EK pilots going to Virgin America

[totahoe]

Interested if anyone has any friends working for Virgin America that have previously worked at EK. How's it really going there? Would like to hear if this is just Virgin PR or are they really satisfied with the move back.

Full circle - a pilot's journey home - Virgin.com (http://www.virgin.com/travel/full-circle-pilots-journey-home)

[casablanca]

While in many ways sounds good....the returning home part for sure, a Fo on the 320 is paid 40,000???? The commute from FT Lauderdale to San Francisco is probably not as much fun as the blogger made it sound!

[jimmyg]

My former company leased 4 320's to VX; these were all well used about 4 years old, hardly new as claimed "all new fleet".... I was sent out to ferry and support operations with additions to fleet for 4 months.

I can tell you then that the T/C's is just only slightly above the regionals throughout the US. Nor do I think they have improved since then.

Most come for time and experience and desire to move on to a Legacy carrier as soon as practical. The company has only recently come out of the red with a long tough competitive row to hoe.

With most if not all major's now hiring I cannot fathom anyone with experience going to work for Virgin.

[Left Coaster]

So…if I read this correctly, it's going back to the bottom of a seniority list, a serious cut in pay, and an admission that he couldn't handle the pressure and hard work in DXB. (Why on earth was he out surfing at 50 C anyway…all the while feeling like a zombie…and that heat will cook anyone's innards. Sounds a bit thick if you ask me!) Taxes, a three hour commute to work, and I'm guessing a cost involved there…maybe a crash pad? He's lucky his wife got her old job back as well. The whole article is all sweetness and light and very Pro VAmerica…is there anyone out there who might have a different experience? I bet there is...

[bringbackthe80s]

I struggle to believe something like this gets posted on an official airline's web page...apart from personal experiences and opinions about living abroad, I can't believe how it's given for granted that living in the U.S. is such a superior lifestyle and how it should be everybody's dream! -and just before someone argues, I love San Francisco and would move to California tomorrow-

[Wizofoz]

Actually, I think he is being perfectly reasonable- He came, did his bit at EK, then decided he and his family were better off at home.

It's not for everyone, and each to his own WRT how long he/she stays or what they go home too.

He didn't slag EK, and was perfectly reasonable in the reasons he decided it was time.

Best of luck to him and anyone else who makes a respectful, reasoned exit.

[casablanca]

Nobody blames him for leaving, I think everyone in these parts would ultimately like to go home.....but funny how they made his new life, low seniority, low pay and probably a 6-8 hour commute look so joyful.....his wife will be lucky to see him more than 1 day per week.

[checcker10]

What a load if trash journalism.

[JuniorMan]

I've been a vocal critic of pilots leaving EK join one of the US3. To leave EK for VX is absolutely insane. A lot of our new hires at the legacies are from VX.

[Iver]

Comments about the heat are true - bloody hot and that heat is not for everyone. I have experienced it first hand.

Wonder if he looked at Spirit and JetBlue which have hubs in Ft. Lauderdale?

[Saltaire]

I think many of us understand some of the issues, but back to commuting? And across the country to do it? Sounds like Zombie to me, and a stressful one. Good luck to them.

[fliion]

Too much in the article to deconstruct.

A transcon commute, $40k before taxes - for what is considered a regional package with slightly larger equipment - completely fcukn nuts.

f.

[ironbutt57]

apparently the expat life just doesn't suit this fellow after all....for some folks, it's all about home, for others, it's getting back into the pipeline to pursue better opportunities at a later date...to each his own...I liked the bit about the walking zombie...don't any of his critics here relate to that?

[Payscale]

Good luck to anyone who leaves. We all have our reasons. One thing is for sure. We all came one day and we will all leave one day. When we find a job that suits us we will leave...or retire to somewhere else. Dont slag the guy. He made a choice not to stay for a command and move to the US for another job. Hope it works out.

[Trader]

The gut left for what many here are saying is crap job.

Perhaps that says more about EK then it says about VA or this fellows decision.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Bingo. I was wondering how long it would take for that observation to coalesce.

[Outatowner]

the benefits and perks of flying for an airline that had deep pockets Which airline??

went to great pains to make their villa homes comfortable Speaking of "pain", he made it out before the Meydan crisis hit.

providing a chauffeur driven car to pick up Darrin for his scheduled flights.If only he mentioned the standard of driving these "chauffeurs" display and the fact that if they didn't drive us to work we'd only show up on time.

