shirts, cigars, rum and other assorted tourist things.

I had many interesting conversations about US/Cuban relations, Fidel and other assorted issues faced by the average Cuban citizens. The workers’ paradise it is not, at least according to those I talked to.

This is a step in the right direction for the average Cuban. Never the less, Cuba needs us a lot more than we need them. The Castro brothers need to keep that in mind.

As long as they are in power that is, which if we resume real open relations, I suspect will not be that long.

Thomas coupling
18th Dec 2014, 18:48
Interesting how a patch of the top NE corner of Cuba is "owned" by the USA. Cubans who live in Guantanamo don't come under Americam governmental rule because it is a military restricted zone. And the Cuban government can't impose Cuban rule on the cubans in Guantanamo because they have no jurisdiction there. So the locals make it up as they go along!
The US have told Cuba they will ahnd the area back to them when they deem the Cuban government suitable to the US needs and ethos. :rolleyes:

Dropping the embargo is a poison chalice. It will rid Cuba of its simple - almost innocent lifestyle that was providing most Cubans with a reasonable and unsophisticated life style where family and nation comes first. Modernity should be re-introduced in stages over reasonable time frames. Somehow I can't see this happening. It might be the end of a true communist state but it will also be the extinction of another peaceful way of life.
Sign of the times I suppose.:hmm:

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 18:57
TC,

You do realize the US Government "Leases" the Gitmo Base from the Cuban Government don't you?

That is why Gitmo is Cuban Territory and thus is not US Territory due to an awkward thing called the "Law".

That the Cuban's wish they had never signed the Lease probably and I am sure a lot of other folks might in addition that does not alter the factual situation extant.


When the Cuban Government finally does permit the buying/selling of Real Estate....where is all the money going to come from if everyone earns that common wage described as being $30 per month?

As the Government owns the Land and Real Estate now....just who stands to PROFIT from the initial sale?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/03/world/americas/03cuba.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

ExXB
18th Dec 2014, 19:09
Oh not the unbiased New York Times, references to that socialist rag is expressly forbidden here!

[satcasm intended]

Mechta
18th Dec 2014, 19:24
So its a surprise that the average Cuban is more healthy than the average American? Lets see:



100% access to a less than perfect health system compared to limited access to a very good one.
High levels of innoculation against known diseases/illnesses.
Spared 50 years exposure to McD, BK, KFC, Dunkin Donuts etc.
A largely agricultural eonomy, so plenty of access to fresh food.
Limited car ownership, so a lot of people walk.

Where is the surprise?

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 19:26
Interesting how a patch of the top NE corner of Cuba is "owned" by the USA

Uh, first off, it is located on the SE (south east) corner of Cuba. I know, I've been there. I can guess correctly that you have not.

Secondly, it is leased from Cuba, the US does not 'own' Guantanamo Bay, like the UK owns Gibraltar on the southern end of Spain. Maybe we’ll end our lease when the UK gives back Gibraltar to Spain. :p

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 19:37
Guantanamo is not leased. It is illegally occupied.

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 19:40
Guantanamo is not leased. It is illegally occupied.

Prove it..................................

Thomas coupling
18th Dec 2014, 19:42
Con Pilot / BB:

I guess if you pay a mortgage on your home for 99+ years, I guess one would say they owned the home, wouldn't they.
What does the law say about coercing someone to sign the lease then?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/11/opinion/give-guantanamo-back-to-cuba.html

Obama has already tried to hand it back and shut the vile place down but your senate thought better - and so it goes on as we speak.

Perhaps this is Obama getting his own back via the back door eh?

If anything good comes out of this whole debacle it would be the demise of GTMO.:=

{Apologies - it is the SE and not the NE. I quoted it from memory!! And yes I have been there (as close as possible without entering the zone.)} Several times.

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 19:45
Prove that Guantanamo is illegally occupied?

