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nomorecatering
14th Dec 2014, 22:44
No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/martin-place-siege-hostages-taken-in-lindt-chocolate-shop-by-armed-robber/story-fni0cx4q-1227156245751?nk=54b7110091f7036400b7569fc564f35c)

11:03 - police radio indicating something is also happening at Sydney Opera House

MTOW
14th Dec 2014, 23:10
They obviously want to be martyrs. I sincerely hope the police oblige them, or we'll have the usual suspects defending them and suing Tony Abbott (because he's obviously to blame) and they'll be out in gaol in too few years and back on the DSP.

Joe Hockey will at least be pleased. This will take to spotlight off his rejigged budget.

Hempy
14th Dec 2014, 23:25
So any white arabic writing on a black background is an 'ISIS' flag now is it? Sensationalise much??

Mr Chips
14th Dec 2014, 23:32
Most likely to be a few Muslims at most, probably not every follower of that religion. Sensationalise much?

nomorecatering
14th Dec 2014, 23:48
Police investigating suspect items around the CBD...1 is confirmed by police at the Opera House.

Multiple raids on houses by police happening in and around Lakemba.

bosnich71
14th Dec 2014, 23:53
Perhaps Lindt haven't paid their Halal tax.

mickjoebill
14th Dec 2014, 23:59
Media showing restraint in not showing police tactics live.
Hostage takers chose cafe opposite a Tv station.


Pictures show middle aged man wearing backpack inside cafe acting casually.
Age of the bloke is apparently more of a concern than if he was younger.
Foreign fighter recruiters are older.
Fear is that any of his young contacts or sympthatises will act in the next hours or days.
Larger plot other devices threatened/reported/imagined.

Flights rerouted to allow police helicopters to operate.

Even if this is a lone nutter, oz has lost its innocence..
But the MO for previous attacks is that violence occurs without warning, at time of writing the gunman has been in the building for 2 1/2 hours...
Mickjoebill

Hempy
15th Dec 2014, 00:27
Lone nutjob arrested. Move along.

SOPS
15th Dec 2014, 00:31
Wrong Hempy. Hostage situation continuing. We are at war. Reports now that Sydney airport to be closed. Tony Abbott to address the nation very shortly.

mickjoebill
15th Dec 2014, 00:34
Lone nutjob arrested. Move along.


Reports that the arrest is unrelated.
Boss of Lindt reports that there are fifty hostages.
On the day of his retirement in September the head of oz spy agency David Irvin said an attack in oz was likely, the very same day security level was raised.
Numerous recent arrests, including two last night, may have been the trigger for this event.

Flag is not an isis flag
Gun looks to be a sawn off shotgun and the way he is walking around with the one meter tall backpack indicates to me that it is not stuffed full with nasty stuff, which may indicate he is more fringe supporter than a trained terrorist.

Even so he is making an impact.

PM says they dont know if it is politically motivated, so at moment his statement infers it is a criminal act, not an act of terrorism. If it crosss the line and becomes an act of terrorism federal agencies take over and miitary are involved.



Mickjoebill

evansb
15th Dec 2014, 00:43
I just can't keep from imagining how peaceful this planet would be without Islam...

SOPS
15th Dec 2014, 00:50
Reports now of explosive devices planted throughout the city. Traffic is being diverted off the harbour bridge. I really hope this does not end badly.

MTOW
15th Dec 2014, 01:01
Pure supposition on my part, but I can't help suspecting - much to Hempy's disdain, I'm sure - that there may have been multifaceted, multi-locality attacks planned and that the arrests earlier this morning might have messed up the grand plan. But the police missed this fellow(s).

My daughter, who works two blocks away, along with all her work colleagues, has been sent home.

meadowrun
15th Dec 2014, 01:11
If you can take a pic of a person, you can take a shot.

Ogre
15th Dec 2014, 01:14
Back in the 70's when it seemed a week didn't go by without some hostage taking somewhere, we'd all sit and listen to teh radio and read the newspapers to find out the latest. Now with social meedja everyone is a reporter and everyone is an expect in what they saw.

Panic ensues, and the hostage takers job is done. In the next few weeks I forsee a spate of copy cats which bear no relationship to the original.

Saying that there was a quite nice young lady interviewed on the telly who was some form of expert in terrorism, who pointed out that the wording on the flag appears to have been hijacked by the extremists. Near the end of the interview she said something along the lines of "You are not doing Islam any good, you re not doing yourself any good, you are not doing the hostages any good. Just hand yourself over to the police now" Seemed a reasoned argument...

TheBigD
15th Dec 2014, 01:19
American thoughts and prayers are with our good Australian friends. Hopefully, all of the hostages and first responders will come out unharmed.

Stanwell
15th Dec 2014, 01:37
NO!

You don't understand.
He is a victim - just a member of an oppressed minority here.

Now, where's my ammo?
I'll just pop down there and give him some counselling.

reynoldsno1
15th Dec 2014, 01:37
Media showing restraint in not showing police tactics live.
I believe the police 'requested' them to 'cease' live feeds ... :oh:

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 01:38
Hempy right on top of things again it appears!:rolleyes:

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 01:48
Apparently its not a ISIS/L flag, but a common one used widely. Though it has been adopted by several Islamic terrorist groups.

So a better description would be held up an Islamic terrorist flag.

And yes there several people who would like to understate things for various reasons, just as much as there are those who want to overstate.

mickjoebill
15th Dec 2014, 01:55
No devices found in the city so far.
The sense is that at the moment this is the only active threat.
Doesnt look to be a sophisticated attack, but the police response is to assume the worst case scenario.

Hostage numbers are guesswork, ten staff plus unknown customers.
Chief of police say they dont know his motivation, cant rule terrorism in or out.
Police have not been in direct contact with the offender.

Note that a message was intercepted from a know terrorist to oz followers to kidnap a random member of the public in Martin Place.
The message was made public ostensibly to forewarn public of the threat.

Mickjoebill

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 02:02
ISIS did call for Lone Wolf Attacks in the Western World as I recall.

The presence of the Islamic Flag does suggest there might just be an Islamic connection to the Hostage Taking.

Something about Walking like a Duck, Quacking like a Duck, and Looking like a Duck.....making the possibility you are looking at a Duck more than likely.

Is there some connection to the foiled Beheading thing perhaps????

At ease
15th Dec 2014, 02:10
So any white arabic writing on a black background is an 'ISIS' flag now is it? Sensationalise much?? The ABC describes the situation thus:

Key points:


Heavily armed police have taken up position around the Lindt cafe in central Sydney
At least one armed offender holding "undisclosed number" of hostages, police say
Police still working to determine motivation of offender and have moved to a footing consistent with a terrorism event
Black flag with white Arabic writing reading "There is no God but Allah" and "Mohammed is the messenger of God" waved behind the hostages
Martin Place, Sydney Opera House, State Library and all CBD court houses evacuated
Lindt Australia executive says there are about 10 staff and up to 30 customers trapped in the cafe. Police declined to comment on the number of hostages involved.
National Security Committee of Cabinet has convened; Prime Minister Tony Abbott described incident as "deeply concerning" and offered NSW all assistance possible.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-15/sydney-siege-hostages-cafe-martin-place-police-operation/5967232

I'm not au fait with ISIS flags, but this seems close enough.

V2-OMG!
15th Dec 2014, 02:17
Do you think it's time for some of this?....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NHcTM5IA4

tartare
15th Dec 2014, 02:49
...more like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82).

Fantome
15th Dec 2014, 02:51
Another disturbance in Martin Place . . . . subject of one of Les Murray's best poems -


An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow

The word goes round Repins,
the murmur goes round Lorenzinis,


at Tattersalls, men look up from sheets of numbers,


the Stock Exchange scribblers forget the chalk in their hands


and men with bread in their pockets leave the Greek Club:


There's a fellow crying in Martin Place. They can't stop him.


the complete poem of nine stanzas is here -
An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow by Les Murray (http://www.lesmurray.org/pm_aor.htm)

ExSp33db1rd
15th Dec 2014, 03:21
Just reported in the New Zealand Herald newspaper .... such compassion .......

Taxi hailing service Uber is reportedly charging its users in downtown Sydney a minimum A$100 ($106) to get out of the CBD, Mashable reported.
The charge was a result of the hostage crisis, which had increased fares due to a high demand for the service. A screenshot sent to the website showed the company was charging up to four times the normal rate because "demand is off the charts".

hoofie
15th Dec 2014, 04:25
Welcome to the world of London ever since the 1970's [or even 1940].

Australia has never had to get used to a distinct threat level before.

Unfortunately the violent Islamic genie is well out of the bottle in Oz and has been building for decades.

CityofFlight
15th Dec 2014, 04:40
So many are quick to condemn the methods a country took to extract Intel from their enemies. How nice to judge from the comforts of your home, when not the bullseye of lethal threat.

Sure seems that politcal neutrality and/or all the PC, bending over backwards for peace, doesn't mean a thing for the migration of people whose known hostilities were allowed to fester under the quilt of passive tolerance.

So...grab your ankles folks, if you think it's working. You'll be praying to Allah soon enough, with prayer rugs bought from Halal certified merchants. I sure hope someone will say this article is satire. Even then, with satire, there is often grains of truth.

https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/posts/10152768703966336

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 05:24
The problem in this case is information, that is potentially not enough of it. It could be anything from a single fruit loop type, thinking he is doing the right thing, to a much worse and insidious agenda.

Another words there are a wide range of scenarios that the police may or may not know about.

The next problem is the media, we just had a talking mouth trying to explain how the hostages could react and there's no hard or fast rule as the hostage taker is irrational. WTF! how do you know that, the hostage taker/s could be extremely rational and calculating.

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 05:34
Media showing restraint

The media have been nothing but a joke for this whole incident.
Some of the more memorable quotes I've heard so far.

"Town Hall station is directly below the Lindt Cafe"
"The entire city circle has been shut down"
"Its not clear if they were released or if they escaped" (after watching them running for their lives to escape)
"I'm standing on College st looking directly at the Lindt cafe" (He was standing on Macquarie St, College St doesn't even intersect with Martin Place).
"All airspace over Sydney has been closed".
"There are up to 30 hostages" (it started at 12, then 13, then 20, then 30!)
"We saw hostages standing at 8 or 9 windows at the front of the Cafe with their hands raised (There are only 4 or 5 windows at the front of the cafe)

TWT
15th Dec 2014, 05:41
And...showing close up video of the terrified hostages escaping on a loop,again and again and again back to back (Channel 9)

Which is exactly what the bad guys want.Video of terrified people running for their lives broadcast far and wide.

Media are scumbags as well as being idiots :ugh:

mickjoebill
15th Dec 2014, 05:52
Channel ten reporting that witness statement from one who escaped that "The Brother" as he wants to be called, says there are 2 bombs in cafe and 2 other bombs in the CBD.

Hostage videoed dragging finger across her throat.

Also it is clear he is not stoping hostages communicating with outside world. Both channel nine and channel ten say they have been contacted by hostages.
Channel Ten say hostages are desperate for his demands to be met, they will take their desperation to be released to facebook.
It was two phone calls from terrified female hostages, they were relaying direct from the gunman.
Police did not stop C10 from broadcasting the info.

Demands are a Isil flag to be delivered and a talk on phone with the PM will secure release of one hostage.

Hard to know the long term effect of this perverted use of social media.


Mickjoebill

Simplythebeast
15th Dec 2014, 05:59
Doesnt seem like your 'normal' Islamic terrorist attack. Dont recall any in the past where 'terrorist(s)' took hostages and waited for hours, when the opportunity was there to kill innocents and gain maximum publicity for their evil ways. This berk appears to have contacted local media too and is now in touch with Police Negotiators. Sounds like a fruit loop.

parabellum
15th Dec 2014, 05:59
Don't think it is a full on ISIL staged event. ISIL, by reputation, would have used a minimum of three people and would probably have murdered one or two people by now. Suspect this may be a lone wolf, possibly not affiliated to any known militant organisation, if he is then possibly acting on his own and without their knowledge/approval. Just my 'take' on it.


Post crossed with simplythebeast's, similar thinking!

Simplythebeast
15th Dec 2014, 06:42
Weapon is a shotgun. Not what one would expect in a pre planned IS terrorist attack. Interesting, the hatred and racist opinions being chucked around on Twitter at the moment, not to mention some of the wild reporting being carried out by some local newspapers.

chuks
15th Dec 2014, 06:47
That flag might bear the shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith, the creed: "There is no god but God; Muhammed is the messenger of God."