Desert trips to neighbouring states such as Oman Oman is good..... and where else?? Saudi I guess. Nice!

sojourns into the restaurants, malls Local culture. They make it sound amazing.

All in all a bull**** report in the vein of the great pud-pulling by Captain America some years back but despite depth of the BS I do support the thinly-veiled strategy behind it.

[TransitCheck]

Bravo to the guy.

We all sit on here and complain about EK and its idiotic policy. This guy voted with his feet.

If I could find an operator in the US paying me what I make right now, I would leave right now even if it was going back to fly a Cessna.

No grooming checks, no command upgrade interview, no worrying about your job every day when you fly, not being scared of sim checks and prick instructors, much less illogical thinking overall, information in one easy place rather then scattered in 5 books, no unpaid online training, and no notes in the books telling you that everywhere in the US has "nonstandard phraseology"

............oh yeah, but here we get a chauffeur drive to work and no respect from the company.

[Iver]

I read Delta will be hiring 90+ pilots per month for the next 5 years to replace something like 3,000 retiring pilots. Is that true?

[fliion]

Well I have a lot of buddy's at DAL and the latest number they were given was 65 per month.

2007 joiners can now hold NYC B717 Capt. as a result of this months 'award'

Another big equipment 'bid' due January and 717 Capt slots will go more junior due many 7- year guys wanting 777/764/330 intl - last hurrah before they go NB LHS.

If you're young...Go home, AA & UAL similar situ's developing.

Virgin - not even on the plantation.

f

[fliion]

I stand corrected - just off phone from Delta bud.

100 per month.

Serious numbers now developing.

f.

[fatbus]

So it begs the question . Why are the US pilots still here?

[fliion]

Too many personal factors for a blanket response.

In my case age & kids.

I'm just on the back side of that curve & wife, kids thriving.

Also work gripes don't translate into life gripes for those who have their priorities straight.

The ones who let it get to them on days off - "AVOID, AVOID, AVOID!"

f.

[Capi]

Straight from the horse's mouth 115 new souls per month indefinitely at DL

[gl69]

Fatbus a lot of American pilots are stuck here. As been mentioned before a lot of the Americans have issues that prevent them from going home, much to their dismay.
DUIs, Court Orders, No College Degrees, Lack of Child payments but the big one being talent will keep some Americans in the sand. The vast majority of Americans are looking to leave though as they should be looking. AA has over 200 applications from EK pilots. Some EK pilots have even left for Jet Blue and Spirit and I'm sure everyone has seen the Virgin thread.
The 92 hours a month is the deal breaker for most. This will kill most of us and is unstainable. Even the FOs are starting to fly that much as so many pilots are leaving Emirates.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Their conversion course training needs some work. The video showed some nice cutaway shots of the the A380. :E

[Laker]

gl69,

I know many Americans at EK and none of them have prior DUI's or happen to be hiding from court orders. Not sure what you mean by "but the big one being talent will keep some Americans in the sand?" Are you implying that the Americans at EK would not make the grade at a DAL or AA interview? I think it's quite obvious that the EK interview process was more rigorous than the typical US airline interview. Many have left recently and didn't seem to have a problem getting hired.

Moving your family and giving up decent pay to start over at the bottom of a list in a precarious industry is not an easy decision. I do agree that the rosters and hours are unsustainable. Maybe some are waiting around in hope that EK will change in order to prevent a future exodus. The next few years will be interesting.

[BeCareful]

As long as EK has the European wonder kids beating down the doors to get in, they have no reason to change any policies or improve T&C's.

Look at it this way... Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans all want to come to Dubai and work here. They get treated like crap, but hey... beats staying home, right? Now look at European pilots... going into massive debt for line training and the big prize being coming to fly for one of the big 3 Middle East carriers...

Question is... what is the incentive for EK to change T&C's for the better?

[Desdihold]

Well said Be careful ......

The Ryan air cancer is now alive and well at EK.

I flew with a previous Ryan air FO recently who was bi\ching about not being offered left seat DEC hereafter nine years of Ryan air time.

The funny thing is that he felt the system was unfair as someone junior to him at Ryan air entered as a DEC after he was hired.