Ask the Cuban Government.

rgbrock1
18th Dec 2014, 19:45
Guantanamo is not leased. It is illegally occupied
http://www.az9report.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Pinocchio3.jpg


The United States first seized Guantánamo Bay and established a naval base there in 1898 during the Spanish–American War in the Battle of Guantánamo Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guant%C3%A1namo_Bay)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guant%C3%A1namo_Bay#cite_note-Nofi-4):160-163 In 1903, the United States and Cuba signed a lease granting the United States permission to use the land as a coaling and naval station. The lease satisfied the Platt Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platt_Amendment); this amendment stated a naval base at "certain specific points agreed upon by the President of the United States" was needed to "enable the United States to maintain independence of Cuba." The United States and Cuba signed a treaty in 1934, granting the United States a perpetual lease; private enterprise is not allowed under the treaty.

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 19:51
Obama has already tried to hand it back and shut the vile place down but your senate thought better - and so it goes on as we speak.


I've never heard him say that, what I have heard him say and understood him to say that he to shut down the prison located in Guantanamo Bay, but not the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base.

If you could provide something that he does in fact wants to shut down the naval base as well, I would appreciate it.

By the way, the Senate has been controlled by the Democrats since President Obama was first elected and still is to this day. The Republicans do not take control until after the first year.

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 19:53
A lease signed under duress is not a valid lease.

The current Cuban Government repudiated it on assuming power.

rgbrock1
18th Dec 2014, 19:54
How do you know the lease was signed under duress in 1934, were you there?
Did it appear to you that the Cuban signers were under duress as you witnessed it?

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 19:55
A lease signed under duress is not a valid lease.

The current Cuban Government repudiated it on assuming power.

You mean like Spain and Gibraltar then do you. :p

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 20:02
rgbrock1,

No, I wasn't there. Unlike you I know something of Cuba's history.

Con-Pilot,

Gibraltar isn't leased.:p

airship
18th Dec 2014, 20:05
Aww heck! Just send the Cubans a few container loads of blankets, axe heads and other useful implements / useless trinkets. It worked for the Injuns (I mean Native Americans, as opposed to American Indians; or Indian Americans or other indigenous folks) didn't it?! I think I just confused myself... ;)

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 20:07
Gibraltar isn't leased

Nope, it was stolen in a treaty. :p

And Spain wants it back, selfish bastards. :E

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 20:09
Stolen in a treaty which was freely assented to by all parties? I think not.:p

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 20:12
Stolen in a lease which was freely assented to by all parties? I think not. :p

Fixed it for you. :ok:

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 20:17
You're not very good at this history lark, are you?

Treaty of Utrecht - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Utrecht)

:ok:

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 20:31
I guess if you pay a mortgage on your home for 99+ years, I guess one would say they owned the home, wouldn't they.

Depends upon the Mortgage Contract I guess.

In a LEASE one generally does not obtain ownership of the property and only gets the use of the property.

So we don't know where the Real Estate lays, confuse the Type of Contract that controls the Agreement, and you want to convince us you know of what you speak.

Sorry....better start over.

So any agreement signed under "duress" does not count....like Versailles, Tokyo Harbor, and other Historical documents. Interesting concept.

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 20:41
Seems to be a well understood concept in American jurisprudence:

Signing Under Duress: When Does it Render a Contract Void? | LawGuru.com (http://www.lawguru.com/articles/law/business-law/signing-under-duress-when-does-it-render-a-contract-void)

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 21:02
You're not very good at this history lark, are you?


Actually yes I am and I was actually waiting for you to bring that up.

And the current government of Spain wants Gibraltar back and has repudiated the treaty.

Just like the current government of Cuba.

So if it is good enough for Cuba, it's good enough for Spain.

Tag, you're it. :p

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 21:06
Seems to be a well understood concept in American jurisprudence:


Again, you have not proved that the lease was signed under duress.

Just because the current government of Cuba says so, does not make it so. No matter how much you think it is so.

There, I think I got enough ‘so’s in there.

airship
18th Dec 2014, 21:12
Uhoh! Is the 'tag-team' back? john_hill won't be happy (must be coming upto dawn in NZ by now)...

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 21:18
I knew that you'd be waiting for me to bring that up.:p

The current Spanish Government may well wish to repudiate the Treaty of Utrecht. Unfortunately for them the ceding of Gibraltar under that treaty has already happened and repudiation won't change that.

That's the difference between owning and leasing. :ok:

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 21:28
Another view of Obama's Speech about Cuba.

Warning! Facts countering Talking Points Contained within the linked Material.