It's the same motif that's on the Saudi flag, for instance. It's not really exclusive to one particular movement such as IS, since it's meant to show general adherence to Islam. The Swiss flag could be taken as something similar, with its white cross on a red field, showing historical Swiss adherence to Christianity.

Such examples should show that any display of either the shahada or the cross may not necessarily denote religious fanaticism. Just don't try telling this to the news services, or probably to whoever this is who wants to show the shahada before his group of hostages.

The shahada is one of the "five pillars of Islam," along with prayer, alms-giving, fasting, and performing the haj. A convert must recite the shahada in order to become a Muslim, and a believer recites it in prayer.

Too, the shahada may be used as a shibboleth, in this case something one may be asked to say to show adherence to Islam.

Andu
15th Dec 2014, 07:11
Watching the evening Ch 7 news, it's extraordinary the lengths the talking heads will go to to avoid being seen to be judgmental and critical of Muslims. The blond female stand in anchor is handling herself quite well, (in my opinion at least), but one male commentator she dragged on camera went to great lengths to remind us all that the hostage taker might be a non-Muslim using the Islamic flag to further his own non-Islamic agenda.

If he's alone, (and doesn't have a sleeper or two among the hostages), there's a real possibility of a crisis occurring, with everything going off the rails, if he feels himself tiring and falling asleep. Let's hope he's bluffing about the explosives he says he's carrying. I'm tending to think he is. Hope I'm not proven to be wrong on that.

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 07:17
Demands are a Isil flag to be delivered and a talk on phone with the PM will secure release of one hostage.

Well that would take care of one hostage, what about the rest?

Weapon is a shotgun. Not what one would expect in a pre planned IS terrorist attack.

That would seem to be the case, but! We don't have the availability and range of weapons of other countries, though I suspect a determined person could get what they want. Though they stand the chance of raising suspicion in the process.

That said, what is the perfect weapon for close quarters large crowd, creating as much damage to victims? I would suspect a shotgun sawn off. Very messy.

Though I suspect a lone wolf wack job, there are still other possibilities. Both cases have their own issues.

If its a lone wolf, what is his end game, if it drags on he will become tired and even more unpredictable.

The next issue is, if it isn't a lone wolf. We are entirely predictable in how we react to these things, and that can be a problem. 911 happened because we as a people our response was predictable.

At the moment how many of our resources are tied up? Now the police will be aware of that scenario, but still, its a game on who can out smart who with strategy.

But as I said, I still think its a singular wacko, lets hope thats true.

Captain Sand Dune
15th Dec 2014, 07:21
How it should end: Men in black pajamas storm in and aerate gunman’s cranium. Multiple arrests made to round up other nutters who are subject to ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’. Authorities make a clear unambiguous statement that similar actions will be met with lethal force. Australians finally realize that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.
What will most likely happen: Men in black pajamas are subject to lengthy inquiry about how they went about their jobs and why. Police guards put on mosques and other places of significance to the Muslim population to guard against possible retaliatory action. Politicians make a sniveling, grovelling statement that the actions of this terrorist cannot possibly speak for moderate Muslims. Australians keep their heads firmly stuck up their collective asses.

I am pleased to see the meedja have been kept on a short leash and given only what they need to know, rather than acting as an agent for the enemy as they so often have in the past. Downside is that we have been subject to hours of drivel from talking heads who patently know fcuk all about anything. Oh well, got a lot of useful stuff done around the house!

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 07:38
I am pleased to see the meedja have been kept on a short leash and given only what they need to know,

The police media circus is as ridiculous.

Holding back live video feeds is akin stupidity, there is no "intel" that is going to get back to the gunman. The only thing he might see, is that he's not going to get away with anything.

Likewise refusing to release the number of hostages remaining, or confirming there is only 1 gunman is just totally ludicrous. 5 hostages has escaped, but the police won't even admit they escaped, or tell us what they have said.

Sorry, the stupidity of police holding back information is ridiculous.

Same as them investigating crimes, then releasing photos of suspects 3 months later and expecting that would help anyone. If they'd release the information straight away, things would be resolved a lot quicker.

Likewise, please explain what at least 5 ambulances are parked on Macquarie street doing nothing, instead of being available for the rest of the population.

Ovation
15th Dec 2014, 08:01
The Police by now would probably have a good idea of who this nutjob is.

There have been five people exit the cafe, all of them running like the clappers which suggests escape rather than release. For a start, they would be subject to intense debriefing so by now there must be a decent description of this person.

It would also be likely that said nutjob will have his mobile phone and turned on, and with modern technology the police will triangulate signals to within a few metres. Once they identify the phones, they identify the owners and then it's a process of elimination.

On the strength of the arabic banner his hostages were forced to display, it's likely there will be a triangulated phone in the name of somebody with an arabic name linked to an address in SW Sydney.

parabellum
15th Dec 2014, 08:25
The police media circus is as ridiculous.

Don't know where you are getting your information from p.j.m. but within half an hour of the two girls coming out it was officially announced that they had escaped, not been released and the police also announced that they had the identity of the kidnapper and that was before anyone escaped. Maybe you just don't like the police?

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 08:26
The Police by now would probably have a good idea of who this nutjob is.

They have known for a long time, they've been backtracking webcam footage all day, the press even slipped up at one point and said they knew his name AND his identity (I just shook my head at that statement from the press - that was exactly their words!)

video of him was broadcast a number of times earleer in the siege, before the police took away the live video feeds.

http://i.imgur.com/6n7lX1y.jpg

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 08:30
Don't know where you are getting your information from p.j.m. but within half an hour of the two girls coming out it was officially announced that they had escaped

The assistant police commissioner said it at her press conference at 6.30pm (or was it 7.30pm).

She said they would not confirm if the hostages has escaped or had been released.

She also refused to say how many hostages were still being held or if there was only 1 gunman.

This was well and truly after the escaped hostages had been de-breifed.

Sop_Monkey
15th Dec 2014, 08:35
When this is all over and if the perpetrators are taken alive, will the interrogators be allowed to even "yell" or "bang fists on tables" to extract information? God forbid the use of torture!! What about their human rights?!

Oh I forgot, this is happening in Australia, not the UK. Common sense my even prevail after all.

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 08:36
Sorry, the stupidity of police holding back information is ridiculous.

I'm wondering if from the tone of you judgment of police actions you would support to stance of another apparent anti police poster.

All the police cars started to turn up, and undercover police came running at everyone saying 'Clear the area immediately, get out',"

That was a comment from the BBC feed, I would imagine that other poster I'm talking about would want to refuse to move until the police justified their actions in an apparent insult to his civil rights.

jolihokistix
15th Dec 2014, 08:42
Hmmm... looks like a typical Sydney bikie gang member. :8

chuks
15th Dec 2014, 09:42
Not to be boring, but there are plenty of "decent, civilised folk" who practice Islam.

The rest of us, non-Muslims, who are also that way inclined, towards also being decent, etc., might not want to see "violent attacks against Muslim targets" and the suspension of due process. What you envision there, well, it sounds an awful lot like Kristallnacht!

Check out how many people across the world practice Islam. That's a lot of people, when at a guess most of them are not murderous fanatics. In fact, the fanatics would be happy for us to think them typical, righteous Muslims, when they clearly are not.

The idea of calling up a counter-force of anti-Islamic fanatics who should go around dealing out "rough justice" to anyone they think might be a Muslim, is a stupid and dangerous idea.

Sop_Monkey
15th Dec 2014, 09:49
Agree with you John on this one. However I think, due to the politician's we have left it too late. 100 years? I do admire your optimism. At this rate I give it 30 years as those in power don't have the b***s to tackle this threat at the very root cause and head on.

cattletruck
15th Dec 2014, 09:53
So I switch on the box and tune into the ABC weather. When that finished another show started and they were playing this "evil/werdo" music over their narrative so I switched the telly off.

The meedja will shamelessly feast well over this one, and I really hope the police diffuse the situation soon without any more drama.

Sop_Monkey
15th Dec 2014, 09:54
Chuks. All good stuff in theory of course but it's not working is it.

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 10:07
Chuks. All good stuff in theory of course but it's not working is it.

No its not, but we don't necessarily need to go to extreme measures. The Islamic community is no different to any other, it has a distribution of values, It also follows the same behavioral traits as others.

Basically we are no longer the societies we where when we integrated other cultures, and arguably the Islamic one is a lot harder to do then the others, hence its a double wammy.

At the moment we basically use the same flawed policies as we have to all the other minority situations. In effect they need a good combination of carrot and stick. In effect they are just getting to much carrot, though political correctness will have you believe otherwise.

tony draper
15th Dec 2014, 10:11
This lady has the right of it,the peaceful majority dont mean squat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI74lOgfxk4

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 10:11
Adherence to Islam should be made illegal, and special paramilitary units formed to catch and punish adherents.

Your having a wind up aren't you:D

bugged on the right
15th Dec 2014, 10:19
He may be described as a lone nutjob, fruit loop, solitary deranged individual, call him what you like but Australia, like the UK has imported thousands of lone nutjobs, fruit loops and solitary deranged individuals, all in the name of encouraging what the left calls diversity. The ideas of Islam are so far opposite the ideas of most Australians that the very notion of importing so many of them and allowing them to propagate their vicious, festering concepts is an insult to the country. The only reason these people were allowed into the country is because they would supply an endless conveyer belt of benefit dependent Labor voters.

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2014, 10:19
Well, there was a time when Roman Catholicism was proscribed.

Spotlight
15th Dec 2014, 10:26
Looking at the picture, it's possibly the fellow with Aus citizenship who was locked up in Gitmo. Been suing us ever since, can't recall the name at the mo!

sitigeltfel
15th Dec 2014, 10:32
Well, there was a time when Roman Catholicism was proscribed.

They also used be-headings as an instrument of terror, but only after subjecting their victims to hanging, drawing and quartering. As a warm up act they had many other torture methods, all done in the service of God! All religions have their "nut-jobs" because religious belief is based on a delusion. It's just that some of the believers are loopier than their fellows.

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 11:00
All religions have their "nut-jobs" because religious belief is based on a delusion. It's just that some of the believers are loopier than their fellows.

And there aren't any atheist nut jobs or atrocities committed that has had nothing to do with religion?

It is impossible for a Muslim to be 'moderate'. It is incompatible with 21st Century morality.

What your saying is there is no Muslims who suck p!ss try and get laid as much as possible etc. That will come to a surpise to a few I know?

chuks
15th Dec 2014, 11:30
I have had people down the back of the bus in Nigeria who looked exactly like Osama bin Laden when he was dressed up in style, in a nice clean thawb and all. They were perfectly nice people from Oman, as it happened, but it reads here as if I should never have let them near my aircraft, just in case.

I have flown with Muslims from Algeria as my First Officers, when I trusted them not to try and kill us all, same as they did me. Then they rewarded my trust by doing their professional best. Other Muslims there supplied my fuel, gave me weather reports, accepted my flight plans ... you name it, they did it, and usually with a smile if I smiled first and used my halting French to say something such as "Good day," or "Please." "Wa aleikum salamat," was another one that went down well, as the standard reply to the usual greeting in Arabic, "Salaam aleikum," "Peace be with thee."

One Algerian Muslim friend, a security guard, even arranged a surprise 60th birthday party for me way out in the desert, complete with a cake featuring a tiny airplane on a landing strip! Then I ate a piece of that cake, even though it might well have been poisoned to kill off the kafir.

I went to London Metropolitan University and had a Muslim, I think, as my study mate for the ATPL writtens; he handled the book questions better than me, but I handled the practical questions better than him, so that we both got very good marks by coöperating in that way. Today he flies for MEA.

Even here in the village in Lutheran North Germany, I have one old boy who likes to chat with me when we cross paths out looking at the River Weser flowing past, another Muslim about my age. It's an odd thing, but I think he's being friendly doing that.

All these people, if they want to pray to Allah and honor the Prophet, why should I have a problem with that? Most of the people I do have a problem with are the local semi-pagans, the German neo-Nazis. They hate and fear the Muslims as much as anyone here, but they hate and fear me too! Taking all this as a whole then, I will mostly side with the Muslims, thank you very much!

Checkboard
15th Dec 2014, 11:31
The important thing to remember is that the Hoddle street shooting was a "white" guy, the Queen St shooting was a "white" guy, the Comanchero bikie wars were "white" guys. In the USA the first World Trade centre bombing was a "white" guy and so was the Oklahoma bombing.



You can see that every group has its percentage of nutters and that this guy happens to be Moslem is really irrelevant. Looking at the stats, you're probably safer sitting next to a Muslim than a "white" nutter.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 11:45
The USA the first World Trade centre bombing was a "white" guy....