Thanks Ryanair, do you guys also use KY jelly on your hair? (Uniform standards)

[gl69]

Laker some of the U.S. pilots have tried and failed to get hired back home. One guy has even failed the interviews at each of the Big 3 and others can't get an interview.
UAL needs 13,000 pilots over the next 15 years and they "only" received 11,700 applications. As anyone can see everyone that applied is going to get hired eventually. Will it be Emirates pilots? If I was in HR at any of those airlines I would want to hire EK pilots just to cost Emirates some money but if the pilots don't have college degrees or have a DUI (at least 3 EK pilots have that) they can forget about getting hired in the first part of the hiring boom. As I said anyone with a pulse and a pilots license is going to get hired eventually.
The Ryanair syndrome is alive and well in the sand which is regrettable. It is only going to get worse here and the sooner you get your seniority number back home the better of you and your health will be.

[InnocentBystander]

Actually make it three things:

1) Being home is being "home". There's a million things about this, but at the end you're home. That's worth some money to a lot of people. Not to put a too fine'a point on this; Florida is a million miles from Dubai... Just at the last annual leave going to the movies in Boca with Valet service, before movie dinner with cocktails and at the place service of food including a glass of wine/beer... Priceless. :) And not having to fight certain nationalities over their preferred use of cell phones. Even more.

2) Getting in at the majors with seniority protections is just that. Being protected. Warts and all, I realise, but still. Just because you did a missed approach that management didn't like is not a fireable offence. Period.

Peace of mind, in a lot of ways.

3) But still a lot of guys were getting seriously screwed by the regionals before coming to EK, especially Mesa and Eagle, I can understand their hesitation to get back into the grind of being at the bottom of the seniority list and the wrong people being protected... But then again the right one's were being protected as well!

[Alconguin Crusader]

Every single American who leaves EK and goes back to the U.S. talks about this invisible weight that is lifted off their shoulders. They didn't know they had this pressure while they were working in the Middle East but it is a tremendous weight that is gone and they feel so much better for leaving.
That in itself has to be worth more than a little bit of coin.
I think some of the Regional guys think the majors treat their pilots just like the Regionals do. Nothing could be further from the truth. Any Legacy or Major in the world is the pinnacle of the profession. Emirates is most definitely not in that category.

[TransitCheck]

Guys left the regionals in the US to come to EK because it was an increase in pay and a better lifestyle at the time or they were furloughed. Most pilots in civilian progression in the US did come through the regionals at one point or another. Unfortunately, when hiring stagnated over the last 10-20 years in the US some got stuck flying RJs for an extended period of time. They were then accused of "lowering the bar".....some chose to vote with their feet came to EK for the promise of better pay and lifestyle. It really has nothing to do with DUI's, records, or child support for nearly all who came from the regionals. Some of us even left the states from dirt bag cargo or 737 operators because of the stagnant hiring arena.

Fast forward to arriving at EK:

As an RJ pilot and even an American pilot at EK you are treated like a second class citizen as if you have no knowledge of aviation or flying. You are looked down on because EK considers you slack and your RT to be horrible and if you were on the RJ, your hours/experience are discriminated against by both fleet management and training just over a few ton difference from flying a 737. They don't tell you that in the road shows....just come with thick skin.

My advice: RUN FROM EK....and don't look back. If you have even a regional job in the US right now, stay and wait it out. EK management is crap, training is crap, and T&C are going to crap. It is not worth coming here anymore.

[Neptune Spear]

Great post Transit Check. So true!
It is funny we as RJ pilots get ****e on at EK because we came from the "lesser" ranks but the same AH giving us ****e came from the lesser ranks in their home countries as well. Not to many Trainers or line pilots came from their Legacy airlines in their countries.
So what is the difference. At least I was flying a RJ for Industry Standard wages for that type of airplane. Some of these Pompous Arses flew 737 and the like for considerable less than BA, SAS and AF make but still think their ****e does not stink. If that was the case they would have been hired at the good airlines.

[Oldaircrew]

Saying the training is crap is implying there is training! :E

[Payscale]

Someone signed your license....or are you an autodidact pilot?:sad:

[fliion]

gl69

Is that a wind up?

"DUIs, Court Orders, No College Degrees, Lack of Child payments"

So give us a ball park number out of the 250+ Americans - how many do you reckon?

f.