“Libertad es el derecho que todo hombre tiene a ser honrado, y a pensar y a hablar sin hipocresía.”



http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/12/18/line-by-line-every-empty-promise-in-obamas-cuba-speech/

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 21:39
That's the difference between owning and leasing.

Oh it really doesn't matter that much anymore, as it will all soon be worked out. Plus, while Cuba has accepted all of the lease payments since Castro took power, they haven't cashed any of them.

So now they can, and instant millions of US dollars.

Had fun, must do this again sometime.

Very nice when there is no name calling. :ok:

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 21:46
As Cuba has not cashed the attempted payments for the voided lease they have not by any definition accepted them.:ok:

Bob,

Your linked article is weakened by its obvious political bias. But it's absolutely correct in one respect - the Cubans hold the whip hand here.

Boudreaux Bob
18th Dec 2014, 21:53
Perth,

You use Wiki and then challenge another source.:ugh:

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 22:00
I use objective sources.

I challenge those which are not objective.

Have you got a problem with that?

con-pilot
18th Dec 2014, 22:15
As Cuba has not cashed the attempted payments for the voided lease they have not by any definition accepted them

Doesn't matter, the US has held their end of the lease, up to Cuba to cash them or not.

Which I supect they'll soon cash them, they need the money and now they have an excuse to do so, after all, in their eyes they (the Castro brothers) have won. President Obama has blinked first.

Also, keep in mind that Carter and Clinton both could have done the same, but didn't.

perthsaint
18th Dec 2014, 22:44
There is no lease. It is void.:ok:

But, just for fun, let's assume the Cubans would agree a lease in return for the payment of rent from 1959 at current market rates.

The use of Manas air base in Kyrgyzstan cost $60m per annum. Guantanamo is rather larger so.... $500m per annum? For 55 years. Plus interest. Shall we say $40bn plus $500m per annum?:ok:

galaxy flyer
18th Dec 2014, 23:47
Gitmo is pretty simple, we took it, fair and square. They don't like it, they shouldn't have lost the Spanish-American War. They want it back, TRY. We should stop payment on the checks and ask for all the "illegal" pension payments for those that worked on Gitmo back. Cubans liked working on base, they like the pensions. Well, in your view the base shouldn't exist, hence no pension.

GF

chuks
19th Dec 2014, 06:23
I just read a think piece in the local German paper. The recent impulse towards change from the Cuban side, according to the article, comes from the collapse of oil prices and the inability of Venezuela to prop up the Cuban regime in the same way that the Soviet Union once did, Raúl Castro seeing what is coming, in a way that his older brother Fidel could not.

An adjacent article says that Canada played a key role in this rapprochement by providing places for US and Cuban diplomats to meet in Ottawa and Toronto.

Who was it who said that history doesn't repeat itself but that sometimes it rhymes?

I enjoyed reading that NYT article, citing one of the same facts that supposedly had been "made up." Funny thing, that ....

US imperialism is another historical fact, but one from the past, when "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." Given what happened in the Philippines, it's probably just as well that we did not try to annex Cuba.

This could end up like the Egyptians getting "democracy," when the reality turns out to be very different from what people think has happened. Obama and Castro made speeches, and that's it for now. Let's see what the Republican-controlled legislature do next, about the embargo. All those Republicans in Miami's "Little Havana" might bring some influence to bear on that. Me, I'll settle for the lifting of travel and spending restrictions, if that means that I finally get to see the place first-hand.

con-pilot
19th Dec 2014, 16:43
Me, I'll settle for the lifting of travel and spending restrictions

My guess is that will happen first. Just when is the big question, soon I hope.

John Hill
19th Dec 2014, 18:04
It's a tough decision to normalize relations with a country whose police
force routinely murders civilians, but Cuba made the right choice..
Jon Stewart Knows What Book He's Getting Cruz And Rubio For The Holidays | Crooks and Liars (http://crooksandliars.com/2014/12/jon-stewart-knows-what-book-hes-getting)

West Coast
19th Dec 2014, 18:37
I'm willing to bet the US has an embassy in Havana before NZ. The Kiwis seem to think having an embassy in Mexico is good enough despite the Cuban's having one in NZ.

John Hill
19th Dec 2014, 18:59
I thought the US already has a 'presence' in Cuba?