You referring to the Truck Bomb in the Parking Deck of the WTC are you?

If you are then you are quite mistaken about the Bombers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-1993-world-trade-center-bombers-where-are-they-now/

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 11:54
Hempy wrote:

Lone nutjob arrested. Move along.

I believe this statement is classified along the lines of "utter bullshit."

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 11:56
meadowrun wrote:

If you can take a pic of a person, you can take a shot.

That's correct. Red dot on target and identified.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th Dec 2014, 12:03
Checkboard- B.Bob's right, and that's a terrible selection of examples which doesn't prove your point at all. There are one likely mental breakdown, one nut job, one bunch of simple criminals, one by a group of ME muslim terrorists for religious reasons, and one revenge attack for two pretty lamentable examples (Ruby Ridge, Waco) of Government behaviour. 'White' is not a religion.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 12:15
checkboard wrote:

In the USA the first World Trade centre bombing was a "white" guyAhhhh, WRONG. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Unless, of course, you consider him a "white" guy. I don't.

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/ramzi.yousef.jpg

Shaggy Sheep Driver
15th Dec 2014, 12:34
Black flag with white Arabic writing reading "There is no God but Allah" and "Mohammed is the messenger of God" waved behind the hostages

Well, the first 4 words are correct. Pity about the rest. Bluddy relgionists! :(

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 12:41
We also have to remember that Ramzi's Uncle....KSM funded the first bomb attack and assisted in the Bombing, later beheaded Danny Pearl, before Masterminding the WTC Attacks on 9-11. The Nephew is an inmate at the Federal Super Max Prison in Colorado doing a natural life Sentence and Uncle is in Gitmo where he is facing the Death Penalty.

So much for the "White Boy" Nutcase proposition.

Throw in the Blind Sheik and the Palestinian thing and you have a lovely mix of Religion and Politics combined with ancient hatred and tribalism.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 13:05
portvale:

Thanks for the link. If this is indeed the work of Haron then it just proves yet another point that singing Kumbaya with those who wish to do us harm, never quite works out well in the end.

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2014, 13:09
So, whilst we have the possible risk of explosives, we have, apparently, one rebel causing the lockdown of Sydney's CBD "For as long as it takes".

The Police acknowledge that the suspect is 'known to them' - so, is he really that dangerous?

SOPS
15th Dec 2014, 13:10
It him alright. Being reported all of the media now.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th Dec 2014, 13:12
Perhaps Mr Haron is keen to be returned to his native nation of Iran?

The Canadian Government is currently reportedly contemplating only accepting refugees from Syria who are from "minority religious groups". I expect this incident will weigh on their deliberations.

Canada considers prioritizing religious minorities in Syria refugee resettlement - Politics - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-considers-prioritizing-religious-minorities-in-syria-refugee-resettlement-1.2870916)

meadowrun
15th Dec 2014, 13:15
So, what is the solution to the radical, extremist Muslim problem in countries in the West?

We are not going to let ISIS run rampant.
We are not going to let Al-Queda run rampant.

Sooner or later we will be far, far less tolerant of the possibilities of and actual lone-wolf attacks in our civilized societies. If not by our governments now, soon, by the people forcing some kind of action from them. Things as they are will not be tolerated for much longer.

And what kind of action is possible? There is an established threat to society.

Muslims can’t be deported out en-mass.
There is a growing risk of vigilante actions.
The status quo of cracking down on threats as they are discovered is not working well.

I fear we are headed towards encompassing investigations of the entire Muslim population and then segregation of those exhibiting any possible risk or offering them an option to leave the country. In other words, leave or be interned until you get sorted out. Not a good solution but I can clearly see a dead-end for other options on the near horizon.

Now, back to Martin Place...

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 13:19
meadowrun:

So, what is the solution to the radical, extremist Muslim problem in countries in the West?

Termination with extreme prejudice.

SOPS
15th Dec 2014, 13:23
How can he be possibly out on bail? The system is broken.

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2014, 13:38
So, can his 'asylum' be revoked?

skydiver69
15th Dec 2014, 13:38
The police media circus is as ridiculous.

Holding back live video feeds is akin stupidity, there is no "intel" that is going to get back to the gunman. The only thing he might see, is that he's not going to get away with anything.

Yeah right there is no way any intel could get back to him, I mean its not as if he might have internet access, a radio or even a TV in the coffee shop...:ugh:

Fox3WheresMyBanana
15th Dec 2014, 13:40
If a more organised group were planning something in Australia, a live video feed would be very useful, I would think.

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2014, 13:43
He is said to be carrying an iPad.

Sheikh Haron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Haron).

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 13:52
The Police acknowledge that the suspect is 'known to them' - so, is he really that dangerous?

An Islamic Nutter carrying a Shotgun holding a bunch of Hostages inside a Coffee Shop....and you ask if he is "really that dangerous"?

Errrrr....to the hostages he is damned dangerous don't you think?

His Deceased Ex-Wife might consider him dangerous.


Is this the Guy?


https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10461464_999214696758940_8565420408850285677_n.jpg?oh=c1c672 34f1efe787725b6cb1f19ab13f&oe=55008961&__gda__=1426882493_b69564245055eec4823fa2ca80693558

sitigeltfel
15th Dec 2014, 14:06
What do you have to do in Australia before the authorities think you need locking up?

Clare Prop
15th Dec 2014, 14:11
It defies belief that some hand-wringer let him out on bail :eek:

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 14:15
Lone nutjob arrested. Move along.

Still holding to that advice are you Hempy?

Torque Tonight
15th Dec 2014, 14:22
Looks like it's all kicking off right now. Gotta say I'm getting tired of this kind of stuff.:mad:

SOPS
15th Dec 2014, 14:24
Shots being fired, some hostages have escaped. 1 hostage reported wounded. More to come

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 14:34
Looked like at least three Hostages wounded or killed from the live video. One was carried off by Officers, one had CPR being performed, and a third was loaded onto a gurney with no treatment being performed.

Very sad day when innocent people lose their lives to such violence.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 14:35
According to several media outlets here in the U.S. for whatever that's worth, the local Aussie police are "storming the cafe'". Any element of truth to this?

SOPS
15th Dec 2014, 14:40
It has been stormed rh rg. No word yet on fate of the gun man. Bomb disposal squad now going into the cafe.

No word on total injuries yet.

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 14:42
Lone nutter then - no particular relevance to Islam.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 14:46
You are living in denial, Chips.

The hostage taker is all wrapped up on Islamic accoutrements and thinking.

Wasn't the Islamic Flag a small hint?

That fact he was a Swami or whatever they called themselves also a hint?

I suppose if he issued a Fatwa of some kind that all this hostage taking is kosher somehow?

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 14:50
One lone nutter, not part of any Islamic world plot.

Stop seeing conspiracy where there is none.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 15:01
What conspiracy?

We are talking about mindset, religious beliefs, political agendas.

You cannot separate Islam from this Hostage taking.

Stick to facts, Chips....like Sgt. Friday said so often...."The Facts Ma'am...just the Facts!".

Curious Pax
15th Dec 2014, 15:04
You are living in denial, Chips.

The hostage taker is all wrapped up on Islamic accoutrements and thinking.

Wasn't the Islamic Flag a small hint?



The flag was a hint, but not how you mean. The original one he had was basically the Saudi flag, but black instead of green. When he realised (maybe heard in the media!) that it wasn't the ISIS one he then demanded the right one. If it wasn't for him being armed it would be the funniest sketch based on events in the Middle East since the Life of Brian!

Heard his former lawyer interviewed just now, who in nearly so many words called him an unpleasant nutter, but not someone affiliated with any significant organisation.

If you want to get anyone to take your warnings seriously you really do need to try and understand the difference between a nutter using Islam as a convenient flag to try and gain credibility, and those organisations that we do legitimately need to confront. Otherwise you just come across as a paranoid bigot (shurely not!!)

Torque Tonight
15th Dec 2014, 15:06
Lone nutter then - no particular relevance to Islam.

Can you possibly believe what you write or are you just trolling? Sarcasm: When this first started I guessed it was those troublesome Buddhists, Anglicans, Women's Institute types kicking off again. Imagine my surprise to see the Islamic flag, jihadist headband, etc etc etc:ugh:

Yes, he could well be a lone wolf rather than a more organised attack. But they sure do produce a lot of lone wolves, don't they. Like I said, getting tired of this s--t.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 15:12
an unpleasant nutter, but not someone affiliated with any significant organisation.

Bullshit. Radical Islam is an ideology as well as a religious bend. As an ideology it not only fully supports such so-called lone-wolf operations but calls for them as a way of inflicting "pain" on the West. So although he might not be a card-carrying member of IS or AQ or all the other nut jobs, he subscribes to an ideology those organizations espouse and support.

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 15:13
Trolling? No. One nutter takes hostages and the usual suspects start blaming Islam in general - one person on here wants to round up all Moslems, using paramilitary groups if necessary. Why is he treated as sensible and me as trolling???

This man is known to Police, has a criminal record and was in court recently. Just because he waves a flag doesn't make him a one man Isis spearhead.

You nutters are seeing bogey men under every bed, and are a big part of the fear and hatred it breeds.

Example - there is a picture doing the round on Farcebook of a note from a housing association telling a tenant to take down an England flag. "Save our country" scream the comments... the truth is that whatever flag it was, the resident is not allowed to cover the balcony or window in mess, it will be in his tenancy agreement'

Calm down FFS

Torque Tonight
15th Dec 2014, 15:18
'Calm down'? This (and all the other routine atrocities) is something that anyone in their right mind should be seriously p----d off about, regardless of their own religion.

I suspect you could appear in an ISIS video getting your head sawn off and you last words would be 'This is an isolated event. Don't blame Islamist extremists, you racists!'

wings folded
15th Dec 2014, 15:29
I suppose if he issued a Fatwa of some kind that all this hostage taking is kosher somehow?

The notion that a Fatwa can be kosher fills me with admiration at the inventiveness of the writer.

Just as much as his invention of laws in the UK which do not exist.

(Still no response on the torture thread...)

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 15:31
No Torque, if I was in an ISIS video then ISIS would be to blame. If I was in a video made by a lone nutter with no known ties to ISIS then I would blame the lone nutter.

There are religious zealots protesting outside an abortion clinic in Ealing - should we blame the whole of christianity for their actions?

Kindly show me where the Koran supports Jihad, and then you can change my stance...

Torque Tonight
15th Dec 2014, 15:39
Those anti-abortionists: how much genocide, ethnic cleansing, hostage taking, execution etc etc have they carried out?

Perhaps your point about the Koran would be better aimed at adherents to that book, particularly those who kill in its name, rather than me.

So this fella may not have been on a permanent, full time contract with Isis or Al Q, but who is pulling the strings and motivation and encouraging these attacks. I think you're scared to admit that there might be some sort of an issue here.

For isolated, random events there does seem to be remarkable regularity and consistency.

chuks
15th Dec 2014, 15:43
Anders Behring Breivik was a self-styled warrior for Christianity, really a Norwegian lunatic who murdered a lot of people, mostly children. You didn't see people freaking out about that, though; it was correctly called an isolated incident, albeit a very bloody one.

Is it correct to connect this fresh incident with such others as the gun attack in Canada and the machete attack in Woolwich, since they all share some loose connection with Islam? It's not as if these attackers collaborated, is it? That they used a perverted version of Islam, well, Breivik used a perverted version of Christianity. How much should one make of that?

Curious Pax
15th Dec 2014, 15:43
Bullshit. Radical Islam is an ideology as well as a religious bend. As an ideology it not only fully supports such so-called lone-wolf operations but calls for them as a way of inflicting "pain" on the West. So although he might not be a card-carrying member of IS or AQ or all the other nut jobs, he subscribes to an ideology those organizations espouse and support.

What you say about ISIS etc encouraging lone wolf ops may well be true (and regardless I doubt they would try and discourage any nutter from doing this sort of stuff as it saves them the trouble). BUT - I was under the impression that one of the first rules of getting the upper hand in a conflict was to know your enemy. There seem to be a lot of contributers who are determindly avoiding that!

A thought from history. The US fought in the Second World War on a number of fronts successfully. Do you think they would have been more or less successful if they had used exactly the same strategy against the Germans in Western Europe as they did against the Japanese in the Far East?

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 15:49
Those anti-abortionists: how much genocide, ethnic cleansing, hostage taking, execution etc etc have they carried out?
Excuse me? I asked if the whole of Christianity should be blamed for their actions, never mentioned that other stuff. Try answering the question actually asked.