[Oldaircrew]

Payscale,

Not at all, just pointing out that every time you do a "training event", you are graded and, if found wanting, cautioned, warned and possibly(and to be fair after a protracted process) dismissed.

[nakbin330]

Wish I had a green card, a degree and was 20 years younger. I'd be outa this place in a flash! Good luck to the guys who want to go home. Don't feel you have to justify going to any of the plonkers who have to stay in the pit.

Let's face it, nobody likes it, really.

[TransitCheck]

Nabkin....if you were of the split tail version, had nice boobs, and put out I might sponsor you.....

....oh wait, I just listed most of the hiring criteria for a US major at the present time.

[Payscale]

Oldaircrew

You obviously dont work for EK(airbus) or you would know training event on transition courses are not graded except one or two progress checks...

and the rest of your email is actually not true. I know plenty of people who have been given many extra chances. I dont think you can honestly name one guy that has been let for for failing one event...handing over mate ;)

[Swansafa]

as an American pilot at EK you are treated like a second class citizen as if you have no knowledge of aviation or flying. You are looked down on because EK considers you slack and your RT to be horrible and if you were on the RJ, your hours/experience are discriminated against by both fleet management and training


Not sure about this claim of discrimination. I would expect that from some of the folk to the east of here but from a yank - a bit surprising.


Anyway in all fairness sorry to say it but the average yank IS slack and DOES have horrible RT or they wouldn't be known for it. If the horrible RT adheres to some sort of standard in the USA well fine, I suppose, but why bring with you it to a regulatory region on the other side of the world??? Why not just do it properly here?


Discriminated against because of your standards? Frankly I'm surprised you can still find anyone who gives a fcuk in this place.

[TransitCheck]

Wright Brothers - American
Boeing - American
First Aviation Regulatory Authority - American
NASA - American
Ames Dryden - American

80 percent of the worlds air traffic operating in a world of slack pilots in one of the safest environments....what a concept.....if slack means not briefing every possible scenario that might happen but probably won't, I will take the American way any day rather than wasting my time listening to a 15 minute dissertation of diarrhea from some "non-slack" self proclaimed EK house intellectual.

80 percent of the worlds air traffic using a system of RT that is considered "slang" by the copy cats....yet with very few issues that the rest of the world has. Charlie Charlie....is that stupid phrase slang?

Maybe the rest of the world is just overly anal retentive and over-complicating something that isn't so complex in order to stroke the proverbial ego of a few small pricked pilots. After all, look at all the stupid procedures we have at EK because someone had to try to prove to their boss that they were smarter than the rest.....when in all reality the addition was a pointless time consuming distraction. If you want a specific example ask any pilot from American Airlines or Delta that flies the 777 what their pre-flight checks consist of vs ours here.

Aviation was invented in the USA....it's done properly there and in most civilized parts of the world. NOT here.

The claim of discrimination against American RJ pilots here is absolutely true. Ask any of them.

[Whistlen Dan]

On a recent PPC, the Aussie capt "checked" by his "mate" crashed not once, but three times. CRASHED, and got all five scores. But the Aussie briefed the procedure into exhaustion, so it's all cool….

He lacked basic stick and rudder skills.

I got all threes…while being ridiculed for being a "Yank" while NOT crashing

One of the Ernest Gann books talks about the pilots that die with a microphone in hand instead of flying the damn plane!

[donpizmeov]

Did you write to your training manager and explain what happened? Won't get fixed unless you do something about it.

The don

[Oldaircrew]

Actually I do.

Every sim or line flight under "training" is graded. If you are doing an upgrade, 3 failures(2 or less)at any point during the course and you are back to being an FO.

Therefore, even a LOS, which should be considered as training, carries risk. You will also carry any "failure" with you throughout the course. So, get a 2 during LOS 1, you will redo the entire LOS. Get a another 2 during LOS 2, you will redo the entire LOS. Fast forward 3 months to your line release check, make a mistake which the TRE does not like, you're an FO.

It is that simple. Every training event is graded and carries risk!

[jimmyg]

Ernest Gann- "Fate is the Hunter" good read. It describes his years working as a pilot at American Airlines starting in Douglas DC-2s and DC-3s when civilian air transport was in its infancy, addressing the trappings for today's so called modern aviators ok:

[Whistlen Dan]

don, that will go over real well….