FakePilot
19th Dec 2014, 19:29
t's a tough decision to normalize relations with a country whose police
force routinely murders civilians, but Cuba made the right choice..
Jon Stewart Knows What Book He's Getting Cruz And Rubio For The Holidays | Crooks and Liars

You do know he's a comedian, right? It seems many think he's the leading source in, well, everything. He should go to Cuba like Michael Moore did, because holding up Cuba is a shining example seems to be a career killer.
Jon Stewart, the Myth Busters of Politics....

con-pilot
19th Dec 2014, 19:43
I thought the US already has a 'presence' in Cuba?

You thought correctly, it is or was called the "Office of US Affairs"* that was based in the Swiss Embassy. I worked with them many times and they used to come out and met us officially until our trips became somewhat ordinary. But even then, a couple of them would come out just to visit with us.


* Can’t really remember if that was it was called or not, but it’s close.

West Coast
19th Dec 2014, 20:23
The Cubans are nice enough to lease us gitmo as well.

Why doesn't NZ have an embassy in Cuba? I get it NZ is a small nation but so is Cuba and yet they maintain an embassy in NZ.

Paul Wilson
19th Dec 2014, 21:46
It's the US interests section of the Swiss embassy, which happens to occupy the old US embassy, and has no physical connection to the Swiss embassy at all. If you are imagining a couple of rooms of the Swiss embassy with a couple of doughty Americans there to represent US interests you are very much mistaken. It's seven stories high for goodness sake!, and a good deal less attractive than the Cuban interests section of the Swiss embassy in Washington (similar arrangement)

Just because a country breaks off diplomatic relations doesn't mean that there aren't an awful lot of diplomats having relations.

con-pilot
19th Dec 2014, 21:57
It has been a long time since I was there and never actually went to the offices of US Interests. So I'm sure you are right.

Also, about every time I landed in Havana there were US registered corporate aircraft parked on a ramp. Sometimes just one and other times four or more. But with this announcement by President Obama, I’ll bet that there will soon be a lot more US registered corporate aircraft arriving in Havana.

perthsaint
19th Dec 2014, 22:07
The Cubans don't lease anything to anyone.

Nice try, though.:ok:

El Grifo
20th Dec 2014, 17:33
Think it's time for my snaps again :)

El G.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/ronn-b/sets/72157628591547581/

con-pilot
20th Dec 2014, 17:50
Nice pics big G. :ok:

El Grifo
20th Dec 2014, 18:02
Same old same old Con !

Just slapped them up to warm a few hearts on a winters night :-)

Seasons greetings amigo :ok:


El G.

con-pilot
20th Dec 2014, 18:39
Merry Christmas and Happy New Big G. :ok:

West Coast
20th Dec 2014, 20:02
Perth

You might want to do some checking on that. Them Cubans aren't exactly thrilled with the arrangement, but it doesn't mean they don't have to respect the agreement.

galaxy flyer
20th Dec 2014, 20:16
It's a tough decision to normalize relations with a country whose police
force routinely murders civilians, but Cuba made the right choice..

Like the Cuban military and police are innocent lambs who never killed their own citizens for political reasons. At least the US isn't hat boring the world's worst criminals, including hijackers, murderers, terrorists.

Cuba was the largest nation in the world--capital in Havana, Government in Moscow and Army in Africa.

GF

galaxy flyer
20th Dec 2014, 20:20
perthsaint,

If Cuba isn't leasing us Gitmo by long-standing agreement, then you must agree that land isn't their's, as leasing implies they own it. Must be sovereign US property, then.

GF

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 21:47
West, Galaxy,

There is no agreement. Your country is illegally occupying part of another sovereign state.

con-pilot
20th Dec 2014, 22:59
There is no agreement. Your country is illegally occupying part of another sovereign state.

If we are, what are you going to do about it?



That's what I thought.

West Coast
20th Dec 2014, 23:09
Do tell Perth...

Convince me that the US is illegally occupying it. Make sure you gloss over the lease agreement with your convincing argument.

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 23:11
Me? I'm going to do nothing. It is an inconvenience when driving to and from Baracoa, though.

I suspect this will be one of the main problems to be resolved once relations are re-established.

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 23:12
West,

I don't need a convincing argument. There is no lease.

con-pilot
20th Dec 2014, 23:13
I suspect this will be one of the main problems to be resolved once relations are re-established.