Perhaps your point about the Koran would be better aimed at adherents to that book, particularly those who kill in its name, rather than me.
I guess that translates to "I know nothing about Islam, but I'll keep pontificating about it"

One. Lone. Nutter.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 15:52
Chuks dear boy,

As much as I would enjoy agreeing with you I have to consider the sheer numbers of such events using the filter of Islamic/Jihadi and Christian/Evangelical when I ascribe values to the numbers I come up with.

As terrible as the Norwegian fellow's actions were...and perhaps adding in Tim McVeigh (who you know was quickly killed by his government) those wearing Crosses as compared to those who swear off Pork BBQ seem to be in very few numbers and figure in very few incidents.

We cannot say that for those who follow that Mo fella's teachings.

Granted there are Billions of followers of Islam and percentage wise not very many that are causing the problems but when compared to the Christian population of the World and the numbers of them that do these things....there just simply is no comparison.

That is the sad fact of Life. We are plagued by Islamic Nut Cases and not Christian Nut Cases.

maliyahsdad2
15th Dec 2014, 15:55
Gunman and one hostage killed according to latest reports.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 15:57
Mr. Chips wrote:

There are religious zealots protesting outside an abortion clinic in Ealing - should we blame the whole of christianity for their actions?

Are these religious zealots cutting off other peoples' heads? Crucifying them on crosses? Do they have bombs strapped to their bodies, ready to blow up the abortion clinics? Do they fly planes into skyscrapers? Do they attempt to blow up airliners?

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 15:58
RGBrock RTFQ

Torque Tonight
15th Dec 2014, 16:02
Chips me old,

You will note that I have not pointed the finger at all Muslims, I have specifically referred to Islamists and militants, so the point you are trying to make is irrelevant.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 16:28
So very tragic to hear of the loss of a Hostage's Life and no doubt some others wounded or injured.

As to the Hostage Taker....that is a fitting end to his repeated violent attacks against others.

mountainviews
15th Dec 2014, 17:10
I would rather the offender was taken alive. Todays martyr only acts to encourage and inspire tomorrows terrorist. Taken alive and made to stand powerless in a court is the far greater humiliation.

In regards to the lenient NSW bail laws that permitted him to be in the community while on charges for the killing of his ex-wife, I can only say we have I hope that we will see the laws changed very quickly.

So far as the 'lone wolf' nature of the offender, it would appear to me that MO of the radical islamic groups is to encourage these type of people. A single person planning this type of action would have to be very difficult to detect.

I hope the authorities can use the meta data laws recently proposed to review every person that has been in regular contact with this guy.

OFSO
15th Dec 2014, 17:19
to review every person that has been in regular contact with this guy.

They won't. It would infringe their "rights". Which needless to say are the same "rights" they want to deprive the rest of us from having.

tony draper
15th Dec 2014, 17:26
I would be fitting mosque blades to about a hundred bulldozers right now,
That strange squelshing sound you hear is the sound of thousands of heads being reinserted back into arses after a brief glimps of the outside world through their rose tinted spectacles

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 17:28
Tony D wrote:

I would be fitting mosque blades to about a hundred bulldozers right now

:D:D:D:ok::ok::ok:

Fareastdriver
15th Dec 2014, 17:45
A fitting end to the gunman would to be to grind him up and mix him with pig feed.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 17:47
Fareastdriver wrote:

A fitting end to the gunman would to be to grind him up and mix him with pig feed.

:ok::D

Or.....

http://www.logoi.com/pastimages/img/firing_squad_2.jpg

Fareastdriver
15th Dec 2014, 17:59
No, he would go to heaven that way. His forteen willing virgins would not be so willing after he has been through a pig's gut.

wings folded
15th Dec 2014, 18:01
Propping up a corpse to shoot it again seems a bit bizarre...

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 18:01
Drapes,

I would highly recommend the Caterpillar D-11R Dozer for your project!:ok:

Fareastdriver
15th Dec 2014, 18:02
Especially for the two behind him looking through the window.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 18:03
Propping up a corpse to shoot it again seems a bit bizarre...

Not really. You have to ensure the target is dead. :ok:

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 18:05
Fareastdriver wrote:

No, he would go to heaven that way. His forteen willing virgins would not be so willing after he has been through a pig's gut.

72 virgins, not 14. However, what is not commonly known to the Valhalla travelers is that the 72 virgins are all boars. :ok::}:E

BruisedCrab
15th Dec 2014, 18:19
the 72 virgins are all boars

You've met my ex-wife then?

TWT
15th Dec 2014, 18:36
They stormed the cafe 8 seconds after a police sniper saw the perp shoot a hostage through his scope and called it in to the command centre.

con-pilot
15th Dec 2014, 18:40
They stormed the cafe 8 seconds after a police sniper saw the perp shoot a hostage through his scope and radioed it in to the command centre.

Hopefully the police sniper had clearance to take out the terrorist when he saw him shoot the hostage.

wings folded
15th Dec 2014, 18:44
Not really. You have to ensure the target is dead.
My basic first aid training would suffice to establish that detail. A qualified medical practitioner would be even more beleivable, and they are readily available.

Shooting a corpse to be sure it is dead strikes me as sick. But a lot of what happens nowadays strikes me as sick.

What legacy are we leaving for our children's children?

con-pilot
15th Dec 2014, 18:49
What legacy are we leaving for our children's children?

Another world war based on religion?

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 18:51
Interesting response from Australia, no mention of destroying Mosques....

the aftermath of the hostage crisis in downtown Sydney, Australians are showing the world they're not caving to racism or Islamophobia.

On Monday, an armed gunman stormed a cafe in Martin Place, entering a tense standoff with police. After the hostage-taker displayed an Islamic flag in the cafe's window, many of Australia's Muslims are understandably anxious about facing retribution.

But instead, Australians have banded together on Twitter with #IllRideWithYou, a hashtag showing their solidarity with fellow countrymen scared of being attacked on public transportation.
#I'll ride with you (http://mic.com/articles/106442/australians-show-the-world-exactly-how-to-respond-to-terrorism-with-ill-ride-with-you)

FakePilot
15th Dec 2014, 19:00
Shooting a corpse to be sure it is dead strikes me as sick. But a lot of what happens nowadays strikes me as sick.


There's lots of books from those that served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Several accounts contain "dead" (with 8 holes!?!?) bad guys waiting until someone gets close. Fortunately in these cases someone spotted it first but after that standard practice - "two to the head". Yes its sick. :(

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 19:00
Hopefully it was tactical reasons that kept the Sniper from immediately shooting the Killer rather than the ROE's.

Once it was determined there was exactly ONE Hostage Taker and his Identity was positively made and he was was tracked by the Sniper(s), so there was no confusion as to which person was in fact the Hostage Taker, I would like to think LAPD Rules would have been used as compared to NYPD Rules.

wings folded
15th Dec 2014, 19:05
Another world war based on religion?
I am afraid you could be correct, con-pilot, but I think if you substitute "dogma" for "religion" you get nearer the truth.

It depends a bit on what you consider to be "world wars".

The crusades, the Cathar persecutions, were carried out under the emblem of religion, but the two "world wars" we think of today, although having a religious/ethnic dimension, were more territorial than dogmatic.

Would you agree?

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 19:05
Mixed media reports, but seems a number of hostages escaped at 2am this morning, and them police then stormed the cafe. 2 hostages are dead, along with the gunman, and a number of injured. I sincerely hope the police do not have blood on their hands over this incident (as was intimated by the press reports). from the media "we can not confirm the 2 dead were caught in crossfire".

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 19:07
Hopefully it was tactical reasons that kept the Sniper from immediately shooting the Killer rather than the ROE's.

Once it was determined there was exactly ONE Hostage Taker and his Identity was positively made and he was was tracked by the Sniper(s), so there was no confusion as to which person was in fact the Hostage Taker, I would like to think LAPD Rules would have been used as compared to NYPD Rules.

I think many people want to know why the gunman was not taken out by a sniper yesterday, and all the bloodshed avoided. The police knew he was alone, they had plenty of clear shots, and by their inaction 2 innocent victims are now dead.

TWT
15th Dec 2014, 19:08
I would like to think LAPD Rules would have been used as compared to NYPD Rules

Neither.NSWPF rules

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 19:11
They stormed the cafe 8 seconds after a police sniper saw the perp shoot a hostage through his scope and called it in to the command centre.

Will be interesting to see if this is what really happened. If the sniper had a clear view of the perp, why wasn't he taken out much earlier?

TWT
15th Dec 2014, 19:17
p.j.m : perhaps you should have offered the benefits of your vast experience in hostage situations to the NSW police.

My quote is from Chris Reason,a Channel 7 journo,who was nearby to the sniper in the Channel 7 building across the street.I know Mr.Reason from first hand experience to be one of the very rare breed of ethical journalists.

Mr Optimistic
15th Dec 2014, 19:20
This guy does look like a lone nutter with a grudge. Unfortunately the vast majority aren't nutters. To them it must all seem like a re-run of the crusades but with CE4 and without the chivalry.

FakePilot
15th Dec 2014, 19:21
Why didn't the sniper shoot first?

What if the sniper shot hadn't killed the perp and instead alerted him?
Then it would be "Why did the police trigger the killing!?!"

Of course on TV the shot always hits and always kills.

There's alot of scenarios where the sniper starting it things could end up very bad. Then everyone would blame the police.

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2014, 19:23
If the sniper had a clear view of the perp, why wasn't he taken out much earlier?
On what basis?

At that stage the guy hadn't committed anything justifying such action.

His part in the death of his ex-wife has not been tested in court (and, now never will be).

To shoot the hostage-taker he would have to be challenged and given the opportunity to lay down his weapon and surrender.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 19:29
TWT,

The reference to LAPD/NYPD to the difference in the two Department's philosophies re ending Hostage Situations.

NYPD originally sought to end all Hostage Situations peacefully.

LAPD sought to maneuver the Hostage Takers into a position where they could be shot dead.

I suppose I should have said I wished the Oz Rules had incorporated the LAPD Rule.

The Australian Police did an excellent job in dealing with this situation. They tried to deal with it peacefully and once the Gunman escalated the action they responded in a very timely manner and neutralized the Gunman.

All the Monday Afternoon Quarterbacks can start finding fault but the Police and other Emergency Services deserve a lot of credit for what they did.

No doubt there shall be an After Action Analysis of the event and there will be some review of policies and decisions made during the Stand Off.

The Police have earned their good reputation for Professionalism.

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 19:29
This guy does look like a lone nutter with a grudge. Unfortunately the vast majority aren't nutters. To them it must all seem like a re-run of the crusades but with CE4 and without the chivalry.

he was an Iranian refugee, allowed into the country by the labor government with a long history of criminal offenses including sexual assault and murdering his wife. Man Haron Monis, Sydney siege gunman, dead | Martin Place Lindt cafe (http://www.news.com.au/national/martin-place-cafe-siege-man-haron-monis-named-as-gunman/story-fncynjr2-1227157492618)

p.j.m
15th Dec 2014, 19:30
On what basis?

At that stage the guy hadn't committed anything justifying such action.



other than taking 14 or so hostages and holding them at gunpoint you mean?

M.Mouse
15th Dec 2014, 19:30
At that stage the guy hadn't committed anything justifying such action.

Some might say that taking people hostage at gunpoint would be plenty of justification to shoot and kill the hostage taker.

rgbrock1
15th Dec 2014, 19:32
On what basis?

At that stage the guy hadn't committed anything justifying such action.

On what basis? surely you jest? He didn't keep the people in the cafe for a game of Monopoly, I'm sure. As soon as he took those people hostage he earned the right to be shot dead.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 19:41
This is why Sniper's prefer not to shoot through Glass Windows and Doors.

This shoot out resulted from a Bank Robbery gone wrong where four Gunmen took Hostages. The Sniper takes a Shot but only shatters the Glass Door then the Gunmen start shooting lots of Hostages.

It did open up access to the building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0t8FGR0QMg


I just love those who tell us the Perp had not done anything to get himself shot!

The instant he pulled out that Shot Gun threatened anyone by word or action, he forfeited his right to life.

Let's not confuse ourselves as to either the Law or just plain ol' commonsense.

Had there been a Hostage carrying a Concealed Firearm (at least in my State and Country), the Gun Man could have been shot very dead and the Hostage would be home free, safe and sound. The Legal Authorities would make him out to be a Hero for doing it.

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2014, 19:45
How easy would it have been for the hostage-taker to get hold of his weapon?

Could it have been legally-acquired?

(I do not know the laws in Oz)

This is not to justify his actions in any way - I'm just curious.