A junior FO goes against a 15-20 year TRE who is also "mates" with the managers.

He said vs. he said.

I get all 3's go home, another six months of pay. I only fight if I get a 2 and 90% of the time get it reversed to a 3 when the TRI/TRE fails to make a reference in the manuals.

inbred "mate" nepotism and nationalistic discrimination is real.

[BigGeordie]

I thought the Oztranauts invented aviation?:E

(Sits back and gets popcorn)

[falconeasydriver]

I thought the Oztranauts invented aviation?


No no no Big G, Wilbur and Orville did that, Bruce and the rest of his Ansett makes "Perfected" it. :E:E you salt and butter with your popcorn?

[ekwhistleblower]

You are nearly there, but missed their altruistic motives. The Oztranauts not only perfected it but did so "more for your benefit than mine"!

Prefer caramel myself unless the salt is also on my margarita glass!

[Curry Goat]

Whistlen Dan...Have to take your story with a few pounds of Salt. If you are getting solid 3's, with the occasional 2 that you have to argue yourself out of, you need to pull your socks up majorly. Stop blaming others for your lack of performance.

I have no horse in your race (neither OZ nor Yank, just a 3rd world grunt), but have come across the odd antipodean "character" in the training dept, but don't think I've ever been graded unfairly. Also flown with with lotsa yanks, some of whom have become friends, and there is a small percentage that need to do some work, or should not be here at all. Fact is, that percentage is probably the same for all nationalities represented here. A little advice for you: Don't believe everything you hear around here, and there is always 3 sides to a story.

CG

[thatwasclose]

I hail from the west side of the Atlantic south of the St.Lawrence river. I have been at the company long enough that I can just about take all the provident fund. When I was on the right seat I met some of those said Oz captns who briefed the **** at of everything and micro managed everyone. I did however meet some great Oz captns. I also flew with some **** captns from all over the world. Barring my initial training all the Aussie TREs I have had have all been very very good I have to confess. I may get a bit of crap for the next part but no antagonism is meant. White Americans say black Americans need to work harder , to speak better , to study more, to adapt to our world more. There is no racism it's just that blacks do not apply themselves enough. Black Americans sometimes blame the white Americans for their problems. Hmm, think I might just stop it there. Does anyone get my point ?

[olster]

Exactly, it's not simple - don't generalise, there is good and not - so - good from all over. The training dept is moving forward; e.g. the fairly recent removal of grading from most transition training.

[White Knight]

Whistlen Dan...Have to take your story with a few pounds of Salt. If you are getting solid 3's, with the occasional 2 that you have to argue yourself out of, you need to pull your socks up majorly. Stop blaming others for your lack of performance.

Funny you should say that... Same thoughts crossed my mind:D

[ironbutt57]

Ozzie think they invented everything...including aviation...I listened to hours on end of their bull****..I perceived it to be a defence mechanism..."shonky FAA licence" etc...etc...whatever turns their clock..insignificant folks really in the grand scheme of life..

[fliion]

Let's face it - there's good and bad from all nationalities.

I've always been treated fairly by training with one exception - he is neither Yank nor Oz and is THE guy who is always mentioned. Got my 3 which is all that mattered with said Skygod.

f.

[Payscale]

Oldaircrew

Yes you are right. Line training and upgrade are graded. I wrote transition training is not graded.
Upgrade training has to be graded in my opinion. With regards to how many fails you can have i think that is up to the managers. A mate of mine failed his first attempt. The story he told and the story I was told by someone else were miles apart...
You know the old story...would you let your children fly with this guy?

[donpizmeov]

I would when they misbehave Payscale.

A check of the seniors list doesn't show many permanent FOs, so I guess the vast majority pass command course. So is it really that bad? A lot of the pressure on course is self imposed, as there is a whole lot riding on a good result.

The don

[GA Button]

Sorry lads but it was the English who invented flying. We also invented Yanks and Aussies :-)

[main_dog]

We also invented Yanks and Aussies

Well done, that. :D

I also blame you Brits for Indian bureaucracy :}

[GA Button]

They wouldn't be like that if we still ran the place. Colonials always get uppity when you give them their country back.

[Swansafa]

You also invented rugby which the kiwis, aussies and saffers perfected for you. By the look of it, soon even the yanks and canucks will be helping you out there! ;)