Yeah, when the Casro brothers are kicked out of power, the new Democratic government will cash the rent checks. :p

West Coast
20th Dec 2014, 23:17
Perth

Really? Can you explain away the signed docs?

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 23:21
What signed docs? The current Cuban Government voided the agreement when they came to power.

There was a lease but no longer.

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 23:24
Con-Pilot,

That's an interesting supposition on a number of fronts.

West Coast
20th Dec 2014, 23:29
That would be the document the Cuban President signed. The same document that states any change to the agreement must be agreed upon by both parties.

The document is still valid.

Boudreaux Bob
20th Dec 2014, 23:30
Cuba will be the 51st State before you convince Perth of anything!:=

West Coast
20th Dec 2014, 23:31
Likely correct, but the truth often isn't easy to swallow.

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 23:35
Indeed it isn't.

galaxy flyer
20th Dec 2014, 23:40
perthsaint,

Other than anti-American emotion, do you have any controlling documentation on the subject of there being no lease? There is a treaty, a lease and a reaffirmation of the lease in 1934 with new payment terms on my side.

GF

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 23:42
And there is the public repudiation of the lease by the Cuban Government on mine.

Oh, and the fact that the Cubans don't accept the payments you try to make.

galaxy flyer
20th Dec 2014, 23:47
Thanks for the idea, perthsaint, I'll stop by the bank on Monday, stop sending checks and repudiate my car lease and it's done.

A very anti-American government thinks they can just say we repudiate the lease, refuse to cash the checks and that's dispositive? You're dreaming.

GF

perthsaint
20th Dec 2014, 23:49
Glad to be of assistance. :ok:

West Coast
20th Dec 2014, 23:55
Perth

So it's clear to me, your view hinges on those two points?

perthsaint
21st Dec 2014, 00:00
My view is based on the facts.

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 00:17
What fact(s)?

The facts lend themselves to the lease remaining intact.
- Lease payments has been made.
- The original agreement requires both parties to agree to change the lease. The US obviously hasn't agreed to this.

On your side

- Fidel won't cash the checks. Means nothing. Just the same, he hasn't returned the payments either.
- A revolution voids a contract.

Does Fidel and his ilk owe those whose companies he nationalized?

perthsaint
21st Dec 2014, 00:23
The lease does not remain intact as it no longer exists. I'm not sure why you say the Cubans haven't returned the payments. As the cheques haven't been cashed no payment has been made.

Yes, of course the Cubans owe those whose companies have been nationalised.

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 00:32
Au contraire, it does exist. The Methods approved by the Cuban government at the time of signing to amend or abrogate the contract have not been invoked. A revolution does not negate the lease. The base is still there, ergo...

As the cheques haven't been cashed no payment has been made.

Payment has been made, can't force them to cash the check.

perthsaint
21st Dec 2014, 00:36
A revolution does not negate a lease but the repudiation of a lease signed under duress does.

The fact that the base is currently still there signifies nothing.

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 00:50
What duress was President Palma under? Can you provide some evidence of this?

perthsaint
21st Dec 2014, 00:57
Sure. Read any book about Cuba's history. Post the 1898 war Cuba was an informal American colony. It was not a relationship between equals. It's hardly surprising that agreements made at the time were heavily loaded against the Cubans. As the lease was signed under these conditions Cuba was able to repudiate it on the grounds of duress.

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 01:21
I was really hoping for something in the legal realm and not an authors opinion.

I suppose the second signing in 1934 was also under duress in your mind?

galaxy flyer
21st Dec 2014, 02:19
WTF do you mean by a "relationship between equals"? They were an independent country, with a internally approved constitution, numerous elections and US law declared that annexation of Cuba was not US policy. For most of its history, post WW I and complete US withdrawal, Cuba had among the best economies, education, medical business, and wealth of any Latin American country. It had more doctors in 1955 than Britain, a per capita GDP exceeding Japan, the 8th highest in the world.

Your anti-Americanism is really the only factual basis of any dreams that Cuba was a colony.

GF

obgraham
21st Dec 2014, 02:36
I see we have another in the long tradition of John and PTT, who believe that simply stating their opinion over and over will somehow convince us of their veracity.

PPRuNe at its finest!