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 19:48
Yes very interesting, that their first instinct was to side with the cult that is at the root of this, and countless other acts of terror.

The hostages and victims were obviously far down the pecking order when the twitters decided to offer their compassion and concern.

Wow, some people have such entrenched views that they are beyond help. Did you read what was written by genuine Aussies? A girl on public transport removed her scarf to avoid being identified as a muslim. She didn't take any hostages, she has never beheaded anyone but people like you Siti seem to think that she should be victimised for the crime of one lone nutter, and terrorists half a world away. Luckily the Australians have some sense (and I totally fail to see how any of this shows a lack of compassion for the victims)

All aboard the lynch mob.....

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 19:58
Chips,

There is no Lynch Mob and you know it.

Well, except by some who want to paint anyone who disagrees with their own peculiar notions about Islam as being Bigots, Racists, and downright horrible people.

CAIR has been very active in rolling out that rubbish in their effort to play the "Victim" Card and somehow try to manipulate the system.

The dead Gunman in Sydney is case in point for that if you look at his background and Criminal Record....with any objectivity anyway.

He went outside the acceptable standards of a Civilized Society and has paid the price for that. He should have stuck to writing obscene Letters as this particular bit of work doesn't seem to have suited him very well.

con-pilot
15th Dec 2014, 20:02
I am afraid you could be correct, con-pilot, but I think if you substitute "dogma" for "religion" you get nearer the truth.

It depends a bit on what you consider to be "world wars".

The crusades, the Cathar persecutions, were carried out under the emblem of religion, but the two "world wars" we think of today, although having a religious/ethnic dimension, were more territorial than dogmatic.

Would you agree?

Yup. :ok:

However, the next "World War" very well could be a war of the Islam faith against the non-Islamic nations. Hopefully the moderate Muslims will be able to gain control of their religion and end the terrorism.

wings folded
15th Dec 2014, 20:09
nobody of sound mind could disagree with that.

ramble on
15th Dec 2014, 20:19
Australia has changed forever.

I was in Melbourne, Australia on the day of the famous Melbourne Cup horse race - Tuesday 4 November.

The city was pretty well empty - it was a public holiday.

As I strolled through the abnormally peaceful and quiet city I ran into what I estimate to be 10,000 Muslim men marching through the city - there were no women or children marching but some were drifting along the sides as followers.

They were chanting and beating their chests and carrying arabic banners - not one word or anouncement in English. I had no idea as an observer what they were marching for or about.

I tried to find out and it turned out that it was a march of Shia Muslims for Ashura.

It was clear to me that in the march were some groups who were very strident, very agitated and very angry and bringing that anger to Australia.

Also drifting along the sides trying to be uneen were many tough young minders who were ready to jump into action in the event of any threat or protest against this march.

A natural result to any local community not familiar with this is fear and resentment.

This is not a sign of successful, integrating immigration policy.

Mr Chips
15th Dec 2014, 20:20
There is no Lynch Mob and you know it.

Yes very interesting, that their first instinct was to side with the cult that is at the root of this, and countless other acts of terror.
Well there's a surprise. It's those peace-loving Muslims again. How many more incidents like this need to happen before people accept that we are in a war, and should be taking all necessary measures to protect ourselves?
I just can't keep from imagining how peaceful this planet would be without Islam...
Australians finally realize that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.
We can only hope that we are getting close to a tipping point in western societies where decent, civilised folk lose patience once and for all with Islam. We will see violent attacks against Muslim targets, and hopefully governments will enact laws to enable the confiscation of property and the incarceration of suspects indefinitely and without trial for the protection of society.
Adherence to Islam should be made illegal, and special paramilitary units formed to catch and punish adherents.
I fear we are headed towards encompassing investigations of the entire Muslim population and then segregation of those exhibiting any possible risk or offering them an option to leave the country. In other words, leave or be interned until you get sorted out.
I would be fitting mosque blades to about a hundred bulldozers right now,

Yeah, no sign of a lynch mob......

Noyade
15th Dec 2014, 20:24
mickjoebill. Post #9...
oz has lost its innocence..G'day Mick. I forget the author's name, but it was a book devoted to the Graeme Thorne kidnapping of 1960. Just his opinion of course, but he felt that's when we lost it...

obgraham
15th Dec 2014, 20:26
Typical of the times -- hardly an hour or two has gone by since the resolution of this attack, and a bunch of people are already out criticizing the police. Or claimin g it was police that killed hostages.

There's only one simple truth. The perpetrator killed the hostages. If he hadn't shown up they would all be alive and well.

I'll direct my anger to that scumbag, and the people who trained him to think that way. All of whom, I'm sure, will turn out to be Islamists.

Ogre
15th Dec 2014, 20:28
Regarding the many comments on "why didn't the sniper shoot the guy", from what I read many years ago the chances of shooting someone through a window are dimished by the fact that the round may be deflected going through the glass. I did read somewhere (may have been fiction though) about snipers in teams of two both firing at the target. The intent was that the first round would break the glass and the second would be unimpeded.

Could be wrong though, but I would suggest that unless they knew for definate there were no explosives on a dead-man switch the last thing the police wanted to do was kill the guy from a distance whilst there were still hostages around.

My thoughts are with the Police and their command structure, everything they did will now be scrutinised in great detail over lengthy periods of time, and they will be asked to justify everything. Good work Gents.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 20:34
Con,

ISIS is claiming territory, and others have done the same suggesting Muslim Lands are being occupied by Kaffirs and Infidels.

Depending upon where they draw the boundary lines and with a clear promise to stay on their side of them, I might endorse the notion of granting them what they want to claim as their private Turf and in return make them an iron clad promise nothing from the Western World would cross those boundaries.

No money, no food, no Consumer goods, no Foreign Aid, no Weapons, nothing manufactured in the Western World, and no Licenses to produce anything of ours either. No ships, airplanes, trucks, cars....nothing.

Likewise....no oil, no Dates, nothing they grow, build, sell, or create could cross on the way out. No Tourism, no coming West to gain an Education.

I would give them all our Detainees, Prisoners, 7-11 Store Owners, and Taxi Drivers.

I wonder if we could get such a deal done tomorrow?

mikedreamer787
15th Dec 2014, 20:39
BB throw in all the stinking ratbag socialists
and greenies as beheading fodder and I will
readily agree with your idea.

G-CPTN
15th Dec 2014, 21:14
Nine News is reporting a man was wrestling a gun from gunman Man Haron Monis when he was killed.It is understood the 34-year-old man decided to take action when the hostage-taker begun to doze off after the siege had been ongoing for 17 hours.


I did wonder if that was what catalysed the armed response.


From:- Sydney siege: Man Haron Monis killed by police | Gunman dead (http://www.news.com.au/national/martin-place-cafe-siege-police-storm-cafe-and-kill-gunman-sheik-man-haron-monis/story-fncynjr2-1227157498633)

con-pilot
15th Dec 2014, 21:26
Regarding the many comments on "why didn't the sniper shoot the guy", from what I read many years ago the chances of shooting someone through a window are dimished by the fact that the round may be deflected going through the glass. I did read somewhere (may have been fiction though) about snipers in teams of two both firing at the target. The intent was that the first round would break the glass and the second would be unimpeded.


I've read that as well. That being said, I think it was in a fictional action, adventure novel.

Hempy
15th Dec 2014, 21:37
BB throw in all the stinking ratbag socialists
and greenies as beheading fodder and I will
readily agree with your idea.

Fairly fundamentalist views there Mike. Some would even call them radically fundamentalist. You seem like a rip-roaring sort of bloke, you and Bob would have fit in beautifully with the Totenkopfverbände crew :ok:

Fantome
15th Dec 2014, 21:46
In Queensland you used to be able to buy a little enamel numberplate modifier to clip on over where it said in one inch letters SUNSHINE STATE so that it now read POLICE STATE

They were banned of course, but in NSW today STATE OF SHOCK would not be totally out of court or context

What the surviving former hostages have to say about the chain of events leading to gunfire will be of crucial interest


and . .. HEAR HEAR Hempy

mikedreamer787
15th Dec 2014, 21:52
radically fundamentalist

That's a popularist media line Mr Hempy, not just in Oz but elsewhere.

Could you explain exactly what 'radically fundamentalist' means in the context of the statement I made in the earlier post please?

tartare
15th Dec 2014, 22:03
More detail coming to light now.
The manager of the cafe was shot and killed as he attempted to wrestle the shottie from the gunman.
The barrister was shot and killed as she attempted to defend her pregnant friend.
There were two pregnant women in the siege.
And the gunman forced hostages to record video messages, which were then posted on the web.

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 22:16
Hempy,

I am not a very bright fellow so I need some help understanding what you meant when you said the following:


....you and Bob would have fit in beautifully with the Totenkopfverbände crew.

Mind explaining that to me please?

I don't understand at all what you refer to by all that.

Pappa Smurf
15th Dec 2014, 22:18
Just imagine if we didn't have media ,most of these things wouldn't happen because the nutter wouldn't be able to show his demands to the world or get other nutters doing copy cat crimes.
Should be a media ban on such things for the reasons above and for getting people worried.

con-pilot
15th Dec 2014, 22:19
I don't understand at all what you refer to by all that.

He is calling you a Nazi.

Fantome
15th Dec 2014, 22:25
Settle down now. . . . don't want you lot sniping amongst yourselves . .. . someone could get hurt

Fantome
15th Dec 2014, 22:40
The great Australian poet Les Murray's poem AN ABSOLUTELY ORDINARY RAINBOW evokes another tragic scene in Martin Place. It is a little masterpiece of nine stanzas . The first two go -

An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow



The word goes round Repins,
the murmur goes round Lorenzinis,
at Tattersalls, men look up from sheets of numbers,
the Stock Exchange scribblers forget the chalk in their hands
and men with bread in their pockets leave the Greek Club:
There's a fellow crying in Martin Place. They can't stop him.


The traffic in George Street is banked up for half a mile
and drained of motion. The crowds are edgy with talk
and more crowds come hurrying. Many run in the back streets
which minutes ago were busy main streets, pointing:
There's a fellow weeping down there. No one can stop him.

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 22:41
He is calling you a Nazi.

Damm calling him a socialist is fighting words:E

con-pilot
15th Dec 2014, 22:59
Damm calling him a socialist is fighting words

Yes, I would think one could be banned for life for that! :E

True fightin' words if I never heard them.


However, as I've not heard them, no problem. :p

Boudreaux Bob
15th Dec 2014, 23:08
Whoa, I never called him a Socialist!

I did suggest his "Move On, Nothing to see!" comment was quite off the mark earlier today.

Why would he call me a Nazi you reckon?

That label would suggest I was a Fascist or worse for some reason.

It was the Muslims under the Mufti and the Baathists that allied themselves with the Fascists as I recall and I sure haven't indicated any leanings that way have I?

I have voiced support of Israel even.

Somehow I am confused on how Hempy arrived at his conclusion that I would be someone that would be happy to associate with a group of folks that committed mass murder and lots of crimes against humanity.

That really is not a very nice thing to say about someone you do not even know and have never met especially when it is baseless and very much a Lie.

Hempy, you care to explain all this?

rh200
15th Dec 2014, 23:18
Whoa, I never called him a Socialist!

Chill Bob, I was taking the p!ss, Nazi's where declared socialists. So the joke was he was calling you a socialist. :p

Frank Arouet
15th Dec 2014, 23:51
Anyone seen David Hicks around Sydney today? He was in every newspaper last week going on about torture and racial/religious discrimination. Same goes for Sarah Sea patrol. Today's fish and chip wraps I suppose.

Captain Sand Dune
15th Dec 2014, 23:53
Man Haron Monis was granted asylum from Iran. He was on bail for accessory to the murder of his ex-wife (his partner at the time actually committed the murder). He was also charged with up to 40 sexual offences, and sending offensive letters to the families of Australian soldiers who had died in active service.
Thank you Sarah Hanson-Young, Christine Milne, Ian Rintoul and the Australian Labor Party for facilitating the entry into Australia of such a wonderful addition to our society.
In the matter of the murder of Monis’ ex-wife, Magistrate Darryl Pearce granted Monis bail as he deemed there were ‘significant flaws’ in the Crown’s case, and therefore considered bail as ‘a simple matter of fairness’. Thank you Magistrate, I wonder if the families of the two hostages that died consider your ruling fair.
Around 8PM last night I watched an interview with Mr Keysar Traad, founder of the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia and a frequent interviewee on TV programs here in Australia. He stated emphatically that he and other leaders of the Muslim community had no knowledge of who the gunman may be. Given Mr Monis’ media profile – many examples of which have been aired this morning – I would have thought that any so called ‘Muslim leader’ would have been well aware of Mr Monis and the damage he was doing to the reputation of Muslims in Australia. Or maybe that wasn’t the real concern.
The Australian media have gone to great pains to say that this action was not a terrorist attack. However the facts are that Mr Monis unequivocally identified as Muslim before this attack, and displayed a flag featuring Islamic slogans on it. It matters not whether the flag was an ISIS flag or whatever – that flag was meant to convey a message that what he was doing was linked to Islam.
To paraphrase another contributor to this thread; Another. Lone. Islamic. Nutter.

obgraham
16th Dec 2014, 00:17
The deniers among you seem to have acute ostrich syndrome.