Boudreaux Bob
21st Dec 2014, 02:40
That is why they are all safely stashed away out of harm's way at my end.:ok:

con-pilot
21st Dec 2014, 03:19
Sorry, I was going to stay out of this, but some lines are just too good to pass up.

Post the 1898 war Cuba was an informal American colony

If that is true, then so is the following;

Post the Second World War the UK was an informal American colony.

:p

I see an opening, I'm going for it. :E

rh200
21st Dec 2014, 03:32
Post the Second World War the UK was an informal American colony.

Sorry Con, but staying at the parents house for a while to help out, does not mean its yours. Siblings generally need to wait until the parents croak it before taking ownership. :p:E

chuks
21st Dec 2014, 07:56
Raúl Castro just gave a rather conciliatory speech meant to help things along by acknowledging the need for some changes to long-held socialist ideals ....

Just funnin' y'all there! But then none of you really thought that old dinosaur really wants to see the embargo lifted, did you? Not even our Happy Snapper is that green! No, Raúl just let loose with more of the usual rhetoric, ending with a hearty ¡Viva Fidel! just to drive the message home.

If you think the Republican controlled legislature is going to vote to end the embargo after seeing this carry-on, well, forget the free chickens and wait for the flying pigs!

Then we can look forward to bad old Uncle Sam taking the blame for refusing to sort out the mess started by Fidel. No, sorry, started by us helping the Cubans kick out the Spanish. Well, choose one, when it shall be "handbags at ten paces."

FlyMD
21st Dec 2014, 08:13
If I still smoked them, I would hate what this "normalization" is going to do to the price of cuban cigars. Cohiba robustos go for 25$ a piece as it is, without the fat, gunned-up torture monkeys buying the market dry...

chuks
21st Dec 2014, 09:23
You are left out since you don't smoke Cuban cigars, thus depriving you of one more reason to hate us, the torture monkeys?

Sounds like you need to start smoking cigars again, amigo. Or just go ahead and hate us anyway. Come on! You know you want to ... ¡Viva Fidel!

This time of year is a tough one for haters, all this love and kisses and whatnot going around. Jinglebells, bah!

El Grifo
21st Dec 2014, 10:30
Pretty balanced view :-

BBC News - What Cuba's new friendship with US means for everyday life (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30553594)

Thomas coupling
21st Dec 2014, 16:47
It doesn't matter what we all say - if you can find time to read authoritative literature on the history behind the "lease arrangements" one will find that from day one Cuba was in no position to contest the lease. Bit like good old US of A and the indigenous population when they ransacked the North American Indian homeland. It happens everywhere - the end.

The bottom line is that this latest diplomatic shift could mean the end of the old 'arrangements' between Cuba and America on historic grounds and an agreement to go fwd together.
The days of Batista are forever over. The days of true Communism are probably over. Castro will go down a legend and rightfully so - he snatched Cuba from the hands of the Americans and preserved some kind of 'normality' outside of westernisation (which, believe it or not is not the be all or end all of civilisation and how it should be done!).

The BIG worry now is - will it still be able to retain some kind of national identity or will it simply become another state of America and drown itself in western idealism.
Money is king - simply follow the yellow brick road all the way back to who the paymaster is - I suppose. Ah well - the good news could be the end of GTMO.................................Cuba ha muerto, larga vida a Cuba

West Coast
21st Dec 2014, 16:53
And the second signing was also signed under similar conditions?

Duress is something proven in a legal sense not in ones opinion, can you provide a legal opinion to support your opinion?

rh200
21st Dec 2014, 19:52
Acutally:p:p:p

Didn't Obama just come out and say, he will do "every thing" he can to close Gitmo? be the sort of thing he would do, a revision type stuff.

(Cue Obama with that stupid look at the Podium) "Hey we forced the Cubans into signing, now we have no choice to give it back in line with our true values".

gitmo closed, mission accomplished!:E

fitliker
21st Dec 2014, 20:02
The propaganda value of having a prisoners sunning themselves Cuba has been priceless.
While some poor sods have been hiding in lice infested caves for over a decade .Pictures of well fed prisoners cavorting around on a holiday island playing football in the sunshine and reading their favorite books .
It must be truly demoralizing for those left hiding in the hills starving with only goats to love and eat to see their old friends having fun in the sun :)