Just because this guy acted alone does not make him any less of a terrorist.
Just because there wasn't a bigger plot does not make him less of a terrorist.
Just because the local Muslims are denying him doesn't make him any less of a terrorist.

The facts are that he was applying his Islamic views to his activities. He got those views from other Islamics, whether in Oz or Iran it doesn't matter.

Yes, he was an Islamic terrorist. Small scale one yes, and a bit of a nutter yes (isn't a terrorist by definition a bit of a nutter?). I don't understand the point of refusing to acknowledge it.

Andu
16th Dec 2014, 00:19
I watched an interview with Mr Keysar Traad, founder of the Islamic Friendship Association of AustraliaIt might be worth noting that Mr Traad's high-sounding Islamic Friendship Association of Australia is said to have a total of twelve members, which given that he is also reputed to maintain multiple wives (or if true, it could be said more accurately that the Australian taxpayer maintains his multiple wives and families), its membership could be made up entirely of his immediate family.

It is gob-smacking to see the way the ABC and so many of the rest of the MSM are going out of their way to avoid the ****ing obvious in insisting this man was a lone nutter unconnected to radical Islam.

I am waiting with bated breath to hear Sarah Hanson-Young's spin on this.

meadowrun
16th Dec 2014, 00:50
That "State of Shock" placard would be totally meaningless - Australia has had a multitude of warnings. Are some memories that short?


This criminal refugee, who bathed in the warm, safe Oz sunshine and who I cannot say did an honest day's work in his life was a Terrorist by his actions. This is how he repaid his sanctuary. This is no time to mince words.


The French-Canadian Muslim convert who ran down the soldiers was a Terrorist. The Canadian ne're do well Muslim convert who shot the honour guard soldier and headed off to try to take out a few public servants in our Parliament was a Terrorist.


En Garde.

PinkusDickus
16th Dec 2014, 01:01
Just because this guy acted alone does not make him any less of a terrorist.

Just because there wasn't a bigger plot does not make him less of a terrorist.

Just because the local Muslims are denying him doesn't make him any less of a terrorist.

Quite so. These nutjobs who identify themselves as oppressed, victimised and poorly understood are actively encouraged by Radical Islam to commit Jihadist atrocities such as what happened yesterday in Sydney, in much the same way as the perpetrators who brutally murdered Lee Rigby in London on 22 May 2013.

Jeps
16th Dec 2014, 01:27
I get hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm just not smart enough to process why the judicial system was happy for this man, who was known to also be mentally ill to be out on bail. Given his record of violent (alleged and convicted) crimes my question is what would be required for him to be refused bail?

con-pilot
16th Dec 2014, 01:33
Well, he doesn't need to worry about bail now.

We have the same problem here, people walking the street that have no business doing so. :(

Ozgrade3
16th Dec 2014, 01:40
zanetti-cartoons (http://www.zanetti.net.au/#!december/c1dox)

Sums it up perfectly.

Dec cartoon

rjtjrt
16th Dec 2014, 04:05
The Iranians must be happy they got rid of him, and the gullible west (aka Australia) took him as a poor downtrodden victim of an oppressive regime!

Krystal n chips
16th Dec 2014, 04:35
Possibly, well almost certainly, too complex and rational for those on here whose responses have demonstrated their institutionalised thinking......as ever.

Sydney siege: Don't call Man Haron Monis a 'terrorist' - it only helps Isis | Anne Aly | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/16/sydney-siege-dont-call-man-haron-monis-a-terrorist-it-only-helps-isis)

bosnich71
16th Dec 2014, 04:40
Krystal .... I suppose the IRA, Bahder -Meinhof, Red Brigade et al weren't really terrorists either and I may well be irrational but I reckon I'd have been terrorised by this 'non terrorist' had I been in that café yesterday.

Krystal n chips
16th Dec 2014, 05:17
but I reckon I'd have been terrorised by this 'non terrorist' had I been in that café yesterday.

And so would I as indeed would anybody confronted with an individual holding a weapon and taking hostages in the process.

There's no dispute he committed criminal acts, and had a criminal past, but the point is, he wasn't a terrorist.

It's a very convenient term to define him as such, makes life so much simpler as well for those who are as radical in their perceptions of Muslims as radical Islam is of those they, to their warped thinking in the name of their cause, oppose.

Defining him as a terrorist therefore, is, in effect, another source of propaganda for Isis and nothing more and thus very easy for Isis to capitalise on......as would any organisation, irrespective of whether they are the "good guys" or the "bad guys".

CoodaShooda
16th Dec 2014, 05:33
By acknowledging Monis as a terrorist and as an actor for Isis, we give him exactly what he wanted: recognition, renown and the attention of the world media. We also feed into any possible claims by Isis that this attack is a demonstration of their ability to cause terror in Australia.

Isis has previously claimed that the case of Abdul Numan Haider, the young Australian who stabbed two policeman and was subsequently shot in Melbourne, was a show of their strength and capacity to motivate terrorist actors in faraway lands. They claimed Haider as a hero who died in the cause of Isis.

This is their propaganda machine, that we need to challenge in every respect. That includes not giving them the satisfaction or the right to claim that attacks by a lone gunman, who may well have had a mental illness, were carried out in their name and because of their influence.


My thoughts too.

Stuff this reporting of Terror, Fear, Chaos etc.

A sad, little man with a grudge got himself and two others killed.

The police have to take such threats to life seriously, regardless of the motivation of the perp.

But for the media and pollies to go so over the top in building up the alleged impact this clown's actions have had, makes him sound powerful/someone to be feared and will only encourage copycats.

The MSM and our political leaders are doing the Jihadists' propaganda job for them.

Captain Sand Dune
16th Dec 2014, 05:40
Defining him as a terrorist therefore, is, in effect, another source of propaganda for Isis and nothing more and thus very easy for Isis to capitalise on......as would any organisation, irrespective of whether they are the "good guys" or the "bad guys".
Quite true. This from news.com.au:
ISLAMIC State murderer and former Sydney boxer Mohamed Elomar has broken his silence to support the terror siege that left two people dead in Martin Place. The 30-year-old — who was photographed with standover man Khaled Sharrouf holding up the heads of dead soldiers in Syria — took to Twitter early this morning. Elomar — who has been linked to the Abu Hafs Al Australi Twitter account — posted two messages in support of the actions of Man Haron Monis.
“’Mumbai Crisis’ in the streets of Sydney. Maximum damage,” he said.
“I think we got ourselves a real life hostage situation in Sydney lolololololololol.”
Elomar — who follows prominent international hate preachers Shaikh Faisal and Mizanur Rahman — also changed his profile photo to the Islamic State flag and Arabic script. Abu Hamza AlMuhajir — who also goes by the name of Abdul Salam Mahmoud and Yassin Ali — also mocked the Sydney siege situation. The former Street Dawah member, a close friend of Islamic State commander Mohammad Ali Baryalei, posted a series of messages online.
“The world must stand for the news of 13 Australian hostages but it would sleep for the news of over 130000 Muslims killed in Syria,” he posted on Twitter. “Gaza is under siege, Homs and Damascus are under siege the CAFÉ in Sydney is Not. The Hash rage SydneySiege is a joke.”
“I don’t know the brother in Sydney but I can tell U the msg he wants 2 send “if U harm our people we will harm your people, leave us alone.”
“There was no Muslim extremists committing crimes in Australia ever before Australia decided to go to Iraq and Syria.”
On another Twitter account linked to a former senior leader of the Bankstown-based Al-Risalah group, it mocked the Grand Mufti for condemning the actions of Monis. “Every action has a reaction are we that blind that we can’t back track the reason for today’s event,” Abu Ousayd Al-Islami wrote.
Hizb ut-Tahrir spokesman Uthman Badar also rejected calls for his hate group to issue a statement against the actions of Monis, who had recently converted to the Sunni sect and was a supporter of IS.
“Why the assumption that we would issue a statement? Did you issue one about #CIAtorture?,” he told a Twitter follower. He also said “if people want to make stupid presumptions not my job to correct them.”
Badar — who was banned from speaking at the Sydney Opera House earlier this year because of his radical views — also attempted to link the siege to the actions of the Federal Government. “Random Muslim does wrong thing = Muslims brace backlash. Elected secular liberal states do wrong thing = business as usual. Why? #sydneysiege.”
Hizb ut-Tahrir Australia had previously supported Monis after he was convicted of sending hateful letters to the families of dead soldiers.

Looks like ISIS reckons Monis is/was the 'real deal'.
I see where you're coming from with your argument with respect to defining someone as a terrorist, however I reckon the real point here is that Monis committed a crime (in this case kidnapping and murder) in the name of his chosen beliefs, ie Islam.

obgraham
16th Dec 2014, 05:41
I realize, K&C, that you think those of us who think a guy who cobbles up a bunch of innocent bystanders at gunpoint, holds up an Islamic banner, then shoots at least one of those bystanders is just another terrorist -- well you think that idea is barmy, and primitive compared to your "nuanced view" of these things.

I also recall that you don't bother with a "nuanced view" when it comes to those who know evil when they see it -- like Cheney, Bush, or any other Republican for that matter.

But trying to make the case that calling this spade a spade gives aid and comfort to ISIS is just plain stupid.

rh200
16th Dec 2014, 06:36
There's no dispute he committed criminal acts, and had a criminal past, but the point is, he wasn't a terrorist.

Call it like it is, a terrorist attack. All this splitting hairs is what plays into their hands. Regardless of his metal state of mind. He carried out the act to inflict fear and gain political points.

He was not some standard criminal who incidentaly got into a situation where he took hostages as some last minute ploy to gain time and maybe freedom

He was a piece of Sh!t who deliberatly took hostages and kept them hostage under threat of terror to make political gains, another words a terrorist, an islamic terrorist.

What where all these other so called criminal convictions, more things he justified under Islam I am gathering?

mikedreamer787
16th Dec 2014, 06:53
After reading up this bastard's track record he should've been shoved on a small boat and sent adrift off the West Oz coast to find his own way back home at least 2 years ago.

Shit like this happens (and will continue to happen) until resident Australians remove the Left from effective power and their huggy-fluff immigration crap.

bosnich71
16th Dec 2014, 08:08
Krystal ... your arguments might add up to something if you, perhaps, desisted from attaching labels to all who do not share your beliefs.
'radical in their principles', 'warped thinking',for example.

John Hill
16th Dec 2014, 08:12
Krystal ... your arguments might add up to something if you, perhaps, desisted from attaching labels to all who do not share your beliefs.
'radical in their principles', 'warped thinking',for example.

Are you sure KnC is the one doing that?

Pinky the pilot
16th Dec 2014, 08:16
Are you sure KnC is the one doing that?

Well Mr Hill, I do anyway. Others can speak for themselves.

bosnich71
16th Dec 2014, 09:17
Meanwhile in Peshawar,Pakistan, the Taliban Branch of the RoP is carrying out yet another 'non terrorist' operation. School children targeted this time.

rh200
16th Dec 2014, 09:20
Meanwhile in Peshawar,Pakistan, the Taliban Branch of the RoP is carrying out yet another 'non terrorist' operation. School children targeted this time.

yea I put a winge on the ISIS tread about it since I couldn't find a ROP hamster wheel.

Krystal n chips
16th Dec 2014, 09:23
Krystal ... your arguments might add up to something if you, perhaps, desisted from attaching labels to all who do not share your beliefs.
'radical in their principles', 'warped thinking',for example

If you had bothered to read what I wrote regarding "warped thinking" you would have noted I was referring to Isis.

Conversely, you were correct about radical thinking. Try reading the (many) posts on here from those who are so antagonistic towards Muslims, that, if they were writing in support of radical Islam would fall into the very category they invariably condemn.

As for the subject of this thread, a criminal yes, dressed in his national clothing, yes, held extremist views, yes, had a criminal history, yes, carried a black flag with Arabic script emblazoned, yes....armed with a shotgun and..... what else ?...we don't know as nothing has been revealed, as yet, but seemingly, nothing else that you would associate with terrorism intent on causing the maximum public carnage.

Defining him as a terrorist at this stage is an own goal therefore, unless, of course, incontrovertible evidence emerges that his actions were a direct result of orders from Isis, or any other militant group for that matter.

bosnich71
16th Dec 2014, 09:35
Krystal ...I apologise for not being able to follow your convoluted post properly however...
You may argue that the 'person' terminated today was not a terrorist but it seems that Amirah Droudis,his wife/girl friend, who has been charged with the murder of the scum bag's first wife does consider herself a terrorist so perhaps the bloke himself did also.
I don't think that either acted on direct orders from ISIS/Taleban or any other band of nutters but that doesn't make them any less a terrorist than them.
The 'non terrorist' Taleban are now being reported as killing as many as 80 plus schoolchildren in Peshawar as I write.

rh200
16th Dec 2014, 09:56
incontrovertible evidence emerges that his actions were a direct result of orders from Isis

WTF! we have to have an audit trail now before declaring them a terrorist? Is there no end to this PC sanity?

They have have issued a call for arms for lonewolf attacks, it was answered. Fortuniatly we are the benificiarys of two fortunate circumstances, one our forces are on top of it generally, and two, the amount of extremists amongst the base population are small enough for it to go answered in any meaningful way.

chuks
16th Dec 2014, 10:05
That scenario with the two snipers took place in an early James Bond novel, I think. Bond was teamed with another sniper, when the first sniper shot a hole in the window of a skyscraper and the second then shot and killed their target through the hole. That was in New York City, I think, perhaps at Rockefeller Center, but it was the sort of thing you might only find in a James Bond novel, not in real life.

To put all Muslims together with these fanatics does not seem to me to be the way to go. There are a lot more decent ones than there are kill-crazed ones, although there do seem to be more and more of the second sort running loose nowadays. Germany now has been forced to retreat a bit from multi-culturalism, to impose controls on people either wanting to join the fundamentalists, or else returning from doing their version of "jihad."

There are all sorts of nuanced things being presented to people who just do not want to get that concept, especially those who tell us what to think on the TV news. What the "shahada" represents, what "jihad" actually means in full, that sort of stuff: way too complicated for a sound-bite delivered by a twinky. A lot of the fanatics do not get that either, so that if you want to take a real simplistic approach to Islam and Muslims in general, you may find yourself in bed with some very unpleasant people!

I could take something such as the Luther Bible and show how it's deeply anti-Semitic, to claim that modern Germans are still fanatically so. Hey, it's right there in their Holy Book! In much the same way, the Koran has some pretty alarming stuff in it. That's only a part of any religion, though: what is in their scriptures. What might matter more is what this or that group of believers chooses to emphasize. Just as we have Muslims who are as bad or worse than the late hostage-taker from Sydney, we have contemporary Christians who wave live rattlesnakes about to show the strength of their faith. Are they representative of most Muslims and Christians, though, so that we should fear or even proscribe these religions?

Sop_Monkey
16th Dec 2014, 10:11
Waiting for someone to try to convince us that the latest outrage in Pakistan is a lone one off.

MagnusP
16th Dec 2014, 10:14
Not going to be easy writing of half a dozen taliban as a crazed one-off, is it?

bosnich71
16th Dec 2014, 10:25
Chuks.. they may 'wave live rattlesnakes' but I don't believe that they are chopping heads off and massacring people every other day.
Perhaps it's time for all the non terrorist Muslims to pull the pin on this 'religion' and form another religion/group/sect. Oh s**t that's been tried hasn't it? Hence the current problem.

Fliegenmong
16th Dec 2014, 10:38
"those who are so antagonistic towards Muslims, that, if they were writing in support of radical Islam would fall into the very category they invariably condemn."

Ha ha, yes an interesting observation K&C!

But I am afraid Haron Monis committed a terrorist act. (in my book at least). I grant you he was a lone nutter, not necessarily affiliated closely to AQ or ISIS or any others.

He was a rather pathetic (Fortunately!!) terrorist insofar as he killed only 2 innocents....

You are aware that he was having his female hostages make videos on their phones requesting 3 things don't you K&C? One of which was an ISIS flag be delivered to him....and in lieu of one he used the Shahada flag to start with.

No K&C this nutter committed a terrorist act, plain and simple, had the IRA done the same it would be called a terrorist act.

47 counts of indecent assault, an accessory to murder of his ex wife, and a history of writing vile letters to families of dead Australian soldiers, he forfeited his right to even be free, and I've long said those that sit on parole boards should go inside if those they release re offend.!

(Actually speaking ill of the dead is something that Alan Jones did when he spoke of Gillards dead Father did he not? A disturbing parallel)

I also see that terrorist sympathiser Keyser Trad claims no one knew him!! I call BS on that one right away....getting about town dressed like that a known 'Cleric'?

I do understand it is an unfortunate thing that ISIS pick up on things like this and claim involvement....I am sure that on Sunday night they did not know who Monis was.

A lone nutter sure...but a lone nutter that most certainly wanted to associate his actions with Islam....now......where have I seen that before? :hmm:

Oh yeah, 'nother small fact worth noting that this clown arrived in 1996 and was granted permanent residency all within the Kim Il howard years...

Fliegenmong
16th Dec 2014, 10:58
Oh good grief!!! From 'Clover' Moore....

"We all know that this was an isolated one-off event by a perpetrator with a very violent past. We can isolate it and know that is what has happened"

I trust Clover, that when the next event happens, and it will happen, you'll again be there (after the smoke clears of course) to remind us of the same again....:ugh:

To be fair at least, the budgie smuggler wearing goon did say it was a 'brush' with terrorism, even during the seige the ABC had some 'academic' telling us this was not terrorism....If so, the silly bint should have gone down and offered to take someone's place in the cafe!!....

probes
16th Dec 2014, 11:03
terrorists or criminals - as if that mattered. Is the attack at the Pakistani school school shooting, military school shooting, suicide bombing, terrorism or massacre? One-off or recurrent? Makes no difference to those who died and who mourn for them.

Makes one wonder, once again, what's wrong with the species.

Fliegenmong
16th Dec 2014, 11:24
Oh yeah...there they are again....the religion of peace....they must surely be the most misunderstood bunch going around....maybe they should hire a PR company?

Boudreaux Bob
16th Dec 2014, 11:28
The Beat goes on.

The usual few ignore the simple facts.

The Perp kidnapped and held hostage at gunpoint ordinary People and made demands for an ISIS Flag among other things all the while forcing some of his Hostages to hold up an Islamic Flag that he brought with him. He considered himself an Islamic Cleric, presented himself as a follower of Islam in his daily life and political views.

So you folks on the Left, explain how you can see no link to Islam here, how it was not a Terrorist Action (did he ask for money, an airplane to leave the country) and not just a Robbery gone wrong?

I would also like the Lefties to explain why one has to be a Card Carrying member of Al Qaeda or ISIS or the Muslim Brotherhood in order to be known as an Islamic Terrorist?

Holding a bunch of people Hostage while pointing a Shotgun at them and threatening to kill them while demanding the government fetch you an ISIS Flag surely has to qualify as a Terroristic Act even in Oz and even the UK.

Whether the guy was mentally deranged and a known bad actor only serves to reinforce the notion he was in fact an Islamic Terrorist as by Western Societal Norms the acts of Islamic Terrorists fall into that descriptive category by any reasonable critieria.

An American Army General talked of this before during the Hurricane Katrina situation...."Don't get stuck on Stupid!".

The guy was an Islamic Terrorist....the only question is what kind.

Fliegenmong
16th Dec 2014, 11:40
Hey Bob I'm left of centre on a lot of things, and damned near right of Ghengis Khan on others!

I take a statement such as 'You folks on the left' to be horribly offensive in it's narrow minded simplicity....Living in the real world....things are not often as black and white as that, and I know you can do better than that!...That said....I have already called this pond scum out for what he really is...errr thankfully WAS, an irrational religious fanatic taking advantage of an accommodating country to further diminish the likes of his ilk in our eyes

rh200
16th Dec 2014, 11:42
The beauty of the lone wolf system is it ties up an extreme amount of resources. We had someone saying, why wasn't the agencies following this guy? How many people do they have and how many do they need to follow.

In essence the lone wolf can't do to much actual damage (with respect to the individuals killed:() in relation to war type scenarios, but they tie up resources.

This basically has the potential that any larger attack may be harder to detect, as such they aren't putting the resources where they need them. This incident has some very interesting learnings, sadly it appears we didn't learnt from 911, and I'm sure that has been noted.

Krystal n chips
16th Dec 2014, 11:48
A lone nutter sure...but a lone nutter that most certainly wanted to associate his actions with Islam....now......where have I seen that before?

Try Judith Ward...although she was later proven innocent.

You will note, if you bother the read the article, those much maligned Muslims didn't want anything to do with him either....problematic for some I know.

BBC News - Man Haron Monis: 'Damaged' and 'unstable' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-30484419)

Describing him as a terrorist is convenient in the current climate. The fact he had a well known and documented criminal past, over how many years ?....doesn't lend itself well towards being a dedicated terrorist.

Mentally ill criminal would, from what we read, be a far better description of him, but, it's nowhere near as emotive as terrorist now is it ?.

Whether the guy was mentally deranged and a known bad actor only serves to reinforce the notion he was in fact an Islamic Terrorist as by Western Societal Norms the acts of Islamic Terrorists fall into that descriptive category by any reasonable critieria.

An American Army General talked of this before during the Hurricane Katrina situation...."Don't get stuck on Stupid!".

To judge by your statement above, said General clearly knew his target audience. Were you in the audience that day ?.

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 11:49
Ogre wrote:

about snipers in teams of two both firing at the target. The intent was that the first round would break the glass and the second would be unimpeded.

That is a very efficient method of sniping when firing through an obstacle such as glass in order to reach the target. However, the second shooter must be able to fire within milliseconds of the first. For obvious reasons.

Fliegenmong
16th Dec 2014, 11:55
This wasn't the footage I saw this morning before work, but it'll do..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOpDVrhhDlA

Now I know FA about guns...but it seems to me that they sure pumped this clown full of lead!! Shame they won't smear him in pig fat and feed him to the dingos as Radeng (?) suggested!

Actually makes you wonder if the two innocents held hostage by this 'Islamic cleric' were indeed killed by him, and were not in fact 'Collateral' by police?....That said....does it matter when the ultimate resolution was forced upon the situation?

I understand that every action and decision etc etc will be scrutinised in minute detail..

I still couldn't help but think...."If this was French or Israeli Police....would this clown had 17 hours?" Suspect terrorist would be riddled with standard police issue lead in rather shorter time...

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 12:06
rh200 wrote:

WTF! we have to have an audit trail now before declaring them a terrorist? Is there no end to this PC sanity?

Unfortunately my friend, no, there is no end to the PC insanity. It creeps out from under its rock every chance it gets.

But I look at it this way. For every terrorist incident like this past weekend's in Australia, or 7/7 in England, 9/11 in the U.S., etc., the liberals , huggy-fluffs, tree-huggers and PC crowd (along with the members of the outrage train) are all indirectly responsible for each and every one of these terrorist attacks.

Fliegenmong
16th Dec 2014, 12:16
"Mentally ill criminal would, from what we read, be a far better description of him, but, it's nowhere near as emotive as terrorist now is it ?"

Maybe so KC, yet he went out of his way to associate his actions with the Islamic faith...or at least a perversion of it....and that is a re-occuring theme...dismally addressed buy mainstream Muslims now for..oh...what about 13 years???

And for the record K&C, I have repeatedly called the invasion of Iraq a prime reason for these 'events' (Afghanistan not so much so) but Every intelligent person in the world knew that Saddam kept a lid on the likes of ISIS and that he despised Osama Bin Laden.....

....the very thought that 'the right' care to blame Obama for pulling out too early neatly removes any scrutiny of 'the right's' decision to knowingly remove a stabilising force (Saddam)..the failure to ignore that simple fact leaves 'The right', clearly in my mind, unable to be able to re assess a situation and make tactical compensation for a changing threat environment.

Not military myself, but would think an ability to do just that was vital....

But too often those 'on the right' fail to see beyond their own dogma and be able to adapt to survive....that said the Left have it in abundance as well, failure to see things as they are

Boudreaux Bob
16th Dec 2014, 12:17
Flieg....then you do not qualify for the Class of folks to whom I refer.

I refer to those who refuse to accept any view of the World except their own and who then upon encountering opposing viewpoints use personal insults and name calling towards those who have different views.

You are welcome to your views just as I am.

I did not address my comments to you individually or by name in any way...did I?

If you wish to volunteer your membership in that Class of Folk then that is your choice that is freely made by you for your own reasons.

On the issue at hand, the Hostage Taking in Sydney, an honest review of all the comments made so far in the thread, we can see a Left/Right array of positions re whether it was a Terrorist Act and that it was an Act of Islamic Terrorism.

That divide is to be expected is it not?

Nothing unusual about that either I would suggest.

The "Lefties" as I call them, shall never just come right out and admit to the facts as presented in any situation and graciously accept the obvious if the narrative goes against their views, agenda, or politics. In trying to defend their defenseless position they always resort to insults and name calling rather than dealing with the issues. They are the folks that go after the Player and not the Ball in these discussions.

They are few but they are exist.

We had a perfect example of the Godwin Rule just the other day did we not?

Fliegenmong
16th Dec 2014, 12:24
"past weekend's in Australia, or 7/7 in England, 9/11 in the U.S., etc., the liberals , huggy-fluffs, tree-huggers and PC crowd (along with the members of the outrage train) are all indirectly responsible for each and every one of these terrorist attacks."

Do I need (well, clearly I do), remind the Sydney 'Criminal misfit' terrorist Jihadi proponent, hater of the welfare system, yet sucked off it whilst denouncing us..............was invited into the country and granted permanent residency by the warmongering Dubyas lap dog john howard??? 'Twas under his watch...not the lefts that let him in..

But you know......wouldn't want facts getting in the way....:}

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 12:27
Bob wrote:

refer to those who refuse to accept any view of the World except their own and who then upon encountering opposing viewpoints use personal insults and name calling towards those who have different views.

Aren't those called Liberals in the U.S.? :}:E

mickjoebill
16th Dec 2014, 12:43
https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/25790618/7news-cameraman-recounts-harrowing-scenes

Fascinating and extraordinary footage from a TV cameraman who assisted a police sniper for the entire 16 hours and relayed live images to police control.


Mickjoebill

Mr Chips
16th Dec 2014, 12:43
Now I know FA about guns...but it seems to me that they sure pumped this clown full of lead

That noise is flash bangs...stun grenades. If you really think they went in firing that many rounds..... :ugh:

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 12:46
Correct Mr. Chips, flash bangs. When you absolutely, positively must stun as quickly as possible. :ok:

Boudreaux Bob
16th Dec 2014, 12:54
Stun Immediately....two to the Head! Choose your Caliber.:E

pigboat
16th Dec 2014, 12:56
Nice read.

SteynOnline: I Wish That Bird Would Fly Away. (http://www.steynonline.com/6711/i-wish-that-bird-would-fly-away)

At one level, the Aussie authorities screwed up the way the Canadian and US authorities screwed up: These jihadists are less "lone wolves" than, as Patrick Poole says, "known wolves". The Ottawa shooter, the St Jean killer, the Marathon bombers, the Fort Hood major, the pantybomber, all were known to the authorities. So was "Sheikh Haron": Aside from various earlier charges and convictions, he had been charged as an accessory to the murder of his wife, who died in a particularly brutal way, stabbed and set alight in the stairwell of her apartment building.

And yet he was out on bail. And so Katrina Dawson and Tori Johnson died.

The price of incubating, nurturing and growing Islam in the west is too high. Ms Dawson and Mr Johnson did not deserve to die for going to a coffee shop. And, beyond the folly of Sheikh Haron's bail eligibility, the two Sydney victims were sacrificed on the altar of multiculturalist delusion.

Flying Binghi
16th Dec 2014, 14:25
So what caused the islamic cleric to do what the koran instructs.. :hmm:

A video about islam in Oz from a few years ago...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsiKVc028I0&feature=related


So when do they start running over pedestrians...











.

Boudreaux Bob
16th Dec 2014, 14:43
Teddy Roosevelt told us about this situation a very long time ago.

He was referring to the Irish and Germans back in those days but the concepts apply to our current situation.

He did not believe in "Hyphenated Americans".

How does a devout Muslim, who believes in every word of the Koran, adapt to life in a secular democratic society which requires separation of Church and State along with requiring Equality for Women?

It would seem Islam is in need of its own Reformation.

We know how much chance we have of that happening.

?True Americanism? The Forum Magazine | Teaching American History (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/true-americanism-the-forum-magazine/)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
16th Dec 2014, 14:46
One awaits with interest to see how hard in future the Australian legal profession will fight for accessories to murder to be out on bail, when the bailee then kills a member of the legal profession.
I recall a sudden initiative to do something about knife crime when a millionaire in Chelsea got murdered.
This one I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_John_Monckton
The sentence was one of the longest in British legal history.

Attitudes tend to change when things start happening on one's own doorstep, instead of just in the news.

Flying Binghi
16th Dec 2014, 14:57
In other news, islamic clerics follow koranic teachings and...

A Taliban attack on a school... "...left at least 126 people dead, mostly children and teenagers in grades 1-10..."

Officials Say 126 Dead in Taliban Attack on Pakistan School, Mostly Children | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com (http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/12/16/officials-say-126-dead-in-taliban-attack-on-pakistan-school-mostly-children/)









.

Solid Rust Twotter
16th Dec 2014, 15:24
High speed rounds tend to punch holes through glass rather than shatter it. I doubt you'd get a reasonable shot off with a smaller calibre unless it penetrates perpendicular to the surface, and even then it could be deflected. Larger calibres such as the .50 or even a 20mm AMR will do the trick with less chance of deflection, but you'd still need to penetrate almost perpendicular if you're going for a small target area.

Might be easier to sneak up and blow the window with a breaching charge in a coordinated attack, or use shotguns loaded with bird shot at close range to drop it then have a marksman take a shot.

The shooters were marksmen rather than snipers. Snipers cam up then approach and stalk a target unseen. Marksmen roll up in the back of a van and set up a perch with the media watching.


Either way, it's all just speculation from those who weren't there. I have no doubt the responding teams did the best job they could under the circumstances and second guessing them is pointless.

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 15:32
http://assets.patriotpost.us/images/2014-12-16-a0a110e5_large.jpg

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 15:44
Every picture tells a story....

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/96e9b4003be498409f65f6b4346e2f1cc4d13546/c=436-420-2710-2130&r=x693&c=920x690/local/-/media/2014/12/15/USATODAY/USATODAY/635542050171032269-AP-Australia-Police-Operation.jpg

And until the West pulls their collective heads out of their asses and wakes up to reality, the above will be repeated time and time again.

Radical Islam is a virus on the earth. And needs to be eradicated as quickly as possible. Using all, and necessary, means.

Krystal n chips
16th Dec 2014, 16:27
" Radical Islam is a virus on the earth. And needs to be eradicated as quickly as possible. Using all, and necessary, means"

Thank you for so succinctly proving my point....well done.

Boudreaux Bob
16th Dec 2014, 16:33
Australian Study shows a link between Mental Illness and Lone Wolf Attacks.

Can identifying mental illness stop terror attacks? (http://news.yahoo.com/identifying-mental-illness-stop-terror-attacks-172707999.html)

tony draper
16th Dec 2014, 16:36
Islam is the virus on Earth

Boudreaux Bob
16th Dec 2014, 16:39
This Political Correctness thing of multiculturalism is not working out quite as nicely as promised is it?

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 16:41
Bob,

You know as well as I do that it isn't. It's the huggy-fluff, tree-hugging, kumbaya-singing crowd which stands in the way of what needs to be done.

Boudreaux Bob
16th Dec 2014, 16:55
After we have another 911 sized attack (or worse) then we shall see some omelets made.

It is only a matter of time before something does happen.

We cannot have a wide open border where kids three years old can walk across and Terrorists not.

Terrorists are smart, capable, dedicated, and well financed.

They adapt very quickly and we have to stay ahead of them which we have proven we are not....time and time again.

As long as we are reacting and allow them to have the Initiative they will continue to hit us over and over again.

Laws of Warfare do not change....Sunny and Claus knew what they were talking about.

meadowrun
16th Dec 2014, 16:59
Radical Islam is the Cancer of Earth, run by gangs of little boys and gangs of men who never grew up. It stems from a vast inferiority complex some would argue is quite appropriate. Islam in itself is just fine.


What do you do with cancers? That is a rhetorical question.

Torque Tonight
16th Dec 2014, 17:10
Imagine my surprise to come back from work, learn of yet another terrorist atrocity and find Islamist terrorists proudly claiming responsibility. Not those pesky Buddhists, Rastafarians, athiests etc, but the religion of peace once again. This has to be one of the lowest, most evil attacks so far, and that's quite something with their track record. I await the usual suspects to play this down and tell us how un-PC we are for drawing any sort of correlation between militant Islam and bloodshed. The outlook for the world is bleak unless we can collectively put an end to this bull----.

Blacksheep
16th Dec 2014, 17:24
Radical Islam springs from the 'satanic verses' that most muslims deny exist. These are those verses that turn adherents of deviant teachings into killers of any they assume to be "infidels". It is mostly the "wrong kind of Muslims" who bear the brunt of the Deviationist ire. Two Australians died in Sydney, but around 130 children who were "the wrong kind of Muslim" were just slaughtered in cold blood in Pakistan - where The Taliban" seems to be the origin of modern deviationism. Meanwhile "The Islamic State" kills thousands of the wrong kind of Muslims all over Syria and Iraq. The west is outraged by occasional attacks in the civilised countries, but it is Muslims who have the most to fear from the agents of the devil.

con-pilot
16th Dec 2014, 17:29
but it is Muslims who have the most to fear from the agents of the devil.

Perhaps then we should more or less leave them alone and let them wipe themselves out.

wings folded
16th Dec 2014, 17:29
You know as well as I do that it isn't. It's the huggy-fluff, tree-hugging, kumbaya-singing crowd which stands in the way of what needs to be done.
What mechanism prevents the, non-huggy, unfluffy population which only finds a tree useful for pissing against and have not mastered the simple refrain of kumbaya, from sweeping all that aside and doing "what needs to be done"?

MagnusP
16th Dec 2014, 17:31
What do you do with cancers? That is a rhetorical question.

Non-rhetorical answer. Radiation is considered effective in many cases.

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 17:36
wings folded:

What mechanism prevents the, non-huggy, unfluffy population which only finds a tree useful for pissing against and have not mastered the simple refrain of kumbaya, from sweeping all that aside and doing "what needs to be done"?

My answer?

http://www.blackfive.net/photos/uncategorized/2009/02/27/vigiliance.jpg

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 17:37
MagnusP wrote:

Non-rhetorical answer. Radiation is considered effective in many cases.

:ok::ok::ok:

con-pilot
16th Dec 2014, 17:39
What mechanism prevents the, non-huggy, unfluffy population which only finds a tree useful for pissing against and have not mastered the simple refrain of kumbaya, from sweeping all that aside and doing "what needs to be done"?

I don't know, ask President Obama. He is the only one in the world that has the military power to do anything about this problem.

Should he do anything, don't know, well above my pay grade.

However, if these cowardly terrorist use a nuclear device in the United States, all bets are off.

obgraham
16th Dec 2014, 17:48
However, if these cowardly terrorist use a nuclear device in the United States, all bets are off. I don't believe for a single minute, Con, that the current administration would do anything significant in retaliation. They would bleat and moan, and then suffer defeat at the next election, but that's it.

wings folded
16th Dec 2014, 17:49
rgbrock,

so it has not worked, then, because

the huggy-fluff, tree-hugging, kumbaya-singing crowd which stands in the way of what needs to be done.

seems to have prevailed. Why?

con-pilot
16th Dec 2014, 17:56
I don't believe for a single minute, Con, that the current administration would do anything significant in retaliation. They would bleat and moan, and then suffer defeat at the next election, but that's it.

Sad to say, I do believe that you might be correct.

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 18:20
obgraham wrote:

I don't believe for a single minute, Con, that the current administration would do anything significant in retaliation. They would bleat and moan, and then suffer defeat at the next election, but that's it.

If a nuclear device was detonated on American soil, and killed many Americans this administration would, as you say, probably bleat for awhile and that's about it. HOWEVER, I don't think the U.S. military would sit idly by and not respond. With, or without, governmental approval.

rgbrock1
16th Dec 2014, 18:21
wings folded asked

seems to have prevailed. Why?

Why? There are words for it. 'Pussies', 'Cowards', and 'Spineless' come to mind.

wings folded
16th Dec 2014, 18:45
Who are the pussies, etcetera, and how do they prevail?